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The Giant
2009-01-17, 10:23 AM
New comic is up.

AlterForm
2009-01-17, 10:24 AM
This ought to be good. Wonder if we'll get to see the fruits of V's menial labor? :smallwink:

SwordOfUriel
2009-01-17, 10:26 AM
God, those books are *everywhere*! What, is there a Barnes & Noble on that desert island?

Lokasenna
2009-01-17, 10:27 AM
And a switch back to V. Nice.

It's interesting to see that for V, trancing is the same as having a bad dream. Apparently V hasn't hooked up with Qaar yet, if this follows chronological after 622.

shaddy_24
2009-01-17, 10:27 AM
Wow, poor V. That memory must be painful.

Lykainon
2009-01-17, 10:28 AM
I must say, I'm a bit suprised that V would read anything labled as "for dummies". I wouldn't think he/she would read anything less then "Finding Plot-Holes for geniuses" or something. :smallamused:

Nice comic, though.

Kroy
2009-01-17, 10:28 AM
Nice new comic. It came out within seconds of me getting on! Hopefully this will answer some of the many questions on the forum about what happened to V.

Migue
2009-01-17, 10:28 AM
Update while i was online :smallbiggrin: so i guess we are back with V again

The Berkeleian
2009-01-17, 10:28 AM
Oh, YES. (Hurray for breaking the fourth wall!!)

T-O-E
2009-01-17, 10:29 AM
Ah, so that explains it.

Darth Mario
2009-01-17, 10:30 AM
And thus V's mental breakdown is explained in one fell swoop.

Arctic
2009-01-17, 10:30 AM
I must say, I'm a bit suprised that V would read anything labled as "for dummies". I wouldn't think he/she would read anything less then "Finding Plot-Holes for geniuses" or something. :smallamused:



"I must not engage in any demanding mental tasks." :smallsmile:

Great comic, 'loved it.

Euron
2009-01-17, 10:31 AM
I don't recall if it was mentioned, but can Qarr cast illusions? If so, he might not even care about V, only use his image to get aboard the boats instead.

hamishspence
2009-01-17, 10:31 AM
Very nice. And it looks like V is still Well Intentioned.

kreszantas
2009-01-17, 10:32 AM
finally a decent answer... until it gets yanked out from under us like a rug... Explains the escape verywell

TerrickTerran
2009-01-17, 10:36 AM
Interesting little comic and nice to see V again. Now we need to see where the Giant is heading with hir.

Thorin
2009-01-17, 10:36 AM
Hunting nightmares... poor V

xyzzy
2009-01-17, 10:36 AM
I can't wait for more on Vaarsuvius! :smallbiggrin:

kirbsys
2009-01-17, 10:39 AM
Poor V, that would really suck watching people die when you should have the power to save them, but don't.

Yiuel
2009-01-17, 10:40 AM
I never thought V would be that compassionate for other people.

I would hate having the dream V is having constantly.

(And it completely explains V's unexplainable attitude. Good people, when haunted by painful thoughts like these, can go insane. :vaarsuvius: is desperate.)

bue52
2009-01-17, 10:40 AM
Ok, I will have to say...... V is still gonna be evil if he doesn't learn to overcome that memory. Though now.... like redcloack there is a reason to his/her "evil intentions".... guilt.

Nevitan
2009-01-17, 10:41 AM
Poor V, although this doesn't really get Hir any compassion from me.
Oh, and thanks for the clarification on the spell situation Giant.

DanShive
2009-01-17, 10:42 AM
Poor V... He did so much during that battle

Assassin89
2009-01-17, 10:42 AM
Apparently V's breakdown was due more to failing to protect everyone who depended on him, a category in which Haley would be included. There is a possibility of V making a sacrifice trying to bring those soldiers back.

Kastanok
2009-01-17, 10:45 AM
Well that explains it :smalleek: Also now it's entirely cleared up how V is regaining spells with trancing - the small print is everything.

Dacia Brabant
2009-01-17, 10:47 AM
Hmm, well that explains that, though I'm surprised V just stood there speechless instead of saying something like "I'm out of spells!"

Enter Qarr, stage left, let the temptation to greater power begin.

Lira
2009-01-17, 10:48 AM
Oh, poor V. I was wondering if (s)he was having nightmares. :smallfrown:

On the plus side, I just won a bet with my friend thanks to this new strip.

Mauve Shirt
2009-01-17, 10:51 AM
Back to V! Hooray!
At least he got some "sleep".

ericgrau
2009-01-17, 10:52 AM
Ok, I will have to say...... V is still gonna be evil if he doesn't learn to overcome that memory. Though now.... like redcloack there is a reason to his/her "evil intentions".... guilt.

Dang, I didn't make it in before the alignment debates. Anywayz, I don't buy it. Even if V is/will-be evil (and I'm not saying if she is), it hand-waves over the real plot.

This comic's deep. I like.

Wolfprint
2009-01-17, 10:53 AM
I think "engage" was misspelt as "enganged".

PanNarrans
2009-01-17, 10:53 AM
Oh, THAT'S why. I knew V wouldn't arbitrarily lose hir mind.

Llama231
2009-01-17, 10:58 AM
Wow, second page of a thread with V, and no one has mentioned its gender.

Trixie
2009-01-17, 11:01 AM
Do I sense a jab on all the complainers? :smallamused:

Edit: Also, I don't believe that most people above missed the point so completely. V didn't give a damn about these soldiers - the only thing that bothered her was that last comment, how her magic was so useless.

Good, V is still evil, there is hope for Quarr :smallamused:

afroakuma
2009-01-17, 11:07 AM
So V does have a heart. -ish...

BRC
2009-01-17, 11:07 AM
I see, so the last few months have simply been repeated times that V's arcane power has failed him.

LukeSimm
2009-01-17, 11:14 AM
He he he.

Just friday me and my friend were looking around the University of Essex libary, seeing if there were any "for dummies" books there.

I must say, switching back to V could be interesting. Can't wait to see where this will go. :)

--- Luke

raphfrk
2009-01-17, 11:17 AM
Hmm, well that explains that, though I'm surprised V just stood there speechless instead of saying something like "I'm out of spells!"


It could have caused him to be detected. Does invisibility drop if someone 'sees' you?

Nevrmore
2009-01-17, 11:22 AM
A refreshing break from Celia's nonsense. I just hope that it doesn't end with V apologizing for killing Kubota, an action which I heartily support (And not because he killed Therkla - I heartedly supported that, too.)

Shadowcaller
2009-01-17, 11:24 AM
Do I sense a jab on all the complainers? :smallamused:

Edit: Also, I don't believe that most people above missed the point so completely. V didn't give a damn about these soldiers - the only thing that bothered her was that last comment, how her magic was so useless.

Good, V is still evil, there is hope for Quarr :smallamused:

Really? I think you ignored something here... well we believe what we want to believe I guess.

Grunjon
2009-01-17, 11:27 AM
God, those books are *everywhere*! What, is there a Barnes & Noble on that desert island?

Man, I used to be a manager for Software Etc. (now GameStop). I remember when the first of those come out: DOS For Dummies, PCs For Dummies and Windows For Dummies (not all at the same time). Later, as the Dummies books got to be popular, they decided to branch out to non-computer subjects. I remember being at the annual Manager's Conference, where vendors would show off their latest products leading up to Christmas. They introduced to us the first three non-computer titles in the line, and we could pick one of them to get our own free copy of it. The choices were Golf For Dummies (I don't play the game), Wine For Dummies (I didn't drink wine at the time, and these days I only drink it super-rarely...I've never been a big drinker), and Sex For Dummies written by Dr. Ruth. Guess which one I picked? I still have it somewhere around here, I'm sure! :)

The Minx
2009-01-17, 11:29 AM
Really? I think you ignored something here... well we believe what we want to believe I guess.

Indeed. I got that he was all torn up about not being able to save those soldiers as they were cut down in front of his helpless, invisible eyes.

Nasty memory too. I wouldn't want to trance/sleep either if all I got was that memory. :smalleek:

Trixie
2009-01-17, 11:29 AM
Really? I think you ignored something here... well we believe what we want to believe I guess.

Um, the breaking point, that forced her to wake screaming was not the sight of people being killed, nor comparing her to an animal, but that last comment about her being useless.

So no, I haven't missed anything. :smallamused:

Behold_the_Void
2009-01-17, 11:30 AM
It could have caused him to be detected. Does invisibility drop if someone 'sees' you?

It drops if you make any kind of offensive move against someone, unless you're using the greater variety which I believe has a significantly shorter duration and V was most likely not using.

He had no spells with which to do it though, as he had exhausted his resources that day.

Niley
2009-01-17, 11:31 AM
YES! A cutaway to V, at last! And it explains a huge mystery. Now we know that V's obsession wasn't caused by Haley...
Oh, and there is one more thing in this strip. Another proof that Sorcerers pwn Wizards*.

*because Sorcerers don't need to prepare spells; if V had any spells left during that event in Azure City, he/she would have saved those soldiers

Defiant
2009-01-17, 11:31 AM
I didn't get why she was reading "Plot Holes for Dummies", other than needing to not engage in any strenuous mental tasks. Where's the plot hole?

hamishspence
2009-01-17, 11:33 AM
I'm inclined to think its a bit of both- personal pride, and the sight of needy people dying. V is "not without compassion for their plight" but V's own pride is important to V as well.

SPoD
2009-01-17, 11:33 AM
I didn't get why she was reading "Plot Holes for Dummies", other than needing to not engage in any strenuous mental tasks. Where's the plot hole?

Nowhere, but s/he is attempting to locate one, in order to overcome the Cloister.

Serpentine
2009-01-17, 11:33 AM
V is so messed up because they're guilt-wracked... Makes sense to me.
Trixie, I think that was more that their "useless magic" was the reason they were so useless, and feeling so helpless. That... accusation was the conclusion of that terrible memory, not the slaying, and while it was the last nail in the coffin so to speak, I don't think it was the crux of the dream. 'Course, I'm not writing the thing *shrug*

Anyway, I found this one particularly amusing. I got Dungeon Master for Dummies for Christmas :biggrin:

Shadowcaller
2009-01-17, 11:34 AM
Um, the breaking point, that forced her to wake screaming was not the sight of people being killed, nor comparing her to an animal, but that last comment about her being useless.

So no, I haven't missed anything. :smallamused:

*sigh* As I said, we believe what we want to believe and we seems to have different impressions of what happened in the strip.

hamishspence
2009-01-17, 11:36 AM
I lean toward V not being evil (yet) but part-way down the Slippery slope- potentially easy prey for Qaar. Suspense expected- Has V done a Deal With A Devil, or not?

TheSummoner
2009-01-17, 11:40 AM
Hmm, well that explains that, though I'm surprised V just stood there speechless instead of saying something like "I'm out of spells!"

Enter Qarr, stage left, let the temptation to greater power begin.

I would guess V didn't say it because even though V knew there was absolutly nothing he could do, he couldn't bring himself to try to justify not being able to save them. In his mind, he should've been able to save them.

The nightmare is brought by a combination of guilt and shame. Not only did V fail to save countless innocent lives, but he believes he SHOULD'VE been able to save them. Hell, because of his ego, it might not even be a stretch to say he thinks he should've been able to win the entire battle singlehandedly. Obviously, those of us who aren't haunted by those we couldn't save realize just how unreasonable that is, but V's mind isn't right at the moment...

Kobold-Bard
2009-01-17, 11:41 AM
Hmm, well that explains that, though I'm surprised V just stood there speechless instead of saying something like "I'm out of spells!"

Enter Qarr, stage left, let the temptation to greater power begin.

V's FOUR WORDS. Man, I am slow. So it seems that they'll be a literal deal with the Devil, just in this case it will be a relatively small one.

I'm voting for "Give Me The Power".

Nice comic. I missed V.

Spoomeister
2009-01-17, 11:49 AM
Touche, Mr. Burlew. Point taken, and very well done.

The Minx
2009-01-17, 11:50 AM
Um, the breaking point, that forced her to wake screaming was not the sight of people being killed, nor comparing her to an animal, but that last comment about her being useless.

So no, I haven't missed anything. :smallamused:

That he woke up at that point does not mean that he is only interested in the power of his magic (except for its failure to adequately defend those soldiers). It is an assumption you are making. :smallsmile:

MickJay
2009-01-17, 11:51 AM
Um, the breaking point, that forced her to wake screaming was not the sight of people being killed, nor comparing her to an animal, but that last comment about her being useless.

It is a very good point, and for now at least I'm inclined to interpret things the same way. Of course V is still feeling terrible: for not being powerful enough (full stop), as opposed to not being powerful enough (to save people). He likes his power and the memory just reminds him how much it's limited.

If he was just feeling guilty about the people he couldn't have helped, then his previous behaviour on the ship looks even more irrational, since there he consciously wanted to avoid helping the Azurites and his companions just to further his study a little more (and it's not like he'd have no time to for study while aiding them from time to time). He left the ship to avoid any interruption in the research (=gaining more power), and practically any event which would interrupt his study would be an opportunity to help someone.

Maybe I'm seeing what I want to see as well, but this interpretation explains V's behaviour over the past months much better for me than the alternative ("I feel guilty for not being able to help some people so I'm running away from other people to whom I can still be helpful"). :smalltongue:

Scarlet Knight
2009-01-17, 11:52 AM
Indeed. I got that he was all torn up about not being able to save those soldiers as they were cut down in front of his helpless, invisible eyes.

Nasty memory too. I wouldn't want to trance/sleep either if all I got was that memory. :smalleek:

In addition is the guilt that :vaarsuvius: didn't even try to help. :vaarsuvius: could have picked up a bow and fought with them. :vaarsuvius: could have used hir last invisibility spell differently. :vaarsuvius: stood by hiding while they were killed. I wonder if that is really what's eating hir.

Obrysii
2009-01-17, 11:54 AM
A very satisfying issue? chapter? page? I don't know what you call #623, but I enjoyed it. I don't have much else to contribute except to say bravo!

The Minx
2009-01-17, 11:59 AM
In addition is the guilt that :vaarsuvius: didn't even try to help. :vaarsuvius: could have picked up a bow and fought with them. :vaarsuvius: could have used hir last invisibility spell differently. :vaarsuvius: stood by hiding while they were killed. I wonder if that is really what's eating hir.

Even Durkon said that the only thing V could have done at that stage was to flee. It is not possible to use the invisibility spell any other way than to make yourself invisible, and attacking with invisibility up causes the spell to end.

Shadowcaller
2009-01-17, 11:59 AM
In addition is the guilt that :vaarsuvius: didn't even try to help. :vaarsuvius: could have picked up a bow and fought with them. :vaarsuvius: could have used hir last invisibility spell differently. :vaarsuvius: stood by hiding while they were killed. I wonder if that is really what's eating hir.

Yes, (s)he could have saved them with a bow, that (s)he didn't even have, and even if (s)he had a bow that would not be able to save them against thousands of hob-goblins.

And if you are arguing that "the invisibility spell could have been used differently" then you clearly have not read the description of the invisibility spell (its not greater invisibility).

To me it sounds like you want to believe these things:smallsigh:.

Calavera
2009-01-17, 12:09 PM
YES! A cutaway to V, at last! And it explains a huge mystery. Now we know that V's obsession wasn't caused by Haley...
Oh, and there is one more thing in this strip. Another proof that Sorcerers pwn Wizards*.

*because Sorcerers don't need to prepare spells; if V had any spells left during that event in Azure City, he/she would have saved those soldiers

V had been casting spells constantly through the battle, and at least as far as we saw they were useful. Invisibility was her last spell, which means she'd exhausted a wizard's full supply. If she had been a sorceror that would mean she would have only been able to cast a fraction of the spells (meaning many less hobgoblin deaths, probably less Azurite survivors, less effective resistance etc. This is more an example of why a a well prepared Wizard is much better than a sorceror.

Eraniverse
2009-01-17, 12:15 PM
It is a very good point, and for now at least I'm inclined to interpret things the same way. Of course V is still feeling terrible: for not being powerful enough (full stop), as opposed to not being powerful enough (to save people). He likes his power and the memory just reminds him how much it's limited.

If he was just feeling guilty about the people he couldn't have helped, then his previous behaviour on the ship looks even more irrational, since there he consciously wanted to avoid helping the Azurites and his companions just to further his study a little more (and it's not like he'd have no time to for study while aiding them from time to time). He left the ship to avoid any interruption in the research (=gaining more power), and practically any event which would interrupt his study would be an opportunity to help someone.

Maybe I'm seeing what I want to see as well, but this interpretation explains V's behaviour over the past months much better for me than the alternative ("I feel guilty for not being able to help some people so I'm running away from other people to whom I can still be helpful"). :smalltongue:

Actually running away from the other Azurites in need is a fairly normal guilt reaction. Keep in mind V doesn't even acknowledge that the memories are painful, just... inefficient. Were V to give extra help to them as a means of reparation, V would first need to acknowledge the transgression. So seeing Azurites in need causes a pain which can't be recognized without overcoming the guilt. Which apparently V can't do yet and so avoided them with the excuse of "efficient" research.

Both readings make sense to me.

Trixie
2009-01-17, 12:16 PM
V had been casting spells constantly through the battle, and at least as far as we saw they were useful. Invisibility was her last spell, which means she'd exhausted a wizard's full supply. If she had been a sorceror that would mean she would have only been able to cast a fraction of the spells (meaning many less hobgoblin deaths, probably less Azurite survivors, less effective resistance etc. This is more an example of why a a well prepared Wizard is much better than a sorceror.

Um, Sorcerers have more spells, you know. They only specialized spells V cast were from scrolls - all other were of blasty kind, which all sorcerers have, anyway.

If V was a Warmage, she would have owned that army by herself :smallamused:

Angband
2009-01-17, 12:18 PM
If he was just feeling guilty about the people he couldn't have helped, then his previous behaviour on the ship looks even more irrational, since there he consciously wanted to avoid helping the Azurites and his companions just to further his study a little more (and it's not like he'd have no time to for study while aiding them from time to time). He left the ship to avoid any interruption in the research (=gaining more power), and practically any event which would interrupt his study would be an opportunity to help someone.

V risked his/her life to help kill the 20 meter tall devil. I would hardly call that "avoiding helping".

Here's the deal as I see it. V feels guilty because his/her magic finally failed at Azure City and s/he had to flee. So s/he has latched on to having his/her magic accomplish what would seem to be a very simple task -- finding Haley et al. If V can accomplish this task, it will help make up for his/her failure at AzC.

But V is being thwarted by an entity that is more powerful than magic V is capable of -- Xykon's Cloister spell -- and V is completely unaware of why s/he is failing. So the lack of success in finding Haley just amplifies the shame and guilt of fleeing azure city, and the entire episode feeds back on itself. And this frustration gets transferred to the people V is trying to save.

But don't take my word for it -- this is a known psychological phenomenon:


It is much easier to focus all of one's attention on another's 'problems' than to face the truth of our relationship with ourselves. Focusing on others offers a very powerful distraction from our own feelings.

...

The other likely outcome of this relationship is that the caretaker will eventually become resentful of the one who they're out to save. For, in truth, we only have the power to heal ourselves, so the caretaker will give a tremendous amount of energy to this other person to discover that nothing changes. For unconsciously, the caretaker sees himself in those that he would save and attempts to soothe and alleviate his own pain by focusing on theirs. This, of course, doesn't work and the caretaker is left with the feeling that he loves and cares for everybody and nobody cares for him. Ultimately, this is only a projection of the caretaker's lack of self-love.

-- http://www.whiteravencenter.org/healingthecaretaker.htm

So yes, V was trying to the point of self-sacrifice to help people. It's his/her inability to do so that's driving him/her mad.

SteveMB
2009-01-17, 12:19 PM
I never thought V would be that compassionate for other people.

Compassion, or shame/anger at being helpless? The latter strikes right at the core of V's pride (my read is that V shares Eugene Greenhilt's belief that magic trumps everything else, but doesn't bother to say so in such direct language).


Hmm, well that explains that, though I'm surprised V just stood there speechless instead of saying something like "I'm out of spells!"

Because that would be an admission of failure that V just can't bear to make.

Morty
2009-01-17, 12:24 PM
Compassion, or shame/anger at being helpless? The latter strikes right at the core of V's pride (my read is that V shares Eugene Greenhilt's belief that magic trumps everything else, but doesn't bother to say so in such direct language).

Agreed. I wouldn't make statements like "V is compassionate, after all" before seeing more proof for it. As it is, V being too proud to admid failure is equally likely to being tormented by the death of the Azurites.

David Argall
2009-01-17, 12:32 PM
I don't recall if it was mentioned, but can Qarr cast illusions? If so, he might not even care about V, only use his image to get aboard the boats instead.
Qarr wanted to get on the ship to meet with V. Since V has left the ship Qarr has no interest in getting onto the ship.
This is why he talks about opportunity when V comes flying by.



the breaking point, that forced her to wake screaming was not the sight of people being killed, nor comparing her to an animal, but that last comment about her being useless.

One can only be useless in regard to a goal. So V had to have a goal of saving the soldiers in order to feel useless in any attempt to save the soldiers. The remark stung because V wanted to save those soldiers and so we move V back a ways from evil.

Now we do not need to move her very far. Saving the soldiers is an aspect of saving the city, and one can find neutral, or even evil, motives for that. And a feeling of shame at failing to meet a goal is alignment free. But we still find it much easier to assume good motives here, and those of us wanting to see V as good aligned have to be just thrilled with this strip.

Now the future does not look as good. We may well be drawing near to V's 4 words said to the right creature [Qarr] at the right time [soon], and for the wrong reasons [becoming evil to do good is a classic example of that].

TheSummoner
2009-01-17, 12:35 PM
The saddest part is V may have done the most for in the battle and still is destroying himself over not being able to do more...

Elan and Haley did about as much as can be expected... they killed a fair number of the enemy but didn't do much to stand out. Roy tried to be the big hero, we all know how that ended. Durkon saved Hinjo, but otherwise didn't really shine. Belkar cut through a great number of the enemy with a little help from "skullsy" but his potential was limited by the MoJ. V took most of the titanium elementals without any help, and used his magic to allow 13 soldiers to kill countless enemies and defend a breach caused by the elementals, while at the same time blasting even more of the enemies with his magic... Pretty damn impressive...

Geno9999
2009-01-17, 12:37 PM
Yeah, It's totally the fact that V felt helpless to stop the Azure Soldiers from dieing. This kinda does two things;
1; We now know why s/he's not going into a trance
2; It helps her/him recover from the Kick the Dog (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KickTheDog) Moment. Sorta makes you feel for Him... her... OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, WHAT'S THE *BOOP*ING ELF'S *BOOP*ING GENDER?!?!?!?!?!?!?

hamishspence
2009-01-17, 12:40 PM
remember Compassion and Good aren't synonymous- you can have a Neutral or even Evil person with the virtue of compassion that they rarely show.

But it does show the potential for redemption (though I doubt V has slid all that far- probably still in Neutral, though not as close to Good as he was) I don't know this for sure, but thats my guess based on V's recent actions

That said, its not how you feel, but what you do, that really matters.

Ellen
2009-01-17, 12:44 PM
Oh, man, just when I'd written V off.

V's got classic Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, nightmares reliving the traumatic event, trying not to think about the event during waking hours, closing down emotionally except for sudden bursts of anger.

Not to mention the whole refusing to admit there's a problem thing.

It also fits with V's other problems. V's stuck on the people s/he couldn't save. Haley has come to sort of embody all of that, since she's the one left behind with a name and a face (and, unlike Belkar, someone V wholeheartedly liked).

I wouldn't be surprised if V doesn't have this same nightmare with all the soldiers looking like Haley.

So, saving Haley is somehow undoing that earlier failure.

And that's why it seems like V couldn't care less about the the survivors on the ships. V's literally stuck in the past. During the battle, those were the people who were (relatively) safe. Worse, those were the people who got out when the others didn't.

Methinks V is projecting V's survivor's guilt onto all the other survivors. They all, by definition, left when other people didn't.

And it's why V got so mad at Elan over Therkla. V is emotionally trapped back in that moment at Azure City. For V, even the suggestion of moving on is like stabbing Haley in the back. For V, it feels the same as if Elan had started having an interest in Therkla as soon as the boat left the dock.

No, for V, it feels the same as if Elan had started a cheerful music number and been dancing with Therkla right through that battle, using clever dance steps to whirl over the bodies so as not to interrupt his happy tune.

silvadel
2009-01-17, 12:47 PM
Actually it is worse than what you are all saying. Those fleeing soldiers STOPPED. They stopped running in the hopes that V would save them. V was completely impotent to do anything and they might have lived had they just kept running.

Then the coup de grace to V's sanity was the statement at the end by the dying soldier.

Adeptus
2009-01-17, 01:00 PM
Poor V :frown:

Tundar
2009-01-17, 01:05 PM
So V has a conscience after all. Good to know.

Also, great title for a book. I want one :smallbiggrin:

Tycho2
2009-01-17, 01:05 PM
So this is whats turned V schizo. Nice to find out. The 'hero' complex thing is still rather annoying and played out however.

MickJay
2009-01-17, 01:09 PM
V risked his/her life to help kill the 20 meter tall devil. I would hardly call that "avoiding helping".

The whole encounter was a bother for him, V acted because he felt only his power could resolve the situation, which was a waste of time for him anyway. That, and he wanted the XP out of it. So yes, he did help others, but nothing indicated that his motivation was pure or good (neutral all the way as far as I'm concerned).

The guilt is a good motivation for running away, but I would have expected V to run away much earlier if it was really the guilt that motivated him.

I think V is purposefully being portrayed as morally ambiguous/neutral character who does (mostly) good things when it serves his purpose, but has no qualms about acting in an evil way (killing of defenceless Kubota), and generally wants to avoid situations where he would be forced to act at all if it went against his pursuit of power (hiding below the deck most of the time since he left Azure city and leaving the fleet after an event that was a big disturbance in his research).

I find this explanation more believable than the alternative, but since V is portrayed so ambiguously, I still don't have any definite opinion on the subject.

Linkavitch
2009-01-17, 01:10 PM
Like the last panel.:smallbiggrin: But now I feel sorry for V! He not just an egotistical pig, he has a reason!

Samurai Jill
2009-01-17, 01:11 PM
I have that book.

Good strip.

Mc. Lovin'
2009-01-17, 01:25 PM
Wow, that was an amazing comic Giant! guess we know why V's being such an a-hole right now :smallwink:

Yagerr
2009-01-17, 01:28 PM
NO! I wanna see the new belkar side quest!

kidding

Clamps
2009-01-17, 01:30 PM
V had been casting spells constantly through the battle, and at least as far as we saw they were useful. Invisibility was her last spell, which means she'd exhausted a wizard's full supply. If she had been a sorceror that would mean she would have only been able to cast a fraction of the spells (meaning many less hobgoblin deaths, probably less Azurite survivors, less effective resistance etc. This is more an example of why a a well prepared Wizard is much better than a sorceror.

Actually, in a situation like that, with mobs of weak enemies, Sorcs are better than Wizards, since they have way more spells. Wizards are better in most DnD games because they're allowed to rest when the need to.

Aaaanyway. Is V's goal to find a plot hole, or is he looking for plot holes to "empty his mind".

Prowl
2009-01-17, 01:42 PM
that's sure to winch up a few pairs of shorts

docstrange
2009-01-17, 01:43 PM
Shouldn't it be "useless gods-damned magic?"

kamuishirou
2009-01-17, 01:45 PM
Poor V. Now we know a little bit about why he/she's acting the way they are.

docstrange
2009-01-17, 01:57 PM
I think this remorse/survivor guilt of V is an interesting new twist. He's doing something few have done in this strip: acting like a person, not a PC.

What V did is perfectly reasonable from the point of view of a PC: he was not effective in battle anymore, the battle was lost, so turn invisible. A person might have trouble doing this: "Why should my life be worth more than that guy's? Why do I get to be the one who lives?" But a PC knows the answer to that question: he's a PC and his life is indeed worth more than an NPCs. No problem.

It's like V broke the 4th wall and put it back up again in the same strip.

kunou126
2009-01-17, 02:07 PM
Holy reference to something that happened almost 200 strips ago batman!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html

At least now hir obsessive behavior is explained. Guilt mixed in with refusing to accept that magic is not without its limits and that what happened was not hir fault or ability to control. Even with all that power, the mage still has a dark inner feeling of helplessness.

Leo_Forestclaw
2009-01-17, 02:13 PM
My reaction is simple:

Oh, crap.

Lunaya
2009-01-17, 02:14 PM
Huh. I thought that female soldier was Kazumi, in which case V's dream wasn't a memory, but hir speculating as to what happened to the soldiers left behind. Either way, it better explains why s/he isn't trancing.

I love it when Rich makes fun of our speculations. :smallbiggrin: I missed V.

Ted The Bug
2009-01-17, 02:15 PM
That.
Was.
Brilliant.
And it explains a lot, too! Odd to see V having guilt...or really much of any emotion. Still, where's Qarr?

Vemynal
2009-01-17, 02:30 PM
And thus V's mental breakdown is explained in one fell swoop.

and i feel so bad for h** as well!

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-01-17, 02:37 PM
Excellent comic Rich! Thank you!

I loved it. Really puts a perspective on the troubled belief in the unfallable power of magic in DnD (and other games). Especially for a 'melee fanboy' like me :smallbiggrin:

Zevox
2009-01-17, 02:39 PM
Heh, amusing pun at the end. The Giant poking fun at all the discussion of V's trancing vs regaining spells around here?

Anyway, nice to see we're back to V, even if this doesn't really tell us much we didn't already know. Though the fact that her guilt is manifesting in dreams when she trances is a nice bit of explanatory information. Can't wait to see how V's latest plot progresses.

Zevox

Athaniar
2009-01-17, 02:42 PM
I wouldn't say V is compassionate, but rather that its guilt is unconsciously breaking through its vulcan-like facade, probably driving it crazy in the process.

MickJay
2009-01-17, 02:43 PM
I love it when Rich makes fun of our speculations. :smallbiggrin: I missed V.

Even better, since it still makes room for more speculations: is V feeling bad because: 1. he failed to help? 2. his magic isn't as powerful as he wants it to be? 3. both? :smallbiggrin:

I can't really imagine any other reason behind the trancing commentary except as a response to the forum discussion :smallwink:

OOTS_Supporter
2009-01-17, 03:05 PM
This one explained a lot, and chopped down some epleptic trees.

RosesOnConcrete
2009-01-17, 03:10 PM
Oh, V. Not often I want to give a character whose recent actions bug me that much a great big hug.

LuisDantas
2009-01-17, 03:14 PM
I would guess V didn't say it because even though V knew there was absolutly nothing he could do, he couldn't bring himself to try to justify not being able to save them. In his mind, he should've been able to save them.

The nightmare is brought by a combination of guilt and shame. Not only did V fail to save countless innocent lives, but he believes he SHOULD'VE been able to save them. Hell, because of his ego, it might not even be a stretch to say he thinks he should've been able to win the entire battle singlehandedly. Obviously, those of us who aren't haunted by those we couldn't save realize just how unreasonable that is, but V's mind isn't right at the moment...

Precisely. The rank and file of Azure City's soldiers weren't apparently all that well trained, for relying on a PC that was not even supposed to be there with them in the first place.

Blaming Vaarsuvius for their situation was grossly unfair. Besides, if they knew about hir invisibility, they must have known or guessed that its spells were depleted as well.

I had hopes that Qarr got rejected by Vaarsuvius immediately upon contacting hir. My hopes grew this issue, with such a perfect explanation for his/her behavior.

The parallels with Belkar, Celia and Miko (all of whom have something of a Savior complex themselves) are quite interesting:

Vaarsuvius has a pride problem almost as serious as Miko's. He/she would make a fine paladin by temperament.

Celia has just had to take a stance in a situation of risk of life and limb and was chastised for doing so. Vaarsuvius is chastised by others (unfairly) and by hirself (unwisely) for not being formidable enough to be capable of doing so decisively.

Belkar would never let himself suffer due to the well-being of others, much less their disapproval. Pride, however, is probably one of his main traits.

I'm looking forward to the next confrontation between Vaarsuvius and Belkar. Time is way due for the little psychopatic halfling to be taken down a peg or a dozen, and who better than Vaarsuvius for doing so? More so when he learns that Belkar hindered down their options of making contact at an earlier time.

In fact, the one thing that I disliked on this change of scenario from last strip is that we don't yet know if Haley kept her decision of departing Belkar. She had good reasons for doing so, and they are only greater now that he is not even sick or cursed anymore.

NamonakiRei
2009-01-17, 03:16 PM
Wow, poor V. I mean, V hasn't tranced in months just because V isn't capable of accepting the guilt of what V made on Azure city(Leaving both paladins and friends behind). This explains most of V's "egoism" while with Elan and Durkon, and... well, crazy evil-headed behaviour. V has a conscience telling V that V did something wrong. REAL wrong. In fact, so wrong that V supresses the memory. So V is stressing and panicking out because V wasn't efficient enough when needed. So from the mixture of guilt, fear and regret(Of not having imporvoved before, probably), comes the obssesion of V of researching new spells and getting STRONGER. So as not to fail again. I just hope V'll fry Qarr.

LuisDantas
2009-01-17, 03:18 PM
Um, Sorcerers have more spells, you know. They only specialized spells V cast were from scrolls - all other were of blasty kind, which all sorcerers have, anyway.

If V was a Warmage, she would have owned that army by herself :smallamused:

In-game, that's not something that Vaarsuvius had any choice about, now is it?

Out-of-game, that would make for rather difficult plotting, albeit perhaps in the form of a shorter and more catartic story. I don't know about that.

Elfey
2009-01-17, 03:47 PM
I looked back at http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html and V seemed short tempered and terse. This would explain why.

Further, being an Elf, PTSD like this makes alot of sense. There are a few novels out there that hit the head on the nail for what happens when you're an extremely long lived elf who remembers before the fall of the Great and Good Empire or the end of The Age. LotR got this despite PTSD being not as well understood when it was wrote, although shell shocked was known.

The PTSD is especially bad because of V's pride and faith in magic as the end all be all. When V is unable to do a thing, despite using everything in the Arsenal.

derfenrirwolv
2009-01-17, 04:10 PM
Compassion, or shame/anger at being helpless? The latter strikes right at the core of V's pride (my read is that V shares Eugene Greenhilt's belief that magic trumps everything else, but doesn't bother to say so in such direct language).

Its not one or the other. V can certainly hold BOTH emotions, compassion and shame at the same time in a confusing morass.


Although i suppose the fact that V is taking his emotions, and trying to shove them into a deep dark place where they can either fester and die or latter explode as full blown psycosis hints towards him being male.

Starscream
2009-01-17, 04:11 PM
Nice to see that V's behavior is a result of more than an obsession with finding Haley.

Ceric
2009-01-17, 04:13 PM
Aww. Poor V.

Kaytara
2009-01-17, 04:14 PM
...Wow. So whenever V trances, he keeps coming back to a very painful memory. And V's deliberately regaining spells without trancing, because trancing would just mean getting more nightmares... That explains so much.

The PTSD explanation really seems to be spot on here. It explains both V's obsession and his increasing bitchiness with his teammates.

So that's what happened during the time between V casting invisibility and reappearing on Hinjo's boat. It all just makes so much more sense now...

Morty
2009-01-17, 04:18 PM
Vaarsuvius is chastised by others (unfairly) and by hirself (unwisely) for not being formidable enough to be capable of doing so decisively.


I'm not sure if it's really unfair. Vaarsuvius might not have been able to save those soldires, but he constantly behaves as if s/he were nigh-omnipotent. Had Vaarsuvius been less self-confident, things migh have gone differently. I myself don't really feel bad for Vaarsuvius- he's had that coming for a long time. That, and I'm still hoping V will turn evil.

Kaytara
2009-01-17, 04:30 PM
I'm not sure if it's really unfair. Vaarsuvius might not have been able to save those soldires, but he constantly behaves as if s/he were nigh-omnipotent. Had Vaarsuvius been less self-confident, things migh have gone differently. I myself don't really feel bad for Vaarsuvius- he's had that coming for a long time. That, and I'm still hoping V will turn evil.

I'll have to disagree, for two reasons.
Firstly, those soldiers didn't really know V and still expected him to save them. Not having a high-and-mighty attitude would have changed nothing.
Secondly, having people beg you to help while you're completely powerless to do so could easily haunt much more humble people, not just power-obsessed ones.

Morty
2009-01-17, 04:39 PM
Firstly, those soldiers didn't really know V and still expected him to save them. Not having a high-and-mighty attitude would have changed nothing.

True. I'm not saying V is the only one to blame for the situation- just that s/he deserved a good whack over the head for a long time now.


Secondly, having people beg you to help while you're completely powerless to do so could easily haunt much more humble people, not just power-obsessed ones.

Well, I'm still not sure whether V is more haunted by soldier's death or her percieved weakness. Also, in either case, V not being absolutely confident in his own power might have at least prevented her from suffering such a mental breakdown. No other member of the Order suffers from anything like that.

maxon
2009-01-17, 04:40 PM
Holy reference to something that happened almost 200 strips ago batman!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html

Yeah - that was great.

Lerky
2009-01-17, 04:48 PM
wait, so that was a memory not just a bad dream that might've represented V regretting leaving the group even though they could benefit from his/her powers?

Anyway, I'm wondering where this is going for V. V right now is the one character who's future I can't put my finger on, I mean we all know (or at least hope) that Haley and the team will reunite, but how do they get V back is the main question I can't come up with a decent answer for...

KIDS
2009-01-17, 04:50 PM
And all because some less than imaginative person wrote in the PHB decades ago that elves relive old memories to retain their identity during their trance...

Kaytara
2009-01-17, 04:56 PM
Well, I'm still not sure whether V is more haunted by soldier's death or her percieved weakness. Also, in either case, V not being absolutely confident in his own power might have at least prevented her from suffering such a mental breakdown. No other member of the Order suffers from anything like that.

Yes, and V's pride is a likely culprit, I'll give you that. Although the others weren't quite in the same situation, either. They were together, for one thing, at least at first, and with Haley's decisiveness, they didn't bear the burden of having to consciously choose to flee the battle while people around them still needed their help. And of course, no one condemned them for making that choice, either - on the contrary, Hinjo and presumably Kazumi and Daigo came to support that decision.

Also, as the old saying goes, the higher you are, the harder you fall. This is applicable in regards to pride but also to power. V is the one who's expected to contribute most of all, so it's a harder blow when he isn't able to. Someone like Haley, on the other hand, is basically just another soldier, and therefore not someone who would have guilt issues over failing to turn the tide of the battle.
In short, if the other members of the Order were also spectacularly powerful, without the excessive pride, then presumably they would be more bothered by the outcome of that battle as well.

It's somewhat ironic that the soldiers fleeing in this comic literally expected the wizard to "do it".

XtheYeti
2009-01-17, 05:32 PM
V will gain his/her ultimite arcane power in the following manner
tells the dm "give me ultiite arcane power or else" when OotS is about to die dm says "or else what?" V responds with the right 4 words to the right person (the dm) at the right time (right before everyone dies) for all the worng reasons. (not to save the party but to do XY and Z) the words V says to the dm are as follows after being asked "or what" V "the plot hole is"

SteveMB
2009-01-17, 05:49 PM
Wow, poor V. I mean, V hasn't tranced in months just because V isn't capable of accepting the guilt of what V made on Azure city(Leaving both paladins and friends behind). This explains most of V's "egoism" while with Elan and Durkon

OTOH, V might have stuck around as long as (s)he did in part because Elan did somewhat alleviate h** feelings of uselessness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html).

Darkhands
2009-01-17, 05:58 PM
I'm looking forward to the next confrontation between Vaarsuvius and Belkar. Time is way due for the little psychopatic halfling to be taken down a peg or a dozen, and who better than Vaarsuvius for doing so?

V is typically the straight man to Belkar's craziness. Belkar's newfound direction in life coupled with V's recent loss of direction in life is practically a role reversal for the two.

I think it's the other way around... V is poised to be knocked down a few pegs by Belkar.

[sWc]Konman
2009-01-17, 06:03 PM
Hmm, well that explains that, though I'm surprised V just stood there speechless instead of saying something like "I'm out of spells!"

Enter Qarr, stage left, let the temptation to greater power begin.

it was a dream, v was probably unable to say anything.

David Argall
2009-01-17, 06:08 PM
wait, so that was a memory not just a bad dream that might've represented V regretting leaving the group even though they could benefit from his/her powers?
V was showing all these symptoms long before he left the ship. So this is a "genuine" memory of what she failed to do in Azure City.


Anyway, I'm wondering where this is going for V. V right now is the one character who's future I can't put my finger on, I mean we all know (or at least hope) that Haley and the team will reunite, but how do they get V back is the main question I can't come up with a decent answer for...
A sending will tell V where to meet up with the group.

FoE
2009-01-17, 06:08 PM
Gods, the people of Azure City were stupid. "Oh save us! Save us! We tossed aside our weapons when we abandoned our posts and now we can't defend ourselves! Oh no, the hobgoblins are getting close! Instead of running for safety, let's continue to pester the invisible wizard who refuses to acknowledge us!" They died like sheep, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DyingLikeAnimals) unwilling or incapable of doing anything to help themselves. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HoldingOutForAHero)

Good strip, though.

Kish
2009-01-17, 06:27 PM
Gods, the people of Azure City were stupid. "Oh save us! Save us! We tossed aside our weapons when we abandoned our posts and now we can't defend ourselves! Oh no, the hobgoblins are getting close! Instead of running for safety, let's continue to pester the invisible wizard who refuses to acknowledge us!" They died like sheep, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DyingLikeAnimals) unwilling or incapable of doing anything to help themselves. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HoldingOutForAHero)
That's what they did in Vaarsuvius' dream, not in real life.

FoE
2009-01-17, 06:31 PM
Uh-uh. Was memory, not dream. V says as much. Is part of trance.

King of Nowhere
2009-01-17, 06:34 PM
I always knew V genuinely cared for the others. I hope that will put the "V does'nt care for anyone" off the table

The Sandman
2009-01-17, 06:39 PM
Something I just thought of, after reading the latest comic.

Vaarsuvius' problem is essentially that, once s/he ran out of spells at Azure City, his/her only remaining options were either stay invisible and watch everyone get slaughtered, or futilely try to help and get butchered along with them. Given the game mechanics that govern the OotS world, there is very little s/he could have done to change this while remaining a pure spellcaster.

But what if s/he finds out about 4e game mechanics? Now, I know that Rich mentioned that he did not intend to convert the strip to 4e, for a number of very good reasons. In the specific case of Vaarsuvius, however, there is actually an in-character reason for an attempt to convert to 4e; namely, that a wizard always has at least his or her At-Will Power to fall back upon, meaning that V would always have at least one spell still available under any circumstances.

Any thoughts on this?

Squall83
2009-01-17, 06:56 PM
That was MEAN!!! >_< I wanted to see a just few more Haley strips in order to see how that contract thing will turn out.

And even if you really need to switch locations, then why don't you show us some more Xykon strips? If you'd alternate the plots I believe it would be Xykons turn. I wanna see whether he stays in Azure City to kill the resistance or whether the goes towards Girards gate.

And I wanna see Miko meeting up with Roys father. ^^ I just reread the first 400 strips and I miss the kung fu paladin chick.

Oh well, what the heck. In fact I'm also interested in the consequences of V's behaviour. But there is still one thing I don't get as a non-expert in D&D:
trance = 4 hours
rest = 8 hours
Why is it more efficient to rest? Afaik you're not allowed to do much while resting.

SteveMB
2009-01-17, 07:03 PM
But there is still one thing I don't get as a non-expert in D&D:
trance = 4 hours
rest = 8 hours
Why is it more efficient to rest? Afaik you're not allowed to do much while resting.

V is rationalizing an excuse to avoid trancing, because trancing brings the painful memories to the surface. It doesn't have to make sense; it just has to be good enough to paper over the real issue.

Zevox
2009-01-17, 07:04 PM
But there is still one thing I don't get as a non-expert in D&D:
trance = 4 hours
rest = 8 hours
Why is it more efficient to rest? Afaik you're not allowed to do much while resting.
It isn't. V is using the fact that she'll be awake all 8 hours of her rest period if she doesn't trance as an excuse to tell herself it's more efficient not to trance, in order to avoid reliving the memory we just witnessed.

Incidentally, something you may not be aware of, even if she tranced, she has to rest for a full 8 hours to replenish her spells. When she trances that just means she ends up having to rest while awake for 4 hours in addition to the trance period. So either way, time spent resting for spell preparation is not the issue, just the amount of time she's conscious.

Zevox

Tussy the Druid
2009-01-17, 07:11 PM
Aw geez....
I'd been thinking V had just been turning into a jerk because of the usual pompous elfen (elven?) arrogance....
But man, I just lost any animosity I had towards him.

Great comic, Giant.

The_Weirdo
2009-01-17, 07:14 PM
I'm a Wizard player, and my personality matches most Wizards too. :p

So, I'll put in my two cents.

First of all, Wizards have an ego. They are powerful, they are capable, they are able to alter reality to their whims and liking. They know the secret language, they read the secret signs, they take for granted concepts mere mortals can't even pronounce, let alone understand. Or so they think.

Second of all, Wizards are weak and fragile. They can't fight, they can't protect themselves, they can't move a finger if they are directly faced with an enemy. They are puny and weak, cowardly and small when facing the most measly of threats. Or so they think.

Spells are the ways Wizards have to keep the monsters - or reality - at bay. Once they run out of spells, reality will come to hurt them. So there must be a fighter to deal with it himself if the wizard runs out of spells. Because if reality manages to hurt the wizard, it will crush the wizard, badly. It will HURT. This frustrates a wizard to no end, for several reasons. First of all, he "should" be able to deal with it, and he "should" be able to deal with it at a distance. He shouldn't HAVE to "touch" reality. He shouldn't HAVE to acknowledge how small he is facing it. His spells should make him invincible, the centerpiece of the group, able to rest easy in that safe place where reality can't hurt them. Second of all, he realizes that the mere mortals he put himself above can now deal with the threats as well - in a way the wizard doesn't approve and is incapable of dealing, directly. Seeing others touch that reality and face it directly reminds the wizard of exactly how useless he is when his spells fail him. Wizards will ALSO value intelligence and magic over other dumb methods, and feel/know that magic SHOULD win over them. They hate it when that's not the case, much like a normal person would find it disturbing to see a bar of lead floating on water.

The moment a wizard runs out of spells is a moment of FEAR for them. Utter, abject fear. Without the spells, wizards have to deal with being puny and small, weak and cowardly. Wizards don't want to deal with weapons - "There is a vast gulf between being proficient in a weapon and being good with a weapon" anyways, so they'd be nearly useless. They know they CAN'T deal with it without something to keep them safely distant - the magic in this case.

Then comes this moment for V.

V was running from a battle in which he KNEW no one was going to protect V from that orange, savage reality filled with the very "dumb, stupid" weapons V so despises. Running out of spells was a moment of fear. Realizing no one was going to protect him, another.

Then came the last straws. People asked for V's help, reminding V of how useless V was without spells. V watched that reality he HAD to run away from, that reality of a dumb, stupid mob that was winning with that dumb, stupid, DIRECT power, slaughter the people V, the Wizard, the useful, powerful, capable Wizard that can deal with any threat, was repeatedly asked to protect. The last words V heard was a young woman that DEALT with that reality to its final end cursing V and V's "useless" magic. V, that should be powerful, V, that should be capable, V, that should be useful was useless. So was V's magic. So was V's one tool to deal with reality. V watched in horror as the last breath of a woman was spent in telling V exactly how useless V was. How cowardly, how weak and how impotent in facing that reality. That reality from which V should be so safe, safe with V's spells, or even safe with the "big hulking moron" that deals with it when V runs out of them. The last breath of a woman that dealt with a "dumb, stupid" reality - and died in the process - was a none-too-gentle reminder to V of how useless V and V's magic were at that moment. How powerless V was without V's magic. And how unable V was to deal with a power that should be so below V. And it hurt. It hurt because it hit V's fears, it hurt because it hit V's ego, it hurt because it reminded V of how limited V was - and Wizards HATE to be reminded that, because that also reminds them that reality, without their spells, can come beat them up at any moment, due to how small, powerless and cowardly they are.

Wizards are powerful, magnificent and capable. Wizards are meek, insignificant and incapable. Wizards know both those facts about themselves, and are constantly reminded of both.

And V has been reminded, over, and over, and over, of the second one. Without anything AT ALL to remind V of the first one. Anything AT ALL, such as, perhaps, making a measly Divination spell to find the other members of the group work.

MisterLeirus
2009-01-17, 07:17 PM
Poor, poor V. AND with one single thread the giant has make him likeble again. Great.

It is great writing, we know the secrets which move the characters... but the other characters do not.

Would have Elan let V go had he know this?
Had Celia been so mean with Haley had she know about hr father?

Assassin89
2009-01-17, 07:28 PM
Poor, poor V. AND with one single thread the giant has make him likable again. Great.

It is great writing, we know the secrets which move the characters... but the other characters do not.

Would have Elan let V go had he know this?
Had Celia been so mean with Haley had she know about hr father?

*Prepares torch*
Don't plant more epileptic trees, especially since the Giant has chopped several down.

V is overcome with guilt and needs to find himself.

bluedolphin359
2009-01-17, 07:29 PM
Something I just thought of, after reading the latest comic.

Vaarsuvius' problem is essentially that, once s/he ran out of spells at Azure City, his/her only remaining options were either stay invisible and watch everyone get slaughtered, or futilely try to help and get butchered along with them. Given the game mechanics that govern the OotS world, there is very little s/he could have done to change this while remaining a pure spellcaster.

But what if s/he finds out about 4e game mechanics? Now, I know that Rich mentioned that he did not intend to convert the strip to 4e, for a number of very good reasons. In the specific case of Vaarsuvius, however, there is actually an in-character reason for an attempt to convert to 4e; namely, that a wizard always has at least his or her At-Will Power to fall back upon, meaning that V would always have at least one spell still available under any circumstances.

Any thoughts on this?

Maybe the four words are: "Convert us to 4e" :smallbiggrin:

@ The_Weirdo: I like your perspective here. I think I understand V better now

Zevox
2009-01-17, 07:38 PM
Don't plant more epileptic trees, especially since the Giant has chopped several down.
You know, now that I think of it, doesn't this strip pretty much kill the whole "V has turned into a Lich" claim? Since it directly displays that the reason for her current state is her lack of trancing, and why she isn't doing that. Not to mention that, since she can still nod off like that, she has to be able to trance, or at least fall unconscious, which Liches cannot do.

That makes me happy. That was one of the most annoying, ridiculous theories on these boards.


Maybe the four words are: "Convert us to 4e" :smallbiggrin:
Doubt it. The "four words" prophecy strip was posted long before 4e came out, or was even officially announced. Unless the Giant changes the plans he had back when he first had the Oracle make that prophecy, 4e won't be involved in fulfilling it.

Zevox

MuseUnchained
2009-01-17, 07:40 PM
Good or evil issues aside, whatever horrifies V about the memory whether watching people die or the comment about her power or both (my own view), I feel distinctly less sorry for the people V 'let down' than I do for V. They died cowards' deaths, running away from battle (having deserted the walls and left those who stood to die themselves) and begging someone else to save them.

Saint Nil
2009-01-17, 07:43 PM
Thanks for not making V a heartless bastard Giant.:smallsmile:

THough I do wish you wouldn't say GD.:smallfrown:

Kaytara
2009-01-17, 07:47 PM
I just realized exactly why Vaarsuvius of all people is reading a book that is labeled "for dummies". :smallamused:

Vaarsuvius is reading that book during his rest time. He's reading up on loopholes to overcome the Cloister spell and thus progressing in his research. But it's not "mentally demanding" because it's written for someone with a far lower INT score than his own. XD

This answers two questions: How the hell V could possibly be more "efficient" by eliminating trancing from his schedule and what exactly is NOT "mentally demanding" to a character with genius-level intelligence. :smallamused:

Eric O'Really
2009-01-17, 07:49 PM
Something I just thought of, after reading the latest comic.

Vaarsuvius' problem is essentially that, once s/he ran out of spells at Azure City, his/her only remaining options were either stay invisible and watch everyone get slaughtered, or futilely try to help and get butchered along with them. Given the game mechanics that govern the OotS world, there is very little s/he could have done to change this while remaining a pure spellcaster.

But what if s/he finds out about 4e game mechanics? Now, I know that Rich mentioned that he did not intend to convert the strip to 4e, for a number of very good reasons. In the specific case of Vaarsuvius, however, there is actually an in-character reason for an attempt to convert to 4e; namely, that a wizard always has at least his or her At-Will Power to fall back upon, meaning that V would always have at least one spell still available under any circumstances.

Any thoughts on this?


also intelligence now adds its bonus to AC, not to mention the possibility for spellcasters to wear armor now ^^

takes a lot of squishiness away from the wizard :smallbiggrin:

MisterLeirus
2009-01-17, 07:53 PM
*Prepares torch*
Don't plant more epileptic trees, especially since the Giant has chopped several down.

V is overcome with guilt and needs to find himself.

What? what do you mean with epileptic trees?

I was just giving my two cents... :smalleek:

Zevox
2009-01-17, 07:55 PM
He's reading up on loopholes to overcome the Cloister spell and thus progressing in his research.
Er, no, not a chance. She doesn't even know the Cloister spell exists, so that's impossible regardless. And a book about how to spot plotholes in a story is not going to contain any information at all about such a spell.

Basically, the book is just a joke aimed at the fans. Yes, it's a "for dummies" book, and thus not mentally demanding enough to interrupt V's rest, which is part of the joke. And the plothole-spotting refers to how much discussed the "how is V preparing spells without trancing" issue was here (which is obvious since it is shown immediately after V answers that question).

Zevox

Kaytara
2009-01-17, 08:00 PM
Er, no, not a chance. She doesn't even know the Cloister spell exists, so that's impossible regardless. And a book about how to spot plotholes in a story is not going to contain any information at all about such a spell.


You read my comment too literally. I know V doesn't know about the Cloister. I just said "overcoming the Cloister spell" rather than "overcoming whatever it is that's blocking his scrying spells" because the former is much shorter.
And while the book won't contain any information about the Cloister spell in particular, it's likely to have potentially useful information on dealing with communication problems and the like. Which is why V reading it.

Also, I doubt V is going to spend eight hours reading up on trancing and resting loopholes. It's likely just another bit of information that was contained there, but the thing he's really searching for is something that can help him solve his communication puzzle.

Upon further consideration, this also adds another possible reason why Vaarsuvius didn't want to be disturbed by having to fight random encounters and whatnot. Rather than just the (insignificant) loss of time, it would mean expending his spells and having to rest - and risk trancing - later. Therefore, V was only willing to do it if it was worth the nightmares, i.e. if substantial XP gain was involved.

Zevox
2009-01-17, 08:05 PM
And while the book won't contain any information about the Cloister spell in particular, it's likely to have potential information on dealing with communication problems and the like. Which is why V reading it.
How do you figure? It's a book about spotting plot holes - i.e. inconsistencies or illogical events in the plots of stories - not magic, nor communication, nor, well, anything potentially useful to V at all. Most likely it's just a distraction to keep her mind occupied so she doesn't fall into a trance (aside from being a joke, of course).

Zevox

Kaytara
2009-01-17, 08:10 PM
How do you figure? It's a book about spotting plot holes - i.e. inconsistencies or illogical events in the plots of stories - not magic, nor communication, nor, well, anything potentially useful to V at all. Most likely it's just a distraction to keep her mind occupied so she doesn't fall into a trance (aside from being a joke, of course).

Zevox

Yes, inconsistencies or illogical events in the plots of stories. A group of allies becoming separated and needing to overcome obstacles to get back together is a common plot development. Therefore, the scenarios analyzed in that book could help Vaarsuvius understand his own situation better as well as get new ideas on how to contact Haley. In theory. That's what I meant by "communication problems".

Besides, an activity that just keeps V occupied probably isn't something he'd describe as helping him progress in his task.

Carnivorous_Bea
2009-01-17, 08:10 PM
Well, I don't see the two sources of V's breakdown being necessarily opposed. In fact, I think that both of them are there, tending towards a single point.

The fact that V was unable to help people who needed help and was forced to watch them be killed.

The fact that V was helpless -- which is a pretty loathsome experience for anyone.

So why not both?

TheSummoner
2009-01-17, 08:15 PM
Besides, an activity that just keeps V occupied probably isn't something he'd describe as helping him progress in his task.

True, but anything that kept him from being destroyed by his guilt might be...

Bitzeralisis
2009-01-17, 08:16 PM
...

What? :smalleek:

Zevox
2009-01-17, 08:17 PM
Yes, inconsistencies or illogical events in the plots of stories. A group of allies becoming separated and needing to overcome obstacles to get back together is a common plot development. Therefore, the scenarios analyzed in that book could help Vaarsuvius understand his own situation better as well as get new ideas on how to contact Haley. In theory. That's what I meant by "communication problems".
Eh, I don't know. It seems more than a bit of a stretch. Presumably, the book isn't just some giant compilation of known plot holes, but a more general look at how to weed them out. And of course since V's situation is one without any such plot holes, it's hard to believe that such a book would contain anything useful to her whatsoever, even if it is a giant compilation like that.


Besides, an activity that just keeps V occupied probably isn't something he'd describe as helping him progress in his task.
Unless, of course, that's still just V deluding herself in order to avoid trancing. Most likely a "for dummies" book like that is the best she can do while resting, and thus about all that she has to occupy herself during those eight long hours. And if she doesn't occupy herself with something, her risk of nodding off increases, probably greatly.

Zevox

Kaytara
2009-01-17, 08:35 PM
Yes, I agree that V's statement of progressing at his task needs to be taken with a grain of salt because of his huge psychological issues at the moment.

As for the book, I suppose it could be either of those things. We don't actually know what's written in it, so...If we assume that V's situation is one without plotholes, Vaarsuvius may not be necessarily aware of that and therefore still try to locate some.

In any case, the fact itself that Vaarsuvius has grown so desperate as to try to defeat the problem by using metalogic is worthy of concern...

Shatteredtower
2009-01-17, 08:47 PM
Ellen, good summary.

When V admitted having only one spell, were the four cantrip slots included? Hard to see what good they'd have been. Sad to say that invisibility could have been used to help the wall's defenders -- provided there was some sort of long, low barricade, weighing no more than 1300 lbs, to cast it on. Wouldn't have saved the day, but breaking the charge in the first few ranks could have had more impact than another fireball.

Basically, the book is just a joke aimed at the fans.

Since it's the author, not the fans, that create the plot holes, the joke is aiming in the opposite direction. :smallwink:

Zevox
2009-01-17, 08:48 PM
Yes, I agree that V's statement of progressing at his task needs to be taken with a grain of salt because of his huge psychological issues at the moment.

As for the book, I suppose it could be either of those things. We don't actually know what's written in it, so...If we assume that V's situation is one without plotholes, Vaarsuvius may not be necessarily aware of that and therefore still try to locate some.
Agreed.


In any case, the fact itself that Vaarsuvius has grown so desperate as to try to defeat the problem by using metalogic is worthy of concern...
Really? That seems about par for course for this strip to me. Granted, V has done less of this than, say, Elan, but she hasn't been entirely devoid of it. See the "which twin is which" situation, or her decision to kill Kubota.

Zevox

Boogastreehouse
2009-01-17, 08:59 PM
Something I just thought of, after reading the latest comic.

Vaarsuvius' problem is essentially that, once s/he ran out of spells at Azure City, his/her only remaining options were either stay invisible and watch everyone get slaughtered, or futilely try to help and get butchered along with them. Given the game mechanics that govern the OotS world, there is very little s/he could have done to change this while remaining a pure spellcaster.

But what if s/he finds out about 4e game mechanics? Now, I know that Rich mentioned that he did not intend to convert the strip to 4e, for a number of very good reasons. In the specific case of Vaarsuvius, however, there is actually an in-character reason for an attempt to convert to 4e; namely, that a wizard always has at least his or her At-Will Power to fall back upon, meaning that V would always have at least one spell still available under any circumstances.

Any thoughts on this?

Mmmm... nope. I'm afraid that I'll have to disagree with V finding the 4e wizard more appealing. I've given 4th edition a spin, focusing on wizard characters (although I admit our game hasn't gotten into the higher levels yet), and I can conclude that the amount of high-level versatility the 3.5 wizard enjoys far outweighs 4th edition's (admittedly cool) ability to always have at-will powers at your disposal at low levels.

Part of the fun of the old wizard is having a huge collection of spells, so that careful planning can prepare you for any situation. I expect that V likes this very much. The 4e wizard (in order to achieve the goal of having a game that is so balanced that all the characters sort of feel like variations of the same thing to me), is built so that you can really only have a few options for customization, depending on which spells and foci you choose.

I don't think that 4e wizards have the feel of understanding and altering the forces of nature that appeals to Vaarsuvius. Rather they have the feel of being a character class that steadily progresses up the levels and acquires new powers, just like every other character class.

Aquillion
2009-01-17, 09:01 PM
When V admitted having only one spell, were the four cantrip slots included? Hard to see what good they'd have been. Sad to say that invisibility could have been used to help the wall's defenders -- provided there was some sort of long, low barricade, weighing no more than 1300 lbs, to cast it on. Wouldn't have saved the day, but breaking the charge in the first few ranks could have had more impact than another fireball.
Yes, but that would likely leave V with no way to escape from the front lines. It is a little harsh to expect someone to directly and deliberately sacrifice their life in defense of a city that they were only in in the first place because it sent someone halfway across the world to arrest them.

V had already taken great risks in defense of Azure City, far beyond what could reasonably be required. There's no advantage to throwing your life away for every good cause that comes around, you know, especially when V could achieve much more and save many more people in the future by surviving (who is going to be the spellcaster on the walls for the next city the Hobgoblins attack if V dies here?)

Of course, knowing this intellectually doesn't necessarily make V's pain at not being able to do anything any less.

gamephil
2009-01-17, 09:11 PM
They died cowards' deaths, running away from battle (having deserted the walls and left those who stood to die themselves) and begging someone else to save them.

They died because, like V, they stood their ground until it was pointless to do so. They died because, unlike V, they didn't have an invisibility spell. If they are cowards, so is V, V is just better at it than they are.

SoC175
2009-01-17, 09:13 PM
Later, as the Dummies books got to be popular, they decided to branch out to non-computer subjects.
Like this (http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Dummies-Sports-Hobbies/dp/0470292903/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232244711&sr=8-1)? :smallbiggrin:

Quorothorn
2009-01-17, 09:14 PM
Yee-ouch. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder FTL.

Also, I'm guessing this sets off the V alignment debates all over again. ...Yup, looks like it is.

David Argall
2009-01-17, 09:17 PM
You know, now that I think of it, doesn't this strip pretty much kill the whole "V has turned into a Lich" claim? Since it directly displays that the reason for her current state is her lack of trancing, and why she isn't doing that. Not to mention that, since she can still nod off like that, she has to be able to trance, or at least fall unconscious, which Liches cannot do.
Yes, this puts it in need of True Ressurection.

It also puts "Disintegrate, Gust of Wind"= 4 words onto life support. It doesn't directly disprove it, but "I accept your offer" is so grossly superior, and so much more likely.



Presumably, the book isn't just some giant compilation of known plot holes, but a more general look at how to weed them out.

A book on how to week out plot holes is also a book on how to create them, if you are as intelligent as V. So maybe V can copy the Road to Morocco with something like "How did you overcome the Epic level magic?"-"I'm not going to explain. The readers wouldn't believe it."




But what if s/he finds out about 4e game mechanics? In the specific case of Vaarsuvius, however, there is actually an in-character reason for an attempt to convert to 4e; namely, that a wizard always has at least his or her At-Will Power to fall back upon, meaning that V would always have at least one spell still available under any circumstances.
4e makes the wizard, at high levels anyway, sharply weaker, and his at-will power is just a magic missile wand. So V would not be interested. Your 1st level mage might well be, but when you get into double figures, 3.5 is much more fun for the mage.

Vaarsuvius4181
2009-01-17, 09:32 PM
CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN WHATS GOING ON?? I get yhe memory but whats with the "no trancing" and "explains why V is leaving" and "plot holes???

NeonRonin
2009-01-17, 09:42 PM
Damn... where is Dr. Phil when you need him?

I just wonder how long V is going to be in a state of denial, b/c it sounds like s/he is trying to repress guilt feelings by saying reviewing memories is irrelevant.

Also brings to mind that old familiar saying how the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Twelve Gods help us all...

TheSummoner
2009-01-17, 09:50 PM
:drphil: Now V, you need to take a timeout and put things in perspective. There was nothing you could do and eating yourself up about it isn't going to help you. As for you, Celia, you need to take your friends' feelings into consideration. We both agree that those thieves don't want to be dead, but the way you went behind Haley's back was just plain wrong, and you know it! Roy, you need to stop being so dead... People are worrying about you and right now you're not doing much to help the overall situation. And YOU, at the computer need to get up and get some exercise. Don't sugercoat it, fatty, because you'd probably eat that too.

*gunshot* :smallamused:

Jalor
2009-01-17, 09:51 PM
Okay, I know he denies it, but he clearly reads the forums. Weren't we asking this question not too long ago?

Ronan
2009-01-17, 09:52 PM
Nice. Touching, clarifying, funny

and, as always, Suspenseful(yes, with a capital letter :smallbiggrin:)

Nice comic :smallwink:

Quorothorn
2009-01-17, 10:00 PM
Gods, the people of Azure City were stupid. "Oh save us! Save us! We tossed aside our weapons when we abandoned our posts and now we can't defend ourselves! Oh no, the hobgoblins are getting close! Instead of running for safety, let's continue to pester the invisible wizard who refuses to acknowledge us!" They died like sheep, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DyingLikeAnimals) unwilling or incapable of doing anything to help themselves. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HoldingOutForAHero)

Good strip, though.

...Was that you, then? Putting this into the "Holding Out" article, I mean.


You know, now that I think of it, doesn't this strip pretty much kill the whole "V has turned into a Lich" claim? Since it directly displays that the reason for her current state is her lack of trancing, and why she isn't doing that. Not to mention that, since she can still nod off like that, she has to be able to trance, or at least fall unconscious, which Liches cannot do.

That makes me happy. That was one of the most annoying, ridiculous theories on these boards.

Not to provide ammo for perpetuating that little annoyance, but...*ahem* (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html). :smallamused: Xykon wouldn't lie, would he?

Zevox
2009-01-17, 10:05 PM
Not to provide ammo for perpetuating that little annoyance, but...*ahem* (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html). :smallamused: Xykon wouldn't lie, would he?
Yes, yes he would. About anything that would provide him any minute amount of amusement to lie about. And you and I both know that was a joke anyway.

Zevox

qwerty
2009-01-17, 10:06 PM
For once i mite think v is male

WinterSolstice
2009-01-17, 10:14 PM
Azurite Soldiers completely at fault. V was essentially a glorified commoner without the use of spells or scrolls/wands etc. Nothing could be done. Dumbasses should've kept running for it.:smallyuk:

The_Weirdo
2009-01-17, 10:19 PM
:drphil: Now V, you need to take a timeout and put things in perspective. There was nothing you could do and eating yourself up about it isn't going to help you.

Oh, but V WILL eat V's self up over it. Because there HAD TO BE something he could do. V was SUPERIOR, V was the Wizard, V was... it. And without something V could do, in V's mind, V was... the wizard. That meekly nerdy guy that has to hide or be beaten up. That useless, cowardly guy that can't move a muscle. And to V, that is unbearable. A fact V eill never accept. Because to accept it would mean V isn't omnipotent. To accept it would mean V lost even when playing by V's rules.

I'd like to, apologizing for the bloggy part and assuring I'm only using it to make a point, point out that I don't know how exactly V would be able to go about forgetting it. I myself, that prize myself on my arguing abilities have one argument I lost to a fallacy, that I should have won, years ago, and I have no idea on how to let it go. V's going through something similar, but MUCH, MUCH harder, both in scope and in identity. So, yeah, "let it go" won't help him.

civver
2009-01-17, 10:20 PM
Finally, a change of scene.

Scarlet Knight
2009-01-17, 10:57 PM
Yes, (s)he could have saved them with a bow, that (s)he didn't even have, and even if (s)he had a bow that would not be able to save them against thousands of hob-goblins.

And if you are arguing that "the invisibility spell could have been used differently" then you clearly have not read the description of the invisibility spell (its not greater invisibility).

To me it sounds like you want to believe these things:smallsigh:.

It is unlikely that Vaarsuvius could have done anything more. Like Durkon said, "You've got to do the good you can do..."

I am simply agreeing with those that have posted about V's feelings of guilt over his choices, justified or not. I'm sure V is ashamed of her magical weakness; I just think V feels he was morally weak,too.

In #452, some soldiers ran; but others stood their ground and bought time for people to get to the boats. People like V. The sargeant asked V to pick up a bow, & V declined. The sargeant then started to try to think of a way to use V's last spell before realizing V was going to escape with it. V's last words to him were, "I'm sorry."
When discovered by the Azurites running , V said nothing , hiding from them. Of course they turned to him for help. They witnessed V destroy 3 elementals single handed! V did not think of some escape for them despite her 18 intellegence.
Small wonder that when V met Elan on the junk, he was embarrassed to be in hiding.

Clamps
2009-01-17, 11:29 PM
...Is V damaged? He's got the Hash Marks of Ow on his robes. Or is that just because he looks like hell from not sleeping?

Zevox
2009-01-17, 11:41 PM
...Is V damaged? He's got the Hash Marks of Ow on his robes. Or is that just because he looks like hell from not sleeping?
The marks on her robe could be from the fight with the demon. Or simply dirt. But yes, for the most part, she just looks like hell because she hasn't tranced in months.

Zevox

SteveMB
2009-01-17, 11:57 PM
Okay, I know he denies it, but he clearly reads the forums. Weren't we asking this question not too long ago?

The story line to date naturally invites those questions; a writer as good as Rich would know that without needing to actually see them asked. It's just a matter of deciding how long to keep the questions hanging and when to start answering them.

LuisDantas
2009-01-18, 12:15 AM
V is typically the straight man to Belkar's craziness. Belkar's newfound direction in life coupled with V's recent loss of direction in life is practically a role reversal for the two.

I think it's the other way around... V is poised to be knocked down a few pegs by Belkar.

But... that makes no sense!

multilis
2009-01-18, 12:21 AM
Beginning of battle makes clear that the Azure city defenders had moral penalties, so likely to run away/act stupid. First their last leader died (and everyone blames nasty literal backstabbing internal politics), then Elan screws up the rousing speech.

the_tick_rules
2009-01-18, 12:25 AM
a classic loop exploited by spell casters.

Lerky
2009-01-18, 12:35 AM
A sending will tell V where to meet up with the group.

but: Will V want them, or better yet: Will they want V?

SirEdward
2009-01-18, 12:38 AM
Sorcerers vs. Wizards
Seriously, it depends on the campaign. Both can be used as blaster artillery, it just depends on what needs to be done and how quickly and how drastically one needs to adapt. A wizard can't swap one spell for another, and tends to have fewer spells overall than a wizards. Conversely, a sorcerer cannot learn new and useful spells, and cast them after having a nap. What is more important, however, is what the party needs. A sorcerer isn't a walking encyclopedia of lore (particularly weaknesses) or bonus feats, and a wizard couldn't bluff his way out of a paper bag.

3.5 vs 4th Edition Wizard
Seriously, if a 3.5 wizard is preparing for a big battle with no sleep, it's best to start scrounging for wands and staffs. Yes, while wands may stink at higher levels, they are great at clearing mooks, especially for the double wand-wielder feat. And yes, a named staff tends to be over priced and easily drained, yet staffs of a single spell x50 are no laughing matter, as the spells take bonuses from the wielder. With that in mind, a well prepared wizard from 3.5 can more than make up for the 4.0 ability to cast a gutter spell infinitely.

Of course, V wasn't prepared as far as wizards go, and had a marked preference towards one shot scrolls. Oh well, I guess Adam Smith hates V's guts.

Aquillion
2009-01-18, 12:41 AM
3.5 vs 4th Edition Wizard
Seriously, if a 3.5 wizard is preparing for a big battle with no sleep, it's best to start scrounging for wands and staffs. Yes, while wands may stink at higher levels, they are great at clearing mooks, especially for the double wand-wielder feat. And yes, a named staff tends to be over priced and easily drained, yet staffs of a single spell x50 are no laughing matter, as the spells take bonuses from the wielder. With that in mind, a well prepared wizard from 3.5 can more than make up for the 4.0 ability to cast a gutter spell infinitely.
The 4.0 wizard isn't any different than a high-level fighter. They have no significant ability to influence a larger battlefield at all.

And most of the best spells for influencing a large area or affecting things on a large scale are conjuration or necromancy, both of which V has banned for plot reasons (because OOTS would be a much shorter and less interesting comic if V could just teleport everyone everywhere.)

silvadel
2009-01-18, 01:12 AM
"It Wasnt my fault"

ghillietoes42
2009-01-18, 01:36 AM
Poor V... All alone and nobody to talk to...

Azazel
2009-01-18, 01:45 AM
Wonderful bit of insight there.
The psychological significance of that event has many levels of effect, all very negative. It'll be nice to see how this develops.

FoE
2009-01-18, 01:46 AM
...Was that you, then? Putting this into the "Holding Out" article, I mean.

I didn't, actually, but I'm glad someone threw today's strip in there as an example.

Werekat
2009-01-18, 01:46 AM
The Weirdo: Well done! The best explanation yet, if I disagree with some of the terms and part of your position. This coming from another Wizard player, with a different view on reality, so...

Indeed, many wizards limit themselves to dealing with reality by magic, but not because they're not facing reality directly, but exactly because they are capable to access reality in a way more direct than any other class, however limited that ability may be. There's a few who purposefully learn to play by the rules the laws of physics usually confine them to, but they're pretty damn hard to play in D&D, because multiclassing a Wizard is, well, a daunting task. A lot easier to do in magic-oriented settings (Ars Magica, MtA, what have you). Most just try to make sure they're always able to access that layer beneath visible reality, the kind of "real" reality. "If you don't mind, I'm telling the laws of physics to shut up and sit down."

Thus, when faced with a problem they're prepared for, a wizard can sort of tear it apart from the inside. They can access its very essence and do to it what they will. They change the battlefield, and then suddenly it's the problem that has to deal with being out of the water, being limited by another's reality. The fight with the devil was a classic.

And then comes the moment when you have to play by the rules again. It's kind of like becoming a chess piece on your own board (kudos to Erf!) And the fact that you're not even a mediocre chess piece on your own does play in a lot.

In essence, reality may not be dumb and stupid, and a wizard needn't be afraid of it at the essence of their being. It may be beautiful and wondrous, a source of inspiration and power, whichever, but the wizard's capacity for control over it renders it non-mandatory. And whenever reality becomes mandatory again... Well, we all know how the sweetest fruit tastes when forced down our throats. Especially when we could have eaten it on our own, in the way we have chosen. And especially when the fruit is rotten.

The wizard's power is a tool that changes the wizard's limits to ones that are more preferable. And when one gets slammed headfirst into the limitations one sought to escape, it is painful, indeed.

The basic psychology that you showed remains the same, though. It is the dissonance between being able to change everything and being able to change nothing that breaks most wizards at one point or another. With V, I am condoled by the fact that those who live through this break tend to become archmages, or at least very, very capable and stable individuals in all areas of life or whatever state they end up in by that point.

Kish
2009-01-18, 02:00 AM
I didn't, actually, but I'm glad someone threw today's strip in there as an example.
...Whoever put it in there is apparently completely unclear on the concept of a dream. Oh well, it's certainly not the first wrong thing I've seen on the TVTropes site.

FoE
2009-01-18, 02:05 AM
...Whoever put it in there is apparently completely unclear on the concept of a dream. Oh well, it's certainly not the first wrong thing I've seen on the TVTropes site.

IT! IS! NOT! A! DREAM! :smallfurious:

V says that it is a memory that s/he is reviewing over and over. A memory, got it?! The fact that s/he is reliving said memory in a sleeplike state does not make it a goddamn dream.

Lord Seth
2009-01-18, 03:28 AM
CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN WHATS GOING ON?? I get yhe memory but whats with the "no trancing" and "explains why V is leaving" and "plot holes???I'm assuming that'll be explained later. I don't know if "later" is the next strip or 30+ down the road, but it'll probably make sense sometime.

While I do like V, I'm hoping this focus on him/her is only for a few strips so we can get back to getting the plot back on track. I really don't think I can take ANOTHER big cutaway from getting Roy resurrected...

EDIT: I should mention though, that it was awfully stupid for them to just stand around for so long (standing around for a short time makes sense, but standing around for that long was unintelligent). Had they kept running they might have made it.

TheBlackArcher
2009-01-18, 03:38 AM
Clarification.

IT WAS NOT A DREAM!

You know when V use his/her last spell to invis him/herself to get out of the city and ends up on the boat. That was on the way to the boat. Having used up all her spells, she couldn't help the soldiers running away. It was a memory of that.

eilandesq
2009-01-18, 04:00 AM
Hopefully, the bureaucratic outsider who debriefs that nameless female warrior will give her a good scolding about maliciously demoralizing someone who had helped to give thousands of her fellow Azurites hours--or months--of life that they otherwise would not have enjoyed, and who might yet be rather crucial in determining if that cozy LG afterlife that she's headed for will be allowed to continue without the threat of obliteration via freed Snarl.

Anteros
2009-01-18, 04:24 AM
Umm...couldn't V at least have advised them to run or something instead of just standing there, lining them up for slaughter? That's very very stupid behavior from him.

Aquillion
2009-01-18, 04:32 AM
Umm...couldn't V at least have advised them to run or something instead of just standing there, lining them up for slaughter? That's very very stupid behavior from him.Speaking would have risked alerting the Hobgoblins that there was someone invisible there.

KuH
2009-01-18, 05:02 AM
For all those who are asking 'I don't get it - why a book on plot holes?':

The lack of explanation for why V wasn't trancing WAS a 'plot hole'. The former 'explanation' that s/he was so obsessed with researching a spell that s/he didn't trance for weeks was just not credible.

So ah-hah, a strip that eliminates the plot hole ... whose punch line is a book entitled 'plot holes for dummies'.


I would also note that 'your magic was useless' is a much more damaging thing to V's psyche than 'nameless NPCs died because you didn't act'. This is a character whose self-referential statements show incredible pride in hir ultimate power.

Now the big alignment question will be whether s/he focuses on the 'prove I have ultimate power and lose my humanity' to overcome the feeling of weakness or if s/he focuses on the 'my power must benefit people'. All will be revealed ... in the plot line to come!

Weiser_Cain
2009-01-18, 05:12 AM
I think the fact that they died because she couldn't help them is the trauma otherwise why show it all. I think this also disproves all the 'V is evil' theories.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-18, 05:28 AM
To be fair, redcloak is still evil, and he cares (for the most part) about Goblins (not that I'm saying V is evil, but I tend to think that it's possible to care about others while being evil). To be fair, I found the soldier's comment ironic considering how much good AC's own spellcasters did (especially the High Priest).

Andorxor
2009-01-18, 05:37 AM
Poor V, that would really suck watching people die when you should have the power to save them, but don't.

He still had the power,he simply needed to tell them that he can't do anything instead of staying silent.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-18, 05:51 AM
I agree with everoyne else that s/he would have just given away their own position if they did that. If those guards fled before V did, how did she end up there? (I'm assuming they were present when V withdrew due to their position).

FoE
2009-01-18, 05:58 AM
If those guards fled before V did, how did she end up there? (I'm assuming they were present when V withdrew due to their position).

Knowing how those deserters and Vaarsuvius ran into each other depends on knowing the layout of Azure City. It could be that the path to the caves (where the deserters were headed) and the path to the docks (where V was headed) cross in some manner. The deserters, being very panicky, may have just milled around for a while.

Or maybe V just caught up to them as they were running. S/he didn't leave long after the deserters did, after all. And the hobgoblins were right on their tail.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-18, 06:01 AM
You could be right. The deserter's speed could have been reduced by their armour (I'm guess in it was medium, but it may have been heavier).

whitelaughter
2009-01-18, 06:22 AM
While it was foolish of the soldiers to throw away their weapons (unless that gained them a movement category, which is possible), they were doomed. Massively outnumbered ("there are so many of them"), and hobgoblins with standard equipment have a 30' speed, so they couldn't even outrun them. And if they'd made it to the caves - Hobs have darkvision, so the soldiers would have been even worse off.
There was nothing V could do. But knowing that, making the intelligent decision - still doesn't still stop the horror of standing by, helplessly watching the slaughter.
Poor V.

The_Weirdo
2009-01-18, 06:26 AM
Holy crap! I just figured out why V killed Kubota!

Of course! V would need to reaffirm V's power! And what better way to do so than Disintegrate the perceived villain!

The irony here is that maybe if Elan had found some way to reassure V V's magic was useful at THAT POINT, V might have an epiphany...

Fredthefighter
2009-01-18, 06:42 AM
Holy crap! I just figured out why V killed Kubota!

Of course! V would need to reaffirm V's power! And what better way to do so than Disintegrate the perceived villain!

The irony here is that maybe if Elan had found some way to reassure V V's magic was useful at THAT POINT, V might have an epiphany...

You may just be right there.

The_Weirdo
2009-01-18, 06:51 AM
You may just be right there.

I'm ALWAYS right. ;)

Well, not always, but, as I noted, I SHARE a few of V's traits, including the ego. :smallredface:

RMS Oceanic
2009-01-18, 07:19 AM
The irony here is that maybe if Elan had found some way to reassure V V's magic was useful at THAT POINT, V might have an epiphany...

That's certainly true, but I'm sure shock at the summary execution, combined with V's stated motivation for it, robbed Elan of the eloquence and clarity of mind needed to reassure V. Also remember that V most likely hasn't spoken of this scene, given h** justification for not trancing is mere efficiency rather than "nightmares", so it's unlikely for Elan or Durkon to have any sympathy when V abandons them in the name of Magical Research. If the Order is to be fully reunited, V needs to have a Rambo moment and break down about this stuff.

Kaytara
2009-01-18, 07:19 AM
Holy crap! I just figured out why V killed Kubota!

Of course! V would need to reaffirm V's power! And what better way to do so than Disintegrate the perceived villain!

The irony here is that maybe if Elan had found some way to reassure V V's magic was useful at THAT POINT, V might have an epiphany...

Yep, that's the way I saw it as well. Vaarsuvius is so utterly starved for being able to solve a problem with magic that he jumps at the chance to just disintegrate the distraction out of the way.

The giant devil fight too. Vaarsuvius needed to be the sole person capable of defeating that threat and his magic needed to be crucial to the task. (It probably was, since the others wouldn't have been able to kill the devil before it killed them, but this explains why V was a bit bitchy about it then.)

Raging Gene Ray
2009-01-18, 07:56 AM
Finally, we understand why V is growing so obsessed! Those commoners started demanding some spellcasting and addressed him/her as Elf! We all know how much that chafes V's raisins...and the worst part is...the soldiers died before V could get the last word in on those intellectually inferior humans!

In all seriousness, I really do agree with whoever said earlier that V was likely feeling a confusing mishmash of pride and compassion (probably similar to the one's that Paladins feel).

V's epiphany is probably going to involve deciding which of those emotions is more important to him/her.

Selene
2009-01-18, 08:50 AM
And the memory of not winning haunts V for the rest of his life...

Fredthefighter
2009-01-18, 08:51 AM
And the memory of not winning haunts V for the rest of his life...

Correctomundo

Shatteredtower
2009-01-18, 09:20 AM
Those criticizing the deserters for dropping their weapons might be interested to know that they might simply have been victimised by the rules. From the PHB's glossary entry for a panicked condition:


A panicked creature must drop everything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path.


Yes, but that would likely leave V with no way to escape from the front lines.

True, and I don't disagree with the rest of what you've written. This is more a matter of not actually having done everything possible for the defenders with the spells at hand before having to flee. That would have severely reduced V's chances of surviving the day, especially if the mob encounter still took place (even a few extra rounds wouldn't help then), but the point is that there was one last defensive option.

Taekwondodo
2009-01-18, 09:40 AM
V may have only woken up after the NPC said V's magic was useless but that is what happens in a dream, usually don't wake up till it is finished, so (s)he may be stung by the thought that (s)he's no good but also traumatised by the fact (s)he could not do anything.

Shatteredtower
2009-01-18, 09:50 AM
(Would have put this in an earlier post if my system didn't limit post size as much.)


IT! IS! NOT! A! DREAM! :smallfurious:

According to 3.5 rules, it is a dream. From pg 15 of the PHB:


While meditating, an elf dreams, those these dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice.

Perhaps it is a memory, but it could as easily be V's interpretation of past events, exaggerating failure and personal involvement.

Either way, it's still a dream by the rules.

hamishspence
2009-01-18, 09:55 AM
Whether drow trance or not has tended to oscillate back and forth depending on the writer, and on theory holds that some do, some don't (in 4th ed, they all do)

"drow do not dream" was a plot point in Elaine Cunningham's Starlight & Shadows.

Elves, however, dream as well as trance.

Given the "sorting out the memories" and "mental exercises" themes, I think the intent is that elven dreams are always what actually happened.

Kaytara
2009-01-18, 10:02 AM
Yeah... I suppose you could call it a dream, but that doesn't mean it was imaginary. If I'm not mistaken, the deal with elves is that they can only "dream" of things that actually happened to them, i.e. memories. So that implies that the scene in Azure City happened pretty much exactly the way we've seen it in this comic.

HOLEkevin
2009-01-18, 10:23 AM
That was a crappy memory!

Still, I'm not sure that "trancing" is supposed to be a taxing mental activity. I'm pretty sure it's the opposite. Something restful and relaxing to allow yourself to recuperate.

I am sure nothing good can come of this…

DwarvenExodus
2009-01-18, 10:24 AM
This has been my favourite comic for a long, long time.

Honestly, the Theives Guild Plot got a bit stale, I mean it was basically all killing.

MickJay
2009-01-18, 10:38 AM
I know V's memory can be interpreted as somewhat redeeming (but only if it's assumed the shock was from not being able to save lives; it could well have been the realisation that he's still not all-powerful), but I wouldn't go that far to say it shows V's definitely not evil. Everything that's happened until now suggests to me that V is neutral, with hints of evil from time to time (egoistic, self-centered, kills people when it's convenient, helps others to prove how mighty he is). Both neutral and evil people can perform good acts from time to time. Just because V had a reason to behave in an evil manner does not make it less evil; doing good things for selfish reasons is as neutral as it can get.

For me V's still neutral bordering on evil, in his current state he can really move in any direction..

Kgw
2009-01-18, 10:49 AM
Oh, after reading this strip I have some probable V's four words:
I am not useless!

Quartermoon
2009-01-18, 12:09 PM
So glad to see what torture has been causing Vaarsuvius to lose herself so thoroughly. I hope we are in for some depth of storytelling involving my favorite character!

Lord Seth
2009-01-18, 12:28 PM
While it was foolish of the soldiers to throw away their weapons (unless that gained them a movement category, which is possible), they were doomed. Massively outnumbered ("there are so many of them"), and hobgoblins with standard equipment have a 30' speed, so they couldn't even outrun them. And if they'd made it to the caves - Hobs have darkvision, so the soldiers would have been even worse off.That assumes that the hobgoblins were going after those soldiers in particular; I'm unsure about that. I think they were just marching through trying to kill any soldiers they came across. Had they kept running rather than stopping, they might have made it.

Andre Fairchilde
2009-01-18, 12:31 PM
To me it seems that V has gone from being so powerful, to being so ineffectual has wracked him with guilt and self-loathing; thus the overcompensating obsession with the main quest.

I don't think the Imp is going to get anywhere with V.

Traker
2009-01-18, 12:31 PM
"Plot holes for Dummies" laughs "that is really funny".

Hallavast
2009-01-18, 12:32 PM
Oh Giant, how art thou a clever practitioner of smartassery. Let me count the ways...

David Argall
2009-01-18, 12:37 PM
If those guards fled before V did, how did she end up there? (I'm assuming they were present when V withdrew due to their position).

Among other possibilities is that these guards did not flee before V did. Troops rarely flee en mass. Some run before there is any danger at all. Some never do, and at each point in between, somebody runs. A particular chance here is that these troops were a reserve on the line when the attack hit, and saw the line fall apart. They then fled, a good length of time after V had. Since they are running while V was merely double moving, they eventually caught up with V.

Holammer
2009-01-18, 12:56 PM
Awright! V haven't turned into a Lich or Baelnorn... Yet!
I still suspect that Qarr will work towards corrupting V with the usual promises of power. I don't see any other reason for him to tail V.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-18, 01:49 PM
That is a good point, David. I assumed V was running as well after turning invisible due to the amunt of danger s/he was in at the time.

Rotipher
2009-01-18, 02:30 PM
He still had the power,he simply needed to tell them that he can't do anything instead of staying silent.


And knowing that ve could have helped them that way, had ve dared to risk speaking aloud, will have left V feeling even worse! Not to mention that if V had avoided being bumped into, in the first place, they would have kept on running.

Lacking magic, even V's mundane abilities of speech and avoidance had been rendered useless, due to that failure of courage. The fact that the soldiers were pretty stupid to linger there, demanding help, wouldn't ease V's guilt: to a person as brilliant as V, other people's stupidity is a given, and it's vir duty to compensate for their intellectual lapses. But this time, V didn't have the nerve to try, and thus became doubly useless.

Lupy
2009-01-18, 02:49 PM
Ah V... Poor, poor V. I feel so bad for V now...

Nerdanel
2009-01-18, 04:45 PM
I for one am interested in hearing about how the plot hole about V not being visibly wounded by the pit fiend's claws is solved now that the only explanation I could think of that made even some sense is pretty much debunked. (Or is it? Sigh. I still don't have any better ideas.)

Squall83
2009-01-18, 04:51 PM
It isn't. V is using the fact that she'll be awake all 8 hours of her rest period if she doesn't trance as an excuse to tell herself it's more efficient not to trance, in order to avoid reliving the memory we just witnessed.

Incidentally, something you may not be aware of, even if she tranced, she has to rest for a full 8 hours to replenish her spells. When she trances that just means she ends up having to rest while awake for 4 hours in addition to the trance period. So either way, time spent resting for spell preparation is not the issue, just the amount of time she's conscious.

Zevox
Thanks for the answers on page 5, SteveMB and Zevox. I hope V gets over the shock soon. I wonder if it will be of any use to learn how to find plot holes. Maybe s/he can close some of them in a way that will be favorable for hir.

The_Firenail
2009-01-18, 04:58 PM
Wow, that was pretty sad, but at least there was finally another scene at Azure City.

C'mon Burlew, Give us a break. I found the 7th panel rather insulting, even though they're not even pagen gods. (The Year of The Ox is coming up, you know!)

Zordrath
2009-01-18, 05:15 PM
For a moment, I was hoping we were back at AC with Xykon, RC, the MitD and O-Chul... :smallannoyed:

Still a great comic, it sheds some more light on V's motivations for his recent actions. I'm looking forward to Quarr's next move now...

Boogastreehouse
2009-01-18, 05:56 PM
C'mon Burlew, Give us a break. I found the 7th panel rather insulting, even though they're not even pagen gods. (The Year of The Ox is coming up, you know!)

I am unsure of what you could reasonably be upset by here. Are you upset because the evil Hobgoblins insulted the southern religion? That's the sort of thing I would expect an evil character to do. Or maybe even a foolish good character, for that matter, who hadn't yet had the opportunity to learn about the culture he was insulting.

Are all fictional characters supposed to respect and praise each-other's beliefs? How is that realistic?

Wanton Soup
2009-01-18, 06:02 PM
I must say, I'm a bit suprised that V would read anything labled as "for dummies". I wouldn't think he/she would read anything less then "Finding Plot-Holes for geniuses" or something. :smallamused:

Nice comic, though.

Uh, that was the point. Something so mind-numbingly pointless that there is no mental activity stimulated at all.

Or, in other words "x for dummies".

PS That V, eh. Definitely doing a Raistlin, ain't he. Thinking of the people who died because he didn't have enough spells. JUST what a CE person would do, isn't it...

Wanton Soup
2009-01-18, 06:05 PM
Edit: Also, I don't believe that most people above missed the point so completely. V didn't give a damn about these soldiers - the only thing that bothered her was that last comment, how her magic was so useless.

Then why start with them asking for help? For almost the entire strip.

Because they died rather than run on away from the Goblins because they thought V would save them.

Wanton Soup
2009-01-18, 06:12 PM
Qarr wanted to get on the ship to meet with V. Since V has left the ship Qarr has no interest in getting onto the ship.
This is why he talks about opportunity when V comes flying by.

Cart before horse. We don't know where Quarr wants to go and we don't know why he talks about opportunity when V flies by. It can as easily be explained by Quarr using Alter Self to seem like V.

Wanton Soup
2009-01-18, 06:17 PM
Actually, in a situation like that, with mobs of weak enemies, Sorcs are better than Wizards, since they have way more spells. Wizards are better in most DnD games because they're allowed to rest when the need to.

How many spells does a 20th Level Wizard have to cast? I think it's more. Sorcerers can choose on the fly which ones they cast (as I put towards one of the WoTC boards, you never hear Gandalf say "Oh bug ger. I knew I should've learned 'Knock' today...").

For example, a Sorcerer can case lightning or fireball as the occasion demanded. But if a fireball-learning Wizzard comes up against a fire-immune demon (vulnerable to lightning) they're stuffed.

Kish
2009-01-18, 06:39 PM
How many spells does a 20th Level Wizard have to cast? I think it's more.
A level 20 wizard can cast fewer spells per day than a level 20 sorcerer, but chooses them from a bigger list. :smallconfused: I'm not entirely clear on which of those is the answer to your question.

tribble
2009-01-18, 06:39 PM
holy quadruple post batman! i'd like to introduce you to something calleed an edit button.

I'm feeling quite vindicated at the people who were stating that "V does not care about haley or anyone else" right now.

Wanton Soup
2009-01-18, 06:45 PM
A level 20 wizard can cast fewer spells per day than a level 20 sorcerer, but chooses them from a bigger list. :smallconfused: I'm not entirely clear on which of those is the answer to your question.

OK, maybe it was a change from when I did AD&D.


"holy quadruple post batman! i'd like to introduce you to something calleed an edit button."

a) use it yourself. Called. Not calleed.

And if that's going to be what multiple posting is going to be here (it isn't the blogger definition), how about making adding quotes and other messages easier to add? That's why this isn't in HTML, isn't it? To make it easier...

Nevrmore
2009-01-18, 06:56 PM
"holy quadruple post batman! i'd like to introduce you to something calleed an edit button."

a) use it yourself. Called. Not calleed.
Because the guy who showed a complete ignorance to basic forum functionality and posted four times in a row when a simple double-post is considered an embarrassing mistake has so much room to call someone else stupid for a simple typo.

EDIT: Edit button! Fancy that.

LuisDantas
2009-01-18, 07:21 PM
Still, I'm not sure that "trancing" is supposed to be a taxing mental activity. I'm pretty sure it's the opposite. Something restful and relaxing to allow yourself to recuperate.

You're correct, and the strip didn't imply otherwise. Vaarsuvius isn't avoiding trancing because it is in itself a taxing mental activity, but rather because ve keeps getting flashbacks to that stressful moment when he trances.

He doesn't quite have it to accept and resolve that stress, so he keeps avoiding the memory. Hence the need to find some other way of resting.


I am sure nothing good can come of this…

So far that has been true. I think that's about to change, however.

holywhippet
2009-01-18, 07:41 PM
Clarification.

IT WAS NOT A DREAM!

You know when V use his/her last spell to invis him/herself to get out of the city and ends up on the boat. That was on the way to the boat. Having used up all her spells, she couldn't help the soldiers running away. It was a memory of that.

If it was full on memory rather than a dream, than this strip is a full blown plothole by itself. Go reread strip 452, the cowardly (or smart) guards run away before V casts invisibility. The remaining guards stand their ground and get massacred. This guards in this strip cannot exist in either group - the ones who ran have a head start on V. The others are all dead so it can't be them either. That leaves other soldiers who are busy running - but V was on the very front lines near the wall. Thus nobody should be coming up from behind. On top of that, none of the other soldiers would have seen V cast invisibility so they wouldn't have assumed it was V they ran into.

V is now suffering from a variant of survivors guilt. Regular survivors guilt has the victim wondering why they lived when everyone else died. V knows or at least believes he/she knows why it happened. It was simply because V wasn't strong enough as a wizard - too much time spent fighting a petty war against Belkar meant not enough time studying the powers of the arcane. This isn't entirely true or untrue. The right combination of spells might have changed the course of the battle - however many of the factors of defeat, especially Miko making the castle go boom, were beyond control.

Shatteredtower
2009-01-18, 07:53 PM
Given the "sorting out the memories" and "mental exercises" themes, I think the intent is that elven dreams are always what actually happened.

There is no mention of sorting out memories in the core rules. Races of the Wild suggests the possibility, but drawing up a random memory hardly seems worthy to be called an exercise -- especially for someone over a century old that keeps revisiting the exact same scene from a few months back, clearly remembered all too well without such assistance.

Squall83
2009-01-18, 09:05 PM
If it was full on memory rather than a dream, than this strip is a full blown plothole by itself. Go reread strip 452, the cowardly (or smart) guards run away before V casts invisibility. The remaining guards stand their ground and get massacred. This guards in this strip cannot exist in either group - the ones who ran have a head start on V. The others are all dead so it can't be them either. That leaves other soldiers who are busy running - but V was on the very front lines near the wall. Thus nobody should be coming up from behind. On top of that, none of the other soldiers would have seen V cast invisibility so they wouldn't have assumed it was V they ran into.
There might be one explanation: Expeditous Retreat
V did cast it when s/he fought the elementals: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0424.html
Since V can cast Level 6 spells like disintegrate, s/he is at least Level 12 and the spells duration is 1 minute per level.
I am assuming that the whole battle didn't take a lot of time even though lots of strips were used for it, mainly because there were so many different things that happened at the same time.

If V would still have 30 feet Bonus movement, s/he could have caught up with the fleeing soldiers and at no time it is definitely indicated that V was ahead of them to begin with. Maybe the spell wore of during V's flight and V overtook them but the others caught up with hir again.

What I don't understand is:
Why didn't V say something like "no spells left, RUN!"? Was s/he already in shock? And why didn't s/he continue to run? (Ok, maybe because of being out of breath and a bad constitution check.)

Zevox
2009-01-18, 09:11 PM
(as I put towards one of the WoTC boards, you never hear Gandalf say "Oh bug ger. I knew I should've learned 'Knock' today...").
That's because Tolkien's stories do not operate under D&D rules. In fact, magic is the area where D&D and Tolkien's mythos are the least compatible. They simple share almost nothing in common in that area.

As for the Wizard vs Sorcerer matter, Wizards get more flexibility in spell selection, but cast fewer spells per day than a Sorcerer and cannot change their spells once they've been memorized (they're also much better at crafting magic items, since they get more feats and a much larger range of spells they can prepare than Sorcerers). Sorcerers get more spells per day and on-the-fly selection of them, but only get a very limited variety to choose from. Given the chance to prepare for any given fight, a Wizard will be better equipped to deal with things; and even without that, they're usually smart enough to prepare a variety of spells to cover their possible needs for the day. For sheer quantity of destructive power, though, they'll always be outclassed by Sorcerers.

Zevox

dogmac
2009-01-18, 09:41 PM
Oh dear, V. I'm glad that you are having these nightmares. I don't know that the punishment you have inflicted upon yourself isn't too extreme, though.

derfenrirwolv
2009-01-18, 09:47 PM
Go reread strip 452, the cowardly (or smart)

I'm going to go with smart. The girl had a point. WHY am i going to stand here and face certain death for nobles sipping saki on their junks? Screw. That.



the ones who ran have a head start on V.

Which V's expeditious retreat and lack of heavy armor could easily overcome.
As to how they smacked into him, V may not know the most direct route through the city , and may have had to make a left or right turn at some point.


On top of that, none of the other soldiers would have seen V cast invisibility so they wouldn't have assumed it was V they ran into.

No, but they did see him cast 15 other spells, and wizards are apparently common enough that people are generally more aware of their more common spells. Bumping into something invisible and concluding "Hey! its our wizard!" isn't that big of a leap.

Warren Dew
2009-01-18, 09:54 PM
C'mon Burlew, Give us a break. I found the 7th panel rather insulting, even though they're not even pagen gods. (The Year of The Ox is coming up, you know!)

I'm pretty sure hobgoblins fully intend the insulting tone towards the Southern gods. I don't think it's reasonable to assume the author agrees, however.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-18, 10:10 PM
A level 20 wizard is arguable alot more powerful then a Sorceror if it taken 5 levels of Archmage from lvl 15, then it could in theory be able to change element types, size/area of effect of spells and all sorts of nifty stuff that I wish NWN2 had implemented.

Kish
2009-01-18, 10:33 PM
OK, maybe it was a change from when I did AD&D.
Sorcerers weren't in AD&D. A wizard has had fewer spells per day than a sorcerer ever since sorcerers were introduced in D&D 3.0.

A wizard who takes five levels of Archmage from level 15 is a wizard/archmage, not a pure wizard. However, I'd say a pure wizard of level 20 is, in most situations more powerful than a level 20 sorcerer.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-18, 10:43 PM
I was speaking colloquially speaking.

Quorothorn
2009-01-18, 10:48 PM
Yes, yes he would. About anything that would provide him any minute amount of amusement to lie about. And you and I both know that was a joke anyway.

True dat. We should surely all follow his proud example.


I didn't, actually, but I'm glad someone threw today's strip in there as an example.

It never ceases to amaze me, this Internet.


To be fair, redcloak is still evil, and he cares (for the most part) about Goblins (not that I'm saying V is evil, but I tend to think that it's possible to care about others while being evil). To be fair, I found the soldier's comment ironic considering how much good AC's own spellcasters did (especially the High Priest).

Hey, after all, Mr. Burlew is the one who wrote stuff like this (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html). I think we can safely assume that pinging Evil does not mean you have no capacity for love and even compassion. Sure, some Evil people apparently have little to nothing in that area (Sauron, Darth Sidious, our own Xykon...), but that's not true for all.

And I'm totally with you on AC's spellcasters' effect on the battle. The entire force of clerics, aside from some undoubtedly-invaluable front-line healing, basically...slowed down Redcloak for half a minute, and we never saw that high wizard guy (or apprentices) at all (out with the fleet, presumably?).

David Argall
2009-01-19, 01:40 AM
Cart before horse. We don't know where Quarr wants to go and we don't know why he talks about opportunity when V flies by. It can as easily be explained by Quarr using Alter Self to seem like V.
Does not work. If V is leaving the ship for a long time, "her" return to the ship will raise questions that Qarr can't answer. If V is coming back soon, Qarr would be in the interesting situation of there being two V's. Either way, Qarr would not want to pretend to be V.



If it was full on memory rather than a dream, than this strip is a full blown plothole by itself. Go reread strip 452, the cowardly (or smart) guards run away before V casts invisibility. The remaining guards stand their ground and get massacred. This guards in this strip cannot exist in either group

Depending on circumstances, the guards in 623 can be in either.
Not being in heavy armor, V can outrun the guards who got a head start on him. However, this does not mean he follows the best path, and so she may pass the guards, go down a blind alley, turn around, and be involved in a collision with a fleeing guard.

After V flees, there is no reason we have to assume the defending guards died to the last man. In fact, we would expect some to escape and flee. One particular way this can happen is that the defenders might have used the common tactic of having a force in reserve, intending for a counter charge to break the spirit of the charge when it has already been slowed by the front line. Unfortunately the front line fell apart too fast for the reserve to attack, and so they flee instead. Again, we can assume V got lost in a city she had spent little time in, wandered in somewhat random direction, and so he can run into a soldier fleeing.


none of the other soldiers would have seen V cast invisibility so they wouldn't have assumed it was V they ran into.
Invisibility is a quite famous spell, and even if they did not see it cast, even a common soldier would know that wizards cast that spell. It is, granted, a great leap that this is V who is invisible, but it is not an idea that is impossible to come up with.

factotum
2009-01-19, 01:55 AM
Cart before horse. We don't know where Quarr wants to go and we don't know why he talks about opportunity when V flies by. It can as easily be explained by Quarr using Alter Self to seem like V.

Check the last panel of strip #599 again. The blue movement lines clearly show that Qarr is FOLLOWING V. If he just intended to disguise himself as V to get aboard the boats, why would he fly in the opposite direction to them? Doesn't make any sense.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-19, 02:05 AM
Were you refering to Teleporter Wizard, Quorothorn? If you were, I don;t think he was ever raised due to the High Priest using the Ressurrection spell which was needed to bring him back attempting to revive Shojo, and after that everyone was more concerned with planning for the battle. To be fair, the Diviner (I forgot her name) could have played a major part in the battle due to being at least level 11, but she got killed before she could do much. I'm still trying to figure out why most of the casters were put out of the way considering how much use they were on the 2nd wall.

Wanton Soup
2009-01-19, 04:28 AM
Sorcerers weren't in AD&D. A wizard has had fewer spells per day than a sorcerer ever since sorcerers were introduced in D&D 3.0.

A wizard who takes five levels of Archmage from level 15 is a wizard/archmage, not a pure wizard. However, I'd say a pure wizard of level 20 is, in most situations more powerful than a level 20 sorcerer.

Maybe that was a Dragon supplement or it could be a confusion about what happens after 1st level. A wizard gets the higher level spells one level earlier.


Mind you I could've sworn at 20th level a wizard got 9 1st level and a 20th level sorcerer got 6, but maybe that's another misremember.


"Check the last panel of strip #599 again. The blue movement lines clearly show that Qarr is FOLLOWING V. If he just intended to disguise himself as V to get aboard the boats, why would he fly in the opposite direction to them? Doesn't make any sense."


They do? Clearly? Well that's going to be hard to show a 3D movement vector in a 2D display space, isn't it.

What if Quarr wants to make sure that V isn't coming back?

What if Quarr wants to get a better view of V so as to make the illusion better?

What if Quarr wanted to follow V and talk to him but found out he wasn't with Hinjo any more and, that being his lords object for murder, turns back off page?

etc.

And David, "he" used to be the neuter form. There was a male form and a female form. He is quite acceptable in an unknown (or irrelevant) context.

E.g. what do you call a plant? HimAndHer? What about the 20-odd differentiated sexual genders in the human race?

Him works as long as you aren't over-sensitive to "men. think they own the world".

Dr. Simon
2009-01-19, 04:45 AM
Mind you I could've sworn at 20th level a wizard got 9 1st level and a 20th level sorcerer got 6, but maybe that's another misremember.

Since I'm currently proofreading the next Lazy GM book I happen to have the numbers right here.

A 20th level Sorcerer can cast 6 1st level spells per day. They *know* 9 1st level spells, but can only *ever* know 9.

A 20th level wizard can cast 4 1st level spells per day, but they can prepare these from a number only limited by how many they've been able to copy into their spellbook over the years. They start play with at least 5 (4, plus 1 per Intelligence bonus, of which you are going to have at least +1 if you want to play a Wizard who can actually *cast* spells.

Here endeth the lesson in 3.5 mechanics!

(Not quite - add 1 to those numbers if the character has a casting ability scopre (Int or Cha) of 12 or more. Which they probably will have.)

Maxdibe
2009-01-19, 04:51 AM
...I just feel that there are too many opened sub-plots (Roy is dead, Haley and Celia trying to resurrect him, Belkar back to his new life but with the death coming within a year, V alone (what about Qarr?) in an island, Elan and Durkon somewhere in the ocean...) and, like V, I think that there must be a hole somewhere or a way to make all these sub-plots collapse.

We only have to wait and see...