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View Full Version : [3.5] Need some opinions on early bosses...



shadowfox
2009-01-16, 11:33 AM
Edit: I'm sorry for the really, really long rambling clutter of text here (I need to learn how to put in those spoiler box things). If it really is too much (and somebody tells me how to do the spoilers), then I'll address the issue. I really did try my best to cut down information to just what's important, but you're talking to a guy with Asperger's Syndrome who highlights pretty much every word on a page as "important."
Edit 2: Putting additional information in Spoilers. I'll put a short "title" for the spoiler, giving you an idea of what information it holds.

Alright. I'm starting a campaign in... less than a week-and-a-half. My own knit-picking has made more work for me, so I didn't get around to making early bosses until just now. But a few things elude me...

Background information on the original characters:
For starters, these characters are actually slightly modified cameos from a few years back. Called the "Brothers Jack" (slight reference to "Brothers Grimm"), the originals were Jack the Reaper and Jack the Ripper (played by me and a friend). Now, we decided on the names because both of us had the same first name, and he was reading a book on Jack the Ripper at the time. Jack the Reaper dual-wielded scythes (late notice: this was still version 3 for us, at the time, so Monkey Grip was slightly different), and was a Fighter/Devoted Defender (I believe 6/2, respectfully), while Jack the Ripper dual-wielded Greatswords (I think he was Ranger/Devoted Defender (6/2 again, I believe)).

Now, with a couple feats, like Twin-Weapon Fighting (lik Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, but only when you have 2 of the same weapon), from a couple third-party books (Ultimate Feats, I think), we weren't that far behind the curve. But it wasn't the weapons that made them what they were; it was the strategy they would use.

The Devoted Defender is a 3rd edition prestige class from the Sword and Fist book. If within 5 feet of their "charge" (chosen at the beginning of every encounter on their turn (free action)), they can take attacks (and possibly hits) for their charge, parry attacks (once per round, with a bonus to the opposed attack roll*), and attack people who successfully attack their charge (counts as an Attack of Opportunity; depending on level, may have bonus to this attack). Also, when "actively defending their charge," the Devoted Defender (and his charge) gets a Dodge bonus to their AC.

*=
...in Sword & Fist errata, it changes it to a Reflex Save, DC20+ magical properties of the weapon that would increase the attack (so attacking with a +2 Longsword would make the Reflex DC 22); it still grants a bonus to this roll. I'm going to follow the errata on this one, as it fits better with my 3.5 versions.

Although I am confident in the intelligence of everyone here, I'm going to say it anyway (not an insult toy our intelligence! I swear!): this is exactly what the Brothers Jack were built upon; their build was to reinforce each other (or other party members, but mostly each other). Now, at the time, although I knew a lot of rules, I tended to overlook things, such as stacking bonuses, exact meanings, etc. So, quite simply, I have a few questions.

For starters is the nature and application the the AC bonus.


(p. 13) AC Bonus: The defensive bonus to the character's Armor Class, added to the character's normal AC bonus. This bonus applies only when the devoted defender is actively engaged in protecting her client from an attack; otherwise, use the character's normal AC bonus.
(p. 14) Armor Class Bonus: The devoted defender concentrates on defense, both for herself and her charge. She receives this dodge bonus to AC as a result of that focus.
((Emphasis was used on "only" in the book as well, so I put emphasis on it as well))

Now, on p. 13, it implies that you get a bonus to AC (equal to 1/2 Devoted Defender levels, rounded up) when using Harm's Way (if within 5 feet of your charge, after an attack is declared but before the attack roll is made, you can put yourself in your charge's place), but on page 14, it states that both you and your charge get the Dodge bonus to AC, suggesting that the Devoted Defender has to, at the very least, be within 5 feet of his charge, and vice-versa. Quite frankly, this makes a big difference; although I plan for the Brothers Jack to stick together in battle, they need to move; thus, one must move before the other, leaving them weaker than when they are together. (My personal opinion in this matter, since they're bosses, is that they should have their moments of weakness, which makes me prefer the first interpretation, but the second applies similarly, putting emphasis on trying to separate them to deal more damage; plus, one has a high Init mod and the other has a low one, which, in theory, could work out well, giving the PCs time to react and take advantage of a temporary situation.)

The another issue with this is that they're dodge bonuses. I know that bonuses oft he same type normally don't stack, but I'm bringing this prestige class into 3.5. Now, as an enthusiast of swashbucklers, I know that there are, in fact, cases where dodge bonuses stack with each other. (But, at the same time, I believe it says it right in the Swashbuckler's Dodge description.) So, to be blunt, if we go by the second interpretation (getting it by standing next to each other), would their Dodge bonuses stack?

Changes in the Characters (weapons, levels, fighting style):
Anyway, I did change the builds of the two characters a bit. Fluff-wise, Jack the Ripper isn't a bumbling idiot like the character he was based off of. (is the updated Ripper lacking Wis and Cha? Yes. Intelligence? Average human's.) I plan on the PCs being level 7-9 when they encounter them (I'm leveling them up a lot early in the campaign to tackle the main plot), so the Brothers Jack are level 12 (hence, why I'm using the Reflex save instead of making an opposed attack roll). Jack the Reaper is Fighter 8/Devoted Defender 4, and dual-wields kusari-gamas instead of scythes (he's Dexterity-based, and I needed the reach capabilities, as he's also going to be played as an intelligent fighter). He has less HP than Jack the Ripper, and, because of it, he'll focus more on deflecting attacks made at his brother, as well as using the reach capabilities and Combat Reflexes to make Attacks of Opportunity. Jack the Ripper is now Barbarian 8/Devoted Defender 4, dual-wields Bastard Swords (via Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting), and has more HP, so he'll focus on using Harm's Way to protect Jack the Reaper, essentially being the tank (hence why I went into Barbarian).

Now, just to say, it's 3 PCs and a bound fiend (unique devil I'm making as though it were a party member, leveling up along with them), and this is an encounter that the PCs aren't supposed to win. In fact, if everything goes correctly, at least one PC's character will die (in fact, I have the PC in mind, because he was the one that suggested using them, and he even suggested an instant death attack that they could employ). This, oddly enough, is plot-essential (I need to give them a reason to go into Cania, the eighth layer of Hell, in order to later introduce the "Asmodeous is trying to take over the universe" plot that will be the largest story arch in the entire campaign). This is also why I have my sights on one specific PC: he's LE, is a male drow that has opposed his race's culture (killed his mistress, fled; I believe he doesn't worship the drow goddess, either), and, being in a city where 9/10 souls go to Mephistopheles (hence, why they rest of the party will go to Cania, with the help of a certain bound fiend's connections), it all just works together.

However, back to my original point on this boss encounter: this isn't a fight they're supposed to win (if they kill the Brothers Jack, then it means I have to scratch them from popping up as occasionally recurring villains. They're supposed to fight, get in too deep (possibly losing a party member to emphasize it), and flee. A later fight where they get caught between demons & devils was originally planned, but that's when I was expecting 4 PCs, and I don't want to leave 1 PC alive on his or her own (well, either alone (later meeting the previously bound fiend), or alone with a still-bound fiend, depending on the case), so I'm saving that as backup.

I don't mean to railroad them, nor try...
Although they know that the campaign will have a good portion dealing with the layers of hell, they are all under the assumption of something more like "killing all the devils," rather than "working with the devils to pay off the debt of sparing their friend's soul (allowing him to be resurrected), and later either stopping Asmodeous from allying with the demons so that the devils can take over the all the planes of existance, or working for Mephistopheles, who only presents interest in taking over Baator." (I have a tendency to challenge the alignment stereotypes of D&D (because my PCs view them as the PHB tells them: in black and white), and, through this, I tend to create situations not found in the campaigns they run.) Other endings are not out of the question, but, as of right now, those are how I envision the campaign ending.

Also, a question on making attacks with two weapons, but not using the extra attacks:
Each weapon of each boss either has the Unholy or Anarchic enchantment on it (one or the other, not both). They will fight with some intelligence, as if either is more effective against certain foes, they'll probably notice that the attacks seem to hurt them more. So, if I make 3 attacks, two with my primary and one with my off-hand, without going into the extra attacks given by two-weapon fighting, do two-weapon fighting penalties still apply since the character is still wielding two weapons? What about for Attacks of Opportunity?

Otherwise, feel free to comment and give your opinions. Constructive criticism is appreciated, but otherwise, please be civil. Thank you.