When will Belkar betray everyone?

[JonahFalcon]

Just a reminder (http://www.geocities.com/vacred_dotal/chaoevil.htm). Roy still isn't around to keep Belkar in his place, and his Kilonazis are going up and up.

Remember something about chaotic evil:

Rarely keeps his word. Has no honor.
Lies and cheats anyone.
Most certainly attacks and kills an unarmed foe (those are the best kind!).
Will hurt and/or kill an innocent without a second thought. (Or for pleasure).
Uses torture to extract information and pleasure.
Will kill for sheer pleasure.
Is likely to help someone only on a whim.
Despises honor and authority and self-discipline. Views them as weaknesses.
Does not work well in a group. Constantly vying for power and/or command.
Will always take dirty money, etc.
Will betray a friend. After all, you can always get another friend.
Associates mostly with other evil alignments.

Or did you just think Belkar was a cute guy with some nasty quirks?

Can't wait for when Belkar dies and has to talk to HIS rep as Roy did his. "So, you were under the command of a Lawful Good character and didn't once try to kill him?"

[Assassin89]

Belkar was willing to betray Haley in 520, but then he remembered how much he was looking forward to fling an angry housecat in someone's soft and unprotected face.
Belkar then reconsiders in 521 when he realizes that Xykon could have removed his MoJ, but Mr. Scruffy would make Belkar an unreliable member of team evil.

[Optimystik]

CE doesn't betray at random - at least, the sane ones don't. Belkar would only do that if he saw substantial gain in doing so (e.g. realizing Xykon might remove his Mark of Justice.)

Now that he's faking growth, he's even less likely to do something like this, because he needs his party around to cover for him while he's out killing things.

[JonahFalcon]

Belkar was willing to betray Haley in 520, but then he remembered how much he was looking forward to fling an angry housecat in someone's soft and unprotected face.
Belkar then reconsiders in 521 when he realizes that Xykon could have removed his MoJ

Yeah? So? Sort of like a CE's version of impotence. There's less and less getting in Belkar's way of betraying everyone.

He's Chaotic Evil, not Chaotic Cool or Chaotic Cute.

[JonahFalcon]

Now that he's faking growth, he's even less likely to do something like this, because he needs his party around to cover for him while he's out killing things.

Oh, he's even MORE likely to betray the more he fakes growth.

[BRC]

Belkar would never betray everyone. It simply won't happen. Oh sure, he may betray the azurites, the thieves guild, team evil, the rest of the order, ect ect, but Belkar would never, under any circumstances, betray mister scruffy.

[JonahFalcon]

Belkar would never betray everyone. It simply won't happen. Oh sure, he may betray the azurites, the thieves guild, team evil, the rest of the order, ect ect, but Belkar would never, under any circumstances, betray mister scruffy.

Unless Belkar was really hungry and there wasn't any food around.

[Liwen]

Remember, alignement does not equals absolute. Belkar may actually never leave the order or betray them become he likes being part of that group. He felt saddned when Haley decided to kick him out, probably realizing he was loosing his companions trust and respect.

Beside, they are many kinds of chaotic evils. Some only choose to disobey orders they find stupid and feel no remorse for killing. Anti-heroes are often CE, and yet they still save the *&%$?&$ wolrd in the end.

[BRC]

Belkar may do alot in the name of fulfilling his base desires, but he would not harm Scruffy. Besides, Wacky Old Dude told him to take care of scruffy, and Belkar likes Wacky Old Dude.

[Optimystik]

Oh, he's even MORE likely to betray the more he fakes growth.

How do you figure? His goal now is to get away with murder. He's much more likely to accomplish that as a member of an adventuring party than solo.

And even before his epiphany, he liked having them around (#42).

[Kaytara]

"Betray everyone"?

Belkar is Chaotic Evil. He is not a Being of Pure Chaotic Evil. The typical Chaotic Evil traits are no checklist of inevitable things to come. Just because he's Chaotic Evil does not mean he is possesses every single one of those traits in complete, uncontrollable abundance. He does not have to be extremely Chaotic Evil in every regard.

I'm not saying he won't betray them at some point, but saying that he MUST because that's what Chaotic Evils tend to do is a stretch.

[JonahFalcon]

"Betray everyone"?

Belkar is Chaotic Evil. He is not a Being of Pure Chaotic Evil. The typical Chaotic Evil traits are no checklist of inevitable things to come. Just because he's Chaotic Evil does not mean he is possesses every single one of those traits in complete, uncontrollable abundance. He does not have to be extremely Chaotic Evil in every regard.

I'm not saying he won't betray them at some point, but saying that he MUST because that's what Chaotic Evils tend to do is a stretch.

You mean Belkar hasn't tried to betray the Order before? Shall we do a little research?

Belkar's biggest fantasy is being head honcho.

Please stop acting like Belkar hasn't done any of the above traits already.

Why do you assume Belkar is interested in the welfare of his party?

[JaxGaret]

Please stop acting like Belkar hasn't done any of the above traits already.

Nobody is saying that. What you are missing is that just because something is on the list of CE traits, it doesn't mean that a CE character must do such a thing.


Why do you assume Belkar is interested in the welfare of his party?

Who's assuming that? Belkar is out for Belkar. If that means not betraying anyone, then so be it.

[[TS] Shadow]

Give us examples when Belkar has betrayed the party. You brought it up: prove your point.

Belkar has never once betrayed the party. He has threatened to betray, disobeyed orders, and been rude to the party, but he wouldn't turn them unless he can gain something from it. Now, he's even less likely to. If you read 622, he wants to gain the party's trust so that he can get around them and kill people. Killing is Belkar's sport. It was too easy before, and thus isn't as fun. Keeping the party around is an easy way to keep killing challenging, and therefore more enjoyable.

[JaxGaret]

Shadow;5642739']Give us examples when Belkar has betrayed the party. You brought it up: prove your point.

Well there is the time that Nale hit Belkar with the Charm Person. Extenuating circumstances, but a betrayal nonetheless.


Killing is Belkar's sport. It was too easy before, and thus isn't as fun. Keeping the party around is an easy way to keep killing challenging, and therefore more enjoyable.

This is also remarked upon by Belkar previously, saying that getting away with stuff while a Paladin was around is the ultimate.

[[TS] Shadow]

Well there is the time that Nale hit Belkar with the Charm Person. Extenuating circumstances, but a betrayal nonetheless.

Forgot about that. But still: betrayal is a knowing and willing thing. That can be summed up as a "mistake," for lack of a better word.

[Zevox]

"Betray everyone"?

Belkar is Chaotic Evil. He is not a Being of Pure Chaotic Evil. The typical Chaotic Evil traits are no checklist of inevitable things to come. Just because he's Chaotic Evil does not mean he is possesses every single one of those traits in complete, uncontrollable abundance. He does not have to be extremely Chaotic Evil in every regard.

I'm not saying he won't betray them at some point, but saying that he MUST because that's what Chaotic Evils tend to do is a stretch.
This. Being Chaotic Evil does not mean you do everything that someone tosses onto a list of traits generally associated with characters of that alignment. Alignment is not a straight jacket, it's a set of broad categories. Just like not every Lawful Good character has to be as preachy or anal as Miko, not every Chaotic Evil character has to betray his allies just because he can. That would be stupid, and though Belkar's no genius, he's not that dumb.

If Belkar were to decide to betray the Order, it would be because it benefits him. A prime time for him to do this already passed when Tsukiko offered him a job. Fortunately or unfortunately, Belkar failed to realize that Xykon would likely be able to remove his Mark, and so, not knowing the biggest benefit he'd get from taking the deal, decided his desire to toss Mister Scruffy in someone's face was more important than a job on Team Evil. Had he realized Xykon could do that, he most likely would have taken the job then and there and gone from protagonist to villain.

As-is, sticking with the Order benefits Belkar. Where a group of adventurers go, violent conflict tends to follow, and Belkar loves that. If nothing else he's guaranteed to cross paths with level-appropriate random monsters every so often if he sticks with the group, and given their current goal of stopping a major threat to the world, he's more or less guaranteed far more than that for the forseeable future. And with these conflicts comes loot, and from that loot comes the rest of what Belkar likes - good food and whores. The whole matter with Mark was a big problem, but that's been resolved, and with Azure City in Goblin hands and his chunk of the Order no longer working for Shojo or the Paladins, it isn't likely to return. So as-is, he has a pretty sweet set up, and every reason to stick with the Order, fake character development or no.

Zevox

[David Argall]

Well there is the time that Nale hit Belkar with the Charm Person. Extenuating circumstances, but a betrayal nonetheless.


Well, it doesn't really qualify as betrayal. It did however mean that betrayal was not at all out of the question.
Nale was controlling Belkar and without his influence, Belkar would not have tried anything. But the fact he was able to influence Belkar means that Belkar would be willing to betary the party under conditions not that different.

[Starwaster]

...Mr. Scruffy would make Belkar an unreliable member of team evil.


Errr how so? Belkar is headed for global domination. He's bald... has a white cat, is evil....

Take your pick, Blofeld, Dr Evil or somewhere in between.

[Underground]

Unless Belkar was really hungry and there wasn't any food around. And so what ?

You dont need to be evil to eat an animal.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Errr how so? Belkar is headed for global domination. He's bald... has a white cat, is evil....

Take your pick, Blofeld, Dr Evil or somewhere in between.

Actually, he isn't bald. If you look closely He has very short hair - what we in the UK call a skinhead haircut (In the US I believe it used to be called a Butch Cut or possibly a buzz cut).

Mind you, this gives him the possibility of faking baldness as well as character development...

[Scarlet Knight]

I do not believe Belkar will betray the party based on an old saying:

" If a halfling kills a goblin in a tunnel, and there's no one around to cheer, is it still as fun?"

Or was it "paladin in a garden" ? I forget.... :smallwink:

[Morty]

Belkar won't betray the Order because he has no reason to do so. As long as he plays nice, the rest will protect him and he'll get his deal of killing, ale and whores, which is all Belkar needs. If he does betray them, there's a good chance they'll kill them and even if he manages to get out of it alive, everyone is going to distrust him even more than they'd normally do.

[The Minx]

"Will betray anyone" does not mean "will definitely betray each and every one". It simply means that he can betray any given individual while remaining within the parameters of his alignment. It has already been demonstrated that he is capable of betraying Haley (the incident already mentioned), that doesn't mean that he will face the same choice again in the future. Scruffy is his animal companion, don't know whether he counts. I guess hypothetically it would be possible, but it would take a lot of enticement.

CAVEAT: I agree that he is Chaotic Evil, not Chaotic Cute (well, he is that too, but...). This means that it may well be that he'll betray the Order at some point, it's not inevitable, though. Seeing as he is Chaotic, it's not an easy thing to predict. :smallsmile:

[fangthane]

3 things for the OP.
1. As others have said, may!=shall.
2. You missed one important aspect of chaotic evil characters; indeed, of chaotic characters in general. They quite often behave in a manner which is unpredictable even to those who've made a study of their typical habits.
3. There probably is no rep to vet Chaotic Evil characters for their afterlife. Chaotic Evil afterlives pretty much just assume that everyone who enters is of the correct alignment, and (correctly) that nobody else who enters is liable to enjoy it much anyway. Anyone not chaotic evil who does happen to enter? Entertainment. :belkar:

[[TS] Shadow]

Well, it doesn't really qualify as betrayal. It did however mean that betrayal was not at all out of the question.
Nale was controlling Belkar and without his influence, Belkar would not have tried anything. But the fact he was able to influence Belkar means that Belkar would be willing to betary the party under conditions not that different.

We know that Belkar both wants to kill his allies (Elan for XP, anyone?). The way that most of them treat him (Roy and V, mostly) is kinda low. However, he's smart enough not to. I wouldn't be surprised if Belkar attacked Roy after the entire quest is over when he realizes that he has nothing left to gain from him. (if the quest ends in the comic year, of course. Not likely, but still.)

[Llama231]

Belkar just does whatever he wants, and no one's laws or morals affect his choice if possible.

[Kish]

Shadow;5648483']We know that Belkar both wants to kill his allies (Elan for XP, anyone?). The way that most of them treat him (Roy and V, mostly) is kinda low. However, he's smart enough not to. I wouldn't be surprised if Belkar attacked Roy after the entire quest is over when he realizes that he has nothing left to gain from him. (if the quest ends in the comic year, of course. Not likely, but still.)
It would amuse me greatly if Belkar's death, in the end, was from Roy killing him in self-defense. It would also serve to explain why he doesn't get resurrected.

However, I don't expect it, alas.

[FoE]

I don't doubt that Belkar would hesitate to betray his comrades, but to what end?

Belkar is many things, but he's not Stupid Evil. Before the Mark of Justice was put on him, Belkar had the opportunity to ditch the party. But he continued to travel with them because being an adventurer gives him plenty of opportunities to maim and slaughter, plus pick up some loot on the side. And travelling as part of a group of said adventurers is much safer than going solo, especially when the authorities are looking to toss you in jail.

The point is, Belkar could turn on the Order, but he really hasn't gotten any decent offers to do so. (Or rather, he doesn't recognize a good deal when it's right in front of him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html))

[The Unlucky One]

Yeah? So? Sort of like a CE's version of impotence. There's less and less getting in Belkar's way of betraying everyone.

He's Chaotic Evil, not Chaotic Cool or Chaotic Cute.

He's not Chaotic stupid either.