Rate the villains.

[Tycho2]

So.. first thread. Dont hit me! :smallannoyed:

Personally i love the complexity and variety of villains in this strip. Villains should always outnumber good guys for the majority of the time, and oots seems to acheive this without having them all fall under the same category, creating a bunch of obstacles, and making the plot seem less linear.

So i've handpicked a group of characters i've deemed most notable villains (my brains a bit fuzzy so ive probably left some characters out, feel free to add) and then rated them in terms of their entertainment value as characters, and the actual threat they appear to pose as villains in the strip (in order of the bottom ranked = its time to call superman).

Bozzok - tactical, brutish theif character who took control of the theives guild, hes probably only here due to being fresh in my mind and making up the numbers. Bozzok has minions, and proved ruthlessness in the way he probably seized control of the guild, but he doesnt really have any power, or anything which stands out. Hes a transitional villain, small threat, fairly easily taken down. Has potential to improve however, due to surviving :smallamused:

Roy's dad - People are probably slightly confused by me including this guy. But imo, he is a villain. He shows traces of sadism and bitterness throughout the strip, as well as a total lack of concern for anyone but himself. He never takes an oppurtunity to aid his son and co, and in fact occasionally does something annoying and gets in the way. But the reason why he's a villain is his relationship with the main character roy. Roy's dad is actually roy's nemesis. Theres clearly some actual anger between the two (particularly on roy's part, who cant stand his dad's indifference) and both hide it well with constant smarky comments. Its going to boil to a head eventually, though i cant rank the man high due to obvious reasons.

Xykon - The 'main bad guy' of the strip, but its clear to everyone he isnt really. Xykon comes off as rather dense, as if he doesnt really know what he's after (maybe hes senile? Dude must be old), and gets sidetracked often, like a kid. Hes pretty similar to belkar actually. He does get points however for actually being powerful and killing roy :smallbiggrin:

Nale, and the 'linears' - Very cliched, but they work well as a constant rival group you know is lurking round the corner. Colourful characters, while neal's ambition rivals red-cloaks. I cant say i love them, but they do work well, with some great interactions between both sides, and offering up a genuine anti-hero group to the mix, which adds unpredictability to the strip. Their power will naturally mirror the oots, and the group dynamics which exist in the linears also builds them as characters and makes them seem believable villains.

Kubota - I like Kubota. Hes a great little character who has popped up recently (i was genuinely [pis*ed when he got disintegrated :smallfrown: ). The reason why suboto is a good villain is because hes classical, always one step ahead, scheming and totally ruthless. Add to that his noble superiority and you have a good combination. The way he killed a (fairly) important character, despite his limited skills, and ignoring the fact that he'd tutored her her whole life, was perfect. He relies on politics, subversion, and pure tactics rather than wands or swords. Plus love the moustache.

Miko - Miko is/was great. Complete stuck up bitch who feigned serving her religion and lord while in fact she only served her own ego ('i am the special one!') and didnt let any other opinions or views get in her way, she just smited everything in her path, retaining her icy bitchiness while she did. She was a great anti-good character, who caused conflict everywhere she went. Shes a villain because she is obviously standing in the way of the heroes (even though she thinks 'she' is the heroine), and she keeps her insane, paladin fervour steady right the way through. Even at her death she is still the same, and like redcoat her belief in what she is doing (as well as her ability to kick ass) makes her a threat.

Redcloak - The evil goblin dictator and 'sidekick', of Xykon. I love this dude. In fact i call him the little green lenin/stalin :smallbiggrin: . Not only is he intelligent, and fairly powerful in his own right, but he is shamelessly manipulative and actually.. by comic book standards, pretty efficient. His relationship with his 'boss' makes me chuckle, but the real reason why i rate him the highest is due to his actual threat value. In redcloak you have a villain who isnt just out for his own gain.. he has a genuine and heartfelt goal with he completely believes in, and its a goal which has the power to cause the good characters to waver in their path to stopping him. His desire to make the goblin people great and no longer subservient strikes a chord for all minion d&d races everywhere! He believes in what he is doing so much.. that it actually feels like he could come out on top.

I know ive missed people out, but ah well. :smallannoyed:

[Euron]

So.. first thread. Dont hit me! :smallannoyed:

Personally i love the complexity and variety of villains in this strip. Villains should always outnumber good guys for the majority of the time, and oots seems to acheive this without having them all fall under the same category, creating a bunch of obstacles, and making the plot seem less linear.

So i've handpicked a group of characters i've deemed most notable villains (my brains a bit fuzzy so ive probably left some characters out, feel free to add) and then rated them in terms of their entertainment value as characters, and the actual threat they appear to pose as villains in the strip (in order of the bottom ranked = its time to call superman).

Bozzok - tactical, brutish theif character who took control of the theives guild, hes probably only here due to being fresh in my mind and making up the numbers. Bozzok has minions, and proved ruthlessness in the way he probably seized control of the guild, but he doesnt really have any power, or anything which stands out. Hes a transitional villain, small threat, fairly easily taken down. Has potential to improve however, due to surviving :smallamused:

Roy's dad - People are probably slightly confused by me including this guy. But imo, he is a villain. He shows traces of sadism and bitterness throughout the strip, as well as a total lack of concern for anyone but himself. He never takes an oppurtunity to aid his son and co, and in fact occasionally does something annoying and gets in the way. But the reason why he's a villain is his relationship with the main character roy. Roy's dad is actually roy's nemesis. Theres clearly some actual anger between the two (particularly on roy's part, who cant stand his dad's indifference) and both hide it well with constant smarky comments. Its going to boil to a head eventually, though i cant rank the man high due to obvious reasons.

Xykon - The 'main bad guy' of the strip, but its clear to everyone he isnt really. Xykon comes off as rather dense, as if he doesnt really know what he's after (maybe hes senile? Dude must be old), and gets sidetracked often, like a kid. Hes pretty similar to belkar actually. He does get points however for actually being powerful and killing roy :smallbiggrin:

Neal, and the 'linears' - Very cliched, but they work well as a constant rival group you know is lurking round the corner. Colourful characters, while neal's ambition rivals red-cloaks. I cant say i love them, but they do work well, with some great interactions between both sides, and offering up a genuine anti-hero group to the mix, which adds unpredictability to the strip. Their power will naturally mirror the oots, and the group dynamics which exist in the linears also builds them as characters and makes them seem believable villains.

Suboto - I like Suboto. Hes a great little character who has popped up recently (i was genuinely [pis*ed when he got disintegrated :smallfrown: ). The reason why suboto is a good villain is because hes classical, always one step ahead, scheming and totally ruthless. Add to that his noble superiority and you have a good combination. The way he killed a (fairly) important character, despite his limited skills, and ignoring the fact that he'd tutored her her whole life, was perfect. He relies on politics, subversion, and pure tactics rather than wands or swords. Plus love the moustache.

Miko - Miko is/was great. Complete stuck up bitch who feigned serving her religion and lord while in fact she only served her own ego ('i am the special one!') and didnt let any other opinions or views get in her way, she just smited everything in her path, retaining her icy bitchiness while she did. She was a great anti-good character, who caused conflict everywhere she went. Shes a villain because she is obviously standing in the way of the heroes (even though she thinks 'she' is the heroine), and she keeps her insane, paladin fervour steady right the way through. Even at her death she is still the same, and like redcoat her belief in what she is doing (as well as her ability to kick ass) makes her a threat.

Redcloak - The evil goblin dictator and 'sidekick', of Xykon. I love this dude. In fact i call him the little green lenin/stalin :smallbiggrin: . Not only is he intelligent, and fairly powerful in his own right, but he is shamelessly manipulative and actually.. by comic book standards, pretty efficient. His relationship with his 'boss' makes me chuckle, but the real reason why i rate him the highest is due to his actual threat value. In redcloak you have a villain who isnt just out for his own gain.. he has a genuine and heartfelt goal with he completely believes in, and its a goal which has the power to cause the good characters to waver in their path to stopping him. His desire to make the goblin people great and no longer subservient strikes a chord for all minion d&d races everywhere! He believes in what he is doing so much.. that it actually feels like he could come out on top.

I know ive missed people out, but ah well. :smallannoyed:

1) Who is Suboto?

2) Redcloak: dictator? Really? I take it you never read SoD.

3) Miko: villain? Really? If anything she's the anti-villain with the most pure intentions in the strip.

4)Xykon is not senile, nor stupid. Refer to last comment about SoD. You're confusing a lack of interest for a lack of intelligence. What Xykon lacks is tact, which RC makes up for. He's pure evil, but he's not the kind of person to twiddle his mustache; he'll just kill you, unless he finds a better way to torture you (Roy, at the battle of AC, before he gets bored).
4b)You compare Belkar to Xykon, and before his Shojo-trip, you may have been right. Belkar lacks both foresight and intelligence, and Xykon has plenty of both.

[Leonshade]

Neal
Suboto



Do you mean Nale and Kubota?

[Jan Mattys]

Bozzok - He gets 2/10. He is smart, he is tough, he is strong, but he lacks what makes villains interesting. He just lacks style. He's brutish, but that goes without saying... Brutish is not nearly enough to qualify for the cool villain role. Plus, he's been the main obstacle between the good guys and Roy's resurrection. BOO I say!

Roy's dad - Having undergone a pretty similar relation with my father, I tend to disagree with him being a villain. He's a sad, grumpty old man who was not able, despite all his intellect, to live a fullfilling life. He is sad, but he's no villain. 0/10.

Xykon - Before reading SoD, I would have given Xykon a 8/10, mainly because he's funny as hell sometimes, but not enough "villainous" (is that a word?). After reading SoD, Xykon gets the full 10/10. He's big, bad, and EVIL. And I mean really, really evil, beyond any repetance. His speech while killing Dorukan is just too creepy, while being full of pride.

Nale, and the 'linears' - Nale and Sabine get a standard 6/10 just because they are there. They give some nice subplots and they are an inside joke themselves. Thog, on the other hand, averages a 9/10 and is by far my favourite Linear Guild member. He's the kind of villain we all just can't hate. And being stupid enough not to switch sides (I can't really see him betraying Nale... I mean, the guy conceives plans involving rocket skates!!!), he qualifies as a Villain. Go Thog!

Miko - I loved Miko. The Giant made a nice work with her, showing how a Paladin is NOT meant to be played. She was arrogant, and close-minded. And managed to get the coolest death of all. 8/10.

Redcloak - Redcloak was going to get a 10/10 before I read SoD. After reading SoD, I quite started to dislike the guy, because he has no spine. He lost a couple cool points and got a simple 8/10 (the same two points Xykon picked up in the process). Still, Redcloack gets some of the best lines in the comic, and the "This is for you, Mom" line while ordering the catapults to wreak havoc over Azure City is just badass and touching at the same time. I love the character, but he's just so/so a villain imho.

The Monster in the Darkness - 10/10. And it is friend with O-Chul, too... :smallbiggrin:

The Snarl - This thing doesn't kill. It UNMAKES you. And it UNMAKES the very fabric of the Universe. And Gods pee in their pants when it is around. You can't get cooler that that. 10/10.

[Tycho2]

Yeah sorry about that. Corrected ^^ My brain currently isnt working well.

to euron:

I was being ironic about the dictator part. :smallwink:

Imo pure intentions can belong to a villain. If your going to look at it so every person who believes they are doing the right thing is a villain, your start blurring lines between good and evil, which is another argument. Miko is a villain from the perspective of the oots, in her mind (and maybe you or i) is another matter.

Xykon obviously has intelligence, but he doesnt really bother with it anymore. Im not sure he currently has an actual goal. As a result, i dont rate him in terms of a threat. His boredom and slightly childish attitude is his weakness.

[Kaytara]

Xykon has a very clear goal - be evil. It's the only thing that makes Undeath fun for him, so that's what he's going to do. And he decided that holding the entire world hostage by controlling the Snarl is the best way to be evil right now.

I, too, disagree with your idea of Eugene being a villain. An unpleasant personality does not make a villain, and even though he's been an ass about it at all times, he's still helped Roy on more than one occasion. As for him being Roy's nemesis, Roy simply having a grudge against his father is hardly grounds to accuse the latter of villainhood either, otherwise you'd call any object of a strained relationship a villain.

As for Redcloak, I actually think the part about him having no spine may be changing, even if slowly and unnoticeably. Maybe.

[kpenguin]

I disagree with you listing Eugene as a villain. Yeah, sure, he's a jerk to Roy and he isn't quite as good as he should be, the fact that most of what we see of him is in his interactions with estranged son means that we're not seeing a good side of him. SoD is far more flattering to Eugene, especially the part in which he refuses to go off to fight Xykon because he's afraid for his family.

Eugene is at worst an antagonist to Roy at this point. He still helps occasionally, so he may not even be that.

[Tycho2]

Judging from comments i think i need to read SoD.

<.<

[Optimystik]

Judging from comments i think i need to read SoD.

<.<

Well, it's hard to rate villains when you're missing key information about them. :smallwink:

Anyhow, I don't consider Eugene a "villain." He's a jerk, but he's also committed to fighting evil. He wouldn't be up on the cloud at all if he was truly vile.

[Niley]

The only villain I really HATED was Kubota. He was the worst type of Lawful Evil - cold as ice, calculating, arrogant and confident of the Good Guys' foolishness. I mean, Xykon is a lot more Evil than Kubota, but Xykon's at least got the guts to be openly Evil!
Hm. Or maybe I hate Kubota because he's Lawful? But on the other hand, Redcloak is Lawful as well, and I adore him :smallwink: .

So, summarizing my point of view, the Most Evil Character Championship!
1. Kubota
2. Xykon.
3. Nale
4. Miko (YES, she was a TOTAL villain and DESERVED to DIE and I'm HAPPY that she is NOT coming back)
5. Redcloak
6. Bozzok
7. Eugene Greenhilt (Roy's dad)

[JVWest]

Xykon is deliciously evil and seems to enjoy being evil so much you just gotta like the guy.

I would call Roy's Dad an antagonist for certain. At least up to this point. Since we can't know the full scope of the story it's impossible to say what he will end up being, but his behavior is antagonistic for now with some dashes of helpfulness peppered on here and there.

My favorite villains are Xykon, Miko, and Redcloak in that order.

[Kurald Galain]

(1) Redcloak, for his awesome background in SOD.
(2) Xykon, of course.
(3) Nale. He may be ineffective but he's funny.
(4) Samantha. Sexy pyschopaths for the win.

...

(8) Bozzok. Neither effective nor funny.
(9) Kubota. Doesn't do anything besides gloating.

...

(oo) Miko is not a villain, and neither is Eugene.

[Zevox]

@ Tycho2 - I think the word you're looking for here is not so much "villain" as it is "antagonist." Villains generally are those in the story who are considered evil. Guys like Xykon, who want to rule the world, or Redcloak, who will happily cause all sorts of pain to others and risk destroying the world in order to fundamentally alter it. Not people like Miko, who though a serious pain in the ass, misguided, and self-centered, are actually good people at heart and trying to do what they think is best for everyone (or at least everyone who they don't think is evil). Antagonists, on the other hand, are anyone who causes problems for the main characters to overcome. In that sense, villains usually also qualify as antagonists, but non-villains like Miko can also qualify.

Even then though, I think including Eugene is a mistake. He and Roy have some serious relationship issues, sure, but he's hardly a significant obstacle or problem for Roy. He's just a pain to be around. I suppose back when Roy was concerned about the Blood Oath he may qualify under a technicality, but since Roy decided he didn't care about that anymore, he's nothing more than a bystander hoping Roy does what he wants him to even though Roy won't do it because he wants him to.

Anyway then, I'll go ahead and do the rating thing a couple of others have.

Xykon - 10/10. He's hillarious, he's evil to the very marrow, and he has a huge villainous goal which he is theoretically capable of accomplishing (albeit not quite in the way he expects to accomplish it). He's one-dimensional, but intentionally so, because it's funnier that way. He's a parody of the generic "Big Bad Evil Dark Lord" archetype that has become so prominent in the genre, so of course he's one dimensional. He has some attention span problems with some things, but he's actually quite cunning when he puts his mind to it. That's mostly because age modifiers and becoming a Lich boosted his intelligence and wisdom, but it's still him nonetheless.

Redcloak - 10/10. He's Xykon's antithesis. He is not as bone-chillingly "pure evil" as his Lich ally, but this is because he is a much more developed, multi-dimensional character. He's a more realistic villain, if you will. With understandable and even at times sympathetic motivations, a huge goal that, again, he is theoretically capable of accomplishing, and endless levels of inner turmoil over just how far he is willing to go for his goals, he's one of the most interesting characters in the strip.

Miko - 8/10. I hated Miko. She was an unbearable, self-righteous, egocentric bitch. But as a good-aligned antagonist, she played her story role quiet well. Hell, the hatred she inspired is proof of that.

The Linear Guild - 7/10 (Group rating). They're obviously highly clichèd, but of course this is as a parody of the clichè, as Nale's former obsession with finding new Evil Opposites to fill out the ranks shows. They certainly make good rivals for the group, though, and have good story potential now that they're wise to the overarching plot. Plenty of comedy potential remaining too. Just for kicks, I'll toss out individual ratings, though I'll not bother breaking them down.
- Nale: 6/10.
- Sabine: 7/10.
- Thog: 6/10. (Mostly on funny value.)
- Hilgya: 3/10.
- Zz'dtri: 2/10.
- Yikyik: 1/10
- Pompei: 5/10.
- Yokyok: 4/10. (Again, mostly on funny value.)
- Leeky: 4/10. (Mostly on how absolutely perfect he is as Durkon's evil opposite.)

Kubota - 5/10. He's a decent regional-level villain. Quite clichèd, but effective. Nothing special though. He could have been had he been made into a major villain I suppose, but the comic has enough of those between Team Evil and the Linear Guild.

Bozzok - 4/10. Similar to Kubota, he's a decent regional villain, but nothing special. Unlike Kubota, I feel he has less potential overall. Too small-time. While he's just good enough to run the Thieves' Guild, that's about all he seems suited for.

Tsukiko - 4/10. She's an odd one. Interesting addition to Xykon's roster of lackeys, but not a particularly major character, and with no apparent goal other than being on the evil side and exercising her necrophilia. I am a bit happy to see a Mystic Theurge in the strip though. Always liked that PrC.

Crystal - 3/10. Meh. Decent for poking fun at the "personal rival from my past" trope, and for jokes about her stupidity, but other than that, nothing special.

Monster in the Darknes - I can't really rate him. He's not really a villain or an antagonist. Sure, he was an obstacle briefly to Haley and Belkar recovering Roy's body, but otherwise he's mostly just a great running gag. Maybe when his role expands later on I'd be able to rate him. But of course this thread will be dead way before then.

Zevox

[Tycho2]

The only villain I really HATED was Kubota. He was the worst type of Lawful Evil - cold as ice, calculating, arrogant and confident of the Good Guys' foolishness. I mean, Xykon is a lot more Evil than Kubota, but Xykon's at least got the guts to be openly Evil!
Hm. Or maybe I hate Kubota because he's Lawful? But on the other hand, Redcloak is Lawful as well, and I adore him :smallwink: .

So, summarizing my point of view, the Most Evil Character Championship!
1. Kubota
2. Xykon.
3. Nale
4. Miko (YES, she was a TOTAL villain and DESERVED to DIE and I'm HAPPY that she is NOT coming back)
5. Redcloak
6. Bozzok
7. Eugene Greenhilt (Roy's dad)

Hell yeah! Kubota was a perfect bad guy. So hateable, the way they are meant to be! I loved it.

zevox - Your right, antagonist is a much better word. As for xykon, for me he has become overshadowed by rc (but apparantly i havent read everything yet, so my opinion shouldnt matter so much :smallwink: ) which dilutes him as a threat. It just seems natural for me that redcloak is eventually going to depose him, and take the centre role. I guess thats why i rated him low, although i find his character hilarious.

As for Eugene, i think he does effect Roy. Sorry, but if my dad acted like that towards me it would effect me in some way. I wouldnt be able to push it aside with lighthearted comments, it would seriously trouble me, which is why i see him as an antagonist.

[Zevox]

zevox - Your right, antagonist is a much better word. As for xykon, for me he has become overshadowed by rc (but apparantly i havent read everything yet, so my opinion shouldnt matter so much :smallwink: ) which dilutes him as a threat. It just seems natural for me that redcloak is eventually going to depose him, and take the centre role. I guess thats why i rated him low, although i find his character hilarious.
Definitely read Start of Darkness. Once you see the ending of that, you will understand why I rate Xykon so highly. And why Redcloak is not going to "depose" him as a matter of course.


As for Eugene, i think he does effect Roy. Sorry, but if my dad acted like that towards me it would effect me in some way. I wouldnt be able to push it aside with lighthearted comments, it would seriously trouble me, which is why i see him as an antagonist.
Oh, he affects Roy, sure. But everyone around Roy affects him somehow. He's simply neither a villain plotting some evil scheme, nor an antagonist presenting a significant problem to Roy or the rest of the Order. As for how you'd react, well, that's rather different from how Roy does, no? Roy grew up with that. He's used to it. And in any event, used to it or not, it's not a significant problem for him.

Zevox

[Tycho2]

Im going to read it, but i dont think rich would have eugene act this way just for laughs. I think the attitude is going to bring about serious harm to roy/the group at some stage, though i could be wrong.

[hamishspence]

Remember that Wizards sometimes uses "Villain" for any antagonist, even a Good one. Exemplars of Evil sourcebook has a Good Villain mentioned.

I think Rich has referred to Miko as both a Villain and an Antagonist in Paladin Blues.

[fangthane]

If we ignore the more recent pejorative connotations of the word, I say the best villain in the story so far is the old man who offers his cryptic musings for big bucks. Very clever villain, he. :smallwink:

Leaving aside the boric acid/antagonist jokes, I'd rate the big ones thusly:
Xykon - 3/4 for effectiveness, 3/3 for style, 4/3 for power (he is, after all, epic) - 10/10 total.
The Snarl - 1/4 for effectiveness, 0/3 for style, 9/3 for power (it kills gods by the pantheon) - 10/10 total.
Redcloak - 4/4 for effectiveness, 2/3 for style, 2/3 for power (he lost to Miko, and while he beat the High Priest it was hardly a style battle; those points come from his creative use of chemistry) - 8/10 total.
MitD - 0/4 for effectiveness, 1/3 for style, 4/3 for power - 5/10 total.
Bozzok - 3/4 for effectiveness, 1/3 for style, 2/3 for power - 6/10 total.
Crystal - 1/4 for effectiveness, 1/3 for style, 2/3 for power - 4/10 total.
The Oracle - 4/4 for effectiveness, 3/3 for style, 2/3 for power - 9/10 total.
Kubota - 3/4 for effectiveness, 2/3 for style, 1/3 for power - 6/10 total.
The Linear Guild - 2/4 for effectiveness, 3/3 for style, 2/3 for power - 7/10 total (as a group). Thog gets +2 effectiveness, -1 style; Nale gets -2 effectiveness, +1 style.

All things considered, I rate the top 4 antagonists, in order, as The Snarl, Xykon, The Oracle and Redcloak. Go ahead, just TRY to explain why the Oracle isn't a primo antagonist. :smallbiggrin:

[Linkavitch]

I put the OotS villains at about a 9/10. Only 'cuz there are always more villains in the fiction universe, and one of them is bound to be better.:smallsmile:

[Querzis]

I think Kubota was a great villain too. He remember me of Lex Luthor with his good publicity that make him untouchable by laws, him backstabbing all his allies and his capacity to turn any situation to his advantage (yes until the crazy wizard disintegrate him but in a superhero story no one would do that).

Anyway, gotta give the first rank to Xykon. Hes not my favorite character but hes the big bad and you cant find someone more evil then him so:

1) Xykon
2) Kubota
3) Nale
4) Redcloak
5) Bozzok
6) Miko (she was a good antagonist but not a good villain, its different).

And come on, I really dont get how anyone could think Eugene is a villain.

[Lord Zentei]

and she keeps her insane, paladin fervour steady right the way through. Even at her death she is still the same, and like redcoat her belief in what she is doing (as well as her ability to kick ass) makes her a threat.

Err, no she does not [EDIT: meaning, she is not the same at her moment of death]. She accepts Soon's judgement, in fact. Review update 464 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html), that's not her usual raging self at all, which implies that however wrong she was, she really thought she was doing the right thing all along.

Also, it's "Redcloak".


6) Miko (she was a good antagonist but not a good villain, its different).

Querzis wins the thread cookie.


And come on, I really dont get how anyone could think Eugene is a villain.

Since you didn't get the memo: anyone who does not bend over backwards for the PCs is a villain (apparently). :smallwink:

Some people seem think that "person who is not likable and who makes things difficult for the heroes" qualifies as a criteria for villainy. Of course, this is not so. Eugene is not a villain. He's a story hook and general douche bag, but that's different role.

[Tycho2]

I still say hes a villain. :smallamused:

And if i felt that way about it i'd have celia on here. :smallwink:

[Hardcore]

Bah! Bozzok is only in the list because he has a position as the leader of the Thieves guild, not for anything evil he has done. (Has he done any evil stuff at all?) I say we should Ignore him.

As for the rest it is a question what we rate; Coolnes, fun-ness, Evilness, style-ness etc. ??? I have no idea. Maybe all of it?
I think thet all are great, except Kubota, who had no endearing qualities at all! (which can explanin why he was killed off, rather than becoming recuring villain)

[The Minx]

Bah! Bozzok is only in the list because he has a position as the leader of the Thieves guild, not for anything evil he has done. (Has he done any evil stuff at all?) I say we should Ignore him.

As for the rest it is a question what we rate; Coolnes, fun-ness, Evilness, style-ness etc. ??? I have no idea. Maybe all of it?
I think thet all are great, except Kubota, who had no endearing qualities at all! (which can explanin why he was killed off, rather than becoming recuring villain)

Bozzok kills guild members who won't toe to the line (instead of exiling them). He claims that he is the one who got Haley's dad into trouble with Lord Tyrinar here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html), for being too popular with the "less violent members" of the Guild and a risk to his new-found power as boss. Pretty huge revelation, that, and it hasn't gotten as much attention or comment as it deserves, IMHO.

[TheBST]

OK, just to curb any Miko debate, let's call this 'Rate the Antagonists' for safety.

1) Redcloak - not as powerful as Xykon but the brains of the operation, making him more dangerous in the long term. Most complex character in the strips and my personal favourite.
2) Xykon- lack of ambition keeping him off the top spot.
3) Nale- Like Xykon, a good mix of silliness and genuine malice- have another think about his plan to murder Haley on their 'date'- twisted stuff. Now he knows about the gates I'm looking forward to seeing the kid realise his full potential.
4) Miko- For causing as much trouble in the forums as in the comic.
5) Thog- what's not to love?

Wasted Potential Award: Leeky the Druid. The one time Nale recruits a genuine threat to the Order...

One to Watch: Qarr.

Wooden Spoon: Kubota. In a fight to save the multiverse, let's face it, he was small time.

[Samurai Jill]

Pretty huge revelation, that, and it hasn't gotten as much attention or comment as it deserves, IMHO.
I dunno... It seemed kinda standard villainous-revelation fare. I'd have been more shocked if he'd said something to indicate actual good relations with dearest Da.

[Tycho2]

Bah! Bozzok is only in the list because he has a position as the leader of the Thieves guild, not for anything evil he has done. (Has he done any evil stuff at all?) I say we should Ignore him.

As for the rest it is a question what we rate; Coolnes, fun-ness, Evilness, style-ness etc. ??? I have no idea. Maybe all of it?
I think thet all are great, except Kubota, who had no endearing qualities at all! (which can explanin why he was killed off, rather than becoming recuring villain)

Kubota was killed of the way he was because rich realised he had created a character too ingenious to be defeated in normal ways, so he resorted to a cheap move. :smallwink:

Bozzok is an ******* but hes definitely small-time.

[TheBST]

Kubota was killed of the way he was because rich realised he had created a character too ingenious to be defeated in normal ways, so he resorted to a cheap move

Not ingenious enough to have some spell resistance.

Getting blasted by a wizard seems a pretty normal way to go for D&D villain

Nothing cheap about pushing a usually Heroic character into murky waters.

[Tycho2]

What V did was out of character. It was a genuinely shocking leap from the way he/she had previously acted. Kubota had no way of guessing it could happen. The reason it happened was because he kept outsmarting the heroes by using their morals against them. The only way he could be defeated was by using an immoral action.

[Assassin89]

Bozzok and Kubota are relative small fry compared to Xykon and Redcloak. Eugene and the Oracle are minor annoyances, although they both would rank high on my kill list. Miko is a representation of the wrong way to play a paladin.

The top three antagonists are as follows in no particular order
1) Xykon
2) Redcloak
3) The Linear Guild

[TheBST]

The only way he could be defeated was by using an immoral action.

Coincidentally the same way he intended to defeat the heroes. In order to run a city his people don't own anymore. For some perspective, Redcloak's plan involves the destruction of the world and possibly the multiverse as a contingency . Little league scheming like Kubota's has been an entertaining digression, that's all. His most ingenious plan was only a getaway plan, after all.

[Tycho2]

Sure, but just because he doesnt want to destroy the world doesnt make him a bad villain. Anyway, who knows what was really going on behind that moustache? :smallamused:

[TheBST]

Anyway, who knows what was really going on behind that moustache? :smallamused:

Employment as a Village People roadie? A porno past? One can only speculate.

Fair point overall, but like I say- if you're going to fail (as 99/100 villains do), then fail at something big.

[Kurald Galain]

Sure, but just because he doesnt want to destroy the world doesnt make him a bad villain.
No, the fact that he failed at everything he tried makes him a bad villain.

Heck, even Nale has a higher success rate, and at least Nale is funny.

[Llama231]

I will rate them on my scale, which uses 5 as a C, 6 as a B, 7 as an A, and 10 is perfect. 1 is perfectly imperfect. I will rate them as antagonists to the order.

Humor:
Bozzok: 3 Boring.
Crystal: 6 Stupid funny.
Eugene: 5 Average, annoying, but some good jokes.
Kubota: 4 Meh.
Miko: 6 Same as Crystal, but in a slightly different way.
Nale: 7 Not exactly sure why...
Redcloak: 6 Mostly meh, but some good lines.
Sabine: 3 Why so serious?
Samantha: 2 Not enough screentime.
Thog: 9 thog.
Tsukio (bad spelling): 4 Nothing notable.
Xykon: 8 Sickenenly funny.

Motives:
Bozzok: 6 Money, money, money!
Crystal: 4 Meh.
Eugene: 3 Too annoying.
Kubota: 5 Average.
Miko: 8 Yay for plot.
Nale: 5 Better version of Crystal.
Redcloak: 9 SoD.
Sabine: 6 Le employers.
Samantha: 2 No story.
Thog: 7 ice cream.
Tsukio (bad spelling): 6 Team evil/undead.
Xykon: 8 Yay for own entertainment.

Skill:
Bozzok: 6 High level, but not too smart.
Crystal: 4 Good at what she does, but not really smart enough.
Eugene: 5 He was getting what he wanted, but lost it.
Kubota: 6 So close.
Miko: 7 Powerful, but flawed.
Nale: 6 Smart, but egotistic.
Redcloak: 8 Xykon+Azure City=Success. Not so great at the interrogtion, though.
Sabine: 7 better than Nale.
Samantha: 2 This is my 2 holder.
Thog: 7 thog smash. thog happy.
Tsukio (bad spelling): 6 she's got the high life, but not too powerful.
Xykon: 9 Nigh unstopable so far. Very powerful.

Awesomeness:
Bozzok: 4 Half-orc rouge. That's about it.
Crystal: 3 Funny, but far too stupid.
Eugene: 2 Me no like.
Kubota: 6 So close...
Miko: 6 Great until the end.
Nale: 5 Good, but with problems.
Redcloak: 7 Redcloak is 1337.
Sabine: 4 Meh.
Samantha: 2 Mucho meh.
Thog: 8 thog is thog.
Tsukio (bad spelling): 4 Meh.
Xykon: 9 No explaination needed.

Total(s):
Bozzok: 19/40 C-
Crystal: 17/40 D+
Eugene: 15/40 D
Kubota: 21/40 C+
Miko: 27/40 B+
Nale: 23/40 B
Redcloak: 30/40 A
Sabine: 20/40 C
Samantha: 8/40 F-----
Thog: 31/40 A+
Tsukio (bad spelling): 20/40 C
Xykon: 34/40 A++++

I would go with:
Xykon
Thog
Redcloak
Miko
as my favorite antagonists.

[A Quiet Person]

Wasted Potential Award: Leeky the Druid. The one time Nale recruits a genuine threat to the Order...

Personally, I'd give a wasted potential award to Crystal. Antagonists have a sort of momentum, and - before she actually fought Haley - Crystal had plenty. We knew that she was a psychopath who had gained a level whenever Haley had, and that Haley did not want to face her in a straight-up fight. A high-level assassin with a personal hatred for Haley? Crystal could have been really threatening.

Then they encounter each other. And Crystal throws... gherkins?!

In that moment, for the sake of a joke that I didn't think hit the mark, Crystal's momentum as an antagonist died jarringly. There was no way she was going to recover any sort of scariness after that.

That aside, OoTS has had some great villains. Xykon, Redcloak and Thog top the league of course.

[Pyrolep]

Geez, some of you guys were a little harsh on him for some simple typos. Anyway, should all of the thieves guild be counted as one villian? I don't see a point in seperating Bozzok, Crystal, and the others, since they're all after the same thing.

And what about the MitD? He's not very intimidating due to his personality, but he's definitely on the villain side, and he definitely has enough power to be a threat. Given his potential, I'd rate him pretty high, but give his personality, I'd rate him low. So...somewhere in the middle?

[whitelaughter]

Judging from comments i think i need to read SoD.

<.<
Of course. Everybody needs to read SoD. Read SoD! er-hem, sorry about that...

Yes, Redcloak counts as a little dictator - and knows it. "Do they think crushing an entire civilization beneath our heels 'just happens'? It's all fun and games for them, but I'm the one who has to make the magical lightning powered trains run on time" http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html

More Franco than Stalin though.

[Kish]

I dunno... It seemed kinda standard villainous-revelation fare. I'd have been more shocked if he'd said something to indicate actual good relations with dearest Da.
That would have been briefly amusing. "Really, Haley. Wouldn't your father be disappointed to see you fighting me?"

Briefly, because the news the Haley's father didn't object to his daughter being a virtual slave of Bozzok (as she was in her original Guild contract) would quickly have led (me, at least) to the conclusion "oh, Haley's father is scum," dramatically deflating the entire Lord Tyrinar subplot as suddenly whether Haley's father lives or dies doesn't matter.

[Tycho2]

No, the fact that he failed at everything he tried makes him a bad villain.

Heck, even Nale has a higher success rate, and at least Nale is funny.

He killed Thurkla, in a decidedly sneaky way. Counts for something.

[Dienekes]

Gotta vote Redcloak, the guy is competent amusing and the most threatening goblin I've ever seen.

Then Xykon

And I'd have to say that Hank (I think that was his name, halfling guy of the thieves guild) was interesting.

[Kish]

He killed Thurkla, in a decidedly sneaky way. Counts for something.
His greatest accomplishment was killing his own right-hand half-orc. I think he's a lot more pathetic than I thought he was before you said that. :smallyuk:

[Assassin89]

His greatest accomplishment was killing his own right-hand half-orc. I think he's a lot more pathetic than I thought he was before you said that. :smallyuk:

I would also like to add that said half-orc suggested a plan that would have resulted in Kubota living, ruling a different nation.

[Scarlet Knight]

Nale gets points for Sabine...:smallwink:!

My darkhorse is Quarr, who has so much potential to cause grief to our heros.

[Tycho2]

I would also like to add that said half-orc suggested a plan that would have resulted in Kubota living, ruling a different nation.

This only happened due to v's unpredictable and unfair character change. Im sure we would all be bowing down to Kubota without that. :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Honestly, considering how fixated he was on the title "Lord of Azure City"...if he had killed Hinjo and seized control of the fleet, he probably would have gone back to Azure City and expected the hobgoblins to fall over before his superior human forces, and Redcloak would have swatted him like a bug.

[The Minx]

I dunno... It seemed kinda standard villainous-revelation fare. I'd have been more shocked if he'd said something to indicate actual good relations with dearest Da.

I didn't mean that it wasn't standard villain fare. I meant that it was important to the plot. :smallsmile:

[Jural]

3) Miko: villain? Really? If anything she's the anti-villain with the most pure intentions in the strip.


She acts as the villain (or foil, if you will) for much of her appearance as a character in the OOTS. But let's use the word adversary so as to not invoke too many emotions! (EDIT, let's use antagonist, as Querzis suggested, that's a good call.)

I loved Miko as an antagonist for the OOTS. She was the perfect foil to Roy and the entire "we just want to kill things and get loot" attitude that most of the PC's were basking in up until that point.

She put a moral center into the comic, and that continued even when she was offerred to be turned into a blackguard by Sabine...

She was my second favorite adversary to the OOTS, behind Xykon, who is, frankly, the best written character in the OOTS. He's hilarious, evil, and completely into his role as a villain!

[xelliea]

I really like the demon roaches, they are really funny, i wish they were in the comic more.

[Roc Ness]

I'm not sure if anyone has already brought this up but Miko and Eugene aren't villains or anti-villains as someone said. They are ANTI-HEROES

Why? as while they are technically fighting a common enemy as the heroes, they do not cooperate with and often get in the way of the heroes

[Xesirin]

I'm using two rankings. The order of them is the order of how threatening they are. The number is how cool they were (to me)

1) The Snarl. Unmakes creation. Pure malice. 10/10. 'nuff said.
2) Redcloak. Even though Xykon is (probably) more evil, more powerful, and more sadistic, redcloak strikes me as the sort of man behind the man (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheManBehindTheMan) that makes stories more epic. 10/10
3) Kubota. Crafty, fiendish, clever... but ultimately not clever enough. He gets points for having manipulated a noble ruling class for so long, but loses them on account of the fact that a hero more agressive than Elan would have easily killed him without sacrificing their morals. 8/10
4) Miko. Paladin who went crazy because of her own power. But died too soon. If she'd been raised as a sort of crypt stalker or something... Then we'd be talking. But nope. 4/10
5) MitD. Yeah, he's down the list. Even though he possesses unimaginable power, (and is probably a fragment of the snarl) he doesn't have a killing desire. He still has a chance to dominate everything, but it won't be because he wants to, and that'll ruin it for him. 7/10
6) Eugene Greenhilt. It's debated whether he's a villain or not. I would argue that he IS... but under the definition of an antagonist, less a true villain. He's served as help for Roy many times, but something tells me that his role will play out more to serve against Roy than to help him. 3/10
7) Xykon. Further down than MitD! Because he has control of his abilities, and therefore isn't particularly likely to explode or something. Whatever he's done in the past, whether it was the slaughter of Dorukan, or the killing of Roy, his drive is gone. This may change as time goes on, but as it stands, he's down here. 8/10
8) The Linear Guild. Ah, here we are. Finally. The problem with these guys is that they were barely equals with the Order when the comic began, and by this point, the Guild easily is more powerful then them vis-a-vis, PLUS they are 3 members short. Not a threat. 5/10

Let the complaints to my screwy system reign! :smalltongue:

[Liwen]

You can't use the term anti-hero to define Eugene and Mike, because they are not the main protagonists of the story. Remain aware that titles such a "villain", "anti-villain" etc are given story wise and most often from the point of view of the main heroes. Eugene is a pain in the ass, but he actually helped Roy and the Order on more than one occasion. Remember the foreshadowing? The fact that without him, Shojo would problably never have elaborated the plan that put the Order back on track with the main story? He can't even qualify as atagonist,

Now my rating!

Raw power rating:

1.The Snarl : Can unmake a world and a complete pantheon in under 27 mins. Enough said.
2.MitD : I don't think Xykon could provoke and massive crack in the ground make faintly stomping the ground. Also, his lightest hit transforms people and horses into living projectiles capable of peircing a stone wall.
3. Xykon : Has shown to be quite powerfull and deadly went he puts his mind to it. Yet he faced potentially fatals situations quite often, Soon for example, so he's not invincible.
4. Redcloak :Very powefull, especially when he has time to prepare for and upcoming battle. His intellect makes him even more powerfull than his actual cleric skills. Controls a army of over 15000 hobos.
5. Miko, has proven to be able to beat the entire Order, safe for Durkon, single handlely, bested Redcloak in a dual, though he could have won it no sweat had he known the most powerfull member of the saphire guard was present at that tower.
6. Bozzok : In terms of raw power, this guy can down Haley in a single well placed sneak attack, very close to epic, but rogues are one the lamest class for combat in the 3,5 edition.
7. Leeky Windstaff : Druids FTW. but this one lacked a few levels.
8. Samantha : Was capable of dealing with half of the Order single handlely. Bonus points for power of sexyness which makes every single man flatfooted and fascinate until she strikes.
9. Sabine, with all the defenses and speacial abilities her kind gets, she can be a serious threat for anyone, even Roy. Also, for some wicked people, power of sexyness again.
10. Thog/Nale : Those two are about equal, what thog lacks in intelligence, he gets in raw physical power, and what Nale missed in brute force, he gets with his curning mind.

I won't go over top ten, but other notable atagonist and villains includes : Quarr, Sam's father, the Black dragon, etc.

it's getting late, let's speed this up

Funny top ten :

1.MitD. He his 110% made out of Jokes
2.Xykon. Psychopathic saddic boredom motivated punch line bombarding machine of doom!
3. Thog. GROUP HUG! ICE CREAM! YAY I'M BEHEADING PEOPLE!
4 Everyone else his not funny enough to be considered here.

Story quality

1. Redcloak : Best backstory award and lotta future developpement to come!
2. Xykon : Read SoD if you don't get this one.
3. Miko : Nice character overall. Her story and actions played a critical role in the shapping of the current universe.
4. Kubota : He could have been so much more, but aristocrats tend to be kinda weak. Has one the more elaborated Backstory nonetheless.
5. Snarl : He DOES has a backgroung story, and a godhoodish epic one of that.
6. Nale : The last villain who actually has a story, but not very original. This guy a cliché mounted on sticks.

My top three overall : MitD, Redcloak and Xykon. Wow, that's the three original villains!

[JonestheSpy]

Honestly, considering how fixated he was on the title "Lord of Azure City"...if he had killed Hinjo and seized control of the fleet, he probably would have gone back to Azure City and expected the hobgoblins to fall over before his superior human forces, and Redcloak would have swatted him like a bug.

Actually, I suspect that Kubota what have had no idea what to do if he'd actually succeeded. Most evil involves pretty short-term thinking, IMHO. THink of all the petty dictators who manage to sieze power then just run the theri country into the ground...

Which brings me to personal fave Bozzok. I think he gets short shrift because his goals aren't particularly ambitious in the grand scheme and becasue he's only been in a comparatively small number of strips, but I like him a lot. I think he's a great satire on your real-world profit-is-king capitalist. Gotta love melee dialogiue like:

"You have to understand, our entire business model relies on exclusivity."

and

"Your purchasing habits are at your own discretion."