Belkar : Heroic Sociopath Status

[Liwen]

For those who aren't familiar with TV tropes and this Trope : Heroic Sociopath (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicSociopath), I recommand reading that short article before you put any contribution to this thread.

I'm here to discuss of Belkar Heroic Sociopath Status. Since he decided to fake a character developpement, he has been acting has a good teamate and has promoted a pacifist, moraly acceptable solution to a violent conflict. Now he's getting laid twice with Jenny*.

The fact is, a Heroic Sociopath, of which he was an excellent example (He's the picture exemple of the trope!) shouldn't be able to do these things, some of them can't even understand love and pacifism. So... Should we revoke his Heroic Sociopath status and pin him down in something else, and if so where?

*He treats her like crap though.

[Optimystik]

The "pacifist solution" was merely a way for him to keep his teammates off balance and unsure of him. If they think he's learned his lesson, they won't be watching him like hawks to stop him from murdering when he feels like it.

As for "love"... uh, we'll see if he calls Jenny the next day. I wouldn't hold my breath.

[JonahFalcon]

The Heroic Sociopath is an example of Bad Writing of the Wishful Thinking variety.

Want an example? Hannibal Lecter is evil. He's best when he's being evil, like Manhunter. He's dreadful as a sympathetic character.

When there's a gun in the room, it had better go off by the third act. When there's a psychopath in the room, he'd better go off by the third act, too. And I mean like a psychopath, not a superhero.

[JaxGaret]

Belkar treats Jenny like crap.

I've seen this posted multiple times. How exactly is Belkar treating Jenny like crap?

Seems to me like he's treating her how she wants to be treated.

[JonahFalcon]

I've seen this posted multiple times. How exactly is Belkar treating Jenny like crap?

Seems to me like he's treating her how she wants to be treated.

Jenny is Lawful Submissive. :smallamused:

[Xerrik]

The only reason I can see that Belkar would have promoted that solution is that he hoped he would scare Haley out of it, or at least freak her out a bit. Although, if the fighting had continued for much longer, he couldn't go out and get a sandwich. He was hungry.

[David Argall]

I've seen this posted multiple times. How exactly is Belkar treating Jenny like crap?

Seems to me like he's treating her how she wants to be treated.

There is not necessarily a contradiction here.

[JaxGaret]

There is not necessarily a contradiction here.

I agree, but in this situation I don't think that Belkar's actions even warrant the description "crap". He spared her life, he slept with her twice to her great delight, and he has done nothing bad at all to her. What, he didn't give her a sandwich that she may or may not have even wanted?

To continue on, I think that if someone truly desires to be treated in a certain way, then treating them that way is not "treating them like crap", no matter how outsiders would judge it in reference to their own preferences. I'll reiterate that I don't think that that even needs to apply to this situation, as Belkar hasn't done anything that seems even remotely "crap" to Jenny.

[Zevox]

I've seen this posted multiple times. How exactly is Belkar treating Jenny like crap?

Seems to me like he's treating her how she wants to be treated.
I agree. He was a bit rude to her - mostly in the way he phrased his responses to her question about the sandwich and her request that he join her for round 2 - but it isn't like he's beating her or emotionally abusing her or something. They're both getting exactly what they want out of the situation, and neither is being harmed in any way by it, so... how is she getting treated badly?

Anyway, on topic, Optimystik is right. Belkar's acting the way he is solely to win the group's trust. He doesn't really support Celia's peaceful solution, and probably does not, in fact, understand concepts such as love or pacifism in the least. He just has to pretend he does so those around him aren't always on the look out to stop him from killing whatever he wants.

Zevox

[Liwen]

If someone was to make two sandwiches and leave none for me, and then ask me to "warm up solo" I'd probably take his gold in the middle of the night and leave forever. Doesn't seem to be bothering Jenny...whore.

Anyway, I agree with what you say Zevox, but the simple fact that he tries to play the good teamate and does understands how to do that very well, even for very selfish personnal gains, his an improvement from the "pure Sociopath status he's been given since the gnome kill. (and probably before that too, for many forumers.)

This point is, he is more and more likely to get along with Haley and Celia (not saying that he will) and that alone weakens the sociopath status a bit.

[Lord Seth]

The Heroic Sociopath is an example of Bad Writing of the Wishful Thinking variety.

Want an example? Hannibal Lecter is evil. He's best when he's being evil, like Manhunter. He's dreadful as a sympathetic character.

When there's a gun in the room, it had better go off by the third act. When there's a psychopath in the room, he'd better go off by the third act, too. And I mean like a psychopath, not a superhero.How is Heroic Sociopath in any way Bad Writing?

[Brauley]

It's not, it's funny writing. JonahFalcon probably just has no sense of humour

[Teron]

Real psychopaths are often very good at acting normal and even charismatic. The fact that Belkar has just been introduced to that notion does not make him any less of a monster.

[factotum]

Jenny is Lawful Submissive. :smallamused:

Actually, she's a Bard, so she can't be Lawful. :smallbiggrin:

[kpenguin]

The Heroic Sociopath is an example of Bad Writing of the Wishful Thinking variety.

Want an example? Hannibal Lecter is evil. He's best when he's being evil, like Manhunter. He's dreadful as a sympathetic character.

When there's a gun in the room, it had better go off by the third act. When there's a psychopath in the room, he'd better go off by the third act, too. And I mean like a psychopath, not a superhero.

As far as I know, a psychopath or a sociopath (the two terms seem to be interchangeable), is simply a person that constantly engages in immoral or antisocial behavior. This, while very damning, does not preclude said person from acting in a manner that might be thought of as heroic.

[pearl jam]

As far as I know, a psychopath or a sociopath (the two terms seem to be interchangeable), is simply a person that constantly engages in immoral or antisocial behavior. This, while very damning, does not preclude said person from acting in a manner that might be thought of as heroic.

I'm not an expert, but I believe those 2 terms are not interchangeable. Looking in the dictionary, I can't clearly define the difference, but I have heard someone differentiate between the 2 before.


EDIT:

Here's one doctor's explanation:
http://incoldblogger.blogspot.com/2007/06/psychopath-vs-sociopath.html

[Raging Gene Ray]

Actually, she's a Bard, so she can't be Lawful. :smallbiggrin:

Bards don't lose their abilities if they become lawful. She probably switched alignments so she could grab a level in Monk. OotPCs Spoiler: She loves her some multiclassing!

[kpenguin]

Here's one doctor's explanation:
http://incoldblogger.blogspot.com/2007/06/psychopath-vs-sociopath.html

Thank you for your excellent link. By this Dr. Ramsland's explanation, Belkar does appear to be a sociopath.

[Underground]

For those who aren't familiar with TV tropes and this Trope : Heroic Sociopath (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicSociopath), [...] I just spend over two hours reading. That website IS evil.

[Adeptus]

Real psychopaths are often very good at acting normal and even charismatic.

Only the smartest ones, and even they are not "demonically smart" by any stretch of imagination. Psycopaths have no empathy and very poor impulse control. The ones who can pass off as normal, even charming people have observed how people react and behave. They can seem nice because they are calm and rational.

The problem is that the combination often leads to them going off at a minor thing when whey finally snap. A local politician was murdered in my parts (Finland) by her husband of 10+ years over a minor argument about a holiday trip. The psycho in question then claimed to have blacked out that evening, and that somebody must have broken in and brutally murdered his wife. He was covering up his irrational spur-of-the-moment murder on the fly, and eventually got tangled up in his made-up-on-the-spot lies, and also exposed how totally cold and alien he was by the stuff he said in court (like how their two year old daughter was too young to be effected in any way by what had happened...)

It was eerie to witness. He had seemed totally normal apparently, until the mask fell off. He totally didn't grasp the severeti of what had happened, and couldn't pretend to have any emotional anquish over it either. Must have been a really warm marriage *eyeroll*