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Estovus
2009-01-17, 05:20 PM
Howdy. I'll make this post short: I need a build that'll let me be a good Arcane spellcaster, while still letting me have as many skill points as possible. I'm fairly noobish, but I'm open to new source material. What would you say to a Rogue/Wizard?

imperialspectre
2009-01-17, 05:27 PM
Beguiler, possibly into Shadowcraft Mage in order to get hyper-real illusions. 6+INT skill points per Beguiler level, with trapfinding and all of the good rogue skills.

ETA: If you need a source, the Beguiler is in Player's Handbook II.

Crow
2009-01-17, 05:28 PM
Wizard should give you plenty if you pump up INT like I assume you'll want to do. You could pick human for an extra bit too. You don't miss out on any of the wizard spells that way.

kamikasei
2009-01-17, 05:30 PM
The simplest and probably best solution is to play a Beguiler, from the Player's Handbook 2. They're an int-based arcane caster with 6 base skill points per level, which means probably more skill points than a rogue. They're considered an excellent caster class, casting like a sorcerer but instead of having to choose a limited number of spells known they know their entire spell list at every level; the spell list is set but excellent, drawing mostly on illusion and enchantment but with many useful spells from other schools.

They're an excellent class.

You might also consider a Spellthief (Complete Arcane), or a variety of fiddly PrC-combo builds. It depends on what books you can draw from.

mostlyharmful
2009-01-17, 05:31 PM
Given you haven't started with Beguiler I assume you don't have all that many books to work from (knowing which you've got would be useful by the by), just core you can start with Wizard and PrC into Loremaster for a decent amount, I prefer that to rogue/wizard going into Arcance trickster because of the casting loss.

olentu
2009-01-17, 05:38 PM
The easiest method would be to be a beguiler as people have said.

If you have access to complete mage another possibility is the build Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 10 and perhaps finish up with Arcane Trickster or some other full casting prestige class with more then 4 skill points a level.

Unseen Seer has 6 skill points a level. Remember to take practiced spellcaster by level unseen seer level 3 to keep the up the caster level on your non divination spells.

Keld Denar
2009-01-17, 05:46 PM
Complete Mage has the Unseen Seer, a wonderfully fantastic blend of rogue and wizard. Fax is building one right now in another thread. I believe the build he's going for involves battle sorc, but you could do it with a wizard base for more int synergy. He's also using Spellwarped Sniper from Complete Scoundrel, which is a bit different.

Spelltheif1/Wizard4/USS10, taking the Master Spellthief feat from Complete Scoundrel would give you 14/15 spellcaster levels with a CL of 15. Finish off with 5 levels of Arcane Trickster from the DMG and you'll have 7d6 SA base, 19/20 spellcaster levels (9th level casting) with a CL of 20 (23 for divinations). Human race with Able Learner(RoDestiny) at level 1 allows you to keep all of your roguely skills up at a 1-1 skill point investment and avoid multiclass penalties, if your DM plays with them. Solid build, IMO. Pick up Hunter's Eye (Ranger2 spell, Spell Compendium) with your Unseen Seer Advanced Learning and you can cast it each round for +CL/3 extra dice of sneak attack, or spend an 8th level spell slot to Persist Spell (Complete Arcane) it as early as character level 16. With CL21, you'll get +7d6 SA, doubling your SA to 14d6 per hit. Keep your Use Magic Device skill maxed out and you'll be able to use a Bead of Karma (DMG, Strand of Prayer Beads) when you persist Hunter's Eye, giving you a rediculous CL of 27, for +9d6 SA, bringing your total to +16d6 at level 20.

But, thats way down the road. Early on, Rogue1/Wiz4 is pretty good. I'd go Focus Specialist Conjourer (lots of Orb spells to SA with) and get the Abrupt Jaunt Alt Class Feature from PHBII. Another nice one for early game longevity is the Acid Splatter reserve feat from Complete Mage. This will allow you to fling a couple d6s of acid around, which you can use to SA with, all day long. Up to you though.

If you want more details, just ask.

Estovus
2009-01-17, 05:54 PM
Hmm, what about I go Rogue 3/Wizard 3, then switch to either Beguiler or Unseen Seer? And if that works, which would you guys recommend?

AmberVael
2009-01-17, 05:58 PM
Hmm, what about I go Rogue 3/Wizard 3, then switch to either Beguiler or Unseen Seer? And if that works, which would you guys recommend?

Beguiler is a base class, so multiclassing from Rogue/Wizard to Beguiler would be extremely ineffective. If you want to go with Beguiler, start out with it rather than using other classes first.

If you want to go Unseen Seer, it would be more effective to go Wizard 3/Rogue 2, or even Wizard 4/Rogue 1.

Charlie Kemek
2009-01-17, 05:59 PM
Hmm, what about I go Rogue 3/Wizard 3, then switch to either Beguiler or Unseen Seer? And if that works, which would you guys recommend?

beguiler is a base class, so you probably don't want to do both. you would want just plain beguiler.

Edit: I just KNEW that there was a ninja there!

Keld Denar
2009-01-17, 06:02 PM
Its generally highly considered that casting is much much much much much much much greater than not casting. You can simulate almost anything you need 3 rogue levels for with the abilities you get from a whole extra level of spells (2 wizard levels).

The only thing you are really getting is Evasion, which, while handy, isn't SUPER great, especially considering your reflex save won't be super high due to the wizard levels and USS levels.

I'd go with less rogue, more wizard.

Also, beguiler would be an alternative to wizard. You probably don't want to start beguiler once you have wizard going, because then you pick up a new caster class instead of improving an existing one. In general, spells get more powerful geometrically as spell level goes up, thus having a couple really powerful high level spells is usually better than bunch of low level ones. If you use my build, you'll only ever be 1 level behind an arcane caster who takes only wizard levels, and your spells will be just as potent as his, thanks to the Master Spellthief feat. Almost all the benefits of being a rogue, at the cost of only 1 wizard level.

EDIT:
Spellthief from Complete Adventurer is a great alternative to Rogue to get your SA. At the cost of 8 skill points over the characters whole life, you get the ability to cast in light armor (which can be enchanted nicely), and the ability to siphon off spells from casters you hit and use them to power your own badassery. Even just making casters forget their spells is really useful. Either way, you'd probably have to sink a feat in Practiced Spellcaster or Master Spellthief, the latter of which is MUCH better than the former.

Estovus
2009-01-17, 06:07 PM
Beguiler is a base class, so multiclassing from Rogue/Wizard to Beguiler would be extremely ineffective. If you want to go with Beguiler, start out with it rather than using other classes first.

If you want to go Unseen Seer, it would be more effective to go Wizard 3/Rogue 2, or even Wizard 4/Rogue 1.

Heh, yeah, the problem is that I may have been trying to cover up my own downright slack-jawed stupidity. You see, the character is already made, and I am ashamed at the lack of planning on my part. So what we've got is a Rogue 3/Wizard 3, due to the fact that my parents apparently dropped me on my head. Repeatedly. With a baseball bat.

AmberVael
2009-01-17, 06:21 PM
Heh, yeah, the problem is that I may have been trying to cover up my own downright slack-jawed stupidity. You see, the character is already made, and I am ashamed at the lack of planning on my part. So what we've got is a Rogue 3/Wizard 3, due to the fact that my parents apparently dropped me on my head. Repeatedly. With a baseball bat.

Don't be so hard on yourself. You should have seen me when I first started getting heavily into character mechanics- I've been at this for quite some time now, and I still make some pretty big mistakes.

Anywho, if you're already Rogue 3/Wizard 3, then your best bet is to go into Unseen Seer on your next level, assuming you can meet the prerequisites.

Keld Denar
2009-01-17, 06:22 PM
Yea, thats kind of an issue. The PHB has rules for Rebuilding, but its pretty much only allowed with expressed DM's permission. Best of luck!

EDIT: You should be able to head into USS from that start, if you can't rebuild. That would still be good, just not optimal. You should do fine!

And nice Rammstein lyric in your sig. Cept you are missing the "d" and the end of "und".

Estovus
2009-01-17, 06:29 PM
Don't be so hard on yourself. You should have seen me when I first started getting heavily into character mechanics- I've been at this for quite some time now, and I still make some pretty big mistakes.

Anywho, if you're already Rogue 3/Wizard 3, then your best bet is to go into Unseen Seer on your next level, assuming you can meet the prerequisites.

Yeah, I'll look up the Unseen Seer once I've gone down to my nearest gaming store and legally purchased the PHB2.

monty
2009-01-17, 06:30 PM
Heh, yeah, the problem is that I may have been trying to cover up my own downright slack-jawed stupidity. You see, the character is already made, and I am ashamed at the lack of planning on my part. So what we've got is a Rogue 3/Wizard 3, due to the fact that my parents apparently dropped me on my head. Repeatedly. With a baseball bat.

You should've seen my first character. A bard/ranger with terrible feat choices. Thankfully, it was a one-day campaign, so I didn't have to live with that monstrosity for long.

Moral of the story: we all do stupid things.

Keld Denar
2009-01-17, 06:33 PM
Yeah, I'll look up the Unseen Seer once I've gone down to my nearest gaming store and legally purchased the PHB2.

USS is in Complete Mage, not PHBII...just so you don't waste your money. Not that PHBII is a waste of money...the Immediate Magic alt class features in there for specialist wizards are INSANE for conjourers.

Estovus
2009-01-17, 06:49 PM
USS is in Complete Mage, not PHBII...just so you don't waste your money. Not that PHBII is a waste of money...the Immediate Magic alt class features in there for specialist wizards are INSANE for conjourers.

PS, I'd edit your post to match mine...

Thanks, good thing I saw that before I wasted my money, as you say.

Edit? Why, what for? That... that typo? I'll edit that right away! :smalltongue:

AmberVael
2009-01-17, 07:24 PM
You should've seen my first character. A bard/ranger with terrible feat choices. Thankfully, it was a one-day campaign, so I didn't have to live with that monstrosity for long.

Moral of the story: we all do stupid things.

My first character was actually pretty good.
Possibly because I rolled three 18s for him. >.>

Crunch the Half Orc Barbarian was like a tiny level one god! :smalltongue:

Pie Guy
2009-01-17, 07:34 PM
Really, only three 18s? When I started playing I got a two twenties!

But that could be because I let my friend have me roll a d20 for stats.

This just goes to show you, never trust your friends.

Also, I thought I could cast third level spells as first level sorcerer. I used this to get into a prestige class. I really messed up that character.:smallbiggrin: