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afroakuma
2009-01-14, 02:48 PM
Alrighty, the game is afoot!

The challenge: Bring your toughest party of four, at any level from 1 to 20. Receive a homebrewed opponent to challenge them.

The object: To assess the difficulty of homebrewed monsters against a reasonably optimized party.


Rules

Battles
• Battles take place in bright illumination derived from a light source that cannot damage any creature.

• Battles take place on an infinite, featureless horizontal plane at an encounter distance of 75 ft.

• The battle terrain is considered favorable to any ability or effect dependent on the terrain.

• The battle is ended when one side has been completely incapacitated. This means death, petrification, imprisonment, soul trapped or banished back to plane of origin, where applicable.

• All buffs initiate at the start of the battle for duration purposes. You have no actual prep time and no allies beyond those that are class features (mount, familiar, animal companion).

Characters
• Use any WotC sourcebook for 3.X edition Dungeons & Dragons. Note non-core sources used and what was sourced.

• Items based on WBL.

• You have no animals in your inventory. That is all.

• Party should consist of a mixture of roles: primary attacker, primary supporter, primary caster and skillmonkey, as an example.

DM Fiat
• With the exception of spells and abilities that specifically reference a non-core monster, only creatures from the MM I are valid selections for spells and abilities.

• Possession of more than one nightstick does not confer additional turning attempts.

• Decide ahead of combat if combat prep is to take place. If one side does it, both sides do it.

• The 'damage based on weights of falling objects' table is disregarded.

• The incantatrix prestige class is unavailable.

• No extraplanar agency is paying any attention to you unless you contact other plane, commune etc. in which case only the agency so contacted will devote any thought to you, for the duration of the effect only, and only in the manner stipulated by the effect.

• A roll of one, even if modified by bonuses or specific effects that would determine it to be some other number, is still not the highest number on anything but a d1.

Procedure
• If interested, post a brief summary of your party including sourcebooks referenced. You will be allocated a monster based on your party's level.

• If you don't have the time to run the trial yourself, you may post your party's stats (via character sheet or forum statblock) and offer others the chance to run the combat.

• If you have run the trial, please return a brief report indicating what happened during the battle, the final outcome and your thoughts on the challenge (or lack thereof).

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 06:57 PM
Alrighty, now that the rules are up, who still wants to play? :smallamused:

Fax Celestis
2009-01-14, 07:11 PM
Hokay, lessee. I'm interested. I've got a party of four (at varying ECLs at the moment, but I can up or down them to any ECL you like. It'd be easiest for me to go to ECL 12, though). They are as follows:

Astraea Theodosia, Silverbrow Human Dragonfire Adept (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=62) (currently ECL 10; most of this character appears in Dragon Magic).
Illumina Mitternacht, Human Ghost Hexblade (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=305) (currently ECL 7; using the Ghost racial class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) on the WotC website but removing the (arguably broken) Rejuvenation ability; Hexblade is in CWar, but most of her feats are from Libris Mortis).
Nephele Nyx Ilithya, Half-Fey Human Spellthief (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=5) (Currently ECL 12; Half-Fey is in Fiend Folio, Spellthief is in CAdv, and her feats are from CScn and CMage. Most wands are from core or from the Spell Compendium).
Silence Mordekai, Human Shadowcaster/Shadow Adept (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=403) (currently ECL 9; Shadowcaster is in ToM, Shadow Adept is in PGtF, and all of her feats are from either book; this assumes that Shadowcaster can qualify for the Shadow Adept PrC; preferably, this would use a "refresh" mechanic: spend a full round in concentration to refresh a "tier" of spells (either Initiate, Apprentice, or Master)).

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 07:19 PM
The party averages to ECL 9/10. Did you want to standardize them to somewhere in that region, or just go with what you currently have? Either way should be fine.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-14, 07:25 PM
I'd like to normalize them. Where would you like them normalized to?

arguskos
2009-01-14, 07:26 PM
I'll be producing something for this here shortly (I'm currently working on a Campaign Journal for my current Expedition to Castle Ravenloft game). Probably in the ECL 7-9 range.

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 07:30 PM
Fax: Normalize to ECL 10.

Combat: One Alxialut (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4952677&postcount=1) EL 10.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-14, 07:33 PM
A few things:

1) What if you have a guaranteed method of detection outside of 75ft? Like Mindsight 100ft, or Blindsense 200ft or something?

Obviously if the creature can avoid those, that's cool, but since like 99.9% of all monsters can't avoid Blindense, just thought I'd ask.

2) Two PrCs only? Is there any real reason for this?

3) The Divine Metamagic one, isn't DM fiat, Divine Metamagic was errataed to require you to have the feat (and to only work with one specific feat as well.)

4) MM I only. Way to take all the fun out of everything.

5) Why not just limit Nightsticks to not stacking? Last I heard that was at least as valid an interpretation as them stacking, and would remove the concern about every 14,000gp being another Persisted Spell.

6) Are the previous level ranges still in effect?

Fax Celestis
2009-01-14, 07:35 PM
I'll get that set up ASAP.

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 07:39 PM
1) Essentially you've all been teleported in at that distance. Some monsters would likely find you at large range as well; this way, everyone knows all at once. It cuts away the bias introduced by a surprise round.

2) To allow for optimization without being able to find too many wacky combinations of supreme power.

3) Some people don't know it. Some people choose to ignore it. But you're right; I can remove that one.

4) No Sarrukhs means no Pun-Pun.

5) The way I've seen it, the concept of a nightstick is specifically that it grants the power to turn undead, whereas the concept of divine metamagic is taking your daily limit of allotted positive energy and channeling it into divine spells. You're suggesting I allow clerics the effects of one nightstick only? If so, I see no harm in that.

6) Level ranges now 1-20.

PS: Were you at all amused by the section regarding extraplanar attention? Also, if you are familiar (and I suspect you may be) with any other uber-optimization loopholes, let me know.

Eldariel
2009-01-14, 07:49 PM
I suggest you just make Divine characters use their inherent Turning-attempts only for DMM and other divine feats (so only the base 3 + attempts derived from stats + attempts derived from feats; this simply stops the use of items to fuel them). That keeps the ability honest, while still making it useful for those who're willing to invest in it.

It also removes the need for arbitrary limitations on how items can be used; for example, Reliquary Holy Symbol [MiC Pg. 120] could also be used so that you wear a new one for each Persist thus effectively making Persisting cost 4 turnings instead of 7; not exactly as powerful as stacked Nightsticks, but stupid regardless. Persisting is plenty powerful without using items to fuel it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-14, 07:52 PM
Fax: Normalize to ECL 10.

Combat: One Alxialut (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4952677&postcount=1) EL 10.

That's one mighty cheezy critter. DimDoor as a SLA at will, Force Push which knocks opponents back as a move action, Charm Aura?

However, it has a few problems, in regards to Fax's team.

Dragonfire Adept can play the range game well, and it only has 75 hit points. If it's got a Silver or White Dragon heretage, this could make him immune to a lot of the cold-based attacks.

Can a Spellthief steal SLA's? If so, this could prove an interesting encounter.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-14, 07:58 PM
1) Essentially you've all been teleported in at that distance. Some monsters would likely find you at large range as well; this way, everyone knows all at once. It cuts away the bias introduced by a surprise round.

Well, CR is heavily dependent (or should be) on the likelihood of them getting a surprise round, so that should probably be included in calculating CR. But I was just saying why not have them be detected at the range they would be detected, but it's cool either way.


2) To allow for optimization without being able to find too many wacky combinations of supreme power.

I've never heard of a combination of Supreme power that came from PrC dipping. I've heard of good optimization that involves taking levels in one PrC until you can qualify for another one, after which you take all the levels in that PrC, and then start taking levels in a third PrC.

I've never seen a PrC limit which helped anything in any game. I've seen characters who literally have 2-3 levels in 5-6 PrCs that were played in a game and no more or less powerful.


4) No Sarrukhs means no Pun-Pun.

No, Sarrukhs means no Pun-Pun, no Arrow Demon means no Cleric Archer, no Chronotyryn means Wizards can't do what they actually do in game, no Shadow Golem means no immunities gained through shapechange, even though immunities are always gained through Shapechange.

If you just want no Pun-Pun say no Pun-Pun.

If only Core MM I creatures are allowed, then can I use the RAW and retarded rule that spellcasting is EX, and just give everyone Cleric casting too?


6) Level ranges now 1-20.

Probably make a level 20 party, and since you went through all the work of creating the monsters, I can fully stat out all the characters.


PS: Were you at all amused by the section regarding extraplanar attention? Also, if you are familiar (and I suspect you may be) with any other uber-optimization loopholes, let me know.

Well, I am familiar with several uber-optimization loopholes, but in the process of banning 50% of what I consider par-for the course builds, you managed to get all the ones I can think of off hand, except polymorph granting the spellcasting of whatever you turn into, which I find horribly stupid.

Also, the extraplanar thing didn't really bring anything to me as too funny, except that I am lead to believe that most of our enemies are extraplanar beings.

Am I missing anything in particular?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-14, 08:05 PM
1) Essentially you've all been teleported in at that distance. Some monsters would likely find you at large range as well; this way, everyone knows all at once. It cuts away the bias introduced by a surprise round.

2) To allow for optimization without being able to find too many wacky combinations of supreme power.

3) Some people don't know it. Some people choose to ignore it. But you're right; I can remove that one.

4) No Sarrukhs means no Pun-Pun.

5) The way I've seen it, the concept of a nightstick is specifically that it grants the power to turn undead, whereas the concept of divine metamagic is taking your daily limit of allotted positive energy and channeling it into divine spells. You're suggesting I allow clerics the effects of one nightstick only? If so, I see no harm in that.

6) Level ranges now 1-20.

PS: Were you at all amused by the section regarding extraplanar attention? Also, if you are familiar (and I suspect you may be) with any other uber-optimization loopholes, let me know.

Sent you a PM detailing some of the more obtuse types of cheeze, including THE Hulking Hurler build, King of Smack, and Bag of Puppies

Mushroom Ninja
2009-01-14, 08:10 PM
Hmm, I guess I'll throw together a party.

I'll have it up at some (unspecified) point in the near future.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-14, 08:10 PM
That's one mighty cheezy critter. DimDoor as a SLA at will, Force Push which knocks opponents back as a move action, Charm Aura?

I don't think it's a very cheezy creature.

Charm Aura is only when not engaged, and I'm pretty sure this counts as engaged.

Being able to use move actions for real effects is generally prohibited in most of D&D. Bu Force Push isn't that terrible, and it makes up for the fact that unlike most outsiders, it has no quickened SLAs.

Also, Dimension Door at will is not even close to cheezy, most Demons/Devils/Archons have Greater Teleport at will, and that's much better, especially with a move action push attack. Dimension Door prevents any further actions, so no Force push, just take a full attack.

Draz74
2009-01-14, 08:11 PM
Sent you a PM detailing some of the more obtuse types of cheeze, including THE Hulking Hurler build, King of Smack, and Bag of Puppies

... huh. I didn't think King of Smack qualified for this kind of company. I thought it wasn't so much better than most other highly-optimized melee builds (e.g. Homer the Flaming Bowling Ball of Doom).

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 08:12 PM
Well, CR is heavily dependent (or should be) on the likelihood of them getting a surprise round, so that should probably be included in calculating CR. But I was just saying why not have them be detected at the range they would be detected, but it's cool either way.

Judging by the horrible swing it took just by a standard initiative round, I'm worried that it may devalue the trials to add surprise rounds.


I've never heard of a combination of Supreme power that came from PrC dipping. I've heard of good optimization that involves taking levels in one PrC until you can qualify for another one, after which you take all the levels in that PrC, and then start taking levels in a third PrC.

I've never seen a PrC limit which helped anything in any game. I've seen characters who literally have 2-3 levels in 5-6 PrCs that were played in a game and no more or less powerful.

We'll see how it goes.


No, Sarrukhs means no Pun-Pun, no Arrow Demon means no Cleric Archer

That was certainly another consideration at the time.


no Chronotyryn means Wizards can't do what they actually do in game

I don't follow.


no Shadow Golem means no immunities gained through shapechange, even though immunities are always gained through Shapechange.

Most trials won't even get high enough for shapechange. If they do, I'm sure there are other strategies available.


Probably make a level 20 party, and since you went through all the work of creating the monsters, I can fully stat out all the characters.

That will be good. I'm curious on some of the more powerful ones.


Well, I am familiar with several uber-optimization loopholes, but in the process of banning 50% of what I consider par-for the course builds

You consider that cleric a par-for-the-course build; I consider a PC with 16 attacks at level 12 to be overpowered. There's little point running trials against a character who can melt the face off of anything that doesn't live in a prismatic sphere.


you managed to get all the ones I can think of off hand, except polymorph granting the spellcasting of whatever you turn into, which I find horribly stupid.

Come again?


Also, the extraplanar thing didn't really bring anything to me as too funny, except that I am lead to believe that most of our enemies are extraplanar beings.

The gag was based on the idea of Pazuzu showing up because someone called his name. The fiat ruling is that your characters are utterly unimportant to the rest of the universe.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-14, 08:12 PM
and Bag of Puppies

Is there even a way to make Bag of Puppies work for anything?

Or is that a reference to Greater Consumptive Field?

wadledo
2009-01-14, 08:15 PM
Oh, yea.
I'm totally in on this.

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 08:16 PM
Regarding the supposed cheese:

What everyone else said. I determined that a force push took no greater movement than opening a door, which is a move action.

Also, the original trial I ran on him at EL 10 saw him die hard and fast. Force pushes barely kept him alive long enough to pummel the wizard with magic missiles.

Eldariel
2009-01-14, 08:21 PM
I'd disallow Metamorphic Transfer-feat, which among others allows early Beholder Mage qualifications (for standard no-LA characters) and stupid crap like that. Also, Dweomerkeeper is a fairly abuse Cleric PrC that allows, among others, Wishes and Limited Wishes with no XP costs. Shadowcraft Mage is similarly stupid allowing for free Miracles (albeit it's a bit worse without Incantatrix, but there're other solid complements).

Really, I suppose the better way to deal with those is stating that nothing negates the XP cost of any given spell, even if you can gain it as a supernatural ability or it's actually a Silent Image. And yea, Polymorph-line granting spellcasting is dumb. Also, second Polymorph Any Object making the first one permanent regardless of the form generates all kinds of issues. Just either banning PAO (since it does dumb crap) or making it work based on creature's non-magical type et al. would probably be better. Just few off the top of my head.

Likewise, the fact that Planar Bindings have no limits so you could theorethically have any number of them active to generate an outsider army (with no chance of failing the opposed checks) is a bit dumb. Gate can be likewise abusive (the Gated creatures are forced to obey you so you can just order them to lower their resistances and fail their next save and Mindrape them to planeshift to you and be your loyal servants for the rest of eternity once Gate ends; a simple classic of generating an army of Outsider With Planeshift) and of course, Candle of Invocation is total bull**** as someone left out the XP cost of the spell (it opens up approximately a hundred infinite Wish tricks). Wish also should have a hard limit on the price of the magic item it can provide.

Also, you may want to consider banning at least Celerity, Persistent Consumptive Fields (they can give you infinite CL easily), Leadership (it's just stupid combined with anything if optimizing, and tons of bookkeeping to boot) and Craft Contingent Spell since they make it pretty much impossible for the caster to be harmed on certain levels (especially since Favor of the Martyr can be used to negate the Daze-effect, and then there's the Quick Recovery/whatever-feat in Lords of Madness that allows you to always get a save vs. Daze).

Also, banning Hulking Hurler might be a prudent move as the PrC is based on carrying capacity which isn't designed to be used as a damage source (even if a caster with enough preparation would beat one, being able to deal a billion points of area effect damage isn't really sensible), and is really easy to increase. Alternatively, you could just trust the players' judgment on what's too good and work from there; optimizers aware of the means to do stupid stuff are sensible enough not to actually do it in games too.


Also, I'm going to work a level 12 party; probably Archivist, Wizard, Druid and Artificer just to get a bit of the higher tier testing too. It'll take me a day or two though, especially with the spell lists and crossreferencing related optimization work, but I should get 'em together soon enough. The roles would be Archivist Archer (plus divine support), Wizard (well, obviously arcane support), Druid Tank (plus divine) and Artificer skillmonkey (and all kinds of support + cheap gear).

Fax Celestis
2009-01-14, 08:22 PM
Okay, my party's ready all but for their gear: gear is about the only thing I can't do without my books. But, Nephele's a bit over par, Silence is about on par, Astraea IS on par...it's just Illumina that's getting the short end of the stick. I'm going to make her longsword +2 and her armor +3 (from +1 and +2, respectively) and call it even.

Do me a favor and check over "Fax's Angels" sheets so you can make sure I didn't miss anything, and we can get going.

Mystral
2009-01-14, 08:24 PM
I've got a few questions:

What about Attributes and Hitpoints? Am I allowed to pick the spells with knowledge about the monster I am about to fight? Am I allowed to pool the starting money of the party together so one guy can have a little more, one guy a little less?

My party would be as follows (rough scetch, Partylevel 6)

Batman: Human Wizard 6 (Focused on control and buffs)
Meatshield: Dwarven Knight 6 (AC and Goading, frontline defence)
Striker: Human Warlock 6 (Flies around and shoots black death rays of facemelting)
Healbot: Human Cleric 6 (Focused on buffs, secondary defense)

Books used: Core, Complete Series, PH2

Is that to rough of a scetch? :o

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 08:25 PM
I'm pretty confident that most people will be here for the trials, not to try to push the madness as far as possible despite the restrictive rules.

As far as the Celerity tree, I'm going to leave it in, but with the proviso (this will be added) that the time cost incurred by the spell (be it dazed or what have you) cannot be avoided.

Draz74
2009-01-14, 08:25 PM
Alternatively, you could just trust the players' judgment on what's too good and work from there; optimizers aware of the means to do stupid stuff are sensible enough not to actually do it in games too.

Yeah, there's enough cheese strategies out there that I'd recommend this ... except that I'm not sure all optimizers *are* that sensible, and defining "how much is too much" is tough. I think the examples Afro has given are actually a good start, but they need to be supplemented by an explicit statement "anything similarly cheesy to the stuff I've banned is out too."

Blood_Lord
2009-01-14, 08:26 PM
I don't follow.

Extra actions. Of course, it also prevents them from using Planar Binding spells the way they should, But Planar Binding even in Core is as game breaking as Pun-Pun.


That will be good. I'm curious on some of the more powerful ones.

I don't even know if it's possible for me to make level 20 builds this hamstrung.

Being forced to take 9 levels of Wizard for some builds is patently ridiculous, since no one ever would. Same for Cleric, but I can at least fill it in with crap levels of a PrC that don't grant anything, so it at least looks less bad.


You consider that cleric a par-for-the-course build; I consider a PC with 16 attacks at level 12 to be overpowered. There's little point running trials against a character who can melt the face off of anything that doesn't live in a prismatic sphere.

Actually, I don't consider that build par-for the course, I consider it face meltingly awesome, but that's entirely because of DMM Persist, and nothing to do with PrCs. Also, that number was wrong, I forgot that Recitation gives an extra attack like haster, so actually 20 attacks.

What I consider par for the course is having a build like:

Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Divine Oracle 4/Paragnostic Apostle 1/Contemplative 10 (or Contemplative 5, X 5.)

Or Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/PrC 10/PrC 4

Or Wizard 3/Master Specialist 6/IotSFV 7/Archmage 4.


Come again?

Based on the definitions in the MM, spellcasting would have to be an EX ability, granted by polymorph It's also listed as such in later MMs. This means anyone could be polymorphed into a caster, then cast all their spells long lasting spells, then be polymorphed to a form better suited to taking advantage of those spells.

You can also polymorph yourself into something that can cast Polymorph, use all the other spells, then polymorph yourself into something else, ect. It take a lot of work, but some people swear buy it.

I personally think it devalues the game when anyone who can make a DC 20 UMD check can cast 9th level Cleric and Wizard spells.

Damn, while I was typing that I thought of another abuse but forgot it. I don't think that one had anything to do with Polymorph.

EDIT: I actually thought of a couple, but Eld-covered the ones I thought of.

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 08:28 PM
Fax: A little over or under should be fine. Where are the sheets, by the way?


I've got a few questions:

What about Attributes and Hitpoints? Am I allowed to pick the spells with knowledge about the monster I am about to fight?

You likely won't be allocated a monster until I've seen the party, so technically no. I won't be gunning for you with specific monsters, though.

As far as it being a practical matter, the answer is also no. I would question how your party survived to the level they are at if one of your sorcerer's few spells was kill monster x, and his little dog, too.


Am I allowed to pool the starting money of the party together so one guy can have a little more, one guy a little less?

A little leeway, yes. Not much, though. I'm going to say, 1/8 WBL can be transferred from one party member to another, once only. Sound reasonable?

Party sounds good; let me know when you have a more complete idea.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-14, 08:33 PM
Astraea Theodosia, Silverbrow Human Dragonfire Adept 10 (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=62)
Illumina Mitternacht, Human Ghost 3/Hexblade 6/Ephemeral Exemplar 1 (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=305)
Nephele Nyx Ilithya, Half-Fey Human Spellthief 8 (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=5)
Silence Mordekai, Human Shadowcaster 5/Shadow Adept 5 (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=403)

And of course it is NOW that I realize that Astraea has like NO gear. Forgot I never finished that sheet. So I'll take care of that tonight and we can begin.

wadledo
2009-01-14, 08:35 PM
afroakuma: do you need any help?
I'd love to run a few of these(and check my own homebrew at the same time).
Once it gets all together, of course.

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 08:37 PM
Extra actions. Of course, it also prevents them from using Planar Binding spells the way they should, But Planar Binding even in Core is as game breaking as Pun-Pun.

Yes, because arcane casting isn't bad enough without pulling off multiple spells per round. There is a very basic hamstring for planar binding cheese, which I'll now go put there. It should really be there anyway.


I don't even know if it's possible for me to make level 20 builds this hamstrung.

I removed the part about only 2 PrCs.

And something tells me that people were playing the game when most of this stuff wasn't available anyway. :smalltongue:


Being forced to take 9 levels of Wizard for some builds is patently ridiculous, since no one ever would. Same for Cleric, but I can at least fill it in with crap levels of a PrC that don't grant anything, so it at least looks less bad.

I don't follow. And 1) I would, but I rarely min/max, let alone optimize; 2) then again, I'm a DM, not a player.


Actually, I don't consider that build par-for the course, I consider it face meltingly awesome, but that's entirely because of DMM Persist

That went without saying. Glad you felt it to be... above the line.


I personally think it devalues the game when anyone who can make a DC 20 UMD check can cast 9th level Cleric and Wizard spells.

I'm right there with you.

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 08:39 PM
afroakuma: do you need any help?

That's basically what this thread is doing. :smallwink:


I'd love to run a few of these(and check my own homebrew at the same time).
Once it gets all together, of course.

The intention is that one tests one's own party against the monster. I can run the monster when I have time, but some people prefer independent testing.

TheCountAlucard
2009-01-14, 08:39 PM
The battle is ended when one side has been completely incapacitated. This means death, petrification, imprisonment, soul trapped or banished back to plane of origin, where applicable.

What if you make friends with them? One would think that that would bring about an end to the battle...

Draz74
2009-01-14, 08:44 PM
What if you make friends with them? One would think that that would bring about an end to the battle...

I think that counts too, as long as you're using some other way than Diplomancy (the easiest rule of them all to break!) to accomplish this friendship.

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 08:46 PM
Check out Fax's assigned monster. That's the last thing you want to do, because that essentially means that it's won.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-01-14, 09:13 PM
How are stat and HP generation working?

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 09:15 PM
For the party or the monsters?

Probably the standard fashion for characters; roll them out.

The monsters will take average hp or rolled at the player's discretion.

Character stats - go for 34 point buy if you feel the need to be consistent. The monsters are operating at 11/11/11/10/10/10.

Draz74
2009-01-14, 09:17 PM
You know, the CR system was designed for standard stat generation ... 34-point buy is considerably higher than standard stat generation. It's nothing but part of optimizers' addiction to more-powerful characters, and has no place in a CR-determination exercise. (Great fun in other exercises, though. :smallamused:)

IMHO, 28-point buy is the closest to typical results generated by the standard stats-rolling system.

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 09:26 PM
*shrug* I don't particularly care what method. 32-point, 28-point, go to town.

All 18's, probably not so great.

Keld Denar
2009-01-14, 09:37 PM
Sorry to post annoying questions, but are there any alignment restrictions on the party? I'm thinking of a build that uses Blackguard (yes, Blackguard...lol), but I could easily use a different melee build that doesn't. I'm just curious.

Also, what say ye on the official Rebalanced Hexblade? The one done by the dev who origionally made the class. Legal or not?

Eldariel
2009-01-14, 09:38 PM
For the party or the monsters?

Probably the standard fashion for characters; roll them out.

The monsters will take average hp or rolled at the player's discretion.

Character stats - go for 34 point buy if you feel the need to be consistent. The monsters are operating at 11/11/11/10/10/10.

May I instead use averages for character and 32pb? That's how I always build my highpowered characters.

EDIT: Board lag caused this to be late, so it appears this has already been answered. Alright, I'll make 32pb average HP characters.

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 09:53 PM
Sorry to post annoying questions, but are there any alignment restrictions on the party? I'm thinking of a build that uses Blackguard (yes, Blackguard...lol), but I could easily use a different melee build that doesn't. I'm just curious.

Also, what say ye on the official Rebalanced Hexblade? The one done by the dev who origionally made the class. Legal or not?

Do as you will. I'm more concerned about cheese than about minor detail.

Keld Denar
2009-01-14, 10:37 PM
What about leadership? Only gonna take it once with 1 PC, but kinda need it for a buff/support type cohort. Is that game?

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 10:45 PM
I'll say yes contingent on it being a humanoid cohort, not a magical beast or outsider.

Keld Denar
2009-01-14, 10:49 PM
I'll say yes contingent on it being a humanoid cohort, not a magical beast or outsider.

Excellent!

Rei_Jin
2009-01-14, 11:03 PM
I'm looking to put forward a party for this one, probably have it up some time in the next 24 hours, level 20

So, 34 point buy, standard DMG Wealth by level, hitdie taken at half+1

Melee Machine: Half-Orc Barbarian/Unarmed Swordsage/Fist of the Forest/Frostrager
Skill Monkey: Whispergnome Ninja/Shadowdancer
Blaster: Draconic Human Warmage/Rainbow Servant
Healer: Gold Dwarf Cleric/Ordained Champion/Knight of the Raven

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-14, 11:13 PM
Is there even a way to make Bag of Puppies work for anything?

Or is that a reference to Greater Consumptive Field?

Bag of Puppies + Great Cleave + Sweeping Strike (Warmind level 5 class ability) = insane numbers of attacks.

Basically, with Sweeping Strike, if you hit a foe with a melee weapon, you get a free shot on another foe whom you also threaten. This is not an AoO, and specifically even works on Cleave/Great Cleave bonus attacks.

So, I hit a puppy. I get a free hit on my opponent. But I killed the puppy, so Great Cleave, which I use to kill another puppy, which gives me a free shot on my opponent. But I killed that puppy too, so I Great Cleave and...

Basically, the number of critters in the back is the number of free attacks you get. Do this with a bag of holding full of rats, and that's a LOT of free attacks.

Rei_Jin
2009-01-14, 11:19 PM
So that's the updated version of the 3.0 Whirlwind+Sack of Puppies+Great Cleave combo eh?

I was wondering if that was ever going to come back.

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 11:19 PM
Rei Jin: Sounds great. I've got just the beastie in mind.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-14, 11:27 PM
I'm working on a level 11 party, which should be up probably tomorrow some time. I won't get into any extreme cheese, although it will be a fairly strong party.

One question:
• All buffs initiate at the start of the battle for duration purposes. You have no actual prep time and no allies beyond those that are class features (mount, familiar, animal companion).
Even at level 11, there are some spells that would have a duration of 22 hours, effectively all day long. There are also some spells with a duration of at least one day. Do these count as being on, or are they somehow stripped of spells they cast every day to make sure they never go down?

This will affect how I build my party, because during most campaigns, you're going to cast your Extended Hours/level spells at the beginning of the day, which will then last all day long. However, if no buffs are allowed, then there is no point to Extended Spell feat (at least not for hours/duration spells)

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 11:31 PM
Consider yourself to have cast whatever buffs you need at the start of the day or whatever; that statement is to reinforce those buffs that have a duration in rounds. You can and do cast buffs, but anything you want to pre-buff with is cast beforehand without hurting its duration.

No actual prep time means that spells that take ten minutes to cast :smallwink: will have to be cast during the battle.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-14, 11:38 PM
Consider yourself to have cast whatever buffs you need at the start of the day or whatever; that statement is to reinforce those buffs that have a duration in rounds. You can and do cast buffs, but anything you want to pre-buff with is cast beforehand without hurting its duration.

No actual prep time means that spells that take ten minutes to cast :smallwink: will have to be cast during the battle.

Thanks, I'll get started!

Eldariel
2009-01-15, 12:29 AM
If I gave a character Mercantile Background, would about ~25% increase in the WBL be fair? The feat allows selling items for 75% of their list price instead of 50%, and buying one item per month at 75% the total price (which I'll account for in the price of some items). Assuming that the party sells around 70% of the found good, it would give about 25% extra.

Adumbration
2009-01-15, 12:35 AM
As of this moment, I have two characters conveniently at level 5 and ready - a Swordsage and a Warlock. I also have a Totemist, leveled at 8 and without items.

As soon as I have enough time, I'll finish up the Totemist to level 5 as well and go make a Barbarian meatshield or something.

Do you have a CR 5 I could test at some point? My people are not exactly the top of the optimisation, but I think they will suffice.

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 12:46 AM
If I gave a character Mercantile Background, would about ~25% increase in the WBL be fair? The feat allows selling items for 75% of their list price instead of 50%, and buying one item per month at 75% the total price (which I'll account for in the price of some items). Assuming that the party sells around 70% of the found good, it would give about 25% extra.

Snap ruling says yes; I just hope it doesn't become commonly used.

Adumbration: I have CR 5s, yes.

Eldariel
2009-01-15, 01:01 AM
Snap ruling says yes; I just hope it doesn't become commonly used.

Adumbration: I have CR 5s, yes.

Well, I am going for highpowered build anyways, it should be ok (at the present, it seems like Marshal 1/Artificer 11, Wizard 12 with some PrCs I haven't decided on yet, Druid 12 and Cloistered Cleric 1/Archivist 11 [since I banned items fueling DMM, the CC dip was the only way I could find enough feats to make it work]). Amusingly enough, the only character that goes for PrCs is the Wizard, although Archivist would PrC out on level 13 and Artificer would late PrC.

The party's average ECL will be 12; I'm expecting something around CR 16 to make for a 50/50 fight.

Talic
2009-01-15, 01:29 AM
I'll build a party for this no prob :). Gimme a day or two.

Keld Denar
2009-01-15, 01:35 AM
I'm doing ECL 11 as well, got 3 characters pretty well done, and the 4th pretty much planned out.

Party consists of:
Dwarven - Rng1/Ftr2/Barb2/Deepwarden2/ExoticWM2/OccultSlayer2
Grey Elf - Wiz6/Mindbender1/Fatespinner4
Human - Cleric3/ChurchInquiz2/RSoP5 (neglecting alignment stupidity)
Human - Bard4/Warblade7
Cohort Human - Marshall1/Sorcalator8

All are NG and worship Pelor (PRAISE BE THE SKYFATHER!)

Built using 32 PB with 1/2 HD +1 for every level after the first (thats the way Living Greyhawk did it) No crafting abuse either.

Looking pretty badass too, I've got most of my daily buffs recorded, along with my standard 1st and 2nd round combat tactics for each character. I'm doing them up on regular character sheets, not in any program. Could I scan the character sheets and email them when done?

Eldariel
2009-01-15, 02:18 AM
With so many ECL ~10 parties, I'm raising my ECL a bit to 14. I do hope you've got encounters for that?

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 08:08 AM
With so many ECL ~10 parties, I'm raising my ECL a bit to 14. I do hope you've got encounters for that?

Yep.

Keld: Yeah, you can use my email link.

So far we have:

ECL 5: Adumbration
ECL 10: Fax Celestis
ECL 11: Keld Denar, ShneekeyTheLost
ECL 14: Eldariel
ECL 20: Rei Jin, Blood_Lord

Adumbration
2009-01-15, 08:18 AM
Party so far:
Kenku Warlock. (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=20052) Note, I'm using this in an ongoing campaign, so even though I'm not going to change it in the sheet, I'll probably pick some other invocation instead of Entropic Warding.
Air goblin Swordsage, dualwielding. (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=12439) My hard-to-hit, Mr. DPS guy. Doubles as a sneak due to his great dex.
My totemist. (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=19449)Still looking for ways to empower him, at the moment he's mostly a meatshield. Crapload of HP and two primary natural attacks.

Still to do:
- Buy items for Totemist.
- Create a 4th character.

lord_khaine
2009-01-15, 08:24 AM
this sounds pretty funny, i think ill try and make a party consisting of psionic and ToB chars.

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 08:25 AM
Well, I do have a couple of psionic monsters, but chances are you'll get one without psionics.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-15, 10:33 AM
As there is already a CR 11 group, I will bump mine up to level 12. Stats being worked up now.

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 11:17 AM
Anyone know WBL for level 12 off the top of their heads? I'm AFDMG right now.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-15, 11:25 AM
Question about HP generation:

Do you want us to Max 1st level, then 1/2 HD for each additional (i.e. 6 on D12, 2 on D4, etc...) or what?

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 11:27 AM
You certainly may. Seems equitable to me.

lord_khaine
2009-01-15, 11:34 AM
i will try and make the psionic/ToB team lv 8 then.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-15, 12:22 PM
i will try and make the psionic/ToB team lv 8 then.

I thought he kind of wanted us to minimize the ToB stuff, since he wasn't very familiar with it.

Eldariel
2009-01-15, 12:31 PM
Anyone know WBL for level 12 off the top of their heads? I'm AFDMG right now.

88000gp / level 12 character.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-15, 01:40 PM
Astraea Theodosia, Silverbrow Human Dragonfire Adept 10 (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=62)
Illumina Mitternacht, Human Ghost 3/Hexblade 6/Ephemeral Exemplar 1 (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=305)
Nephele Nyx Ilithya, Half-Fey Human Spellthief 8 (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=5)
Silence Mordekai, Human Shadowcaster 5/Shadow Adept 5 (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=403)

Fax's Angels are ready for action.

RTGoodman
2009-01-15, 01:47 PM
So, is the plan to just have you give each "team" a monster, the person running the team plays out the encounter on their own time, and then they get back to you?

If that's how it is, well, I might actually have time for it. I don't know anything about high levels, but do you have anything CR 1-3 you want tested? If so, I may get back to you with a party. (Not sure about party composition yet, though.)

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-15, 03:11 PM
Work in process, but here you go so far:

Bob, the meat shield (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102981) (still statting out)
Pip, the skillmonkey (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102949) - Equipment and Skills still being worked on
Sam, the Arcane Caster (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102970)
Theo, the Support Person (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102982) (still statting out)

Standard buffs:
Every day, in the morning, the following buffs go off:

Greater Magic Weapon on both of Pip's weapons and Bob's weapon
Magic Vestment on Pip, Bob, and Theo
Resistance, Superior on everyone (+6 all saves) (Yes, this takes up *ALL* of Sam's 6th level slots)

All of these spells either have 24 hr duration, or a duration of Hours/level.

Still a LOT of work to go on these guys, but here's the basic concept:

Bob: trip/charge build. Designed to mix it up and lock it down
Pip: skillmonkey/TWF damage build. Designed to close and kill
Theo: Cleric Support Build. Designed to buff/heal/remove status effects
Sam: Arcane Caster.

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 03:25 PM
I thought he kind of wanted us to minimize the ToB stuff, since he wasn't very familiar with it.

Well, that was when I was running the parties. Now that I'm not, life is easy.

Fax: Excellent. Did you want to run that trial solo or should I operate the monster?

rtg: That's exactly the plan. I do have a few low level monsters to trial.

Shneekey: Also great.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-15, 03:36 PM
Fax: Excellent. Did you want to run that trial solo or should I operate the monster?

It'd be more effective if you opped the monster how you thought it should be opped, and I ran the party the way they were supposed to be ran, followed immediately by a reversal of roles (you run the party how you think, I run the monster how I think).

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 03:38 PM
Alright, well I'll have to run it through the boards for the moment. Let me know when you have some time.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-15, 03:44 PM
Today's slow at work. I can run it now, if'n you like.

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 03:54 PM
Alright: PBP Gamma Forum: Test Your Might, Fax's Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102295)

lord_khaine
2009-01-15, 03:57 PM
ok, my team Noneedforcorecasters are ready.

Dancer (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=1826) Swordsage/rogue
Corrund (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=1830) Wilder
Obsidian (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=1828) Monk/psychic warrior
Ruby (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=1827) Psion

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 04:02 PM
lord_khaine, looks good:

Combat:

Noneedforcasters vs. One Cheimothnes lamente (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5156909&postcount=28) (ECL 8)

Darth Stabber
2009-01-15, 04:35 PM
LVL 1 party
Half orc barbarian
Halfling Warlock
Human Dragon Shaman
Elan Psywar

Will stat out shortly

Keld Denar
2009-01-15, 04:46 PM
Gah, my characters are pretty much done, but Myth Weavers is being a doodoohead and not confirming my registration. Such frustration! I wants to make with the hack n slash too!

GO TEAM FAX! WE WHO ARE ABOUT TO DIE SALUTE YOU!

Fax Celestis
2009-01-15, 04:56 PM
GO TEAM FAX! WE WHO ARE ABOUT TO DIE SALUTE YOU!

...so the other guys are saluting? o_O

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 05:03 PM
Other guy. And he'll go down in a long, silly battle of attrition if I have my say. :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2009-01-15, 05:33 PM
...so the other guys are saluting? o_O

Sorry, I forgot my [Gladiator] [/Gladiator ] tags. Russel Crow would kill me.

And Fax, you better get your gals in gear, or you are never gonna get to this thing!

Oh, and MYTHWEAVERS FINALLY ACCEPTED MY REGISTRATION! Copying character sheets over now.

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 05:38 PM
:smallconfused: What are you talking about? The combat's already running.

Charlie's Fax's Angels are getting hashed at the moment; I expect they'll surround and kill pretty soon, though.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-15, 06:20 PM
Well, to be honest, my team is not one that does well against Constructs, considering most of Silence's repertoire is mind-affecting and most of Nephele's class features rely on Sneak Attack.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-15, 06:41 PM
:smallconfused: What are you talking about? The combat's already running.

Charlie's Fax's Angels are getting hashed at the moment; I expect they'll surround and kill pretty soon, though.

One of 'em got a Polar Ray to the face... that tends to hurt.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-15, 06:43 PM
Well, to be honest, my team is not one that does well against Constructs, considering most of Silence's repertoire is mind-affecting and most of Nephele's class features rely on Sneak Attack.

Wand of Golemstrike?

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 06:46 PM
Yeah, thankfully it can only pull that trick once.

It's the force effects that make it dangerous; they're just lucky that it's worried about using enchantments after its opening anti-air trick failed.

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 06:48 PM
BTW, anyone know the correct syntax for a multiple die roll with modifier? It didn't let me get away with it...

RTGoodman
2009-01-15, 06:58 PM
BTW, anyone know the correct syntax for a multiple die roll with modifier? It didn't let me get away with it...

Are you talking about something like 1d8 + 1d6 + 4? If so, I don't think you can do it all at once (or, at least, I haven't been able to in the past when I tried).

My party is slowly being built. It's gonna be an ECL 3 party, including a Goliath Fighter/Barbarian and maybe a Whisper Gnome Rogue. I don't know about my healer or arcanist, though - maybe a Cloistered Cleric and a Standard Wizard. Nothing uberoptimized, at any rate, but nothing terrible.

Eldariel
2009-01-15, 07:00 PM
afroakuma: I PMed you with regards to the possible issues in your die rolls. Your syntax is correct. Also, zgt is correct, it's impossible to include multiple dice of different sizes in the same roll; just gotta roll them in succession and add 'em up.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-15, 07:02 PM
Yeah, thankfully it can only pull that trick once.

It's the force effects that make it dangerous; they're just lucky that it's worried about using enchantments after its opening anti-air trick failed.

Honestly, I'm surprised it hasn't used it's Dimension Door at will SLA to pop somewhere obnoxiously far away, but within range of his Force Blast and force them to close all over again.

I'm also surprised that Fax's Invoker hasn't been laying out the ranged damage sooner.

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 07:06 PM
Does he have an invoker?

Dragonfire Adept, Spellthief, Shadow Mage thingy... dead girl...

Its Force Blast is limited to 30 ft., which is why it hasn't bothered. It may pop away, use heroism, then pop back and melee a bit if it becomes useful.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-15, 07:08 PM
Does he have an invoker?

Dragonfire Adept, Spellthief, Shadow Mage thingy... dead girl...

Its Force Blast is limited to 30 ft., which is why it hasn't bothered. It may pop away, use heroism, then pop back and melee a bit if it becomes useful.

Dragonfire Adept is an Invoker.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-15, 07:16 PM
Honestly, I'm surprised it hasn't used it's Dimension Door at will SLA to pop somewhere obnoxiously far away, but within range of his Force Blast and force them to close all over again.

I'm also surprised that Fax's Invoker hasn't been laying out the ranged damage sooner.

The DFA really wasn't in range before, otherwise I would have.

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 07:39 PM
He's lucky that cone of cold went off. Nephele was about to catch a Force Strike to the teeth again.

Of course, now they have to catch up with it.

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 07:43 PM
Alrighty, lurkers - discuss the violence!

Fax Celestis
2009-01-15, 07:53 PM
I was pretty hosed walking into this battle. I didn't have any of my potentially "all-day" buffs (mostly mage armor, but also endure exposure and some other potentials), nor did I have a frontliner capable of handling the creature. Normally, I think Illumina would have done better as a harrying tank except for her inability to affect the alxialut with her powers quickly enough as well as getting bashed with the one kind of effect against which her 50% miss chance doesn't apply: force.

Silence also could have done better: she was relying upon shadow evocation as nearly nothing else in her repertoire would affect a creature immune to mind-affecting abilities. For a moment, I was seriously considering casting a shadow divine power before I remembered that shadow evocation is arcane-only.

Nephele was pretty shafted from not being able to use nearly any of her abilities. The one wand she neglected to obtain was a wand of golemstrike, which I'll be adding to her arsenal along with wands of gravestrike and vinestrike in the near future.

So that left Astraea as the primary damage dealer for the party, and it took her nearly three rounds to even get within range. She could have gotten there faster, I suppose, if she used her Bolt Shirt sooner, but I was really trying to save that for an emergency. The Angelhelm she had was also useful, as it let Nephele come back to the fight. If Nephele went down and hadn't gotten back up, I doubt the alxialut would have left, which could have resulted in a TPK (or not, depending on rolls).

The starting distance was really a big problem for my party: for essentially the first three rounds of combat, my angels weren't able to do anything to the alxialut while it peppered us with long-ranged attacks.

On the upside, Nephele's Good Karma/Absorb trick worked, which otherwise would have incapacitated Astraea. Silence could have been better: her primary casting qualities are against other casters, but she's no slouch in a fight. I should have gotten her in closer, quicker. Same with Astraea. For being caster-types, they have obscene amounts of HP.

All in all, a decent fight, one I was expecting to be difficult and potentially even result in my death.

In subsequent fights, I'd probably switch out Illumina for a more front-liney type. Maybe Rutaus (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=1523).

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 08:01 PM
You could have won had you followed up with shadow fireball, which would have caught up to the alxialut.

Yes, your casters do have an obscene amount of hp. I was astounded. That's primarily why it ran, because it couldn't remove a threat or two in the first rounds.

Still don't know where Good Karma is from - could someone enlighten me?

Fax Celestis
2009-01-15, 08:03 PM
You could have won had you followed up with shadow fireball, which would have caught up to the alxialut.

Yes, your casters do have an obscene amount of hp. I was astounded. That's primarily why it ran, because it couldn't remove a threat or two in the first rounds.

Still don't know where Good Karma is from - could someone enlighten me?

Good Karma's, along with Unbelievable Luck and all the other luck feats, in CScn.

And it would've taken two rounds to get that fireball off: Silence only gets one use before she has to refresh. At that point, it could have gotten out of range.

Keld Denar
2009-01-15, 08:03 PM
Well tried Fax. It would be interesting to see how you fair against another party, or a different kind of monster, namedly something that doesn't specifically hose rogue/beguiler types.

In other news, I only have 1.5 characters left to transcribe. I just finished my Bardblade and only have my cleric's cohort and my *uuh* wizard's spell list to figure out. I'll be able to go tomorrow morning, if thats ok, and I'll have to use the forum roller, since Fax's roller is blocked by Websense....blah.

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 08:09 PM
Didn't realize about the refresh. You would have been right not to chance it in any event.

Starbuck_II
2009-01-15, 08:10 PM
By Monday (most likely) or Sunday (late), I can make a level ECL 10 party:

1) A Noctumancer (From Tome of Magic)
As an aside can one use Precocious Apprentice to gain 2nd level spells to qualify as 2nd level spell prerequisite?
I know that Mysteries aren't spells so unlike the argument against a Cleric (technically the feat stops working when Cleric has 2nd level spells for Mystic Theurge) but the feat won't stop working by RAW (any translation thereof) involving a mystery user.

2) A Thri-keen Soulbow (Thri-keen from XPH, Soulbow from Complete Psionics)

3) A Binder (possibly multi-classed)

4) Lumi Dread Necromancer or Warlock

What point buy or do we roll for stats? (I've made the characters, but they are on laptop.unable to connect to internet my laptop till Sunday/Monday... I'm on family computer at moment. Also forgot exactly what they are at moment)

Do we need to find one of those online character sheet places? (I've never made it that way before but am willing)

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 08:14 PM
By Monday (most likely) or Sunday (late), I can make a level ECL 10 party:

Great! I'm sure I can find something to TPK you with challenge you.


1) A Noctumancer (From Tome of Magic)
As an aside can one use Precocious Apprentice to gain 2nd level spells to qualify as 2nd level spell prerequisite?

Sure, why not.


What point buy or do we roll for stats? (I've made the characters, but they are on laptop.unable to connect to internet my laptop till Sunday/Monday... I'm on family computer at moment. Also forgot exactly what they are at moment)

32-point sound fair?


Do we need to find one of those online character sheet places? (I've never made it that way before but am willing)

You can statblock it on this thread if you prefer.

Keld Denar
2009-01-15, 08:22 PM
What point buy or do we roll for stats? (I've made the characters, but they are on laptop.unable to connect to internet my laptop till Sunday/Monday... I'm on family computer at moment. Also forgot exactly what they are at moment)

Do we need to find one of those online character sheet places? (I've never made it that way before but am willing)

Go to Wal-Mart and buy a 1 gig thumb drive for $3. Its a great investment, I used mine a ton in college. Use that to transfer character sheets from laptop to desktop.

Or, register on Myth-weavers.com. Its free. I just did it today, and there character sheets are obscenely easy to use. I'm on my last character, and its only taken me this long because I've had to pick spells, and you know...actually do some work while I'm at work. That way you can show off your fancy characters as well.

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 08:23 PM
Go to Wal-Mart and buy a 1 gig thumb drive for $3. Its a great investment, I used mine a ton in college. Use that to transfer character sheets from laptop to desktop.

...$3? Really?

Fax Celestis
2009-01-15, 08:26 PM
...$3? Really?

Yeah. They're hella cheap these days.

Myth-Weavers is good, and so is Reina's site: here (http://pifro.com/pro/). Same mechanics, GitP-local hosting.

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 08:27 PM
...I should drop down there, pick up a bunch.

Keld Denar
2009-01-15, 08:28 PM
I saw 2 gig ones on sale for $2 on Black Friday about 4-5 years ago. I can't imagine a 1gig on would be too much any more.

I stand corrected. 2 gig for $1.85 (http://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Traveler-Drive-DTI-2GB/dp/B000ERAON2/ref=pd_bbs_sr_6?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1232069163&sr=8-6). Just click the 48 new and used link in the middle of the page. If you don't want to buy it online, I can't imagine Wal-Mart charging more than $5 TOPS for a 1-2 gig flash drive.

EDIT:

Errm, how to we determine Wizard's spells known? Normally its 2 level, but when creating a character above 1st, you need to factor in adventuring. I'm thinkin 4 per level? Or is that too many? Any thoughts?

Eldariel
2009-01-15, 08:52 PM
I'd say above level 7, just pick level 1s and 2s at will; you've had enough opportunities to pick 'em from dead opposing mages, friendly mages willing to trade spells with you and so on. Other than that, I'd say "pay for 'em". They're a part of your WBL after all.

Fostire
2009-01-15, 08:56 PM
@afroakuma: Do you have any CR 1 or CR 3 monsters that you need testing?

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 09:00 PM
I do. Also an amusing CR 5...

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-15, 09:01 PM
I saw 2 gig ones on sale for $2 on Black Friday about 4-5 years ago. I can't imagine a 1gig on would be too much any more.

I stand corrected. 2 gig for $1.85 (http://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Traveler-Drive-DTI-2GB/dp/B000ERAON2/ref=pd_bbs_sr_6?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1232069163&sr=8-6). Just click the 48 new and used link in the middle of the page. If you don't want to buy it online, I can't imagine Wal-Mart charging more than $5 TOPS for a 1-2 gig flash drive.

EDIT:

Errm, how to we determine Wizard's spells known? Normally its 2 level, but when creating a character above 1st, you need to factor in adventuring. I'm thinkin 4 per level? Or is that too many? Any thoughts?

Generally, I tell my players "You get your base two per level, then spend your WBL on scrolls. Any scrolls you start with can instead be considered to be already scribed into your spellbook.

That's the Wizard's advantage over the Sorcerer. Of course, it's not free...

Fostire
2009-01-15, 09:03 PM
I do. Also an amusing CR 5...

Ok then, I'll make an EL 5 party this weekend.

Rei_Jin
2009-01-15, 09:06 PM
Yah. I tried to build a level 21 Wizard once, spent all my wealth just buying scrolls to put into my spellbook, and I didn't even get them all.

There's something to be said for item creation: It gives wizards a chance to earn enough gold to actually buy all the scrolls they want, and the longer they spend on the same level, the more wealth they'll gain from combats.

Keld Denar
2009-01-15, 09:13 PM
I'm guessing the Flesh to Salt trick involving spending your entire WBL on common donkeys, transmuting them all into salt, and selling them at commodity value wouldn't work...

:smallcool:

Whats another good 6th level wizard spell other than Freezing Fog and Split Ray Enervation?

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 09:15 PM
I'm told Disintegrate isn't too shabby...

Eldariel
2009-01-15, 09:17 PM
I'm guessing the Flesh to Salt trick involving spending your entire WBL on common donkeys, transmuting them all into salt, and selling them at commodity value wouldn't work...

:smallcool:

Whats another good 6th level wizard spell other than Freezing Fog and Split Ray Enervation?

Contingency should be solid.

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 09:23 PM
I keep having this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99uQWUZ9ynM) stuck in my head now.

Keld Denar
2009-01-15, 09:30 PM
Hmmm, I'm thinking Illusory Pit or Flesh Shiver atm...IP is a will save mass mez, with a no-save stun attached to the end of it. Flesh Shiver is a no-save stun, but only works on things with lower HD than your CL, which doesn't work on a lot of animal and undead types who's HD scale fast.

Hmmmm, decisions....

BTW, Fax, I thought of a really good combo with that Lucky Surge feat you used to redirect the Hold Person that thing shot at you. Occult Slayers can spell reflect 1-2 times per day. If you had like, a Hexblade/Occult Slayer, with some luck feats, you could pull a spell toward you, and then rebound it back at the caster. That's just nasty! Heh.

My wizard is all done, except for a very few spells, which means my party is almost all done...what do I get at ECL11 Afroakuma? Make it mean!:smallcool:

Ravens_cry
2009-01-15, 09:31 PM
I keep having this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99uQWUZ9ynM) stuck in my head now.

MORTAL KOMBAT! ! !


* * *
:smalleek:

* * *
heh, heh. sorry about that.

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 09:34 PM
My wizard is all done, except for a very few spells, which means my party is almost all done...what do I get at ECL11 Afroakuma? Make it mean!:smallcool:

Oh, I will. You'll reel.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-15, 10:42 PM
I'm guessing the Flesh to Salt trick involving spending your entire WBL on common donkeys, transmuting them all into salt, and selling them at commodity value wouldn't work...

:smallcool:

Whats another good 6th level wizard spell other than Freezing Fog and Split Ray Enervation?

I'm using Superior Resistance (as a 24 hour duration every-day spell) and blowing all my Sorcerer's 6th level spells to give everyone a +6 to all saves. Considering the gaps a couple of them have, due to unbalanced saves because many of the classes I used have the same saves, this is going to save my party's bacon. Getting a +14 instead of a +8 on a save is often the difference between making a save and failing it.

Disintegrate is good.

Contingency... actually, not so good, for the purposes of this, unless you also have access to both Celerity AND Sudden Maximize Time Stop. And really, if you've got all that, it's better to use Greater Shadow Evocation to do it.

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 11:02 PM
If you have access to both of those, then you may have some bigger concerns, since you're now fighting something that's probably epic. and has Spell Stowaway on your time stop.

Shneekey: I see you've assessed the danger level of upcoming foes. :smallwink:

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 11:26 PM
By the way, one of the higher-level parties may be seeing this:


an emaciated azure-black skeletal creature with pronounced varicose veins webbed liberally over its skull. Its eyes are black gel with pinpricks of azure light, bound by a folding membrane. The few tissues it has ooze and pulsate, letting flow a thin sap that repairs bone and flesh damage. Its jaw is bisected, its mouth and claws drip a thin acid, and it has a single, dessicated, bony tentacle

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-15, 11:29 PM
If you have access to both of those, then you may have some bigger concerns, since you're now fighting something that's probably epic. and has Spell Stowaway on your time stop.

Shneekey: I see you've assessed the danger level of upcoming foes. :smallwink:

After the curb-stomping Fax got (one of the better guys around here at doing this kind of thing), I'm afraid I'm going to be hearing this (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=eKrdEm7jso4) music (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ILtNvCmh-MQ) start playing in the background before combat begins... :smalleek:

afroakuma
2009-01-15, 11:49 PM
Now, will you be self-curbstomping or leaving it to my capable dark powers? :smallcool:

Awesome picks, by the way. I personally prefer this cover (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uxcAuPzhuo&feature=related) of theirs.

Or, my favorite for solo curbstompy battles against the implacable foe, this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqD1GsdnHBk). Play it loud. :smallcool:

Eldariel
2009-01-16, 12:06 AM
MORTAL KOMBAT! ! !


* * *
:smalleek:

* * *
heh, heh. sorry about that.

For some reason I associated that with this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N6Kaz59CTE). Not that I mind, but now I'm not sleeping 'cause I'm watching that fight over and over.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-16, 12:14 AM
Now, will you be self-curbstomping or leaving it to my capable dark powers? :smallcool:

Awesome picks, by the way. I personally prefer this cover (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uxcAuPzhuo&feature=related) of theirs.

Or, my favorite for solo curbstompy battles against the implacable foe, this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqD1GsdnHBk). Play it loud. :smallcool:

Okay, I'll give you the II, Zeramos was a badass. but not the XII.

Funny how all the FF Villians tanked after the decision was made to abandon Nintendo and go to Soney... I mean, look at the originals: Kefka, Zaramos, even the original Chaos was cool looking for it's day. Then you look at the rest... Okay, Seph is eye candy and fanservice, but jeez, every bloody person in that game, including the comic relief cait sith and Yuffie were emo and whiny, and Seph still gets one-rounded. Sin does too much "Luke, I am your Father, only I'm not... aw heck, just kill me and get it over with". Granted, Tidus is more sane than either Cloud OR Squall, but he fails ultimately to the 6th sense fallacy. Tidus is really a summon that Yuna brings back at the beginning of the game

Anyways, I'm not saying that my party is god-like, by any means, but I think I've covered more contingencies than Fax has. For one, my precision-damage character has wands of Golembane and Gravebane that he can activate while still TWFing his Handaxes, so odds are he really CAN apply precision-based damage. I also have some tricks up my sleeve to ensure he really actually and truly can apply them, even without hiding or assistance from the tank. However, my tank has embarrassingly low hit points (less than 100 at level 12). In fact, my precision-based damage dealer would have had MORE Hit Points than the Tank had, if the Tank didn't have a better Con. My Caster has a few 'get out of damage free' cards, and I've jacked the saves as high as I can without resorting to true Cheese, but I'm fairly certain that thing Fax ran up against would have killed at least one of my characters as well.

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 12:20 AM
Getting within 30 ft. of it is just asking for trouble. The Force Strike/Maximized magic missile combo is savage.

How would you like to face one with its minions? :smallbiggrin:

You're at ECL 12, yes? Your opponent - you'll be thankful for jacked up saves.

Adumbration
2009-01-16, 12:40 AM
You know, seeing that another picker has arrived for ECL 5, I might do ECL 1. I should have enough uber-optimised characters left-over from the Arena. Will be back later today with the sheets.

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 12:42 AM
Up to you.

I'll do up a table tomorrow of who's got what so far.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-16, 02:05 AM
I keep having this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99uQWUZ9ynM) stuck in my head now.

Thank God I'm not crazy. That's literally what I think about every time I click on this thread.

Rei_Jin
2009-01-16, 04:00 AM
Okay, call me crazy, but I think my party is done.

It's 8pm on Friday night here, but I'll be back on Monday morning to run you through this Afroakuma. In the meantime, here's my characters


Gri'aule, the Rainbow Servant of Bahamut (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102882)

Rajura, Ordained Champion of Heironeous (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102883)

Gaumardas, Fist of Raziels Fury (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102880)

Tripitaka, Hidden blade of Kharash (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102881)



Let me know what you think, and any questions you may have.

I call this, the A-Team

lord_khaine
2009-01-16, 05:03 AM
here is the results of when i ran the battle.

Round 1
Reacting unusualy fast, and being the brains of the party, Ruby yells out "i think its a sort of Ice deamon"

After that she positions herself in the middel of the party, and Nukes the Deamon with a fully augumentet Energy missile for 35 points of fire damage, where only a lucky reflex save kept it from being much worse.

Next comes Corrund, who follow Ruby's lead and nukes the Deamon with a Empowered wild surging Energy missile for 114 points of fire damage

Dancer cant reach the Deamon, so the swordsage just moves a little forward and enters total defence.

Obsidian uses Hustle to move 30 feet closer, and then charges the Deamon, hitting it for a unimpressive 13 points of damage, taking it down to
-10 hp and killing it.


i was not sure if the Binding cold aura apply as soon as you move into the aura, or if it only works against movement actions that begins inside the aura, if the later is the case, then the Deamon would have survived long enough to Dimension Door away under cover of Invisibility.

edit.
anything left to fight?

Adumbration
2009-01-16, 06:06 AM
Here's my ECL 1 party:
Skie the Vengeful (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=16664), the fighting savant crusader.
Deharius (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=11409), the Favored Soul of Iborighu.
Traeth Dred (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=20001), the Kenku Warlock.
Caleb Vestrit (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=21178) another fighting savant. Noticing a pattern here?

I'm afraid all of these but Traeth were originally designed for Arena, so I completely disregarded the mental stats. This is, if the word must be used, a MinMaxed party.

You'd better have a tough opponent.

Tehnar
2009-01-16, 06:38 AM
I have a rather unoptimised (compared to other characters posted) party at ECL 10. Actually they are PCs in the game in a campaign I'm DMing. I would like to give them a stress test of maybe a CR 13-14 monster, if you are up to it.

If you are Ill have to adapt them a bit since most are playing under some house rule (change them so its all by the book).

lord_khaine
2009-01-16, 06:47 AM
these critters are actualy pretty tough, but if by stress test you mean TPK, then im sure afroakuma kan help you.

else you might considder asking for something a little closer to their level?

Tehnar
2009-01-16, 07:02 AM
Yeah, Im aware it will probably be a TPK. Im mostly interested in seeing how they fare, and how long can they last against such monsters. Anyway they are 32 pb human fighter 10, human barbarian 10, human druid 10 (shapeshift variant), human rogue 8/swordsage 2. I just want them to go through a TPK or very near TPK fight.

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 09:08 AM
here is the results of when i ran the battle.

Round 1
*smoosh*

Gleep. Also not surprised.


i was not sure if the Binding cold aura apply as soon as you move into the aura, or if it only works against movement actions that begins inside the aura, if the later is the case, then the Deamon would have survived long enough to Dimension Door away under cover of Invisibility.


As soon as you enter it, you enjoy the wonders of cold damage and freezing slowly to death.

Your assessment: Was its death so quick specifically because of the psionic characters? Should I jack up its defense? I know that didn't cost you 20% of your resources.

Well, that one's bad for solo combat. Let's try you against something meaner.

Combat:

lord_khaine vs. one Pink Slaad (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5051014&postcount=6) (ECL 10)

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 09:12 AM
Adumbration, you wanted a tough opponent?

I think I have something that can take the hits. :smallamused:

Let's start light:

Adumbration vs. one Polytrotos lamente (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5150086&postcount=21)

Enjoy!

Adumbration
2009-01-16, 09:25 AM
Adumbration, you wanted a tough opponent?

I think I have something that can take the hits. :smallamused:

Let's start light:

Adumbration vs. one Polytrotos lamente (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5150086&postcount=21)

Enjoy!

Shall I run it myself, or do you have the time? I should available for the next 4-6 hours.

EDIT: Oh, and you haven't specified how much regeneration the monster has.

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 09:29 AM
Rei_Jin, I don't envy you this trial. Interesting party, btw.

Combat:

The A Team vs. two Dying Lamenti (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5217281#post5217281)

Special consideration:

The monster can't use its rampage ability since there are no corridors.

No Knowledge check will avail your characters to its Fragile Neck. Wait until either the fourth round or the first round after a character has taken damage from its breath weapon before taking advantage of that weakness.

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 09:31 AM
Shall I run it myself, or do you have the time? I should available for the next 4-6 hours.

At the moment I don't; I'll be back in four hours.


EDIT: Oh, and you haven't specified how much regeneration the monster has.

That's because it regenerates all weapon damage. But for argument's sake, let's say... regeneration 50.

Adumbration
2009-01-16, 09:40 AM
Could you describe it's tactics more elaborately? Does it start combat by trying to summon another Lamente, or save it for later? Does the regeneration occur at the beginning of it's turn, or at the end of the round?

I think I can run the combat myself, if necessary - doesn't seem too complicated.

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 09:44 AM
It will probably make the summon attempt and then flee if unsuccessful. Once it gets into melee it will singlemindedly attack anyone who it thinks could legitimately threaten it. In other words, it's a magekiller.

Beginning of its turn, I believe, should be appropriate.

Adumbration
2009-01-16, 10:09 AM
The match is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5650337#post5650337)

lord_khaine
2009-01-16, 10:18 AM
Your assessment: Was its death so quick specifically because of the psionic characters? Should I jack up its defense? I know that didn't cost you 20% of your resources.


hmm, i would say the monster is weak against ranget fire damage, and my team is very good at nuking things from afar.
but i can also imagine that it would be very annoying for a normal group with less ranget firepower, so try and see if anyone else care to try it?

Adumbration
2009-01-16, 11:07 AM
And thus Polytrotos lamente was defeated. A disgraceful death from a coup de grace by scythe. I actually once exceeded the regeneration 50 by dealing 51 non-lethal damage - too bad the next round there were no crits and I only got 45, and so it was in vain.

EDIT: Reposting the link for the new page:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5650337#post5650337

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-16, 11:37 AM
Work in process, but here you go so far:

Bob, the meat shield (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102981) (still statting out)
Pip, the skillmonkey (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102949) - Equipment and Skills still being worked on
Sam, the Arcane Caster (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102970)
Theo, the Support Person (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102982) (still statting out)

Standard buffs:
Every day, in the morning, the following buffs go off:

Greater Magic Weapon on both of Pip's weapons, Bob's weapon, and Theo's weapon
Magic Vestment on everyone
Resistance, Superior on everyone (+6 all saves) (Yes, this takes up *ALL* of Sam's 6th level slots)

All of these spells either have 24 hr duration, or a duration of Hours/level.

Still a LOT of work to go on these guys, but here's the basic concept:

Bob: trip/charge build. Designed to mix it up and lock it down
Pip: skillmonkey/TWF damage build. Designed to close and kill
Theo: Cleric Support Build. Designed to buff/heal/remove status effects
Sam: Arcane Caster.

Shneekey's Stompers

Bob Bast (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102981)
M CG Rng1/PsiWar4/Slayer7, Level 12, Init +3, HP 88/88, Speed 30
AC 28, Touch 15, Flat-footed 25, Fort +17, Ref +14, Will +14, Base Attack Bonus 11/6/1
Collision +1 Spiked Chain +22/+17/+12 (2d4+20, X2)
+1 Mithral Full Plate (+13 Armor, +3 Dex, +2 Deflect)
Abilities Str 26, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Condition GMW (+3)
Magic Vestments (+3)
Resistance, Superior (+6 all saves)
If he chooses to Expansion, he gains +4 Str, -4 Dex, -2 AC. Damage goes up two size categories (3d6+23). Melee Range is 20'
Shock Trooper lets him switch his Power Attack penalty to AC on a charge
+4 save vs mental effects

Done!

Pip Squeak (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102949)
M CG Strongheart Halfling *Rogue6/SS2/NE2/BCM2, Level 12, Init +13, HP 73/73, Speed 20
AC 28, Touch 23, Flat-footed 19, Fort +13, Ref +29, Will +14, Base Attack Bonus 9/4
Wand Chamber, Collision +1 Handaxe +23/+18 (1d4+17, X3)
Wand Chamber, Collision +1 Handaxe +23/+18 (1d4+17, X3)
+1 Mithral Chain Shirt (+5 Armor, +9 Dex, +1 Size, +3 Misc)
Abilities Str 6, Dex 28, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 17
Condition Greater Magic Weapon (+3)
Magic Vestments (+3)
Superior Resistance (+6 all saves)

Done!

Sam Sung (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102970)
M CG Human Sorcerer6/MotAO6, Level 12, Init +6, HP 38 /38 , Speed 30
AC 23, Touch 16, Flat-footed 17, Fort +11, Ref +16, Will +17, Base Attack Bonus +6/+1
Twilight +1 Mithral Chain Shirt (+7 Armor, +6 Dex)
Abilities Str 8, Dex 22, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 26
Condition Magic Vestment (+3)
Superior Resistance (+6 all Saves)

Working on gear still

Theo Logan (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102982)
M NG Human Cleric6/RSoP6, Level 12, Init +3, HP 34/34, Speed AC 29, Touch 13, Flat-footed 26, Fort +12, Ref +11, Will +16, Base Attack Bonus +8/+3 - Heavy Mace +11/+6 (1d8+3, X2) +1 Mithral Full Plate, +1 Heavy Steel Shield (+11 Armor, +5 Shield, +3 Dex) Abilities Str 11, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 16 Condition Magic Vestments (+3) Greater Magic Weapon (+3) Superior Resistance (+6 All Saves) All cure spells will be auto-maximized All allies gain +2 (Morale bonus) will save

Working on Gear and Spell List

Whaddya think so far?

Keld Denar
2009-01-16, 12:03 PM
BEHOLD! T.E.A.M.!!! [Team Exterminating Afroakuma's Monsters]

ECL11

Liam Wyvernhand (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103009)
Keld Denar (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103011)
Issendir Amikiir (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103010)
Traj Flameblade (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103012)
with Keld's cohort Buff Betty (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103013)

When, where, and what do I get to fight?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-16, 12:14 PM
BEHOLD! T.E.A.M.!!! [Team Exterminating Afroakuma's Monsters]

ECL11

Liam Wyvernhand (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103009)
Keld Denar (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103011)
Issendir Amikiir (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103010)
Traj Flameblade (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103012)
with Keld's cohort Buff Betty (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103013)

When, where, and what do I get to fight?

Am I the only one giggling that Buff Betty only has ONE beneficial spell in her spells known list (haste)?

And how the heck is Liam affording a +4 Breastplate of Energy Immunity on a ECL 11 WBL budget?

Adumbration
2009-01-16, 12:16 PM
Nope, I noticed it too. :smalltongue:

Draz74
2009-01-16, 12:18 PM
Benign Transposition might count, too.

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 12:23 PM
And thus Polytrotos lamente was defeated. A disgraceful death from a coup de grace by scythe. I actually once exceeded the regeneration 50 by dealing 51 non-lethal damage - too bad the next round there were no crits and I only got 45, and so it was in vain.

EDIT: Reposting the link for the new page:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5650337#post5650337

Check it again. If I'm not mistaken, its regeneration means you'll have to find some other way to coup de grace it.

I'll assign opponents for the rest of you when I get home.

Keld Denar
2009-01-16, 12:29 PM
And how the heck is Liam affording a +4 Breastplate of Energy Immunity on a ECL 11 WBL budget?

Its not a +6 item, its a +3 item.

+1 Energy Immunity

Then we add a CL16+ Magic Vestaments to it, making it +4. Beads of Karma are fun!

That's also why his shield is +4. I added in the stats for that and the CL12 Chained(Lesser Rod) Greater Magic Weapon to the sheets, since they are pretty much all day buffs.

Also have the Extended Mass Conviction save bonus is on there as well, and the +1 (Moral) to hit from Hero's Feast. Or would you want me to take them out?

Starbuck_II
2009-01-16, 12:33 PM
Afro is right. He needs a torch or a +energy weapon to coup it.

There was a FAQ about this situation.


So hr/level buffs expected to be on prior to the battle? (good to know).

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-16, 12:33 PM
Its not a +6 item, its a +3 item.


+1 Energy Immunity
Then we add a CL16+ Magic Vestaments to it, making it +4. Beads of Karma are fun!

That's also why his shield is +4.

In what pipe dream book is Energy Immunity a +2 enhancement modifier? It's listed in the Epic as a Ring for over 250k. Unless you mean it's immune to ALL energy, in which case the cost goes up over two million.

Keld Denar
2009-01-16, 12:40 PM
In what pipe dream book is Energy Immunity a +2 enhancement modifier? It's listed in the Epic as a Ring for over 250k. Unless you mean it's immune to ALL energy, in which case the cost goes up over two million.

Magic Item Compendium

Its not continuous though. Its once per day, lasts 1 minute, and triggers as an immediate action. You pick the flavor to be immune to when you trigger it. Its one that I typically get on my melee characters, along with Death Ward (1/d negate negative energy or death magic), but I ran out of cash for DW...

Adumbration
2009-01-16, 12:40 PM
Check it again. If I'm not mistaken, its regeneration means you'll have to find some other way to coup de grace it.

I'll assign opponents for the rest of you when I get home.

In that case, match conceded.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-16, 12:55 PM
Magic Item Compendium

Its not continuous though. Its once per day, lasts 1 minute, and triggers as an immediate action. You pick the flavor to be immune to when you trigger it. Its one that I typically get on my melee characters, along with Death Ward (1/d negate negative energy or death magic), but I ran out of cash for DW...

Ahh, that's why I've got a Cleric with a crapload of Turn attempts and DMM Chain, can drop that on the whole party at once. Nice cheap trick for this encounter, though. I should have thought of it.

Now how did you end up with Amulet of Con +4 AND Natural Armor +1. To my knowledge, those don't stack

Fax Celestis
2009-01-16, 01:00 PM
Ahh, that's why I've got a Cleric with a crapload of Turn attempts and DMM Chain, can drop that on the whole party at once. Nice cheap trick for this encounter, though. I should have thought of it.

Now how did you end up with Amulet of Con +4 AND Natural Armor +1. To my knowledge, those don't stack

You can purchase them into one item. It checks out. That's how most of my Angels have Cloaks of Resistance +1 and Charisma +2.

Draz74
2009-01-16, 01:03 PM
Now how did you end up with Amulet of Con +4 AND Natural Armor +1. To my knowledge, those don't stack

You really need a look at MIC. :smallwink: It changed the rules for multiple effects on an item. It basically says, "Since everyone needs items that give you basic +'s (to AC, ability scores, etc.), and it sucks to have to use all your body slots on those instead of more creative/individual items, you can now add these basic functions to other magic items without paying the x1.5 cost penalty anymore."

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 01:14 PM
...that seems excessive. Reduces the sting of having to allocate your ability scores and then choose how to increase them.

I'm not sure I'm a fan.

Keld Denar
2009-01-16, 01:15 PM
You really need a look at MIC.

Agreed. MIC is an awesome book. It and SpC and ToB should have been released LONG before their time. Those 3 books, above all other since the Core 3, have changed the game the most. ToM was a good idea, but sadly had poor exectution and balance, and Incarnum never really caught on in most circles (too bad, its kind of neat). All the Completes and Races of... are just more of the same, but those 3 really broke the mold, IMO.

EDIT:
One of the biggest problems I've had with D&D since the beginning is that clerics, druids, and monks (ESPECIALLY MONKS) can't buy +con items, because they need to buy +wis items that take that slot. Sure, you can pay double price for an Ioun Stone, or use your belt slot for a Belt of Dwarven Kind (then no Monks Belt). MIC came out with a lot of neato items that go in standard body slots that were pretty much permanantly burned on a couple items, like con, AC, etc. You can only add basic stats to them, though, so you could have a Lesser Cloak of Displacement with +5 Resistance, but you couldn't have a Lesser Cloak of Displacement of the Bat.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-16, 01:16 PM
You really need a look at MIC. :smallwink: It changed the rules for multiple effects on an item. It basically says, "Since everyone needs items that give you basic +'s (to AC, ability scores, etc.), and it sucks to have to use all your body slots on those instead of more creative/individual items, you can now add these basic functions to other magic items without paying the x1.5 cost penalty anymore."

Damn, I was wondering why my last GM banned MIC... now I know why.

Good to know, although it won't do my characters much good in this encounter.

Oddly enough, my tank doesn't mind being hit (so long as he doesn't get one-hit-KO'd). In fact, please hit me. Empathic Transfer, Hostile is such a FUN power to manifest. I was one feat shy of getting Robilar's Gambit, so at least he doesn't provoke attacks by hitting him, but with a 20' reach, he can pounce and full attack at 15' away from you, then provoke AoO when you try to close.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-16, 01:19 PM
...that seems excessive. Reduces the sting of having to allocate your ability scores and then choose how to increase them.

I'm not sure I'm a fan.

The MIC then provides options for items that are actually competitive with stat boosts, so it's about even: you'll see more double- or triple-duty items, but you'll also see more non-stat boosting unique items.

Also, real quick: afroakuma, what's your call on a werecreature where the base animal has a fractional hd (like, say, a halfling wereweasel)? It may come up for my Illumina replacement, but I'm not sure.

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 01:23 PM
Nah; anything that vaults up the overall power level of the game is... distressing.

Unless the monsters get the same perks. :smallamused:

Fax: I don't see why I should have a problem with it.

Draz74
2009-01-16, 01:30 PM
...that seems excessive. Reduces the sting of having to allocate your ability scores and then choose how to increase them.

I'm not sure I'm a fan.

I can see your side, but overall I think the benefits of the rule change outweigh the cheese. Like Fax said, you end up seeing a lot more interesting variety in characters' inventories with MIC, both because of this new rule and because the book just offered so many more interesting things magic items can do to compete with boring stat-boost items.

I think a bigger problem is the "combine effects into one item" rule in the first place, honestly. If they wanted anyone to take the Body Slots system seriously, they shouldn't have made such a big exception to it right in Core. (Maybe as a feat, instead, you could benefit from two items in the same slot or something, like the Epic Extra Body Slot Feat, only not Epic.)

Sure, the book contains power creep, but what splat doesn't? Overall the book is definitely not one of the cheesiest ones. It's telling that only one item in the whole book (Belt of Battle) is regularly toted as overpowered.

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 01:32 PM
As a DM, I would ban that particular entry in the MIC, but not the whole book.

However, I won't change the rules on it. This time.

Edit: Holy cow, how have I never seen that entry before in the DMG?

Massive irritation now. You're correct, Draz; they should junk that altogether.

Shneekey: Your combat awaits.

Combat:

ShneekeyTheLost vs. one Orange Slaad (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5049502#post5049502) and one Purple Slaad (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5050999#post5050999).

Enjoy!

Keld Denar, your combat is also readied.

T.E.A.M. vs. two Ramitra inexorables (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5029724#post5029724).

Keld Denar
2009-01-16, 01:34 PM
Nah; anything that vaults up the overall power level of the game is... distressing.

The DM I used to play with all the time allowed most of that stuff. He was REALLY good at making monsters, and encounters, that are generally more than their EL would indicate. That, and he started randomly giving ToB maneuvers to just about every monster in the game. Made things much more interesting, yet still balanced. Trolls get Iron Heart Surge...RAWR!

Anyway, Afroakuma, you got time today? Lemme know about when you want to start, and indicate what time zone you are on, cause I'm on Alaska time, but everyone keeps assuming I'm on Eastern time which IS 4 HOURS AWAY!

EDIT:
You wanna run it? Or you want me to?

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 01:35 PM
I absolutely have time. Are you sure you want me running them? :smallamused:

I'm on the other coast, but time zone is largely irrelevant since I rarely sleep.

Also, if you're actually in Alaska, go report yourself to the USA in the Playground thread. Your state has no lights yet.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-16, 01:43 PM
You know what? I have monsters too. Anyone care to try one of mine? We can run via PbP on the fora.

Keld Denar
2009-01-16, 01:44 PM
I absolutely have time. Are you sure you want me running them? :smallamused:
Host it up, I'm curious if you are thinking of something that'll make your little buggers last more than 2 rounds, because I can't see any way.
[That was a bluff check, not an itimidate check, just for the record]


Also, if you're actually in Alaska, go report yourself to the USA in the Playground thread. Your state has no lights yet.
I don't LIVE in Alaska, I just commute here for work.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-16, 01:47 PM
I don't LIVE in Alaska, I just commute here for work.

...from Seattle? o_O

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 01:49 PM
Hence the that.

Fax is right, anyone want to take him on?

Keld: Gamma board, Test Your Might 2. Game On.

Eldariel
2009-01-16, 02:04 PM
The reason for that entry is that every high level character practically needs boosts to their primary ability score, and really wants 'em to Con too. Then all the different types of armor bonuses...just to have your stats matter against CR appropriate encounters, you need to spend like 5 of your 8 body slots already. Magic Item Compendium is a book of magic items. It's got all sorts of cool, interesting stuff. However, most of that stuff the PCs just can't use because their body slots are already taken by the necessary items they need to match up to encounters (heck, for melee, you can add some flight-method and Boots of Speed to the list of necessaries too).

So the rule was added so that the interesting items could be used while still being able to have basic competence in your party role. Now the choices are made between the thousands of interesting items you could wear in every slot rather than Periapt of Wisdom or...well, I have to wear that or nobody will ever fail a save vs. my spell and I'll have less of them daily. 3.5 was really built thusly that the characters need the stat buffs and AC buffs (if you want for AC to matter; with steady BAB and Str advancement but without such advancement for AC, attack bonuses exceed AC without roll midway through without NA and Deflection and armor bonus increasing).

Keld Denar
2009-01-16, 02:10 PM
...from Seattle? o_O

Its only a 3 hour 40 minute flight to Anchorage, then another 1.5 hours to Deadhorse. Yea...I work in a city called Deadhorse, well, if you could even call it a city.

Regardless, I only have to make the commute once every 3 weeks, so its really not that bad. And I get paid to fly, so its a good gig (still gotta by the tix myself though, oh well).

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 02:12 PM
Sure, you need a boost to your primary ability score. I don't argue that. What I'm saying is that you should have to plan around that obstacle.

I can understand that people want to use more of the fun stuff, but there should be a rather low limit. A periapt of wisdom +4 of charisma +2 of constitution +4 is absurd.

Edit: By the way, who let him think that magic vestment stacked with itself or with magical armor?

Fax Celestis
2009-01-16, 02:18 PM
Sure, you need a boost to your primary ability score. I don't argue that. What I'm saying is that you should have to plan around that obstacle.

I can understand that people want to use more of the fun stuff, but there should be a rather low limit. A periapt of wisdom +4 of charisma +2 of constitution +4 is absurd.

Well, it's not as simple as that: the body slot associations (Strength in waist/hands, Dex in hands, Con in torso/neck, Int in head, Wis in face/neck, Cha in back/face, saves in back, damage in arms, skills in hands, language in face/throat, senses in eyes, etc.) still apply, and IIRC you have to pay more if you get the item in an unassociated slot.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-16, 02:19 PM
As a DM, I would ban that particular entry in the MIC, but not the whole book.

However, I won't change the rules on it. This time.

Edit: Holy cow, how have I never seen that entry before in the DMG?

Massive irritation now. You're correct, Draz; they should junk that altogether.

Shneekey: Your combat awaits.

Combat:

ShneekeyTheLost vs. one Orange Slaad (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5049502#post5049502) and one Purple Slaad (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5050999#post5050999).

Enjoy!

Keld Denar, your combat is also readied.

T.E.A.M. vs. two Ramitra inexorables (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5029724#post5029724).

Good thing Purple Slaad has to be within 30' to hijack a divine spell. That's going to get nasty... The Orange one is just a meat shield, exactly what my party was designed to destroy. DC 20 save vs mind-affecting isn't going to be a problem for anyone. My whole party is non-lawful, so they don't have to worry about most of the obnoxious SLA's.

I'll bet we can take these things. Let's take it to the PvP grounds. I'll play my guys, you can play your slaadi, and we'll see who walks away.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-01-16, 02:20 PM
Yea...I work in a city called Deadhorse, well, if you could even call it a city..

I bet there are loads of jokes whenever the Deadhorse sports teams lose.

I can see the headlines already... "Dead Horse Beaten."

Keld Denar
2009-01-16, 02:25 PM
Edit: By the way, who let him think that magic vestment stacked with itself or with magical armor?

Magic Vestment is cast on the armor or shield, not the character. It replaces the enhancement bonus on the armor or shield with its own.

So, I cast MV on Liam's armor, then on his shield, which were both +1.

Now they are +4.

So, you telling me that +4 armor and +4 shield don't stack? The armor has a +4 enhancement bonus to ITS armor benefit, and the shield has a +4 enhancement bonus on ITS shield benefit. They are the same enhancement bonuses, applying to different facets of the armor class. Its the same as just going out and buying a +4 shield and +4 armor, except that you have to burn 2 fourth level slots per day on it.

Its the same reason people never buy more than base +1 weapons anymore. You just get a GMW cast on it, and then buy a bunch of other neato toys on your sword, like Flaming, or whatever.

Draz74
2009-01-16, 02:26 PM
Well, it's not as simple as that: the body slot associations (Strength in waist/hands, Dex in hands, Con in torso/neck, Int in head, Wis in face/neck, Cha in back/face, saves in back, damage in arms, skills in hands, language in face/throat, senses in eyes, etc.) still apply, and IIRC you have to pay more if you get the item in an unassociated slot.

Still, he has a point -- there are limits, but some of them are too lenient. You could have a Cloak of Elvenkind with Resistance +3, Deflection +2, Resist 5 Fire, Resist 5 Sonic, Resist 5 Acid, Charisma +2, all without paying extra for any of those components. (Energy resistance, Cha boosts, Deflection AC boosts, and of course Resistance save boosts are all considered appropriate for the Shoulders slot.)

Of course, if you go to this extreme, sucks for you when 1 item gets Dispelled. :smallamused:

Eldariel
2009-01-16, 02:28 PM
Well, it's not as simple as that: the body slot associations (Strength in waist/hands, Dex in hands, Con in torso/neck, Int in head, Wis in face/neck, Cha in back/face, saves in back, damage in arms, skills in hands, language in face/throat, senses in eyes, etc.) still apply, and IIRC you have to pay more if you get the item in an unassociated slot.

According to MiC rules, you can only get the stat boosts, AC and save buffers to certain body slots; you can't pay the extra price to get 'em anywhere else. Of course, those can be Random Items Of Something Else Cool™, such as Belt of Battle and Str +6 or Eyes of the Eagle and Wis +6 or Circlet of Persuasion and Cha +6 (which makes all sorts of sense anyways).

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 02:31 PM
Magic Vestment is cast on the armor or shield, not the character. It replaces the enhancement bonus on the armor or shield with its own.

So, I cast MV on Liam's armor, then on his shield, which were both +1.

Now they are +4.

So, you telling me that +4 armor and +4 shield don't stack? The armor has a +4 enhancement bonus to ITS armor benefit, and the shield has a +4 enhancement bonus on ITS shield benefit. They are the same enhancement bonuses, applying to different facets of the armor class. Its the same as just going out and buying a +4 shield and +4 armor, except that you have to burn 2 fourth level slots per day on it.

Its the same reason people never buy more than base +1 weapons anymore. You just get a GMW cast on it, and then buy a bunch of other neato toys on your sword, like Flaming, or whatever.

As I said in the battle thread, I thought you'd applied it twice to the armor.

Why did nobody remind me about Faerie Mysteries Initiate? Now I have to let him get away with it. :smallannoyed:

Keld Denar
2009-01-16, 02:34 PM
Still, he has a point -- there are limits, but some of them are too lenient. You could have a Cloak of Elvenkind with Resistance +3, Deflection +2, Resist 5 Fire, Resist 5 Sonic, Resist 5 Acid, Charisma +2, all without paying extra for any of those components. (Energy resistance, Cha boosts, Deflection AC boosts, and of course Resistance save boosts are all considered appropriate for the Shoulders slot.)

Of course, if you go to this extreme, sucks for you when 1 item gets Dispelled. :smallamused:

I think the rule lets you add ONE basic stat to the item, so while you could have a Cloak of Resistance +3 of Deflection +2, you couldn't get +cha on it as well.

If I wrote something like that on one of my character sheets, it was probably ment to go in another open body slot, and I was just fatiguted after rolling up 4 level 11 and 1 level 9 characters.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-16, 02:35 PM
You know what? I have monsters too. Anyone care to try one of mine? We can run via PbP on the fora.

What, nobody?

Blood_Lord
2009-01-16, 02:40 PM
Sure, you need a boost to your primary ability score. I don't argue that. What I'm saying is that you should have to plan around that obstacle.

I can understand that people want to use more of the fun stuff, but there should be a rather low limit. A periapt of wisdom +4 of charisma +2 of constitution +4 is absurd.

Well, first of all, the rules in MiC still give affinities, so you can't actually do that.

However, you could buy an Amulet of Con +4, Wis +4, Natural Armor +4, Planar Tolerance. And it would cost just as much as buying them all separately.

Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070302a)'s an article explaining the designer intent behind the change.

Scroll down to the six reasons that players pick the big six, especially number 6.

It's fine to say that people should have to plan around X, but what you are actually saying is:

All cloaks in the game that aren't of resistance are vendor fodder. All Amulets that aren't Con or Wis or Natural Armor are the same.

Wizard's can't wear hats, Battle Clerics must have less HP then all other characters in the front line. Monks can just go die, And every Fighter needs to choose between AC or HP, and he absolutely can't have the other one.

For example, let's take a level 20 fighter. First he buys a +6 Str item, then a +5 Natural Armor, +5 Resistance, +5 Deflection, Armor, Weapon, Now he's spent 5 of his 10 slots on the things he absolutely needs to even have his numbers matter against level appropriate opposition.

Heaven Forbid he's an Archer, then he needs +6 Dex too. Of course, he also needs Bracers of Archery. Oh crap.

EDIT: Faerie Mysterious Innate isn't all that bad. So your Wizard has more HP, if he was actually in danger of dieing from HP loss anyway he was in trouble.

That said, I wasn't going to use it with either of my Int based casters.

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 02:43 PM
Keld: this individual (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103011) has the offensive item in question.

Vortling
2009-01-16, 02:45 PM
What, nobody?
Do you have monsters appropriate for a level 5 party? Level 10 is more than I want to handle right now but I can whip up a level 5 party or 3.

Draz74
2009-01-16, 02:47 PM
I think the rule lets you add ONE basic stat to the item, so while you could have a Cloak of Resistance +3 of Deflection +2, you couldn't get +cha on it as well.

I can't find anywhere that it states such a limitation ...

Not that I'd use the multi-function thing anyway, except in a few cases. (Specifically, sometimes my Natural Armor bonus has nowhere to go, except on a Vest that's already providing a Resistance bonus. The MIC table only allows natural armor on Vest-slot or Robe-slot items, which is stupid considering how many other-slot items have been published that give natural armor, including the freaking classic Amulet of Natural Armor. So in these cases, I double up Resistance bonuses and Natural Armor bonuses on my magic vest.)


Keld: this individual (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103011) has the offensive item in question.

Evidently the "of +4 Cha" was meant to go one line lower ...

Blood_Lord
2009-01-16, 02:50 PM
Keld: this individual (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103011) has the offensive item in question.

He also has a Cloak of Charisma +4, so if he wants to spend an extra 16000 gp for no gain, let him.

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 02:52 PM
Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070302a)'s an article explaining the designer intent behind the change.

Scroll down to the six reasons that players pick the big six, especially number 6.


Characters simply can’t compete against their foes without enhancing their attack rolls, Armor Class, and saving throws. Every one of the “Big Six” items directly improve your character’s ability to roll high.

Foes simply can’t compete against characters without enhancing their attack rolls, Armor Class, and saving throws.

Look at the battle I'm currently running. One character has a +25 to Initiative... at level 11.

Nothing's going to come close to that without some absurd magical item - which the party will then loot from it.


It's fine to say that people should have to plan around X, but what you are actually saying is:

All cloaks in the game that aren't of resistance are vendor fodder. All Amulets that aren't Con or Wis or Natural Armor are the same.

No, what I'm actually saying is: cloak of resistance not yours. See Roy and the Bag of Tricks. Sometimes you don't get the best. Sometimes you can't buy the best. You are to have a low point, a weak spot, a vulnerability, an inadequacy. Your foe certainly does - and you've already got individual "attention" readied for him.


Monks can just go die

:smallamused:

Fax Celestis
2009-01-16, 02:57 PM
Do you have monsters appropriate for a level 5 party? Level 10 is more than I want to handle right now but I can whip up a level 5 party or 3.

I have a CR 6 readily available. Most of my other stuff is in the 12-17 range.

Adumbration
2009-01-16, 02:57 PM
Monster analysis: Polytrotos (Fragile Lamente) (CR 2)

This monster appears to be invulnerable to all within it's CR range, for following reasons. Regeneration 50. Magic Sponge. The first is hard to overcome enough, but the second turns the encounter for low levels nigh impossible. How?

The regeneration causes all weapon damage to be converted to non-lethal damage, which the extremely high rate of healing almost without exception removes each round. Not only that, but you have to deal enough damage to take the monster to -10 and beyond to render it unconscious. Which is a bit moot, since at the beginning of it's turn, it gains it all back. But the point about getting it unconscious is to use coup de grace - but on closer inspection, this proves to be impossible, as I found out. You can't coup de grace with a weapon that deals non-lethal damage to it - in other words, you can't coup de grace it at all, since you can only coup de grace with either a melee weapon or a bow or a crossbow.

Conclusion: it is immune to all non-spellcasters. Now, you have only one resort left. Magic. The obvious way is to deal 21 damage to it with spell(s). Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, a 3rd level party. The odds are, there's at least one mage amongst them, let's say a wizard. At 3rd level, a wizard has access to 2nd level spells. Let's assume that the mage starts with one of those - for a good reason, as you'll see. The best available spell is Scorching Ray, which deals 4d6 damage if he hits it with a ranged touch attack - an average of 14 damage. Not too shabby.

Now the second ability of the monster comes to play. Magic sponge. If the mage hits it, he gets a -1 penalty to his caster level for 24 hours, no save. This also knocks out his access to 2nd level spells, and he still has 7 damage he needs to deal.

Let's say the wizard next takes out Burning hands. (I'm taking spells out of core, since it's easier than to shuffle through all the splat books. I'm sure there are better spells.) 2d4 damage, averages as 5. Damnit! Still one or two more damage to deal. I guess you'll have to sacrifice ALL of your spellcasting for the day and spend another Burning Hands. But hey, at least the little beast is dead, right?

If you're lucky, yes. If it summoned another one of it's kin, not so. Now you have to fight off another one. Without the spells. And it might summon another one as well - and as a standard action.

I believe that the CR should either be raised, or the monster nerfed. As it is, if it's played by a determined DM, it may well result in TPK. At ECL 3.

Keld Denar
2009-01-16, 02:58 PM
What, nobody?

I'll fight your stuff Fax, but T.E.F.M. doesn't sound as good. I really don't want to scale my team up or down at all though, you got anything at about EL11? I'll fight up to EL15 if you want, to make it epic.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-16, 03:02 PM
I'll fight your stuff Fax, but T.E.F.M. doesn't sound as good. I really don't want to scale my team up or down at all though, you got anything at about EL11? I'll fight up to EL15 if you want, to make it epic.

How does a matched set of a Cyaegha Steambeast and Steamdraken sound? EL 15, rated as a "Very Difficult" encounter.

Keld Denar
2009-01-16, 03:04 PM
I believe that the CR should either be raised, or the monster nerfed. As it is, if it's played by a determined DM, it may well result in TPK. At ECL 3.

Maybe raised as a solo encounter, but form their discription, I'd say that they are intended to accompany something bigger. Tack on 6 of them to an EL12 encounter, and it won't really raise the mechanical EL very much, since they are such low CR, but they will dramatically increase the difficulty of it because they'll absorb the first 6 single target spells, or maybe more, and impose a pretty decent hit to everyone's CL while something bigger and meaner actually does the rend n tearing.

EDIT:
Fax, set up the fight, and I'll do it. I didn't look at your monsters, I think it would be more fun to fight something that you have no freakin clue how to hurt than something you already know what ACs and vulnerabilities you are aiming for. After all, isn't that the primary purpose of homebrew? To rekindle that helpless feeling the first time you faught a troll and no matter what you did, IT KEPT FREAKING GETTING UP. That was a priceless moment for me, but unfortunately, doesn't happen much anymore, since I've done a lot of DMing, and have almost every monster in the MMI-V memorized, at least things like strenghts and special vulnerabilities.

If my guys die horribly, not much loss. I'm expecting something epic from you though. The bar has been set!

EDIT again, Issendir has a +30 on all knowledges used to ID monsters. So tell me what I might know from each with, starting with special vulnerabilities then DR, then resistances, then special attacks as I can get with a roll of:
1d20+30
1d20+30

EDIT
Gah, I don't think you can roll in an edit...oh well, that'll come later.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-16, 03:13 PM
Monster analysis: Polytrotos (Fragile Lamente) (CR 2)

This monster appears to be invulnerable to all within it's CR range, for following reasons. Regeneration 50. Magic Sponge. The first is hard to overcome enough, but the second turns the encounter for low levels nigh impossible. How?

The regeneration causes all weapon damage to be converted to non-lethal damage, which the extremely high rate of healing almost without exception removes each round. Not only that, but you have to deal enough damage to take the monster to -10 and beyond to render it unconscious. Which is a bit moot, since at the beginning of it's turn, it gains it all back. But the point about getting it unconscious is to use coup de grace - but on closer inspection, this proves to be impossible, as I found out. You can't coup de grace with a weapon that deals non-lethal damage to it - in other words, you can't coup de grace it at all, since you can only coup de grace with either a melee weapon or a bow or a crossbow.

Conclusion: it is immune to all non-spellcasters. Now, you have only one resort left. Magic. The obvious way is to deal 21 damage to it with spell(s). Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, a 3rd level party. The odds are, there's at least one mage amongst them, let's say a wizard. At 3rd level, a wizard has access to 2nd level spells. Let's assume that the mage starts with one of those - for a good reason, as you'll see. The best available spell is Scorching Ray, which deals 4d6 damage if he hits it with a ranged touch attack - an average of 14 damage. Not too shabby.

Now the second ability of the monster comes to play. Magic sponge. If the mage hits it, he gets a -1 penalty to his caster level for 24 hours, no save. This also knocks out his access to 2nd level spells, and he still has 7 damage he needs to deal.

Let's say the wizard next takes out Burning hands. (I'm taking spells out of core, since it's easier than to shuffle through all the splat books. I'm sure there are better spells.) 2d4 damage, averages as 5. Damnit! Still one or two more damage to deal. I guess you'll have to sacrifice ALL of your spellcasting for the day and spend another Burning Hands. But hey, at least the little beast is dead, right?

If you're lucky, yes. If it summoned another one of it's kin, not so. Now you have to fight off another one. Without the spells. And it might summon another one as well - and as a standard action.

I believe that the CR should either be raised, or the monster nerfed. As it is, if it's played by a determined DM, it may well result in TPK. At ECL 3.

Anyone with a +1 Flaming (or icy, or shocking) weapon will take it down in a couple of hits, because of the elemental damage applied. Since the weapon in question is not a caster, no one cares about the caster nerf. Also, vials of acid, thunderstones, and other alchemical items can take it down quickly

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 03:15 PM
Similarly, psionics are explicitly excluded.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-16, 03:21 PM
Fax, set up the fight, and I'll do it. I didn't look at your monsters, I think it would be more fun to fight something that you have no freakin clue how to hurt than something you already know what ACs and vulnerabilities you are aiming for. After all, isn't that the primary purpose of homebrew? To rekindle that helpless feeling the first time you faught a troll and no matter what you did, IT KEPT FREAKING GETTING UP. That was a priceless moment for me, but unfortunately, doesn't happen much anymore, since I've done a lot of DMing, and have almost every monster in the MMI-V memorized, at least things like strenghts and special vulnerabilities.

If my guys die horribly, not much loss. I'm expecting something epic from you though. The bar has been set!

Roll your knowledge in the fight. Here it is, btw.

Vortling
2009-01-16, 03:25 PM
I have a CR 6 readily available. Most of my other stuff is in the 12-17 range.

I should have a level 5 party here shortly. I've got an interesting idea brewing here.

Adumbration
2009-01-16, 04:10 PM
Anyone with a +1 Flaming (or icy, or shocking) weapon will take it down in a couple of hits, because of the elemental damage applied. Since the weapon in question is not a caster, no one cares about the caster nerf. Also, vials of acid, thunderstones, and other alchemical items can take it down quickly

Exactly how many ECL 2, if we're following the CR system, are carrying around +2 equivalent bonus weapons? Those things are expensive. Vials of acid and alchemist fire would take them down - but unless you're planning specifically for an encounter like this, how often do you realistically lug around stuff like that?



Maybe raised as a solo encounter, but form their discription, I'd say that they are intended to accompany something bigger. Tack on 6 of them to an EL12 encounter, and it won't really raise the mechanical EL very much, since they are such low CR, but they will dramatically increase the difficulty of it because they'll absorb the first 6 single target spells, or maybe more, and impose a pretty decent hit to everyone's CL while something bigger and meaner actually does the rend n tearing.

Another proof that they're CR is off. If adding a monster ups the difficulty significantly without upping the CR and thus the experience and rewards gained, it is not balanced.


Similarly, psionics are explicitly excluded.

Compare this CR 2 monster to other of equivalent challenge ratings:
Lantern Archon. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm#lanternArchon) Is this impossible to kill, exempting few specialized tactics? No.
An imp; (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#imp) easy. Compare the DR and fast healing to those of the polytrotos. Just look at 'em. Those are appropriate immunities and resistances for a CR 2 creature.

I could go on. I also think that giving these creatures a level adjustment - and thus making them available for PCs is a bad, bad idea.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-16, 04:11 PM
Shneekey's Smashers vs Orange Slaad and Purple Slaad (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5651799&posted=1#post5651799)

Come one, come all! For your viewing pleasure.

EDIT: the timing out is making this a pain. Have to resend sometimes three or four times. Still... let's hope they fail their saves. This can be a one hit KO...

Adumbration
2009-01-16, 04:42 PM
EDIT: the timing out is making this a pain. Have to resend sometimes three or four times. Still... let's hope they fail their saves. This can be a one hit KO...

Before any important posts, these days, I open the main forum in a separate window to see if the connection works. Especially if the post contains rolls - for me they've been messed up sometimes.

Keld Denar
2009-01-16, 04:43 PM
And, back from lunch. I've posted in both Fax and Afro's threads. I think Faxes guys are pretty well screwed. Liam rolled crappy to hit, but they are still flat footed. Issendir rolled REALLY WELL, on his Empowered Split Ray of Enfeeblement, and I think both should hit, given that its a flat footed touch AC, and 15 points on the Drachen is pretty..../shudder.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-16, 04:48 PM
Well, the Banishment didn't go as expected. I thought I was going to get the Orange one and put the beat down on the Purple one. But the one with the lower will save and no SR survived when the one with the higher Will save and fairly obnoxious SR (SR 25 vs my caster level 12) went poof.

Not out of the woods yet, though... the Orange Slaad can still do enough damage in one round to kill someone outright. Fortunately, my tank didn't charge, so his AC remains roughly the same (-2 due to size)

Rei_Jin
2009-01-16, 05:05 PM
Gri'aule, the Rainbow Servant of Bahamut (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102882)

Rajura, Ordained Champion of Heironeous (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102883)

Gaumardas, Fist of Raziels Fury (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102880)

Tripitaka, Hidden blade of Kharash (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=102881)

I call this The A-Team


Rei_Jin, I don't envy you this trial. Interesting party, btw.

Combat:

The A Team vs. two Dying Lamenti (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5217281#post5217281)

Special consideration:

The monster can't use its rampage ability since there are no corridors.

No Knowledge check will avail your characters to its Fragile Neck. Wait until either the fourth round or the first round after a character has taken damage from its breath weapon before taking advantage of that weakness.

Well, we'll get onto this fight when you and I are both available.

BTW, why do you say it's an interesting party? What in specific?

Oh, and Fax? I'm happy to test out a CR20 for you... after we do this fight.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-16, 05:36 PM
Heh, I didn't even see your conceed post.

Wouldn't have mattered, Pip would have one-rounded the Slaad the next turn anyways. Assassin's Stance is +2d6, and with Theo flanking for him, it was scr00d.

Yea, you kinda put the wrong encounter up in front of these guys. This was an encounter they were specifically prepared for. They are particularly paranoid about Will saves, so everyone's got an insane will save. Bob is a Slayer, they get +4 vs mind affecting. In three more levels, it would have been flat immunity.

In a typical encounter vs non-outsiders, Theo would have cast Recitation, giving a further +3 to all resists, then Bob would have Expansioned, and Sam would have Hasted, and Pip would have likely used a Grease wand vs an opponent, then dropped it and pulled his handaxe. Then the opponents come closer, Bob charges, if that doesn't kill it, Pip pounces, using Island of Blades to ensure flanking, and finishes it off. He can sneak attack both golems and constructs, so no help there.

This is a pretty mean party.

Keld Denar
2009-01-16, 05:43 PM
Hmmm, I think I might have optimized my group a little bit much. My first round with Fax's steam guys involved 3 of my team buffing, then my wizard teleporting most of the group up to within facemelting range, and then my primary melee stepping forward and blasting the bajubus out of one of the guys, while the wizard dropped a swift action Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement to neft the other baddy so bad he needed almost a 20 to hit with primary attacks.

Thats a strat I leared when I used to play high level Living Optimization, errr, Living Greyhawk. We called it Port n Pwn because there aren't many ways to get pounce in LG, and that ensures that a well built melee can get his full attack. Liam's full attack at level 11, while PAing for 2 and fully buffed, was doing 1d8+30+6d6 fire, averaging almost 200 if all hit. RAWR

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 05:44 PM
Alrighty; I'll simply have to come up with something more dangerous.

Notyhing reliant on Will saves, evidently.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-16, 05:47 PM
Well, I think you've got a fairly optimized party, and my pair are a little over-CRed. The Cyaega Steambeast has 10HD, DR 10/adamantine, and is generally a sniper-type. The Steamdraken has 12HD, DR 15/starmetal, and is generally a tanker-type. At CR 12 and 13 each, they could probably use some more HD or less CR: probably the former in both cases.

Vortling
2009-01-16, 05:47 PM
I give you "The Facts of Life". ECL 6 all factotum party.

Alex (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103170)
Bertrard (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103179)
Cerric (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103187)
Diriven (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103193)

Soon to be going up against any monsters Fax and Afro want to throw at them.

Saph
2009-01-16, 05:50 PM
Alrighty; I'll simply have to come up with something more dangerous.

Notyhing reliant on Will saves, evidently.

I do think that in the long run limiting the power of the PCs works better than coming up with more and more deadly monsters.

The problem with the arms-race approach is that it ends up making the game inaccessible to everyone else. Some guy comes into one of these games with a 'normal' PC and gets killed instantly.

- Saph

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 05:54 PM
I tried limiting their power level, and still faced a level 1 party where the frontliner could do over 50 damage in one round.

I meant that I'd send him an encounter at a higher CR. I dislike the arms race.

Keld Denar
2009-01-16, 05:58 PM
they could probably use some more HD

I agree. I thought constructs were supposed to have fast advancing HD, like undead?

Regardless, got anything in the EL17 range for my poor little group of ECL11s? Same for Afroakuma, and preferably something that DOESN'T have the [Evil] subtype. Keld can't even turn as well as my LG cleric, who has Sacred Armor/Shield, a Phylactery of Undead Turning, and an Ephod of Authority. During a regional finalle in Greyhawk, at level 11, he dusted a 17 HD lich and turned a 20 HD balor. RAWR POSITIVE ENERGY!

Turns out the Lich had a bunch of contingencies against getting really low on HP and a bunch of other protections against harm (Iron Guard lol!), but nothing to worded to protect it from getting DUSTED.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-16, 06:07 PM
I have some sandworms...

Draz74
2009-01-16, 06:11 PM
I give you "The Facts of Life". ECL 6 all factotum party.

Alex (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103170)
Bertrard (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103179)
Cerric (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103187)
Diriven (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=103193)

Soon to be going up against any monsters Fax and Afro want to throw at them.

It's a technicality that most DMs will agree to ignore, but WotC has ruled that Factotums can't use Reserve Feats.

And I thought my party was crazy for not having a Cleric. :smalltongue:

Saph
2009-01-16, 06:15 PM
I tried limiting their power level, and still faced a level 1 party where the frontliner could do over 50 damage in one round.

The problem with trying to set rules on what source material can and can't be used is that there's just so much material out there that there's no way you can find all the broken bits (and many are only a problem in combination). I usually find that a better way to handle character power is by end result - "use whatever you like, as long as the character's somewhere near as powerful as the rest of the party". After all, it's the end product you care about, not the bits used to make it.

These challenges are still kind of fun to watch, though. :)

- Saph

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 06:15 PM
Keld, I think I have just the thing.

Gamma board.

To fight a foe most dangerous. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5652452#post5652452)

And if anyone figures out what I've sent to kill him, please don't tell. It'll ruin the surprise.

Vortling
2009-01-16, 06:24 PM
It's a technicality that most DMs will agree to ignore, but WotC has ruled that Factotums can't use Reserve Feats.

And I thought my party was crazy for not having a Cleric. :smalltongue:

Darn. I didn't know that. As to the lack of cleric, I wanted to try something different. This party would be great at urban skill based adventures.

mregecko
2009-01-16, 06:25 PM
So, I'd like to reserve a lvl 20 spot for myself...

I have the character sheets for all of these at home, will post them probably tomorrow.

Enter, the all-female, all-arcane party:

Zisstara: Paladin2/Marshal1/Bard7/Sublime Chord2/Abjurant Champion5/Spellsword1/Fatespinner2

Zalona: Warmage5/Rainbow Servant10/Warweaver5

Zala: Spellthief1/Wizard4/Daggerspell Mage10/Abjurant Champion4/Carmendine Monk1

Zuthura: Wizard/Shadowcraft Mage (not 100% sure on this build yet, it normally would have Incantatrix, but DM fiat says nein!)

If all goes well, all of these ladies should be fairly hard to hit, AND pretty strong hitters. Any recommendations or questions are more than welcome.

-- Mr. E. Gecko

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 06:28 PM
We really should ask people whether they want to run the battle themselves or need to PbP it.

Eldariel
2009-01-16, 06:32 PM
As I said in the battle thread, I thought you'd applied it twice to the armor.

Why did nobody remind me about Faerie Mysteries Initiate? Now I have to let him get away with it. :smallannoyed:

Ì didn't think you'd allow Dragon Magazine, so I didn't give you my insufficient, yet extensive Dragon Magazine banned-list.

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 06:33 PM
:smalleek: That's from Dragon???

...I've been AFB too long. Forgotten that people would try that.

That should be a rule. In fact, wasn't it? Something about WotC-only sourcebooks?

Keld Denar
2009-01-16, 06:39 PM
Eep! My bad, didn't see that limit.

I'd probably have to totally rework the character, to make up for that glaring oversight. Do you want me to? Of all my characters, I think Issendir is the LEAST optimized. But then again, he's a wizard, and they don't have to try very hard...

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 06:43 PM
I don't know, those ridiculous Init rolls... :smallconfused:

We'll leave it for now. If they survive this battle, then something is wrong.

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 06:54 PM
Alrighty - quickly, someone give me a list of the best collection of buffs to stack on something. Have to be able to be removed from the area of the caster.

Eldariel
2009-01-16, 06:56 PM
Zuthura: Shadowcrafter [Underdark] is the original complement for Shadowcraft Mage; I suggest trying that. In the Shadowcrafting-portition, it does quite well by comparison.

Keld Denar
2009-01-16, 06:59 PM
I don't know, those ridiculous Init rolls... :smallconfused:

Hey, I blame the forum roller! Kinda helps when between 2 characters, I grant my entire party +12 on init, and then MOST of them have something that boosts init on top of that, like Improved Init, or a high dex, or a Hummingbird familar, or something like that. Issendir has the Elven Wiz racial sub which doubles his familar's bonus, so he's sittin on +8 just from the familiar.

Going first in D&D is one of the most important things you can do. My group does it well...

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-16, 06:59 PM
Alrighty - quickly, someone give me a list of the best collection of buffs to stack on something. Have to be able to be removed from the area of the caster.

Greater Magic Weapon
Magic Vestment
Haste
Superior Resistance
Foresight
Unholy Aura

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 07:02 PM
Good, good, anything else stack with those?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-16, 07:03 PM
Good, good, anything else stack with those?

Foresight is Personal

Mind Blank
Resist Energy

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 07:05 PM
Looks good. Those plus a few other abilities, this is going to be the fight from hell.

Keld Denar
2009-01-16, 07:05 PM
I have a VERY bad feeling about this....:smalleek:

MeklorIlavator
2009-01-16, 07:07 PM
I'd like to throw my hat into the ring. I have a couple CR 5's around. Actually, Now that I look at them, Fax might be the best person to test them with, as currently two of them are using his Homebrew(the Holy Word and Ocean tempest Disciplines). I could change them, to better adhere to the rules of the challenge if needed.

Right now, they are:
Saul Weller, Human Cruesader*(Tanky Mctanktank)
Krellic Sheran, Whisper Gnome Wizard/unseen Seer(Skills+arcane magic)
Ilidan Quickfoot, Halfling Cleric/Warlock(Divine Magic+Backup Melee)
Michael Ventus, Human Swordsage*(Movement specialist, Additional Melee) OR Jaz Tellic, Halfling Warmage(BlastyMcBlast-a-lot)

*these two characters currently use some homebrew, specifically the Holy Word and Ocean tempest Disciplines by Fax Celestis. This can be removed.

I also have a level 11-ish group.
Ilidan Quickfoot, Halfling Cleric/Warlock/Eldrich Disiple(Divine Magic+Secondary Melee)
Saul Weller, Human Cruesader(Tanky Mctanktank)
Jaz Tellic, Halfling Warmage(BlastyMcBlast-a-lot)
Krellic Sheran, Whisper Gnome Wizard/rogue/Unseen Seer(Skills+arcane magic)

What? Me reuse characters? I'm insulted!:smallbiggrin:

Rei_Jin
2009-01-16, 07:08 PM
Isn't the Hummingbird Familiar from a Dragon Magazine as well? Issue number 323, if I remember correctly...

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 07:12 PM
:smallmad: If that's accurate...

Keld... :furious:

Eldariel
2009-01-16, 07:14 PM
Polymorph: Nasty Melee Form With NA + Natural Weapons (say, Cryohydra)
Barkskin
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
Blessed Aim
Shield of Faith
Shield
Greater Luminous Armor (or Greater Mage Armor if non-good)
Freedom of Movement
Air Walk
Owl's Insight
Divine Agility


off the top of my head.


:smallmad: If that's accurate...

Keld... :furious:

As he said, he'd need to rebuild the entire character without Dragon Magazines.

Rei_Jin
2009-01-16, 07:14 PM
I'm always worried when people pass off combinations they've seen used on the CharOp boards as their own, or to be used in a play test. Heck, most people don't even own the books they reference in their builds.

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 07:16 PM
Does Recitation continue to apply outside the range of the cleric?


affects all allies within the spell's area at the moment you cast it

Arbitrarity
2009-01-16, 07:17 PM
:smallmad: If that's accurate...

Keld... :furious:

Dragon 323 page 98
Hummingbird - Master gains +4 bonus in Initiative checks
Use the stats for a Thrush Familiar, which are on DMG p203

Probably accidental, since no one really looks where half the stuff on CO comes from.

At the moment you cast it sounds like it would continue to apply.


Actually, if he has the cash, a +1 Eager/+1 Warning quarterstaff is 16000, +2 untyped, +5 insight to initiative. All enhancements from Magic Item compendium.

On the other hand, it looks like you sent him against a CR 18-20, so he's screwed anyways :smallyuk:

Eldariel
2009-01-16, 07:20 PM
Does Recitation continue to apply outside the range of the cleric?

That's really up to DM interpretation, but the reasonable reading is "yes"; the spell empowers those within' X feet of the caster during the casting for the duration of the spell.

The Neoclassic
2009-01-16, 07:24 PM
Need, say, a 3rd, 4th, or 5th level party? I'm also assuming that homebrewed classes are a no-no (for obvious reasons). I could whip something up while I am procrastinating all the difficult homebrew requests I should be working on. :smalltongue: I can run the battle myself (and provide extensive notes on how it went) or PbP it, whichever works better for you.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-16, 07:25 PM
Need, say, a 3rd, 4th, or 5th level party? I'm also assuming that homebrewed classes are a no-no (for obvious reasons). I could whip something up while I am procrastinating all the difficult homebrew requests I should be working on. :smalltongue: I can run the battle myself (and provide extensive notes on how it went) or PbP it, whichever works better for you.

Depends on the homebrew, frankly.

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 07:27 PM
Second question: magic items that say "exactly as though N had cast the spell" - free action use activated? Or standard action?

Eldariel
2009-01-16, 07:29 PM
As a rule of the thumb, the only free activation magic items specifically say so, or are constantly active. Otherwise it should be a standard action. Can't think of any such item right now though so I cannot give a decisive answer; what sort of example of such an item could be found in e.g. DMG/SRD?