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View Full Version : Con bonus as DR instead of HP?



Dario
2006-10-14, 11:51 PM
Not sure if this is the right forum, so just let me know if it isn't and I'll ask a mod to move it.

Anyway, I've been contemplating starting a PbP game (here or elsewhere), but would like to make some minor tweaks to standard D&D. Most of them are nothing new (such as Base Defense Bonus progressions and armor as DR), so I figure those are probably fine. However, I'm not so sure about this one.

Basically, I don't like the Con bonus to HP at every level rule. It enables too much HP acceleration for my tastes, and doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me (abstract system or not). But if you only allow it at first level, you've just nerfed an otherwise very important ability.

Then I considered having it work as Damage Reduction. But if you let it be a flat rate, it seems far too powerful at lower levels (imagine even lowly warriors with a constant DR of 2, 3, or more). So then it struck me. Just copy the Iron Heroes rules for armor by having Con provide DR 1d(Con mod), as in DR 1d3 for a 16 Con.

The result would be an ability arguably more beneficial than normal at lower levels without being game-breaking, and it could still prove very useful at higher levels. It's possible to roll the maximum, but in the short term you can't rely on anything more than 1 point, and over the long run no more than the die's average.

So, what do you all think of employing this alternative approach to the benefits of Con in a low-magic campaign?

DoomHat
2006-10-15, 12:12 AM
That method seems to throw Hp progression by class out the window though. If you're fine with a Rogue and a Barbarian potentially coming out with equal Hp then forge ahead by all means.

Dario
2006-10-15, 12:15 AM
That method seems to throw Hp progression by class out the window though. If you're fine with a Rogue and a Barbarian positional coming out with equal Hp then forge ahead by all means.
Forgive me, I don't follow. ;D Would using such a variant make enough of a difference to negate the difference between a d12 and d6 hit die?

DoomHat
2006-10-15, 12:19 AM
Hm? Eh, never mind me. I’m probably just confused about exactly what you’re proposing.

Dario
2006-10-15, 12:26 AM
Hm? Eh, never mind me. I’m probably just confused about exactly what you’re proposing.
Sorry, I just realized I made a typo. Instead of bonus HP, Con would provide Damage Reduction equivalent to 1d(Con mod), so a 16 Con score would give you DR 1d3.

DoomHat
2006-10-15, 12:34 AM
Well that is interesting.
Though it was my understanding that Damage Reduction represented the resiliency of a creatures carapaces. Is this to say that the higher the constitution the more leathery the skin?

Dario
2006-10-15, 12:37 AM
Well that is interesting.
Though it was my understanding that Damage Reduction represented the resiliency of a creatures carapaces. Is this to say that the higher the constitution the more leathery the skin?
You can interpret it in a number of ways. I would say those with higher Constitutions can "grit their teeth and bear it" better than those with lower ones, and that it's reflected each time they take a blow. A sort of "system shock" advantage, if you will.

Latronis
2006-10-15, 04:42 AM
so you are taking away the only part of HP that actually represent how much damage you can take?

TheOOB
2006-10-15, 04:48 AM
The problum with DR is that DR is only really effective if your fighting an enemy who makes lots of small attacks. If you don't get extra hp from con your party members are very weak agienst high damage attacks, especially your casters.

Think of it like this. Without con, a level 20 wizard has at most 80 hp, though in all likelyhood it will be closer to 60. Even with a high DR, say 20, a high damage attack can take them out in one or two hits, because an 80 damage attack still does 60 damage :o

Meanwhile, with con to hp, a 20th level wizard can hit 150-200 hp fairly easy, what after manuals and enhancements. then that 80 damage attack, while still nasty, only deals about half your life in damage, instead of killing you.

Latronis
2006-10-15, 09:33 AM
a more logical though perhaps more difficult way of doing it might be to have a base HP amount modified by constitution with level based bonus to DR and damage

con representing how much of a beating you can take, experience dictating your ability to 'roll with the punches' as it were and also your ability to actually damage someone experienced avoiding dangerous blows.

Thats going to have its own problems, but that's what happens when you try remove the abstract nature of HP

Jack_Simth
2006-10-15, 11:50 AM
Dario:

Yeah, this is the right place.

Okay, if I'm reading that right, this means that the 1st level Fighter with a Con of 12 will have DR 1/- and 10 HP. A 20th level Fighter with a Con of 30 will have DR 10/- and 10+19d10 hp.

A bit of a power-up for damage dealing spells as, by default, RAW, they bypass DR.....

From the SRD, Special Abilities and Conditions:

DAMAGE REDUCTION

Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or to ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.

The numerical part of a creature’s damage reduction is the amount of hit points the creature ignores from normal attacks. Usually, a certain type of weapon can overcome this reduction. This information is separated from the damage reduction number by a slash. Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, by magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment. If a dash follows the slash then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.

Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).

Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury type poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury type disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.

Attacks that deal no damage because of the target’s damage reduction do not disrupt spells.

Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction.

Sometimes damage reduction is instant healing. Sometimes damage reduction represents the creature’s tough hide or body,. In either case, characters can see that conventional attacks don’t work.

If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation. (Emphasis added)

As spells bypass DR, this makes direct damage spells more viable... and Empowered/Maximized spells considerably more of a threat. Nice boost for casters, though. Other than it adding a bit more "glass" to their cannon.

Dario
2006-10-15, 03:45 PM
so you are taking away the only part of HP that actually represent how much damage you can take?

I think HP is enough of an abstraction that shifting what Con represents shouldn't be too much of a problem. I can explain it away well enough (gritting your teeth and bearing it, for example), but I'm more worried about the mechanical implications.

TheOOB and Jack_Smith: Thanks for the input. I think you guys have a point, but as I alluded to in my original post, I've been thinking about using this for a low-magic setting where physical attacks are the norm and most fights would be against humanoids. Also, I wanted to take some of the sting out of low levels and some of the power out of high ones.

And just a reminder, the DR I'm talking about would be variable. 16 Con would give you DR 1d3, not DR 3.

Luircin
2006-10-15, 11:14 PM
I'd say to take a little of A and a little of B. Say, minimize but don't completely cut the Con bonus to HP (Say, to half Con mod, rounded up or down alternately per levels). Then add your DR idea, but make it resistance to energy as well.

Are you planning on making those stack with other sources of DR, like armor or class abilities?

Larrin
2006-10-16, 01:59 PM
And just a reminder, the DR I'm talking about would be variable. 16 Con would give you DR 1d3, not DR 3.

so every time some one deals damage, you roll the die? More die rolling=more headache, expect characters to have problems with it. And unless you have some d5's and d7'd lying around, i hope you're using a computer to do the rolls. :P

also DR is a big bonus at low levels, with a DR 1d4 has a decent chance to negate most damage so the goblins can swing at you 20 times, and your DR cuts keeps you alive, but once you hit middle levels, things can can kill you in 3 hits, you'll wish you had 4*level extra hit points rather then an unreliable 1d4 DR (the example assumes a con of18 )

Fax Celestis
2006-10-16, 02:40 PM
And unless you have some d5's and d7'd lying around, i hope you're using a computer to do the rolls. :P
You makin' fun of my d5 and d7? Punk. //shakes fist

ishi
2006-10-16, 03:09 PM
Haven't really thought about this too much, but wouldn't Con as DR instead of HP make a few powerful attacks much better than a lot of weak ones?

Miles Invictus
2006-10-17, 12:21 AM
DR is only better than HP if you take hits frequently -- say, once for every character level you have. For example, a level 15 player needs to get smacked with a sword 15 times before DR is better than HP. This is because a Con bonus provides extra HP per level -- with a Con bonus of 16, our level 15 player gets an extra 45 health. DR must negate at least 45 points of damage to remain competitive, and if DR is equal to the Con bonus, it has to reduce damage from 15 hits to do that.

In my opinion, the HP bonus is a lot stronger, because I don't expect to survive enough attacks to get the maximum utility out of DR.

Pegasos989
2006-10-17, 03:36 PM
Am I misunderstanding something or is this serious nerf to fighter characters' survivability?

A con mod of +3 is decent at low levels. At 5th level it could grant 15hp or it could grant average DR of 1.5... A fifth level half-orc barbarian comes and hits you for 1d12 +10 (16 str +2 racial +4 rage +1 weapon, so STR mod to damage 9 +1 from weapon) for average of 16,5. So, if you have only 32 hp (average fighter with no con mod to hp), even with DR it almost kills you in two average hits (and 3 is almost certain kill) while if that was to hp, you would have 47 hp and survive on hit more (which counts!).

A con mod of +5 is decent at 11th level. It could grant you 55hp or it could grant you average dr of 2.5. When that said barbarian comes to 1d12 +17 (16str +2 racial +2 levels +4 item +6 rage for str mod of 15 to this purposen and +2 for +2 weapon) and hits you for average damage of 23.5, do you want DR 2.5 or 55hp (it takes 22 hits before that DR protects you as much as 55hp and you wont survive that many - especially without con mod to HP!)

I won't even get started at high levels.

So even if we remove the rule that spells pass DR, you greatly lowers survivability of melee characters with this and make fights longer.

How about mechanic along the lines of CON adding 2*CON MOD as DR but it can't exceed twice your level. (so a 1st level fighter has DR 2 and 20th level - as it is hard to get con mod over 13 - 26 at MAX, if dwarf with maxed con ((but not counting rage or possible spells))))

Captain van der Decken
2006-10-17, 03:40 PM
What about extra dr dice for higher levels?

1:1 ratio might be a bit much though

Dario
2006-10-17, 08:39 PM
ishi, Miles Invictus, and Pegasos989: Yes, it does seem that this would make not only higher levels deadlier, but also attacks that are fewer in number but more powerful. I intended the former, but the latter only recently struck me.

Perhaps there are other variants I could employ to make this suggestion, which I do still like, feasible in a low-magic setting? Or is there another way to replace the "Con mod at every level" standard? I don't mind more grittiness to combat (which is why I must stay away from Captain van der Decken's suggestion :)), but I would hate to throw the entire game out of whack with this one modification.

Larrin: I don't mind rolling the die, but I would hate to use a hybrid system (like Luircin proposed :P), as that would give me a headache. ;D Anyway, even if this idea crashes and burns, it sounded nice at the time, and was my first attempt at any major rules alteration to d20. I'll go ahead and be proud of myself just the same. 8)

The_Cowinator
2006-10-17, 09:28 PM
I don't mind rolling the die, but I would hate to use a hybrid system (like Luircin proposed :P), as that would give me a headache. ;D

What about rolling the die at character creation and then just keeping that roll their entire career. If they go up a die (e.g. d3 to d4) you could just add the difference. Saves alot of dice rolls, which saves time. And time is money.

Captain van der Decken
2006-10-18, 02:39 PM
It is a fairly interesting idea though, i would like to see it happen.

Pegasos989
2006-10-18, 03:35 PM
Anyway, even if this idea crashes and burns, it sounded nice at the time, and was my first attempt at any major rules alteration to d20. I'll go ahead and be proud of myself just the same. 8)

Heh. Major changes in the system are hard to design. And it really is interesting idea but to find a well working way would need not only math but a lot of playtesting at diffrent levels.

Fax Celestis
2006-10-18, 03:46 PM
How about a pool of dice accoding to their CON mod equal to their HD or 1/2 their HD? When struck, roll. Use a d3 for a Con mod of 6 or less, and then move up from there. So a +8 would give you a handful of d4s, a +10 would go with d5s, a +12 would give you d6s.

Pegasos989
2006-10-18, 03:57 PM
How about a pool of dice accoding to their CON mod equal to their HD or 1/2 their HD? When struck, roll. Use a d3 for a Con mod of 6 or less, and then move up from there. So a +8 would give you a handful of d4s, a +10 would go with d5s, a +12 would give you d6s.

Hmm. Let's see... So 10th level character with +6 con mod would use 5d3? Average of 7.5. Hmmmm.... Still a bit low-ish but might work, especially if it applies against damaging spells too.

Really, this would need some test fights. >: )

EDIT: Could someone care to say how much damage they normally do at 10th level or so? I don't want to use DMG's NPCs as those are quite weak but my own characters are often quite minmaxed so I would need something more... average.

Captain van der Decken
2006-10-18, 04:05 PM
I wouldn't want to be the guy with 24 con :P

fangthane
2006-10-27, 04:01 PM
One problem I can see is that it puts the focus far more on magic, especially at higher levels where the focus is already heavily on magic.

Think of this:

A first-level fighter with a +4 con modifier normally has 14 hit points and is going up against CR 1/4 to CR 1 critters who hit for anywhere from about 1d4-1 to 2d4+4. Against the largest of these, he's going down in two hits normally, and against the smallest it'll take closer to 9 or 10 hits.

With your mod, he has 10 hit points and DR of 2.5 average. This means that against the largest foes, he's still dropping in 2 hits (2.5+2.5+4-2.5=6.5 avg hit) and against the smallest he can fight all day and never take damage if he's almost as lucky as his opponent on the d4 rolls. At this level, the fact that two chill touches or magic missiles can put him down puts casters at parity with melee, though they have range as well.

At higher levels (say 20) the fighter has items etc bringing his 'current' con modifier probably closer to the +8 range (possibly higher depending on character direction) giving him DR of 4.5 - and in fact, many other characters would likely prioritise con to an extent so many will have similar levels of resistance. That means that pretty much all physical attacks will do 5 points less than normal, while all magical attacks will be doing their full damage. Against a fighter (or other class) with no con bonus to hp. You want to bet on how many DBF's or Wiltings or Firestorms such a character will withstand? I'm betting on a lot fewer than the one who instead has 160 extra hit points. At this level, if a fighter only has a moderate 120 HP (10 at first, 5.5 at each subsequent level is actually less so I'm being generous) he's going to have difficulty with back-to-back 20d6 reflex saves. And Power Words will be back in style with a vengeance. Booyah.

Edited to make it clear this is a slightly more general comment than the one Peg left above... :) In a low-magic world it might pass, but in a balanced D&D environment it won't fly.

Dario
2006-10-27, 04:59 PM
fangthane,

You're right, this would never fly in a campaign where most magic or even many magic items are anything but rare. And even in a low-magic setting, it'd probably have to be handled carefully, perhaps ruling that critical hits bypass it (so weaker monsters aren't totally crippled), but that would only make stronger monsters even more dangerous (probably much more than I would intend).

Okay, I think I've been convinced this was a bad idea. :D Not a big deal, though, as I've been going the other way recently and am now looking into more rules-light systems. Go figure. :P

Hario
2006-10-28, 12:07 AM
The idea is interresting but it has some issues, mostly with undead and constructs or anything without a constitution score.. are they treated as having a 10 or a 1 con? if the one then that means its zombie crushing time! I really don't like having undescriptive DR for low lvl characters, this would negate some armor effects that give DR and I don't think its a good idea for a lvl one fighter to have an AC of 19 and DR 4/- at lvl one, sure he may not do much damage but he'd shrug off almost all attacks accept crits at that lvl...