So, where is the Giant headed with Celia?

[Jeivar]

Sorry about starting yet another Celia thread, but at least this isn't a 'hate' one.

Anyway . . . seriously, what's Giant going to do with this character? She isn't going through any kind of arc, or growing wiser about the real world. She has no pressing role to play in the whole Gate-business. She'd be useless to the party in a combat situation. She isn't likable or tragic enough for her death to have an impact, but I don't feel it would be very satisfying either. She certainly isn't changing Haley's mind on anything. She doesn't have a relationship of any kind with any of the NPC's to be exploited for drama or story purposes.

Really, from a storytelling standpoint I see NO satisfying conclusion to her character. Having her just go back home once Roy returns, with a farewell kiss to Roy and a snide remark to Haley would just me 'meh'. No drama, no satisfaction, no tragedy, no excitement, no comedy . . .

Has anyone else been pondering this?

[Oslecamo]

She's a DMNPC to railroad the party into finally trying to get Roy ressurected, just as Miko was was railroad to get them to Azure city.

Hopefully she'll eventually die just like Miko. A perfect tragic moment, a motivation for Roy to go to the end, and a rejoice reason for Haley.

Celia won't disapear untill Roy is brought back to life and the party is whole again, then she'll carefully be removed from the story.

[Occasional Sage]

Nope, I haven't thought about it at all. I am simply following passively along with whatever plot the Giant chooses without question or concern, like a Nazi soldier following orders like a drone bee.

This thread having been Godwined, I declare it closed. :smallwink:

[Optimystik]

She's a DMNPC to railroad the party into finally trying to get Roy ressurected, just as Miko was was railroad to get them to Azure city.

Hopefully she'll eventually die just like Miko. A perfect tragic moment, a motivation for Roy to go to the end, and a rejoice reason for Haley.

Celia won't disapear untill Roy is brought back to life and the party is whole again, then she'll carefully be removed from the story.

I don't want her to necessarily *die.* Just get a nice boot to the ass. Perferably Mordenkainen's Sabatons of Dismissal.

[The Extinguisher]

She's here to help Haley with character growth. Whip her into shape. Because while she has been getting better since she got her voice back, she's still a mess of pathological lies and secrets.

She needs to learn to be a leader.

[Oslecamo]

She needs to learn to be a leader.

Or even better, she needs to learn to ressurect her party's leader ASAP instead of trying to raise her own rebel army. They spent MONTHS in Azure city. If this was a real campaign Roy's player would probably be very pissed off at the whole situation, seeing the rest of the party not only divide but also go in all kind of sidequests while he rots away at a cart. They even raided Redcloack's home for the air refresher, but nobody bothered to look for a scroll of raise dead or something similar in all that time.

[Nerdanel]

She's been the anti-Belkar, of opposite alignment but still a horrible team-player. She's been the object lesson that Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil can both be counterproductive to the party unity when they act unreasonable. She has also showcased that Haley isn't the leader Roy was.

Now, I think I could really appreciate a good scene of Celia getting killed or otherwise removed from the party.

Wishful thinking/speculation:
She would make a good target for V to kill for a bad/mistaken reason and thus further V's character development.

[Fish]

Cut in half cut in half cut in half, pleeeeeaase cut her in half.

[JaxGaret]

Cut in half cut in half cut in half, pleeeeeaase cut her in half.

Thanks for that, I had a good chuckle.

I certainly hope that this whole Celia-is-annoying thing gets milked by the Giant for all its worth.

[[TS] Shadow]

Celia just did something for the plot: brought Haley back into the guild and smacked her with a huge-*** debt to pay off. She also saved Haley from Bozz, and got the guild to agree to help steal back Roy's corpse. She's done enough, I'd say.

[Trazoi]

She's a DMNPC to railroad the party into finally trying to get Roy ressurected, just as Miko was was railroad to get them to Azure city.
That's my take too. Her primary function is as a plot enabler. Her secondary function is provide tension within the group and get Haley to reevaluate herself.


Celia won't disapear untill Roy is brought back to life and the party is whole again, then she'll carefully be removed from the story.
I'm hoping this is what happens. Celia will be out of place if she tags along with a reunited OotS. I'm not certain as to how she will be removed though - whether it's as simple as heading back to law school or something more permanent...


Hopefully she'll eventually die just like Miko. A perfect tragic moment, a motivation for Roy to go to the end, and a rejoice reason for Haley.
Eh, I'm in two minds about a possible Celia death. It does seem entirely plausible the way the story is heading. But while it could be a well presented dark moment and a motivation for Roy, tiding up neat ends, it's not as classically tragic as Miko. Plus it's a bit odd having a third female extra die off: first Miko, then Therkla, now Celia? Plus the two weeks of gloating "Rejoice, Celia is dead!" threads in the forum would kill the mood. :smallfrown:

And if Haley starts rejoicing at the death of Celia, that single act would kill my current like of her character.

[Optimystik]

Plus the two weeks of gloating "Rejoice, Celia is dead!" threads in the forum would kill the mood. :smallfrown:

Oh, I don't think it would be more than a week and a half at most :smallwink:

Anyway, Like I said before I don't want her to die... especially since death is much more final for her than anyone else in the strip. :smallfrown:

[David Argall]

The odds are that Celia goes back to school and that is pretty much the last we see of her. Last time she was gone for 200 strips.

Now she might decide she doesn't want such a violent boyfriend and leave more permanently, but this will mean Roy gets a new girlfriend, and her critics won't like that one either.

I don't see her getting diced. It happens in some stories, but it doesn't seem to fit here.

[Trazoi]

Anyway, Like I said before I don't want her to die... especially since death is much more final for her than anyone else in the strip. :smallfrown:
True, but it depends on whether the plot needs an extra kick of drama. I'm not sure Celia waving goodbye and wishing Roy good luck has enough of a kick to it. But then again, we've got Therkla dying, V turning mad or evil, Belkar turning two faced, and who knows what else? A simple farewell might be fine lest we suffer from drama overload. Having Therkla and Celia die would seem a bit, well, repetitive.

Of course, Celia breaking up with Roy (or vice versa) is an interesting solution too.

[Optimystik]

Or - and this is a wild and crazy thought - she could stop whining, join the Order and put those sorcerer levels to some good use. Wishful thinking, I know. David's prediction her being Put On a Bus seems far more likely.

[Andre Fairchilde]

I finally just picked up War and XPs this week which is nice to see some insight into Rich's story writing.

My opinion is that now Haley must deal with all her issues - her dad, the debt, etc. without running from her problems. Celia helped enable that plotline - and the eventual trip to save her dad as well as bring Roy back.

[tcrudisi]

She's here to help Haley with character growth. Whip her into shape. Because while she has been getting better since she got her voice back, she's still a mess of pathological lies and secrets.

She needs to learn to be a leader.

Since she got her voice back, has Haley been a pathological liar? I'll admit that my memory is horrible, but I can't remember any recent lies since she's taken over control. Just because one has secrets does not mean that they cannot be a great leader. All of us have secrets. What is wrong with Haley having them? Here's the thing: sometimes even the best leaders get someone who won't listen to them. Could Haley be a better leader? Sure, but so could Hitler, and as far as leading abilities go, he was pretty darn good.


Or even better, she needs to learn to ressurect her party's leader ASAP instead of trying to raise her own rebel army. They spent MONTHS in Azure city. If this was a real campaign Roy's player would probably be very pissed off at the whole situation, seeing the rest of the party not only divide but also go in all kind of sidequests while he rots away at a cart. They even raided Redcloack's home for the air refresher, but nobody bothered to look for a scroll of raise dead or something similar in all that time.

I'm sure she did look for that scroll. It's not like they tend to be laying around, though. And in all fairness, what would you have done? If I was Roy's player, I would have asked Haley to do exactly what Haley did: "Hold tight and wait for V and Durkon to find us and rez me." The only reason this plan wasn't tactfully sound was because of that aura thing which prevented scrying.


[B]Hopefully she'll eventually die just like Miko. A perfect tragic moment, a motivation for Roy to go to the end, and a rejoice reason for Haley.

I don't know that Haley will be rejoicing. Haley's still a very good person; if Celia were to die, she might feel relieved and then immediately feel guilty that she felt relieved. If Haley felt strongly enough then Celia would be dead. Who cares if Celia can fly when Haley's an archer?


Wishful thinking/speculation:
She would make a good target for V to kill for a bad/mistaken reason and thus further V's character development.


I was thinking something very similar. I was having some "wishful thinking" of my own. I was trying to come up with 4 words that would give her ultimate arcane power and result in the death of Celia. I know, guys. The chance of that happening is exactly 0%, but it is wishful thinking.

I did happen across that thread that shows all the character's appearance count and Celia is just a few below Miko now (5 or 6, if I remember correctly). I just thought that was interesting.

[MickJay]

Hmm, since Vaarsuvius left for an indeterminate amount of time, the mostly-reunited order (everyone but V) would be short of a magic user, so Celia could be stuffed in V's place, at least temporarily. Not without some serious talk about how she should behave and not without a change of attitude, but still...

[JaxGaret]

Roy gets a new girlfriend, and her critics won't like that one either.

You think that people don't like Celia simply because she's Roy's girlfriend? That's odd.

[Assassin89]

Cut in half cut in half cut in half, pleeeeeaase cut her in half.

I doubt Odin would be willing to do such a deed. And by Odin I mean the one from Final Fantasy.

[Lunaya]

Wishful thinking/speculation:
She would make a good target for V to kill for a bad/mistaken reason and thus further V's character development.


Please, please, please yes! :smallsigh:

[amuletts]

Maybe Celia hasn't been through much character development herselves, but she is advancing it for other characters. Anyway, she's a fairy-thingy. They live a LONG time, so generally don't change very fast.

[OOTS_Supporter]

Am I the only Celia supporter here?

WHY exactly should she die? She had a legitmate reason for raising the Theives Guild, it was to help Roy.



SHe is an anti-Belkar NPC. So, because of that reason alone, she should die?

If SHE did die, isn't she Lawlful Good? Isn't ROY Lawful Good? If she dies, ROy will just spend MORE time in the Afterlife.

I DON'T want to see Celia die. She needs to learn how to live in the real world, but killing her isn't exaclty going to help this siuation at all. It will just make everything WORSE. I mean, Celia was admitteldy annoying, but she was USEFUL

And people say she hasn't said anything funny. Must I comment? Different jokes are funny for different people.

God, why the hate?

[Kish]

She's mean to Haley, seems to be most of it.

[Darklord Bright]

Am I the only Celia supporter here?

WHY exactly should she die? She had a legitmate reason for raising the Theives Guild, it was to help Roy.



SHe is an anti-Belkar NPC. So, because of that reason alone, she should die?

If SHE did die, isn't she Lawlful Good? Isn't ROY Lawful Good? If she dies, ROy will just spend MORE time in the Afterlife.

I DON'T want to see Celia die. She needs to learn how to live in the real world, but killing her isn't exaclty going to help this siuation at all. It will just make everything WORSE. I mean, Celia was admitteldy annoying, but she was USEFUL

And people say she hasn't said anything funny. Must I comment? Different jokes are funny for different people.

God, why the hate?

Because she's insufferable and thinks her moral code is the only one that matters?

She's suddenly become very irritating, the only reason I can tell is that the change of lifestyle has put her under some stress. I don't hate her, I just want her to go away.

Also, if she dies, she dies, if you know what I mean.

[JaxGaret]

If SHE did die, isn't she Lawlful Good? Isn't ROY Lawful Good? If she dies, ROy will just spend MORE time in the Afterlife.


Also, if she dies, she dies, if you know what I mean.

Just in case you don't know what Darklord means: Celia's creature type is Outsider. When Outsiders die, they don't go to any kind of afterlife. They just die.

[hamishspence]

According to her, yes.

According to normal D&D rules, she can be brought back, but its harder than with normal mortals.

Maybe OOTS changes it? Oddly Haleys reason for not killing Sabine was the assumption that she would get reincarnated easily because she was away from her home plane, which was a trait of previous editions rather than 3.5.

[Kish]

According to her, yes.
Not quite. According to her, she can't be resurrected. Whether that means "she'd cease to exist" or "her ticket to the Lawful Good afterlife would be one-way" is another question, but it seems thematically quite unlikely to me that she doesn't have an immortal soul.

[Optimystik]

Not quite. According to her, she can't be resurrected. Whether that means "she'd cease to exist" or "her ticket to the Lawful Good afterlife would be one-way" is another question, but it seems thematically quite unlikely to me that she doesn't have an immortal soul.

It means she'd cease to exist, for all practical purposes. Outsiders do have souls, but their souls and their bodies are one and the same. That's why they don't need to eat or sleep. When they die the soul dissipates (note Roy's comment in #610 about Celia getting sneak attacked "into vapor") which is why they are so hard to revive.

Only True Resurrection can raise Outsiders, and that's a 9th-level spell.

[Niley]

Meh. I don't think Celia will remain in the strip for longer than 50 strips more. At least I hope so.

[hamishspence]

Complete Divine explained that the soul of an outsider (or elemental) dissolves into its plane ("material" is still there, but diffused) the spells mentioned "sift through the plane and reconstitute the soul"

Its about the only 3.5 source going into souls, undead, afterlife, etc in any depth.

Interestingly petitioners are Less exemplary than just plain "souls" are- they are in petitioner form because they have more lessons to learn.

[Optimystik]

Source for Outsider's body and soul being one unit: here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typessubtypes.htm)

"Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as Raise Dead, Reincarnate, and Resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as Limited Wish, Wish, Miracle, or True Resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be."

[Kish]

Meh. I don't think Celia will remain in the strip for longer than 50 strips more. At least I hope so.
I think the mods would probably frown on me saving this statement and reminding you of it right after Celia is in strip #673.

[Optimystik]

I think the mods would probably frown on me saving this statement and reminding you of it right after Celia is in strip #673.

Which is a facetious way of saying you intend to do just that, so why mention mods at all? :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

that was direct copy of MM. The other sources were written post-DMG. Maybe Wizards backed away from it. Or, maybe the body returns to the plane, then dissipates.

But either way though, several post-MM sources modify that.

[Scarlet Knight]

My guess is a combination of what several posters have thought.

Celia pinch-hits for Vaarsuvius. Perhaps this will set up jokes where Elan & Roy have to try and keep the peace in the party between the women.

When V returns, Celia decides she's tired of trying & her code won't allow her to travel with people who basically are always in combat of some type.

[MickJay]

If V returns. There would be little reason for making V leave if it wasn't going to be a significant plot element. Currently V is half-crazed and well on his way to becoming evil, lack of moderating influence by rest of the Order will not help, either. I'm guessing he might even become an antagonist in the long run, unless something changes significantly.

Events with Celia look a little like a build up for her character development and possibly joining the Order.

[hamishspence]

I'm inclind to say V has moved a little bit closer to evil, But some say V's act was completely non-evil, and wouldn't have caused even a paladin to fall, because Good results + Good motivation make any act Good.

[MickJay]

I'm inclind to say V has moved a little bit closer to evil, But some say V's act was completely non-evil, and wouldn't have caused even a paladin to fall, because Good results + Good motivation make any act Good.

Killing of Kubota may have both good and bad implications (we have no idea what the actual repercussions are/were), and V's motivation was dubious at best. I mean, killing people because they obstruct you somehow is generally considered evil (regardless of how eloquently you argue that the killed person was really bothersome, or even deserving death). Result? Bad guy is dead and gone. Elan, a definitely good character, found this to be evil nonetheless. Besides, V didn't even know what Kubota had done, if Elan had him tied up for , e.g, stealing food rations or something similarly "light", Kubota would end up getting killed as well. While I don't think V is now ~evil~, he's on a right track to becoming evil.

If killing of Kubota wasn't evil, then Belkar isn't evil either.

[hamishspence]

I said similar things. Usual answer was "V knows Elan better than that" or that death of a murderer was "for the greater good"

the base motivation was apparently "removal of major villain"

I thought V's comments sounded a bit like after-the-fact self-justification though.

[MickJay]

I thought V's comments sounded a bit like after-the-fact self-justification though.

For me it was a prime example of such justification. "For the greater good" is usually the motivation behind truly heinous crimes (I mean, the prime example by WotC of an act immediately changing alignment to evil is burning of a village with its inhabitants to prevent spreading of disease. For the greater good, huh).

Sorry about getting off topic here.

[hamishspence]

Celia's motivation could be, in a sense, similar. Greater Good- Rezzed roy, Rezzed the victims of the "misunderstanding" between Haley and her employers, justified the minor evil of putting Haley in debt.

[Optimystik]

I really hope Celia doesn't take V's place. Unless they go up against all constucts/undead, or face enemies where evocations aren't required, she'll have to violate her principles to fight. That would pretty much fly in the face of the last 20 or so strips.

If she does take V's place, then we need something substantial to change her worldview and make her realize that violence is necessary at times.

[TheBST]

If she does take V's place, then we need something substantial to change her worldview and make her realize that violence is necessary at times.

If there's one major philosophical point to this comic, it's probably that moral absolutism is a bad idea. I wouldn't count on such a hypothetical change happening though- her morality, inconvenient as it is, seems to be the one thing keeping Celia sane in the nonsensical world of D&D adventuring. Plus after almost being killed several times and having her boyfriend die, what else could you throw at her?

[Ebonsword]

I thought that it was pretty obvious that Celia and Haley are extremely attracted to each other, but too embarassed to reveal their true feelings. This repressed desire expresses itself in their frequent and passionate arguments.

Rest assured, in a strip in the near future, Haley and Celia will be yelling at each other over the way that Celia got Haley into debt. They will be inches from each other's face, flushed with emotion. Then Haley will snap, grab Celia in her arms, and kiss her with all the heat of lust.

Seriously.




Why are you all looking at me like that? :smalleek:

[Optimystik]

Plus after almost being killed several times and having her boyfriend die, what else could you throw at her?

She hasn't had to deal with Roy being disappointed in her yet, and she also hasn't killed a living thing (by accident or to save herself, either one.) One or both of those would be a great way to kick off the Angst Express.

[Lord Seth]

She's a DMNPC to railroad the party into finally trying to get Roy ressurected, just as Miko was was railroad to get them to Azure city.No, all Celia did was make it take longer to get Roy resurrected. She didn't railroad the party into getting Roy resurrected, she railroaded them into having to go through a sidequest and THEN (presumably) get Roy resurrected. Roy would've likely been resurrected about 40 strips ago if not for her.

[Kish]

No, all Celia did was make it take longer to get Roy resurrected. She didn't railroad the party into getting Roy resurrected, she railroaded them into having to go through a sidequest and THEN (presumably) get Roy resurrected. Roy would've likely been resurrected about 40 strips ago if not for her.
Haley would be still cooling her heels in Azure City if not for her, unless Xykon/Redcloak/Tsukiko had smashed the Resistance yet, in which case Haley would be dead.

[MadScientistMat]

From a future storytelling standpoint, I could think of two different possibilities that could make use of her irritating way of assuming every person is basically good, rational, and can be negotiated with to get a solution that benefits everyone.

Option one: No character development - at least not for her. Here's how this one might play out.

At some point, she runs across a character that nobody else - not any members of the Order, not any of the readers - thinks can be dealt with peacefully. Everyone else is certain the only solution is going to be to kill this antagonist. Somehow, against all odds, Celia is able to reform it. Possibly by making some sort of extreme sacrifice on her part. This leaves others with the astonished question, "What if she's really right and not as naive as we think?"

I don't see that happening, though.

Option two: A bit of character development for her...

Celica runs across some antagonist that she's certain she can find a way to appease without bloodshed; maybe even some of the Order's members think she might be right. She negotiates some sort of deal with it and thinks that the problem is settled. However, she proves to have about as much negotiation skill as Neville Chamberlain. The deal she cuts with this antagonist paves the way for this antagonist to do something far more horrible than what he was originally planning, and Celica realizes that it was entirely her fault that this happened. She has a terrible breakdown, goes into a rage, and kills whatever it was she negotiated with. We just need some sort of bloodthirsty, irrational antagonist that can't be negotiated with...

...you think Belkar might fit the bill there?

(Two Epileptic Trees for the price of one under that spoiler above!)

[MickJay]

Epileptic tree #1 is (at this point) theoretically possible as a direct result of Celia's contract with the Guild.

[Lord Seth]

Haley would be still cooling her heels in Azure City if not for her, unless Xykon/Redcloak/Tsukiko had smashed the Resistance yet, in which case Haley would be dead.True, true, I forgot about that, though it still does mean that she railroaded the story into getting Roy resurrected (good) then railroaded it into a side plot that delayed said resurrection (bad). It honestly just furthers my claim that her main purpose in the story is just to be a walking plot device.

[MadScientistMat]

Adding a further possibility to my first far fetched theory, that of no character development for Celia, that makes it even more absurd:

If there's one character who seemingly can't be negotiated with, but has a shot at redemption, it's Redcloak. He's capable of quite evil actions, but has an undertandable, even sympathetic motive, and he's been capable of realizing he's made monsterously evil choices and admitting they're wrong. Celica's someone who could quite likely sympathize with Redcloak's cause. If they met, it's pretty likely that she would try to convince Redcloak he could and should achieve his goals by peaceful means. I could see three possible outcomes for that: Redcloak manages some sort of feat of redemption that persuades the gods that goblins are worthy of being counted in the same category as humans and elves (much like he'd learned about hobgoblins...), Celica realizes that Redcloak has a cause that can't be worked out peacefully, or by far the most likely, the dialog between them goes nowhere and neither changes.