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Zergrusheddie
2009-01-15, 10:51 AM
So, I'm playing with a bunch of Veteran players who have carved out characters that, while not on a level of Pun-Pun or anything, are pretty damn powerful. We have a Fighter with a Falchion with Power Knockdown (on crit, roll versus damage as a Strength or Dex check not to be tripped), a Rogue who has gone TWF with Rapier and Telling Blow (on crit, gain Sneak Attack damage), a Warlock, and a Wizard who is shooting out 10d6 Fireballs with a DC:23 at level 5. My Monk just can't keep up with even the Cleric and his Undead Army...

My Monk hits less than the Rogue and does far less damage than anyone. The DM has a policy that at anytime your character can walk off into the sunset and a new character comes forth with equal gear value and the exact same experience. This is becoming extremely enticing...

I have a concept of using a Ranger/Fighter who uses TWF with Bastard Swords via the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting or a plain ol' Clericzilla with Persistent Spell Divine Power, Power Attack, and a Greatsword. However, I hear that the true Melee Damage Machine is a Frenzied Berserker. Can they actually do damage when they are suffering from a low +hit because of Power Attack? I am no genius at making power characters, so I reach out the the Great GitP Forums, what should a Frenzied Berserker build look like?

Some random information:
We are using a 40-point buy.
Feats every 2 levels (1, 3, 5, etc...)
It's entirely an Evil Campaign. My LE Monk is probably on the chopping block anyway...
The group uses DnD as an excuse to have tactile combat, not for RP reasons. Function > Form.

So, can anyone help an imbecile out?
Best of luck.
-Eddie

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-15, 11:01 AM
Do you have Tome of Battle? If you wanted a more effective Monk, Swordsages are pretty good (I don't know how to cheese them out, but a lot of people will recommend them over Monks). The Divine Metamagic Cleric would probably be a better choice: Frenzied Berzerkers are a liability to the rest of the group unless smeone can cast Hold Person or Calm Emotions.

Project_Mayhem
2009-01-15, 11:04 AM
Wizard 5.

Hold on and I'll link to the definitive guide. Then you'll see 'actual' optimization.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19085&highlight=guide+batman) you go. By the fact that he's chuckin' out Fireballs as his most impressive feature, I'm making the assumption that the other wizard is going blasty. Focus on utility and debuffs yourself.

If you don't want to wizard, then a cleric or druid is a pretty solid choice, that will fill a misisng niche in the party. Neither need massive optimization to be great, but check your domains and spell choice because some are traps.

In any case, searching for 'x guide' or 'x handbook' on the wizards forums usually gives some good ideas.

Zergrusheddie
2009-01-15, 11:09 AM
I have ToB, but I've played a Swordsage and didn't like them for some reason. I know that the FB is REALLY likely to *try* to kill the party once the enemies hit the floor, but I think it would go perfect with the nature of the party...

To anyone who has tried them, how are they? I know that with a Two-hander, Supreme Power Attack, and Leap Attack, their ratio gets completely silly, but can they keep up with a Evoker Wizard or the sustained damage of a Warlock?

Y'all are awesome.
-Eddie

EDIT: Why do I mistake Duskblades and Swordsages.....

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-15, 11:17 AM
I'm planning on making a Vulpine ( http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95436 ) Swordsage, but I've never used a ToB class properly (I've not got to test my Lupin Crusader yet). Project_Mayhem has a point about focussing on de-buffs and battlefield control if you're a Wizard (that guide is good).

EDIT: Sorry for not getting your question initially. I've never tried an FB before, but from what I've heard, they can definitly keep up with Evokers due to direct damage spells often not being that good.

Draz74
2009-01-15, 11:29 AM
There's lots of ways besides Frenzied Berserker to make a true melee-damage monster.

Swordsage really can work. One easy-but-effective Swordsage build is just dual-wielding kukris, maxxing Concentration and Jump, and focusing on Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw maneuvers. Stay in the Blood in the Water stance most of the time, maximize your kukris' crit range (either Improved Critical or Keen), and pick maneuvers that give you mobility, more attacks, special effects on crits, or special effects with good Jump checks. (You can dip into the Insightful Strike and X Nightmare Blade stuff too, for some more easy damage when your regular strategy isn't working.) Make sure to take the Adaptive Style feat ASAP. This build's one problem is that it is pretty MAD (Str, Dex, Con, Wis). You can go Warblade with this same idea, too, and be a little less MAD. For bonus points, be a Raptoran for +10 Jump, or even a Thri-Kreen for +30 Jump/psionic synergy/quadruple-wielding.

King of Smack psychic warriors are another viable path. So are Dungeoncrashing Fighters.

Zergrusheddie
2009-01-15, 11:31 AM
Wizard 5.
If you don't want to wizard, then a cleric or druid is a pretty solid choice, that will fill a misisng niche in the party. Neither need massive optimization to be great, but check your domains and spell choice because some are traps.

In any case, searching for 'x guide' or 'x handbook' on the wizards forums usually gives some good ideas.

I've read the Druid Handbook, but I still do not really understand how Druids are considered so powerful. In our last campaign, one of the players made a Druid who was about as effective as a Rogues using a Bow outside of Sneak Range. Maybe he just screwed up?

Project_Mayhem
2009-01-15, 12:07 PM
Druid is strong because it has 3 class reatures that would probably each carry a class on their own :smallbiggrin:

Once you hit level 6, with wildshape and natural spell, the druid can all at once be a full caster, be a melee beast, and have a melee beast mate.

Zergrusheddie
2009-01-15, 12:17 PM
D
Once you hit level 6, with wildshape and natural spell, the druid can all at once be a full caster, be a melee beast, and have a melee beast mate.

Which animals would be best to morph into?

Keld Denar
2009-01-15, 12:27 PM
I've read the Druid Handbook, but I still do not really understand how Druids are considered so powerful. In our last campaign, one of the players made a Druid who was about as effective as a Rogues using a Bow outside of Sneak Range. Maybe he just screwed up?

Yea, he was pretty much doing it wrong. At your level, a druid would be summoning. SNAIII would net you 1d3 Hipogriffs, which, with Augemented Summoning would be doing more damage than just about anyone in your party, by themselves. You should also have a hefty pet, due to Nature Bond, probably either a Fleshraker Dinosaur (MMIII) or like, a Brown Bear, with its obscene str for the level and Imp Grab. Next level, you'd nab Natural Spell and another WS use, which would allow you to be in WS form 12 hours a day, and still retain use of all your casting. Turn into a Fleshraker yourself, and between the 2 of you, you'll outdamage any 2 PCs combined. Then add in the fact that you could probably get 1d3 hipogriffs on the table in the opening round which would allow you, your AC, and the 2ish hippogriffs to be doing about as much damage as any 3 of the other players at the table. It only gets worse from there.

Frenzied Berzerker doesn't really come into his own until about level 9, since you have to get into the class, and then you need about 4 levels for it to get good. Solo, the FB is ok, but well supported and well buffed is when hes truely rediculously scary. Regarding to hit bonus while supreme PAing, try using the Shocktrooper tactical feat in Complete Warrrior. Heedless Rush allows you to sacrifice your AC instead of your +hit, allowing you to swing at full accuracy while getting that really nasty 3-1 or 4-1 PA, which doubles with Leap Attack to 6-1 or 8-1, depending on how far into FB you are in. A basic build would be:

Full Orc
1 Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 Headlong Rush
2 Fighter1 Power Attack
3 Fighter2 Intimidating Rage, Improved Bullrush
4 Fighter3
5 Fighter4 Cleave
6 Barbarian 2 Destructive Rage
7 FB1
8 FB2
9 FB3 Shocktrooper
10 FB4
11 FB5
12 FB6 Leap Attack

Headlong Rush (orc only) doubles your damage on a charge, Spirit Lion Totem allows a full attack at the end of that charge, and with Shocktrooper, you won't lose accuracy. Leap Attack makes things stupid, and if you could get a +1 Valorous weapon, you'd be converting like, 36-1 on PA. When you hit FB10, you'll be converting 48-1, thats +48 damage for every 1 penalty you take from your attack bonus, which is really your armor class, which is so low anyway, it doesn't matter. Also factor in the +4 str you get from rage and the +10 you get from frenzy, and you'll be looking at easily 600-700 damage per hit at level 12, closer to 1000 per hit by 16, which will also be full attacking charges, thanks to Spirit Lion Totem. That means with 6 attacks/round including Frenzy, Haste, and a Cleave, you'll be doing about 6000 damage at level 16 among at least 2 different foes. Yea, you'll be able to drop what, 5 Tarrasques per round, provided you could get them all in your reach. Oh, and thats not including crits, which, with a Keen Great Sword, would be about once every other round.

But do you REALLY want to do this? Likely in a Frenzy, you'll turn on your friends after liquidating the opposition, you'll likely turn on your party. You could probably kill the wizard with a fart, your character will be so powerful, and then cleave into the rogue, slicing him from crown to crotch so fast, he won't realize hes dead till the pieces slide apart. FB is really silly and stupid, and playing one to this degree is more of a mental excercise to go ooooohhhhhh when the pretty numbers flash across your screen. It really doesnt mean anything, except possibly that your entire party has to roll new characters.

And from the way you've described it, your party isn't as "Super Optimized" as you've said. Your rogue is using Telling Blow, which, while ok, is not a terribly optimized style, and your wizard is evoking...shudder.

You want to be really effective, yet not overshadowing and very much group supporting? Play a Bardblade. Bard4/Warblade1 at your current level. Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost, and a Badge of Valor bring your Inspire Courage ability up to +4/+4, which, with Dragonfire Inspiration means +4d6 damage on each attack for you and all your allies. Then get a pair of short swords and the TWF feat and go to town with some Tiger Claw maneuvers. At your level, Steel Wind is as good as Pounce, and you also have Sudden Leap for combat maneuverability. Mountain Hammer is great against things with DR. In 2 levels, you pick up Dancing Mongoose, a boost which gives you an extra attack with each weapon, meaning 4 attacks per round, each at +4d6 fire damage. That level you should also pick up Song of the White Raven, which allows your Bard and Warblade levels to stack to determine your Inspire Courage, which should be about to jump to +5d6 with each hit. Keep going Warblade and get more TWF feats and more Tiger Claw maneuvers, suplimenting Iron Heart when needed until you get Pouncing Charge. By then, you should be shredding just about everything with your duel fiery short swords of fury. Its fun, but not rediculously stupid like FB.

Telonius
2009-01-15, 12:46 PM
Yeah, he wasn't doing it right. Just in Core, Dire Badger is best to start off at level 6, then Dire Wolf at 8, Dire Bear at 12.

Zergrusheddie
2009-01-15, 12:53 PM
Frenzied Berzerker doesn't really come into his own until about level 9, since you have to get into the class, and then you need about 4 levels for it to get good. Solo, the FB is ok, but well supported and well buffed is when hes truely rediculously scary. Regarding to hit bonus while supreme PAing, try using the Shocktrooper tactical feat in Complete Warrrior. Heedless Rush allows you to sacrifice your AC instead of your +hit, allowing you to swing at full accuracy while getting that really nasty 3-1 or 4-1 PA, which doubles with Leap Attack to 6-1 or 8-1, depending on how far into FB you are in. A basic build would be:

Full Orc
1 Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 Headlong Rush
2 Fighter1 Power Attack
3 Fighter2 Intimidating Rage, Improved Bullrush
4 Fighter3
5 Fighter4 Cleave
6 Barbarian 2 Destructive Rage
7 FB1
8 FB2
9 FB3 Shocktrooper
10 FB4
11 FB5
12 FB6 Leap Attack

Headlong Rush (orc only) doubles your damage on a charge, Spirit Lion Totem allows a full attack at the end of that charge, and with Shocktrooper, you won't lose accuracy. Leap Attack makes things stupid, and if you could get a +1 Valorous weapon, you'd be converting like, 36-1 on PA. When you hit FB10, you'll be converting 48-1, thats +48 damage for every 1 penalty you take from your attack bonus, which is really your armor class, which is so low anyway, it doesn't matter. Also factor in the +4 str you get from rage and the +10 you get from frenzy, and you'll be looking at easily 600-700 damage per hit at level 12, closer to 1000 per hit by 16, which will also be full attacking charges, thanks to Spirit Lion Totem. That means with 6 attacks/round including Frenzy, Haste, and a Cleave, you'll be doing about 6000 damage at level 16 among at least 2 different foes. Yea, you'll be able to drop what, 5 Tarrasques per round, provided you could get them all in your reach. Oh, and thats not including crits, which, with a Keen Great Sword, would be about once every other round.


You want to be really effective, yet not overshadowing and very much group supporting? Play a Bardblade. Bard4/Warblade1 at your current level. Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost, and a Badge of Valor bring your Inspire Courage ability up to +4/+4, which, with Dragonfire Inspiration means +4d6 damage on each attack for you and all your allies. Then get a pair of short swords and the TWF feat and go to town with some Tiger Claw maneuvers. At your level, Steel Wind is as good as Pounce, and you also have Sudden Leap for combat maneuverability. Mountain Hammer is great against things with DR. In 2 levels, you pick up Dancing Mongoose, a boost which gives you an extra attack with each weapon, meaning 4 attacks per round, each at +4d6 fire damage. That level you should also pick up Song of the White Raven, which allows your Bard and Warblade levels to stack to determine your Inspire Courage, which should be about to jump to +5d6 with each hit. Keep going Warblade and get more TWF feats and more Tiger Claw maneuvers, suplimenting Iron Heart when needed until you get Pouncing Charge. By then, you should be shredding just about everything with your duel fiery short swords of fury. Its fun, but not rediculously stupid like FB.

Holy Jesus Christ... 6000 a hit at 17?! Ok, to Hell with FB; I didn't realize that it would be that stupid.

Where can I find a build for the Bardblade? That sounds like the perfect thing for me; it seems like it can do great damage and the fact that I can buff a significantly melee group (Fighter, Rogue, Cleric and his 6 skellies, and the Warlock with his 2-4 skellies) means that I won't want to be killed by the group.

Oh, great master of the forums, can you flesh-out a Bardblade build?

Tokiko Mima
2009-01-15, 01:09 PM
If you want to try out something experimental that no one else is likely to have, fill a role it doesn't seem like anyone else is, and still want to be a bit more melee focused I have an idea that works at about level 5.

Try playing a Karsite Dragonfire Adept with a tower shield and mithril fullplate enchanted as high as possible. You can save money on a weapon since you'll be making supernatural breath attacks instead of attack rolls 90% of the time. Try to choose 24 hour duration Draconic Invocations, like the one that makes your allies immune to your breath weapon, and other stuff that can be cast out of battle so ASF is not an issue.

The idea is that you roll into a location and start distracting the enemy with constant flame/acid/frost/lightning breath area attacks. This means the the enemy will want to focus on you, which is great because as a Karsite you are as spell resistant as a drow plus you heal when a spell fails to beat your SR, you get energy resistance from being a Dragonfire Adept, and hopefully you've boosted your AC to the point where hitting you is very unlikely.

Because your primary weapon is Supernatural (not an SLA), your armor and tower shield have no real drawbacks and draw no AoO even when used up close. If any foe starts giving you real problems, use the Karsite magic item draining touch to nerf their weapon bonuses, or lower their resistance to your dragon breath.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-15, 01:26 PM
I don't think Natural Bond works with Druids unless you multi-class. You may also want to look into a ridiculously overpowered PrC called the Planar Shepherd which gives you bonuses on top of all the other Druid abilities (I can't remember exactly what it does, though).

Keld Denar
2009-01-15, 02:33 PM
First of all, the FB number I gave was about 1k per hit, or 6k per round, provided there was enough stuff there to shred though, which there wouldn't. Regardless, that was something I put together in 2 minutes, there are builds over on the CharOp forums that easily crested 2-3 times what I had. FB is just silly, an unfortunate stacking of geometric damage progression.

A Bardblade is just what I call them. Its a blend of a litle Bard, and a little Warblade. Warblade is a base class in the book Tome of Battle, Book of 9 Swords, a neat little suppliment that introduces a new concept called Martial Adepts which use maneuvers that are behave similar to spells, in the fact that the scale with level and whatnot.

Hmmm, my bardblade build is thus


Silverbrow Human (Dragon Magic for details on SB Humans)
Bard1 Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic again), Two Weapon Fighting
Bard2
Bard3 Song of the Heart (Ebberon Campaign Setting)
Bard4
Warblade1
Warblade2 Song fo the White Raven
Warblade3
Warblade4
Warblade5 Improved TWF, Improved Init (B)
Warblade6
Warblade7
Warblade8 Greater TWF, Blade Meditation (Tiger Claw) (B)
Warblade9 and so on...

Maneuvers Known

{table=head]ECL|IL|Maneuver Gain|Maneuver Lost|Stance
1|0|NA|NA|NA
2|1|NA|NA|NA
3|1|NA|NA|NA
4|2|NA|NA|NA
5|3|Steel Wind, Rabid Wolf Strike, Sudden Leap|NA|Punishing
6|4|Tactical Strikes|NA|NA
7|5|Flesh Ripper|NA|NA
8|6|White Raven Tactics|Tactical Strike|Absolute Steel
9|7|Iron Heart Surge|NA|NA
10|8|Fountain of Blood|Rabid Wolf Strike|NA
11|9|Pouncing Charge|NA|NA
12|10|Dancing Mongoose|Steel Wind|NA
13|11|Covering Strike|NA|NA
14|12|Order Forged From Chaos|Covering Strike|Press the Advantage
15|13|Swooping Dragon Strike|NA|NA
16|14|Swarming Assault|Fountain of Blood|NA
17|15|Raging Mongoose|NA|NA
18|16|White Raven Hammer|Flesh Ripper|NA
19|17|Warmaster's Charge|NA|NA
20|18|Mountain Tombstone Strike|Swooping Dragon Strike|Swarm Tactics[/table]


Actually, duel wield a pair of Kukiri's, a Tiger Claw weapon. Prioritize Str > Dex > Con > Int > Cha > Wis. You do need at least an 11 Cha though. Relevant gear would include a Badge of Valor (Magic Item Compendium), a Vest of Legends (DMGII), and any of the standard fighter type stuff like Boots of Speed, +str, con, and dex stuff, +resistance stuff, flight, teleportation, and the like. The only spell you need to know is Inspirational Boost, a Brd1 spell from Spell Compedium. Your buff round is such:
Swift Action - cast Insp Boost
Standard Action - begin to Inspire Courage
Move Action - do whatever, probably close with foes
Immediate Action - as soon as your end your turn, activate your Badge of Valor to crank up your IC another point.

Maneuver progression is up, critique would be great. Tried to stick mostly with Iron Heart, White Raven, and of course Tiger Claw.

Tacoma
2009-01-15, 02:40 PM
One player I played with had a truly crazy character. I don't remember its exact build but it was a Wild Shape class and Frenzied Berzerker. Then it had some kind of special Wild Shape PrC that let him turn into this insane bear or something, giving an incredible STR and CON bonus. He'd buff himself up with some spells, use a #/day Enlarge, turn into a bear and rage.

I might suggest the build revolving around jumping to attack. I forget what it's called. Have you looked through the "character builds" thread on this forum?

Zergrusheddie
2009-01-15, 02:48 PM
Thank you. The 'Bardblade' looks pretty fun, and if it scales decently it should be pretty powerful.

Keld Denar
2009-01-15, 03:08 PM
One player I played with had a truly crazy character. I don't remember its exact build but it was a Wild Shape class and Frenzied Berzerker. Then it had some kind of special Wild Shape PrC that let him turn into this insane bear or something, giving an incredible STR and CON bonus. He'd buff himself up with some spells, use a #/day Enlarge, turn into a bear and rage.

Bear Warrior is the class. Unfortunately, its 10 levels long, as is Frenzied Berzerker, so you can't get all the goodies of each. You also need 2 levels of Warshaper or Gloves of Man (Savage Species) to be able to wield a sword in bear form to take real advantage of all of that str.


I might suggest the build revolving around jumping to attack. I forget what it's called. Have you looked through the "character builds" thread on this forum?
The feat is either Battle Jump, a regional feat from Unapproachable East which can only be taken at 1st level, or Leap Attack, one of the feats already mentioned above. BTW, both Leap Attack and Battle Jump can be used in the same action. I like Headlong Rush, the orcish racial charging feat better because a) you are an orc, which is good for str and b) you don't have to pull off an INSANE jump check to leap over the head of a huge creature to attack it, and c) there is no uncomfortable landing, not that you'll really feel it much in the depth of a Frenzy, but still...

Tacoma
2009-01-15, 03:15 PM
Bear Warrior is the class. Unfortunately, its 10 levels long, as is Frenzied Berzerker, so you can't get all the goodies of each. You also need 2 levels of Warshaper or Gloves of Man (Savage Species) to be able to wield a sword in bear form to take real advantage of all of that str.

The feat is either Battle Jump, a regional feat from Unapproachable East which can only be taken at 1st level, or Leap Attack, one of the feats already mentioned above. BTW, both Leap Attack and Battle Jump can be used in the same action. I like Headlong Rush, the orcish racial charging feat better because a) you are an orc, which is good for str and b) you don't have to pull off an INSANE jump check to leap over the head of a huge creature to attack it, and c) there is no uncomfortable landing, not that you'll really feel it much in the depth of a Frenzy, but still...

For the jump character I meant the whole build. I think it uses Leap Attack, Power Attack, a two-handed weapon, and a bunch of other stuff. It's completely insane. I'm looking for it now.

Keld Denar
2009-01-15, 04:03 PM
For the jump character I meant the whole build. I think it uses Leap Attack, Power Attack, a two-handed weapon, and a bunch of other stuff. It's completely insane. I'm looking for it now.

Try searching for "Little Red Raiding Hood" or something like that. Its over on the CharOp forums, and is basically a D&D rendition of a Final Fantasy Dragoon.

EDIT:
Maneuver known progression is up for the Bardblade.

Charlie Kemek
2009-01-15, 06:07 PM
Try searching for "Little Red Raiding Hood" or something like that. Its over on the CharOp forums, and is basically a D&D rendition of a Final Fantasy Dragoon.

EDIT:
Maneuver known progression is up for the Bardblade.

OP said feats every 2 levels, not three, so you need a few more feats, and a little moving of them.

Keld Denar
2009-01-15, 06:35 PM
OP said feats every 2 levels, not three, so you need a few more feats, and a little moving of them.

Meh, move everything down that can be moved down, and fill in the rest with whatever. Its already got all the feats it needs. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

Heliomance
2009-01-15, 07:01 PM
Two words.

Hulking Hurler.

Zergrusheddie
2009-01-15, 09:28 PM
How can you get level 2 Maneuvers at level 1 though? Can you choose when to get them?

Keld Denar
2009-01-15, 09:37 PM
The only restricters on which maneuvers you can select are prereqs and IL. Since you get 1/2 IL per non-initator level, the 4 bard levels gives you an IL of 2, which means your first Warblade level gives you an IL of 3, high enough to learn 2nd level manuevers. The ones I picked don't have any or very many prereqs. You still always have to pick a 1st level stance with SS1, Cru1, or War1, because that is explicitly called out, no matter what your IL would be.

Zergrusheddie
2009-01-15, 09:50 PM
Where does the brunt of the damage for this build? Which maneuvers are worth doing? With Dragonfire Inspiration, it seems like doing 2 attacks is better than doing 1 attack +2d6.

gorfnab
2010-05-16, 02:15 AM
You may also want to look into a ridiculously overpowered PrC called the Planar Shepherd which gives you bonuses on top of all the other Druid abilities (I can't remember exactly what it does, though).
Planar Shepard Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871574/The_Planar_Shepherd_Handbook?pg=1)
And yes it is ridiculously overpowered.
Otherwise as stated before a "Hood (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7200.0)" build can be really fun and powerful.

Vaynor
2010-05-16, 02:30 AM
My Monk

There's your problem.