PDA

View Full Version : Replacing the Wizard and Sorcerer



Greengiant
2009-01-15, 01:55 PM
This may have been done before, but I haven't seen it as of yet. I'm a little tired about sorcerers, knowing about the limited amount of spells they have, selecting all blaster spells. Also, I'm tired of wizards super-batmanning the crap out of everything, and anti-blasting.

My solution? To mix them. Make a single "Mage" or "Spellcaster" class, and eliminate both wizard and sorcerer. Anyone want to help?

So, lets first look at the differences between the classes. A wizard's spells are based on int, his reading of books, learning spells, and memorizing the ones he wants to cast.

A sorcerer's spells are based off charisma, and he casts spells from instinct, "just knowing" how to cast that certain spell.

How to mix them? I have some ideas.

More spells per day than wizard, but less than sorcerer.

More spells known than a sorcerer, but they must be learnt like a wizard, and you can only know a certain ammount, like a sorcerer.

Natural proficiency and weakness with spell types will replace school specialization, but pretty much work the same.

Thoughts?

Kurald Galain
2009-01-15, 02:02 PM
You haven't unified their primary distinction yet (which, indeed, is the only reason the sorcerer class exists in the first place): some people like Vancian memorization, other people like at-will casting what you know.

Tacoma
2009-01-15, 02:06 PM
If you remove spellbooks, you're removing a big part of the D&D flavor. It's worthwhile to look at it, but that's an issue.

But if you make the contents of a spellbook as the limiting factor Wizards will just stow their libraries in Bags of Holding and you're back to square one.

2E D&D had a system where you rolled to see if you could learn a given spell. The way the game rules had you do it was funky - instead of the system given we had the Magic-User roll when he tried to learn that spell. If he failed he couldn't learn it until next level when he could try again. But high INT results in virtual guarantee of a learn spells chance. There was also a "maximum spells per spell level" INT feature but that seemed stupid. A dumb guy can't have a big library? We know that's false. A dumb guy can have any objects if he has enough money.

I think making every Wizard a specialist would be cool. But instead of being restricted from your opposition school, you cast those spells at half caster level. You get an extra spell to memorize of your school per spell level and you can spontaneously cast memorized spells as any other spell of your school at that level or lower that you have in spellbooks.

Use the Wizard spell chart outright. You really don't need more spell slots especially with magic items and PrC and stuff granting extra slots.

sonofzeal
2009-01-15, 02:22 PM
Oh joy, controversy.

IMO, the way to fix Wizard is simple - eliminate adding to the spellbook whilly nilly. Batman relies on always having the right tool for the job, and as long as your plot consistently throws curveballs and his spell list is limited (and, honestly, both of those is how it should be), "Batman" becomes entirely manageable.

IMO, there's nothing seriously wrong with Sorcs. I'd eliminate those poorly-thought-out "sorcerer-only" spells (Wings of Flurry, I'm looking at YOU). I might also replace the class entirely with the Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) variant, add full martial weapon proficiencies, and highly encourage players to take the Eldritch Knight PrC.

As for general spellcasting fixes.... I'd give everyone, PCs and enemies alike, a universal +4 on any saving throw against a "save or die" effect (Sleep, Baleful Polymorph, Dominate but not Charm, etc) to make them more difficult but reinforce how scary they are. I might also include the same bonus on any saving throw that means almost-certain death if it's failed, such as a fireball when health is critical - this means that spellcasters can still do a lot of damage, shape the battlefield, make it so their allies win... but it's down to the melee types to mop things up. This also helps keep PCs alive longer, and helps the whole "sudden death" syndrome, where death is rapid and unexpected, not to mention anticlimactic. A +4 still allows those things to work, especially if you're nuking a tribe of Orcs with a 5th level spell (they'll fail the save anyway), but IMO would lead to a better and more balanced game at higher level.

Oh, and I'd limit any spellcasting PrC to 9/10 or 4/5 advancement at the absolute highest. No PrC should offer spellcasting advancement at the first level, but they can have full advancement after that. That means some (like Wild Mage and Master Specialist) have their advancement reduced, while some (like Mindbender) simply have it rearranged slightly. At the same time, I'd increase anything with 1/2 advancement up to 2/3 minimum.

End result - Wizards can't Batman but can still contribute at all levels, and Sorcerers can't Nuke but now have reasonable martial power to provide durability and flexibility.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-15, 05:59 PM
IMO, the way to fix Wizard is simple - eliminate adding to the spellbook whilly nilly.
Actually this was part of the charm of a 2E wizard. Since generally you'd have 70-80% chance to succesfully learn a spell (and no, you couldn't easily boost that to 99% because ability score boosts in 2E were virtually non-existent) - this means that you are not guaranteed to have the exact spell uber combo that you want. Instead, you have to be creative with what you get.

Berserk Monk
2009-01-15, 10:00 PM
Appears too much like a sorcerer. How about this: they can choose to enter a state each morning kind of like preparing spells that allow them to cast a certain number of spells more powerfully (maybe eliminate the increased caster level for metamagic feats and apply the effects to the spells). This can only be used for a number of spells equal to your caster level and you have to have the metamagic feat. That help.

P.S. This is the post that made me an orc in the playground.

Saint Nil
2009-01-15, 10:14 PM
IMO, the way to fix Wizard is simple - eliminate adding to the spellbook whilly nilly. Batman relies on always having the right tool for the job, and as long as your plot consistently throws curveballs and his spell list is limited (and, honestly, both of those is how it should be), "Batman" becomes entirely manageable.

IMO, there's nothing seriously wrong with Sorcs. I'd eliminate those poorly-thought-out "sorcerer-only" spells (Wings of Flurry, I'm looking at YOU). I might also replace the class entirely with the Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) variant, add full martial weapon proficiencies, and highly encourage players to take the Eldritch Knight PrC.




Quoted for truth.

The best way to stop Batman is too make him pick some spells, and stick with them. Offer the reward of an ancient spellbook occasionally, but no more "every spell in existince" junk.

Also, sorcerers are powerful in their own right when used properly. Ignore those feats that incourage the silly notion that the only way to be a sorcerer is if your great-great-great-great-great grandmother slept around with anything that isn't human. Sorcerers only have a certain knowledge, but brute force has advantge over flexability at times.

TheCountAlucard
2009-01-15, 10:46 PM
You might take a look at the way the Dread Necromancer is written up for some ideas. It has a fixed spell list from which it casts spontaneously, like a Sorceror, but has a much larger number of spells known than a Sorceror of its level, and a bit of versatility allowing it to pick spells from other lists.

FMArthur
2009-01-16, 01:20 AM
I would actually really like to build a class where you choose to be a spontaneous caster, a prepared caster, or anywhere in between - with your spell slots divided between the two. And if you go fully spontaneous, it almost fully equals a sorceror, and likewise for prepared and wizard. It's just really difficult to come up with workable ratios of the value of each type, so I haven't attempted it yet.

ericgrau
2009-01-16, 01:54 AM
The sorc I first played was a "batman" - i.e., battlefield control - sorc, and it worked out extremely well. That was before I ever heard the term "batman wizard", btw. He also had tons of cheap scrolls so he was far more boy-scoutish than the party wizard who didn't. Really sorcs will do well at any specialty at all, just as long as they specialize. Heck, out of all the specialties I'd say they're hampered the most at blasting b/c the power of blast spells is really level dependant and there's little need for spontaneous metamagic. You already know exactly how you're gonna metamagic way ahead of time, so there's no advantage over a prepared caster. OTOH they can blast longer for long fights, but they can keep up other styles longer too.

IMO if you just want 1 full arcane casting class, go back in time and leave yourself with 1 caster only, i.e. the wizard. If you want more varied sorcs, introduce them to some casting strat w/o introducing them to "omg sorcs suxxors!"

Zeful
2009-01-16, 02:03 AM
IMO, there's nothing seriously wrong with Sorcs. I'd eliminate those poorly-thought-out "sorcerer-only" spells (Wings of Flurry, I'm looking at YOU).Actually I'd add more Sorc only spells because they showed up first. If a settings history went back far enough, the Arcane Talents first show up in Sorcerers and Bards so that the Wizards have something to study.

I might also replace the class entirely with the Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) variant, add full martial weapon proficiencies, and highly encourage players to take the Eldritch Knight PrC.Also Sorcs are "fine as they are" but you will nuke them them by encouraging them to take the most useless PrC avalible to them. Eldritch Knight doesn't advance spells known, just spells per day, the only DMG PrCs that give Spells known are Archmage and the Loremaster.

Oh, and I'd limit any spellcasting PrC to 9/10 or 4/5 advancement at the absolute highest. No PrC should offer spellcasting advancement at the first level, but they can have full advancement after that. That means some (like Wild Mage and Master Specialist) have their advancement reduced, while some (like Mindbender) simply have it rearranged slightly. At the same time, I'd increase anything with 1/2 advancement up to 2/3 minimum.Actually I'd pull 4/5 caster advancement max for PrCs that give few or small bonuses (Loremaster and such). But with powerful ones (Shadowcraft Mage, Iot7V, Master Specialist, Incantrix) would have 1/2 or no spell casting advancement for the goodies the classes give you. I'd also make the Archmage resemble the Heirophant (no spellcasting advancement unless you take Spell Power, and then why haven't you continued with the base class?)

sonofzeal
2009-01-16, 04:17 AM
Actually I'd add more Sorc only spells because they showed up first. If a settings history went back far enough, the Arcane Talents first show up in Sorcerers and Bards so that the Wizards have something to study.
Elaborate please?

Also Sorcs are "fine as they are" but you will nuke them them by encouraging them to take the most useless PrC avalible to them. Eldritch Knight doesn't advance spells known, just spells per day, the only DMG PrCs that give Spells known are Archmage and the Loremaster.
Ah, I forgot about that. Yeah, while we're fixing things that could be right on the list too. With spells known progressed, it becomes an entirely reasonable class, with some initial cost (lost spellcasting level) countered by a better progression later on (full spellcasting plus fighterness).

Actually I'd pull 4/5 caster advancement max for PrCs that give few or small bonuses (Loremaster and such). But with powerful ones (Shadowcraft Mage, Iot7V, Master Specialist, Incantrix) would have 1/2 or no spell casting advancement for the goodies the classes give you. I'd also make the Archmage resemble the Heirophant (no spellcasting advancement unless you take Spell Power, and then why haven't you continued with the base class?)
I don't know, I think reducing them to 1/2 advancement would render them utterly worthless. It's like the Metamind problem - you're gaining things that make some of your stuff better, or that replicate high level abilities... but if you'd gone straight Wizard/Psion/whatever you'd be able to cast better stuff, more often. You end up so far off the curve that the class bonuses, while great in theory, pale in comparison to what you'd otherwise be throwing out there. The Metamind class is infamous for that, since the whole concept is around being flooded with power points... but you lose so many Manifester Levels that your power point pool ends up behind, PLUS you have way fewer powers to spend them on. IMO, even with a solid set of class features, anything less than a 2/3 advancement will result in the class being effectively unplayable except for niche or exploitive builds.

But 4/5 progression as a maximum does sound reasonable. I'd make exceptions for classes that require other sacrifices though - Red Wizard and the extra banned school comes to mind. I could even see keeping it as 10/10, but adding a second extra banned school at 6th level. Still, I think it's a good rule of thumb that any PrC should require some sacrifice in exchange for the power it grants.

RMS Oceanic
2009-01-16, 05:25 AM
I'd get rid of the Wizard, give the Sorceror more spells known, and then make all the Spontaneous insta-known-spells casters core.

Elaboration: For each spell level known, a Sorceror would end up with one or two extra spells known. Then we have the Specialist Sorcerors; The Warmage for Evocation, the Beguiler for Illusion and Enchantment, the Dread Necromancer for Necromancy, and I'm sure we could homebrew two or three other classes for Conjuration, Transmutation, Divination and Abjuration.

woodenbandman
2009-01-16, 09:03 AM
The wizard's main problem is that he's too powerful. Out of all the spells, only a handful are gamebreakingly powerful, and everyone worth their bonus spell slots will pick those and prepare them. There is literally no reason at all to prepare and cast Owl's Wisdom as a wizard, you have far far more important things to do, like summon ice beasts and cast Web. Same thing goes for sorcerors. They can break the game in any number of ways, and they will never find themselves wanting for more tricks if they pick the right spells. All a sorceror needs at high levels is Gate, Shapechange, and Time Stop or Prismatic Sphere, and they're invincible.

So what I mean by all this is that the classes aren't broken, it's the spells. The spells are far too powerful.

Darth Stabber
2009-01-16, 09:21 AM
If i find a warmage style class for Transmutation, i am so taking it. May homebrew it myself. shapechanger buffbot go!

Roderick_BR
2009-01-16, 11:50 AM
I've been working on a "wizarcerer" for some time for a homebrew system, and here's some ideas I worked out:

Weapons: All simple weapons
Armor: none
Skills: Combine both skill sets. They're likely to overlap.
Skill points/level: 2 + int (x4 on first level)
Saves: Good will, bad fort and save.
Hit die: d4
Special: Bonus feats like wizard. Extra bonus feat on 1st level instead of familiar.

Spellcasting:

Inteligence: Max spell level/spells day
Charisma: Save DC
Spells/day: As wizard
Spells/known: Any spell you can successful learn (as normal)
Spells/memorized: As Sorcerer's spells known (need to fix that skipped level)

Spells:
With the default 8 hours/rest, all the mage's spell slots are ready. He can cast any spell he have memorized (like a sorcerer does with his spells/known. Using metamagic uses the normal rules.

Preparing spells:
A mage can prepare a spell ahead of time, applying a metamagic feat. That spell remains "locked" into that slot, until you use it, or dismisses it (the spell slot is still used up).

Memorizing spells:
After the default 8 hours/rest, the mage can use a spellbook to replace which spells he currently carries in his mind (spells/memorized). If he doesn't carry a spellbook, he can't change it. He can, of course, only memorize spells he already learned, even if he reads it from some other spellbook. He can use a scroll to memorize a spell, but the scroll's magic is used up.


A 1st level mage can use that metamagic feat for his normal metamagic/item creation/spell mastery feats, or use it to gain access to spellbooks (without this "feat", you can't use spellbooks), or a familiar (familiar can be bough at any time with a normal feat).
The feat SpellMastery allows you to memorize the chosen spells at any time without need of a spellbook (a character without spellbooks can use SpellMastery in place of a spell book to get access to more spells, though it is limited (Int +3,as the normal rule).

This is pretty much a sorcerer that can swap spells, and don't need to wait one more level to get new spell levels.

Mechanically, you can use spellbooks and play a classic wizard, or not use spellbooks at all, and play a "innate magical" sorcerer.

For save-or-lose spells, one idea I'm working is a 2nd save, usually a Fort, to "reduce" an effect. Like, if you suceed in a Fort save after failling the original save, the effect is reduced, but not eliminated. Effects that outright kill, instead reduces you to 0 HP, effects that limits movement/actions, acts as an extended Slow effect, and mind effects that control you, would instead give you a confusion effect (50% of not acting every round), showing how you are fighting the control, but is staggered by it.

Zeful
2009-01-16, 02:34 PM
Elaborate please?A wizard gets it's power through the study of natural phenomenon, much like our scientific process. Divine magic is granted to the caster from another entity, and study of it would show nothing of use except how to grant spells to others. Sorcerers (and Bard) gain their power because of some form of natural phenomenon (random space radiation, the Random Number God, heritage, "slumming it", whatever), studying them would show how they use their own power to bend reality to their whims, and because it's natural, the Wizard can perform experiments to replicate those powers, creating the Schools of magic. That as they say; is that.


Ah, I forgot about that. Yeah, while we're fixing things that could be right on the list too. With spells known progressed, it becomes an entirely reasonable class, with some initial cost (lost spellcasting level) countered by a better progression later on (full spellcasting plus fighterness).

I don't know, I think reducing them to 1/2 advancement would render them utterly worthless. It's like the Metamind problem - you're gaining things that make some of your stuff better, or that replicate high level abilities... but if you'd gone straight Wizard/Psion/whatever you'd be able to cast better stuff, more often. You end up so far off the curve that the class bonuses, while great in theory, pale in comparison to what you'd otherwise be throwing out there. The Metamind class is infamous for that, since the whole concept is around being flooded with power points... but you lose so many Manifester Levels that your power point pool ends up behind, PLUS you have way fewer powers to spend them on. IMO, even with a solid set of class features, anything less than a 2/3 advancement will result in the class being effectively unplayable except for niche or exploitive builds.The only thing Wizards and Sorcerers lose with those prestige classes is Familiar progression, and some of them give substantial bonuses (Better HD, Skill points, Class features) on top of continuing spellcasting. After all the First Rule is "Thou Shalt Not Lose Caster Levels". And stuff like Incantrix and the Archmage provide benefits that are as good as a Caster Level (especially the Archmage who can provide 2 CL per level thanks to Spell Power), which really need some change.


But 4/5 progression as a maximum does sound reasonable. I'd make exceptions for classes that require other sacrifices though - Red Wizard and the extra banned school comes to mind. I could even see keeping it as 10/10, but adding a second extra banned school at 6th level. Still, I think it's a good rule of thumb that any PrC should require some sacrifice in exchange for the power it grants.I agree completely. But loss of Familiar progression isn't an appropriate sacrifice on it's own.

sonofzeal
2009-01-16, 02:47 PM
I agree completely. But loss of Familiar progression isn't an appropriate sacrifice on it's own.
Loss of familiar progression, plus two extra banned schools? That's pretty heavy, IMO.

Mystral
2009-01-16, 03:04 PM
I think the bacculumancer, a german homebrew class that hasn't be translated afaik, is the best one for this.

It basically gives the mage the casting abilities of a sorcerer, but with fewer spells per day. To balance that out, he can retrain his known spells, given a few hours for every spell, and a source, like a scroll or a spellbook.

Zeful
2009-01-16, 03:49 PM
Loss of familiar progression, plus two extra banned schools? That's pretty heavy, IMO.

I'm speaking of classes like the Archmage, which only really give up Familiar Progression.

sonofzeal
2009-01-16, 04:29 PM
I'm speaking of classes like the Archmage, which only really give up Familiar Progression.
Yes, Archmage should move to 4/5 progression, as should Thaumaturgist from the core set. What do you think, 9/10 or 4/5 for Loremaster?

Zeful
2009-01-16, 05:24 PM
Archmage- As Heirophant: No Advancement without selecting Spell Power every level. Alternately, remove Spell Power and 4/5 advancement.

Loremaster-4/5 advancement.

Lycar
2009-01-16, 05:43 PM
The most glaring problem with the spellcasters is the broken spells.

However, another limiting factor might be just how often a mage (or sorceror) can 'go nova'.

How about, use a spell point system... just don't let them refresh all spell points for a night of rest, but only... oh.. say 1d6+x. Let x be the main casting stat modifier maybe. Give a few + for a good night's rest in an inn vs. a couple of - if they spent the night outdoors. Without a tent. In the rain. Without a campfire.

Then mages can still go nova. Once. And they will need a while to recover. So they will think twice about casting that nTh level spell and maybe try to make do with the n-1 or n-2 level spell instead.

Heck, if you really want to make mage pay for their versatility, make each spell a 'skill', like a language. You buy spells with skill points. Maybe 1 per spell level or thereabouts.

Or how about spellcasting is a skill? You can learn spell of whatever level you can get your grubby paws on. Actually successfully casting them however? Make a Spellcast check (stat = main caster stat), DC 10 + (3x spell level) or something. Spend half the spell points on a fizzle.

Caveat: Somehow, no kind of magic seems to help with boosting that particular skill.

So many possibilities...

Lycar