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View Full Version : Whirlwind Attack+Hideous Blow+Repelling Blast=?



Hat-Trick
2009-01-15, 11:11 PM
Alright this just came to me. I've heard bad things about how whirlwind attack just gets things angry compared to a concentrated full attack, but looking over the Warlock along with it's invocations, I had this thought...

The Warlock class can put only one Blast Shape and only one Blast Essence on their eldritch blast at a time. Hideous Blow is a blast shape invocation which turns the ranged touch attack into a touch attack that can be channeled through melee attacks to stack the melee and blast damage. Repelling Blast is a blast essence invocation that forces enemies hit with an eldritch blast to make a reflex save or be thrown 1d6*5 feet (1d6 spaces) and be knocked prone. If both are applied to an eldritch blast and used in a whirlwind attack, would it force all targets to make the save?

I know, I know, "Why would a warlock do that?", "Waste of five feats for a limited maneuver." I'm fully aware it's not optimal, takes until level 9 for a straight up human warlock, involves melee he shouldn't be in, and is severely limited, but would it work?

RandomLunatic
2009-01-15, 11:17 PM
No. Hideous Blow gives you a single attack as a standard action. WWA requires the full-attack action.

Hat-Trick
2009-01-15, 11:23 PM
Hm. Well, it was a thought, thanks for the clarity.

Burley
2009-01-16, 09:29 AM
Well, you could do it with Eldritch Glaive... The invocation says that if you would get extra attacks with it if they are available to you. It'd be harder to set up a decent attack, but you'd get 15 attacks instead of 8. That's decent, yeah?

Person_Man
2009-01-16, 10:43 AM
Flaming Homer, the Bowling Ball of Doom!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22)

Basically, you can accomplish your goal with Power Attack + Leap Attack + Improved Bull Rush + Shock Trooper + Knockback.

Knockback is a feat from Races of Stone that requires that you be Large (or bigger) size or have Powerful Build (Goliath or Half Giant, either of which is +1 LA). It gives you a free Bull Rush whenever you hit an enemy with a melee attack that uses Power Attack, and let's you add your Power Attack bonus to the check.

Shock Trooper lets you dump your AC instead of your To-Hit to increase your damage via Power Attack. It also gives you a "Directed Bull Rush." It lets you steer your Bull Rush, and it allows you to Trip enemies when you knock them into each other.

Leap Attack improves your Power Attack modifier.

Also, Whirlwind Attack is a huge waste in most cases. You usually get more attacks just by using a reach weapon and taking feats/spells/items that grant you additional attacks, and Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4551066&postcount=16) as necessary. In addition, Whirlwind Attack has lousy pre-reqs. The only way I know how to get it without having to invest in Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, and Spring Attack is to use a Psychic Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020927a) or a Binder, who can get it for free with one of his vestiges.

Hat-Trick
2009-01-16, 11:49 AM
Thank you for telling me about the bowling ball, but a simple hideous blow and repelling blast would get a similar effect that I'm completely happy with.

On the eldritch glaive, that invocation isn't in Complete Arcane, is it, because I've looked and can't find it there.

MeklorIlavator
2009-01-16, 11:53 AM
No its in Dragon Magic. One of the other two books that supports the warlock(the other being the Complete Mage).

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-16, 11:54 AM
A better idea would be Chain Utterdark Blast. Force every opponent to take two negative levels. Repeat as necessary until opponents are either dead because they got nerfed so hard, or from negative levels

Hat-Trick
2009-01-16, 12:13 PM
I'm not looking for better strategies, I'm looking for a way to make this work, which, if what I've read on the internet is true, eldritch glaive allows me to do this, but with a reach, which excludes adjacent opponents.

Also, I'm confused on something, I also hear that hideous blow provokes an attack of opportunity, which doesn't make sense, because it transfers through a weapon or, if you want, an unarmed attack (which normally would provoke an AoO if you didn't take IUS, is that where they get it?)

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-16, 12:35 PM
I'm not looking for better strategies, I'm looking for a way to make this work, which, if what I've read on the internet is true, eldritch glaive allows me to do this, but with a reach, which excludes adjacent opponents. You are correct in this assessment


Also, I'm confused on something, I also hear that hideous blow provokes an attack of opportunity, which doesn't make sense, because it transfers through a weapon or, if you want, an unarmed attack (which normally would provoke an AoO if you didn't take IUS, is that where they get it?)

You don't provoke an AoO for the attack, you provoke an AoO for using a Spell-Like Ability (Hideous Blow) in a threatened range.

Hat-Trick
2009-01-16, 12:49 PM
I read that using a Blast shape or essence isn't even worth the title "action" and is as inherent as choosing a target, but then there was something else about the AoO.

Here:
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/6956-13-warlock-questions

I believe the third post.

Draz74
2009-01-16, 12:55 PM
What about using the Short Haft feat (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Short_Haft,PH2) with Eldritch Glaive?

Shhalahr Windrider
2009-01-16, 01:53 PM
I read that using a Blast shape or essence isn't even worth the title "action" and is as inherent as choosing a target, but then there was something else about the AoO.
Right. Applying a Blast Shape isn't an action in itself. It's part of using your eldritch blast normally. But when using your eldritch blast normally, you provoke Attacks of Opportunity. Applying a Blast Shape or Eldritch Essence doesn't change that.


What about using the Short Haft feat (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Short_Haft,PH2) with Eldritch Glaive?
Since it effectively creates an actual glaive for a round, I'd allow it.

Though the actual wording of the Shape is confusing enough that one might be able to argue against it RAW. But I think the RAI is such that it would allow it.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-16, 01:55 PM
Well couldn't you wear spiked gauntlets and wield an eldritch glaive? I mean, you'd threaten all those squares then, and could WW all of them.

EDIT: But you wouldn't get the knockback, so nevermind.

Hat-Trick
2009-01-16, 02:44 PM
Is there a way to make Whirlwind attack a standard action? If there is, I'd settle for that.

The Glyphstone
2009-01-16, 02:49 PM
Improved Whirlwind attack makes it an attack action, but it's an Epic feat, so effectively out of consideration without Instabold cheese.

Hat-Trick
2009-01-16, 02:54 PM
So no way to do it pre-epic then? Blast!

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-16, 03:49 PM
Well, you can get Combat Reflexes, then with the Glaive, you provoke AoO every time someone tries to close with you, which causes them to go flying...

It's not perfect, but probably much easier to get away with.

Draz74
2009-01-16, 04:44 PM
Tome of Battle has some maneuvers that are kinda like Whirlwind Attack as a standard action. The one you want is Mithral Tornado, Level 4 Iron Heart Maneuver.

So instead of spending four feats to get Spring Attack, you could spend three feats (or dip a couple of levels) to get Mithral Tornado. You'd only be able to do it 1/encounter, but, on the other hand, the prerequisite feats you'd take would be a lot more fun than Dodge/Mobility/Combat Expertise, and you'd get a +2 attack bonus when using the maneuver as your Whirlwind Attack.

If you're still hoping to combine this with Hideous Blow instead of Eldritch Glaive, that's a no-go; even if you have a whirlwind ability that's a standard action, you can't use that and Hideous Blow at the same time, as they're two independent standard action abilities. The only thing that would let you Hideous Blow more than one creature at once is Sweeping Strike, the 5th-level ability of the War Mind PrC, and it only hits 2 targets at a time.

(The only other way I know of to get a whirlwind ability is Whirling Weapon in the MIC, but I don't think you can enchant your Eldritch Glaive with sundry other weapon enhancements, so I don't think this helps you much. Personally, I'd recommend the Tome of Battle dipping/feats route.)

Person_Man
2009-01-16, 05:12 PM
Is there a way to make Whirlwind attack a standard action? If there is, I'd settle for that.

Psychic Weapon Master. But its a very high level thing.

Hat-Trick
2009-01-16, 06:24 PM
... So short haft would allow me to hit adjacent, right?

Tokiko Mima
2009-01-16, 10:14 PM
You have to keep in mind that Eldritch Blast is a Spell-like Ability, despite the fact that it may at times appear and do damage as a melee attack. You need a Concentration check to cast inside a threatened area and avoid an AoO, even if you're making what appears to be a magical weapon attack. It can be disrupted, is subject to SR and your attack can even be dispelled with a well timed dispel magic.

You can modify your Eldritch Blast with Invocations, but the fact remains that it's more like a spell than a real glaive or other melee weapon.

I think in this case you'd be better off with Eldritch Chain (with CL cheese) or Eldritch Doom (there's a 3/day Eldritch Rod in MIC I think that's great for this) modifying your Repelling Blast and just call it a day.

Hat-Trick
2009-01-16, 10:43 PM
Yeah, I just had an image of a warlock using capoeira to get out of a sticky situation. Nothing says I can't use Eldritch Doom and think the same thing.

Saintjebus
2009-01-17, 03:32 PM
You'd only be able to do it 1/encounter,.)

No, if you take warblade levels(if I'm not mistaken, you would have to, Iron Heart is only available to them) you would be able to get it back with a swift action- which can be done every round. You would be able to use the maneuver every other round at most.

Keld Denar
2009-01-17, 03:49 PM
Um, depending on what kind of action it is to invoke the Eldrich Glaive. Short Haft requires a swift action to "choke up" on it. If it takes any action at all to get the glaive, you can't combine it.

Draz74
2009-01-17, 04:01 PM
No, if you take warblade levels(if I'm not mistaken, you would have to, Iron Heart is only available to them) you would be able to get it back with a swift action- which can be done every round. You would be able to use the maneuver every other round at most.

You are correct, if you dip Warblade levels and if you're not using your swift actions to adjust for Short Haft (which you probably won't be).

I, however, had in mind gaining the maneuver solely through the Martial Study feat. Which means 1/encounter, as you don't have an initiator class to give you a recharge mechanic.