V and trancing

[bue52]

I am not too sure, but I always thought that trancing was not sleeping, so is this a specific Oots universe thing that allows trancing to have dreams or has it always been as such.

[hamishspence]

As I recall, in D&D novels, trancing involves reviewing past memories and generally thinking about things.

If there are no "impossible" things in V's trance, it would fit quite well.

[Morty]

I don't think it's ever been made sure how exactly does trancing differ from sleeping. So V having dreams when trancing isn't much of a stretch.

[Spoomeister]

Theory 1: Yes, trance = concentrate on a specific thought, but she doesn't like the thought she keeps coming back to. The effect is essentially equivalent to a dream.

Theory 2: V is *trying* to regain spells.

Technically to do that, she needs to trance.

However, she's so exhausted, she shoots straight past "trance" and into "REM sleep". (Having tried to meditate when I was going on 3 or 4 hours of sleep a night for weeks, I know what this is like.)

So she doesn't dare trance because she doesn't want to sleep. Hence trying to find something that will technically be restful enough to regain spells but won't let her sleep and thus confront her problems / fears.

[SPoD]

Theory 2: V is *trying* to regain spells.

Technically to do that, she needs to trance.

However, she's so exhausted, she shoots straight past "trance" and into "REM sleep". (Having tried to meditate when I was going on 3 or 4 hours of sleep a night for weeks, I know what this is like.)

So she doesn't dare trance because she doesn't want to sleep. Hence trying to find something that will technically be restful enough to regain spells but won't let her sleep and thus confront her problems / fears.

Elves are physically incapable of sleeping in D&D; they only have knocked-out, trance, or fully-conscious. Even a Sleep spell cannot put an elf to sleep, their brains simply don't have that state as an option. So your Theory #2 is invalid.

[amuletts]

I always thought that 'trance' was just what elves called sleeping, but their brains don't quite work on the same wavelength as that of other races, therefore the differentiation.

[David Argall]

For D&D, trance = weird variety of sleep is pretty much the rule. Nobody has really paid much attention to the differences beyond those stated in the rules.

[hamishspence]

depending on the novel, the difference will come up (Elaine Cunningham- the half-elf is masquerading as an elf, has a very good magical mask to cover up the fact that her eyes are closed, but one of the elves spots that she's sleeping rather than trancing.

in 3.5 PHB rules, it says that in trance "they dream, though their dreams are actually mental exercises"

[gamerboy6000]

During trancing you are generally aware of what's around you, but reviewing a memory is possible (for 4th, at least)

[JaxGaret]

Trancing is simply the elves' version of sleep, or more accurately their replacement for sleep. Rather than being a state in which the subconscious mind takes complete control, as in human sleep, the elf trance is essentially a deep meditative state. They are still aware of their surroundings, but they are reviewing and organizing their past memories, which is what many scientists theorize is what is happening during REM sleep, or the dreaming state, in humans.

V is stuck on a single traumatic memory, which he can't stop trancing about.

[good_lookin_gus]

V is stuck on a single traumatic memory, which he can't stop trancing about.

This would provide supplementary incentive for V's refusal to trance. It also goes a little further in explaining V's descent into madness.

I haven't read too much about the nature of trancing, but I remember that it can either be the cataloging of important memories or mental exercises. This appears to be the former.

[Fitzclowningham]

If V is just figuring this out now, that means s/he has been going this whole time on one daily allotment of spells. It's interesting, though, that s/he was shown to have used up every last spell in Azure City, and so must have tranced (because s/he didn't know about the plot hole until now) at least once after the battle. Very curious.

[good_lookin_gus]

V's been regaining spells because of resting; just not trancing.

[Fitzclowningham]

Ok, I'm slow. I thought the plot hole was substituting resting for trancing. V's just emptying hir mind by acting like a forum member. lol

[Optimystik]

As hamish mentioned, trancing was a notable plot point in Elaine Cunningham's novel Silver Shadows, where half-elf Arilyn Moonblade had to infiltrate a wood elf settlement. In order to fake trancing yet allow her to still sleep, she was given a mask that covered her face and made her eyes appear to be open. She would then sit upright facing the door so that any elves that peeked in would see she was "trancing" and not disturb her (interrupting a trance was considered to be very rude and only done in emergencies.)

The elves that tranced while she was there would typically wander around the village with their eyes open. They were fully aware of their surroundings (She saw them step around shrubs and the like) and could remember details of what went on around them during their meditation - one elf knew that she was observing him upon "waking." The leader of the elven settlement used his trance to review the battles they had been through that day so that he could plan strategy when awake. For elves, trancing seems to be less like sleep, where a human mind cobbles all sorts of odds and ends together to form a fantasy, and more like reviewing a recording or backing up a hard drive at the end of the day.

This fits quite well with what Vaarsuvius is experiencing; while it's typical for traumatized humans to relive bad memories, V's elven mind is replaying every single detail of his failure every time he loses focus and starts trancing involuntarily. I liken it to Moghedien from the Wheel of Time when she was placed in the replay chamber (vacuole) as punishment for her failure; the difference here is that V is punishing himself.

[Firewind]

It's physically impossible to remain sat upright without support during Deep Sleep (the type of sleep where your brain is actually resting and you are unaware of your surroundings) and it's also highly unlikely that the body can maintain muscle tension during REM sleep (where dream and have some awareness of your surroundings)

If trancing replaces Deep Sleep then it's not farfetched to assume that elves may lie down during a trance and "sleep" if only by appearence.

It's also worth noting that the Raced of the Wild splatbook seems to imply that trancing by meditation and trancing by lying down and "sleeping" are the same thing to Elves. An elf is also described as climbing out of bed at one point.

If you look at how V suddenly sat bolt upright it wouldn't really be crazy to assume that he/she was "sleeping" in the sense that he/she was trancing while laying down to rest.

[magic9mushroom]

V's problem is that trancing is so well ingrained that it's mostly involuntary. Hence, during trance, she reviews the memories that her subconscious considered the most important, rather than the ones she wants to review. And she can't stand the fact that she left all those people to die back in 452. So this is the other half of the reason that she hasn't tranced for 6 months.

It makes sense that she's survived without getting back spells many times, after all, she was researching a spell for most of that time.

[JaxGaret]

As hamish mentioned, trancing was a notable plot point in Elaine Cunningham's novel Silver Shadows, where half-elf Arilyn Moonblade had to infiltrate a wood elf settlement. In order to fake trancing yet allow her to still sleep, she was given a mask that covered her face and made her eyes appear to be open. She would then sit upright facing the door so that any elves that peeked in would see she was "trancing" and not disturb her (interrupting a trance was considered to be very rude and only done in emergencies.)

That's odd, since it's canonical in D&D 3.5e for Half-Elves to trance just like Elves. I guess the author just got it wrong, or wrote that book before PHB II was published.

[hamishspence]

Book was written in 1996. Anyway, while 3.5 PHB mentions half-elven immunity to sleep spells, it doesn't specifically mention trancing in the half-elf description, only the elf one.

[Rotipher]

IIRC, there's a scene in one of those little "generic 3E" D&D books -- the ones with the iconic characters -- where Mialee is lying in bed at an inn, sorely regretting that she can't sleep. Why? Because she's got a hangover, and can't snooze her way through it like a human might. :smallwink:

[Optimystik]

D&D Insider on Eladrin (4E elves, IIRC): http://ww2.wizards.com/dnd/insider/race.aspx?id=3

Trance: Rather than sleep, eladrin enter a meditative state known as trance. You need to spend 4 hours in this state to gain the same benefits other races gain from taking a 6-hour extended rest. While in a trance, you are fully aware of your surroundings and notice approaching enemies and other events as normal."

From LotR, Legolas sleepwalked in Two Towers, Riders of Rohan chapter.

So the main difference between trancing and sleeping seems to be what you're aware of, and what form your dreams take. For trancers, verbatim replay of a past event (and in V's case, one that weighs heavily on your mind); for sleepers, the odd combination of vivid hallucinations, randomness and oblivion that make dreams.


That's odd, since it's canonical in D&D 3.5e for Half-Elves to trance just like Elves. I guess the author just got it wrong, or wrote that book before PHB II was published.

They're immune to sleep effects like their parent, but can still voluntarily sleep and even dream. Numerous novels depict this.

[hamishspence]

And since Trance isn't mentioned, to Rest they need the full 8 hours, unlike elves, who, unless they are spellcasters, can make do with 4.

(arcane spellcasters still need 8 hours rest, including any trancing time, to recover spells).

[Aris Katsaris]

From LotR, Legolas sleepwalked in Two Towers, Riders of Rohan chapter.


Let me provide the quote: "Only Legolas still stepped as lightly as ever, his feet hardly seeming to press the grass, leaving no footprints as he passed; [...], and he could sleep, if sleep it could be called by Men, resting his mind in the strange paths of elvish dreams, even as he walked open-eyed in the light of this world"

Throughout that chapter, Aragorn and Gimli always wake up to find him risen. To provide another quote: "Aragorn and Gimli slept fitfully, and whenever they awoke they saw Legolas standing beside them, or walking to and fro, singing softly to himself in his own tongue [...]"

However in other times (e.g. Chapter 6 - The King of the Golden Hall) we're told explicitly that Legolas slept, so it may be that the trance Legolas used during the pursue of the Orcs was just a matter of wanting to stay awake or atleast semi-awake throughout the pursue and that he could sleep normally in other times.

[Demented]

I've read that dolphins 'sleep' only half a brain at a time. Thus, they can always swim, though perhaps not vigorously. Legolas probably did the same. (Checking wikipedia, they can sleep normally too. Legolas is half dolphin after all!)

[Evil DM Mark3]

The PHB says somthing along the lines of "elven dreams are mental exercises that have become reflexive over the years". There is nothing to say that this would not focus on past experiences.

[Optimystik]

The PHB says somthing along the lines of "elven dreams are mental exercises that have become reflexive over the years". There is nothing to say that this would not focus on past experiences.

Is anyone saying they don't? Clearly V is dwelling on his past experience, i.e. leaving Azurian soldiers to die.

[JaxGaret]

They're immune to sleep effects like their parent, but can still voluntarily sleep and even dream. Numerous novels depict this.

So Half-Elves in the novels can choose to trance or sleep at their discretion? Interesting.

I've never read the novels.

[LeslieR]

From what I remember of my 2nd ed. AD&D 'Complete Book of Elves' Elves don't Need sleep (I don't recall if it said they Can't sleep) because they instead rest their minds through something they call the Reverie, basically they just relax and re-play old memories. I wonder if 'Trancing' is just the new 3rd ed. word (or just the non-elvish word) for the Reverie?

[Evil DM Mark3]

Is anyone saying they don't? Clearly V is dwelling on his past experience, i.e. leaving Azurian soldiers to die.There has to be a name for this type of post, one rebuts your point with the same point.

[Optimystik]

So Half-Elves in the novels can choose to trance or sleep at their discretion? Interesting.

I've never read the novels.

Not exactly. They can't trance, but neither can they be forced to sleep via magic, concoction, psionic, etc.


There has to be a name for this type of post, one rebuts your point with the same point.

Eh? You said "there is nothing to say that this (i.e. trancing) would not focus on past experiences," and I was merely asking why you thought that needed to be said since nobody's post that I could see was attempting to refute that.

[magic9mushroom]

Not exactly. They can't trance, but neither can they be forced to sleep via magic, concoction, psionic, etc.

That raises an interesting point. If a half-elf is insomniac, would a sleeping potion work?

[hamishspence]

Don't think it would, just like an intelligent golem couldn't lower its immunity to receive a beneficial spell.

And yes, I think Trance is the 3.5 name for Reverie.

[Scarlet Knight]

:vaarsuvius: "I have a dream! That someday, little brown stick figures, and little wight stick figures will be judged, not by the color of their speech bubbles, but by the contents of their haversacks!"

Happy MLK Day! :smallsmile:

[Evil DM Mark3]

Eh? You said "there is nothing to say that this (i.e. trancing) would not focus on past experiences," and I was merely asking why you thought that needed to be said since nobody's post that I could see was attempting to refute that.The original post seemed to think it wouldn't. Kinda the point behind the thread...

[Wanderlust]

Pardon if this is semi-off topic, but I'd be interested in hearing how people RP trancing in D&D. I never knew there was so much to it, and I was confused when V was able to read a book while trancing to get spells back. This thread has helped me get a grasp for it, but also has confused a bit. I DM a 4E group and I'd love to hear how other people use this in their games.

Thanks

[Kaytara]

Pardon if this is semi-off topic, but I'd be interested in hearing how people RP trancing in D&D. I never knew there was so much to it, and I was confused when V was able to read a book while trancing to get spells back. This thread has helped me get a grasp for it, but also has confused a bit. I DM a 4E group and I'd love to hear how other people use this in their games.

Thanks

Can't answer the first question, seeing as I don't play DnD... As for the second, it's the joke. :smallwink: Vaarsuvius is able to read a book while resting to get spells back because he has genius-level intelligence and a book "for dummies" doesn't qualify as "mentally challenging" for him. :)

[Wanderlust]

Oh, I got the joke, I just didn't know it was possible! Good stuff.

[David Argall]

Pardon if this is semi-off topic, but I'd be interested in hearing how people RP trancing in D&D. I never knew there was so much to it, and I was confused when V was able to read a book while trancing to get spells back.

The basic rule is that if it is game useful, he can't do it. If it isn't, who cares?

[Kish]

Pardon if this is semi-off topic, but I'd be interested in hearing how people RP trancing in D&D. I never knew there was so much to it, and I was confused when V was able to read a book while trancing to get spells back.

Thanks
Vaarsuvius isn't trancing, that's the point.

[Optimystik]

The original post seemed to think it wouldn't. Kinda the point behind the thread...

The OP said "dreams," not specifically past experiences. I gathered the "point behind the thread," to be that the OP didn't know that elves saw anything while in reverie.

You seem to take umbrage when you're quoted, so I'll stop.


Pardon if this is semi-off topic, but I'd be interested in hearing how people RP trancing in D&D. I never knew there was so much to it, and I was confused when V was able to read a book while trancing to get spells back.

He's not trancing; the joke is that a "For Dummies" book is so mentally deficient as to allow him to empty his mind while staying awake.


This thread has helped me get a grasp for it, but also has confused a bit. I DM a 4E group and I'd love to hear how other people use this in their games.

Thanks

What part confused you? I'd be glad to assist, citing both Tolkien and Cunningham. :smallsmile: