Sword and Board + ToB

[Thrawn183]

So I have always wished that sword and board kept up in potency with Two-handed weapons (curse you animated shields!)

What is the general experience here with the standard action strikes from Tome of Battle in conjunction with shields? The strikes that replace your damage with a concentration check or simply do extra damage seem like they would go a long way towards making up the gap left by a reduced Power Attack ratio.

You could probably even throw in some shield spikes and Two-weapon fighting with Tiger Claw maneuvers if need be.

Have many of you played characters like these? If so please share your experiences.

[Tehnar]

One of the players in my campaign played a crusader to lvl 10 before it ended.
Heavy shield, dwarven waraxe. Shield ward made his touch AC also very good.
Normal AC was stellar allready.

There was this one lvl 4 strike that did something like +8d8.

It was a very effective character and the combination of delayed damage, strikes that allowed healing, and high AC give him high durability, and his damage output was very good as well

[Keld Denar]

Yea, Crusaders do it best, Devoted Spirit even has some shield related maneuvers. Warblades could do it well also.

There is, however, the matter that unless Animated Shields are banned, nothing stops a high level Crusader from "wielding" the shield remotely, getting full benefits from it, and still PAing with a 2hander...

One of the better DMs I've ever played with bans Animated Shields for this reason. You want a shield, you gots to pay for it.

[Draz74]

Personally I think Animated Shield might be balanced if it were priced as +5, rather than +2. And maybe it should also explicitly be limited to not making shield bashes, shield-specific Maneuvers, etc.

At least most DMs will rule that you can't shield bash with an animated shield. That makes the Tiger Claw Shield Spike TWFer at least able to do *some* stuff that a 2HF warrior can't match.

Short answer: Yes, ToB makes sword-n-board pretty viable!

[Samakain]

seen a halfling warblade doing a shortsword and smallshield combo, predominately using iron hand and tiger claw.

couldn't keep the jumpy little bastard down, he tore things up to i might add, while definitely not our main tank he was certainly one of the most dangerous damage wise.

[Simanos]

Personally I think Animated Shield might be balanced if it were priced as +5, rather than +2. And maybe it should also explicitly be limited to not making shield bashes, shield-specific Maneuvers, etc.

At least most DMs will rule that you can't shield bash with an animated shield. That makes the Tiger Claw Shield Spike TWFer at least able to do *some* stuff that a 2HF warrior can't match.

Short answer: Yes, ToB makes sword-n-board pretty viable!
Since the description says it protects the user, I would naturally rule out bashing with it. It's an issue enough that if it was allowed to bash it would be specifically mentioned IMO.


One of the better DMs I've ever played with bans Animated Shields for this reason. You want a shield, you gots to pay for it.
Really? :smalltongue:

[LibraryOgre]

One suggestion I have made is to increase the defensive bonus of a shield when fighting defensively (since you've got a lot better defensive options) and to improve their ratio with Combat Expertise.

[elliott20]

the way I would have handled is to just say that the shield provides only the AC bonus, but because you're not actually wielding it yourself, you can't apply any feats to it. this way, people can still benefit from having the animated shield, but it's benefit is pretty much capped at protection. If you want to get more out of it, you're gonna have to just reach out and grab the shield yourself.

[Shpadoinkle]

seen a halfling warblade doing a shortsword and smallshield combo, predominately using iron hand and tiger claw.
I take it you mean Iron Heart, as there's no disclipline called Iron Hand, and warblades don't get access to Shadow Hand.

[elliott20]

Bah, you and your semantics! by Iron Hand he clearly is referring to the Shaolin kungfu technique where you shatter stuff with your bare hands! no? oh okay then... never mind... carry on.

[Simanos]

One suggestion I have made is to increase the defensive bonus of a shield when fighting defensively (since you've got a lot better defensive options) and to improve their ratio with Combat Expertise.
That's a pretty smart suggestion.
Can you provide a more accurate model for it? Increase by how much exactly? Improve ration by how much?

[Zergrusheddie]

That's a pretty smart suggestion.
Can you provide a more accurate model for it? Increase by how much exactly? Improve ration by how much?

I would say:
+1 for Shields, +2 for Tower Shield when Defensive
When using a Shield, 2:1 Ratio on Expertise. Hell, add an ratio increase into the Dwarven Defender PrC (like FB have with PA).

Our current DM ruled that Shields will auto-add their Bonus into Touch AC because in any fantasy story or book, doesn't the Hero carry a shield to protect himself against spells? Beowulf and the Dragon's Breath comes into mind. It's basically just free Shield Ward.

[Simanos]

Hmm, I could go with that. Perhaps make it:
+1 for Light Shields (and Buckler), +2 for Heavy Shields, +3 for Tower Shield when Attacking Defensively (what about total defense though?).
The ratio to Expertise may be too much at 2:1. Perhaps 1.5:1?
(PA gives damage which is usually not as good as +AB or +AC)
Oh wait, since Attacking Defensively is not allowed with Expertise then we really shouldn't make the ratio better, just add the same shield bonuses (perhaps doubled? or perhaps have a 1.5 ratio too) or the math is screwy for low values.

About Shields vs spell, I could agree, but how much do you add? The base only or enhancements too? Only for touch spells (vs AC) or maybe to (reflex?) saves too?

[Eldariel]

Add both to both (although the Reflex-boost should be a bit more modest; probably only the base Shield Bonus without Enhancement or half total Shield-bonus or something; base Shield makes more sense though). Further, Tower Shields should provide "Evasion"-benefits; you can easily cover yourself in the face of any given Fireball or whatever. It should also be available for other shields as an enhancement or something.

The whole "cover yourself from Dragon's breath with a shield" was even in the Zelda cartoons. So yeah, some such ability would be sweet.

[Swooper]

I approve of this thread, it has some good suggestions. Might have to incorporate some of them into my houserules before the next campaign :smallsmile:

[lilhowie624]

im agreeing with the census here. in my lates campaine i added 1/2 the shields ac to reflex saves. also made the expertise a ratio of

1:1 bucklers / light shields
1.5:1 heavy shields rounding up
2:1 tower / war shields

when fighting defensivly i allowed the full bonus to reflex saves.

this made my 2h warrior and SnB pally even when duking it out