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View Full Version : [3.5] Level adjustment & Racial hitdice



Dogmantra
2009-01-17, 06:56 PM
I'm a little confused on how these work...
Take the example of a Satyr:

Racial Hit Dice: A satyr begins with five levels of fey, which provide 5d6 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +4, and Will +4
...
Level adjustment +2.

I know that to work out exp needed for the next level, you add racial hitdice to LA to class level, but say I was starting an adventure from level one, and playing a Satyr:
1. Would I be able to?
2. Do I start with all 5 levels of Fey, or do I gain them instead of class levels for the first 5 levels (accounting for LA)?

The wording suggests that a Satyr player would start with 5 levels in Fey, and need to gain the equivalent of 7 levels before getting class levels, but it seems like that would be quite overpowered (especially in the case of things like Hill Giants, which get a load more [and larger] hit dice.) for first level.

EDIT: I don't want to play a satyr, I just used it as an example, it was the first monster I came to that had both things.

monty
2009-01-17, 07:00 PM
You would not be able to start at level one. You can't play without all racial hit dice and level adjustment, so the absolute minimum playable level of a satyr would be ECL 7.

Dogmantra
2009-01-17, 07:03 PM
so the absolute minimum playable level of a satyr would be ECL 7.
And that would be level 5, right?

Keld Denar
2009-01-17, 07:07 PM
Um, different suppliments have class progressions for different monster stuff. I know there is progressions for things like Were beasties on the wizards website, and Savage Speicies has a lot too. Races of the Wild also has things like Centaurs and might have Satyrs too (don't own it). Libris Mortis has undead like Ghouls, Vamp Spawn, and Wights.

And yes, when everyone else is 7th level, you'll be stuck as a 5 HD satyr, although you'll probably have better stats and neato abilities. Thats what LA compensates for.

monty
2009-01-17, 07:10 PM
And that would be level 5, right?

Sort of. You have five hit dice, for purposes of hit points, saves, HD-dependent effects, and so on. But you still count as a level 7 character for experience.

FMArthur
2009-01-18, 01:46 AM
You would need to replace seven class levels to play a Satyr. The only distinction you need to make between those 5 racial HD and the 2 LA is that you get extra stuff out of the racial HD. You don't get to disclude either from your character level or anything like that.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-18, 03:27 AM
I'll try making an LA 0 Satyr for you now.

This will be awkward due to how many bonuses they have (the Int penalty will be based off me seeing them as being like the Satyrs in Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic in the sense that they are only really interrested in having fun.)

+2 Dex, -2 Int.
40' movement.
Low-light vision.
1d6 Gore attack.
+1 Natural Armour.

Would you guys say that's balanced?

BobVosh
2009-01-18, 03:45 AM
I'll try making an LA 0 Satyre for you now.

This will be awkward due to how many bonuses they have (the Int penalty will be based off me seeing them as being like the Satyrs in Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic in the sense that they are only really interrested in having fun.)

+2 Dex, -2 Int.
40' movement.
Low-light vision.
1d6 Gore attack.
+1 Natural Armour.

Would you guys say that's balanced?

No. That would likely be LA 1 in my book. +1 to armor and faster? Along with good statbump for most classes. A great rogue.

Anyway, Savage Specis has rules how to level up monsters.

xPANCAKEx
2009-01-18, 03:47 AM
+2 Dex, -2 Int.
40' movement.
Low-light vision.
1d6 Gore attack.
+1 Natural Armour.

Would you guys say that's balanced?

nope - i'd say thats more an LA+1 creation at least, probablt LA+2

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-18, 03:50 AM
I tend not to see natural armour as that useful, and I didn;t think the other features were that spectacular (I class Int as more useful then Dexx due to how I tend to like having skill points regardless of which class I'm using). How would it have an LA of 2?

BobVosh
2009-01-18, 03:53 AM
Compare it to any PHB race. Only human possibly competes with it. That is just because feats (potentially) are so useful. Also get a pseudo +2 int from skills.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-18, 03:56 AM
I was comparing it to those races. Which stats would you use? (I'm talking to one person who thinks it's slightly underpowered as it is.)

Devils_Advocate
2009-01-19, 07:19 PM
You don't get to disclude either from your character level or anything like that.
No, "character level" is specifically total hit dice (racial hit dice + class levels). That's what you use for rules that mention "character level", by default.

An extra attack can be pretty useful. It's only on a full attack, and thus doesn't synergize with the high speed, but still. That's what arguably pushes warforged over the "deserves a level adjustment" line, in my mind. Or would, if they didn't need to blow a feat to get appropriate armor.

Level Adjustments should be based on the assumption that a race will be optimally used. +4 Int -4 Str and +4 Str -4 Int both warrant LA, because you shouldn't decide Level Adjustment by averaging how good a barbarian and how good a wizard you can make with a race, you should go with the better of the two.

You can make a build that doesn't really need Int for anything. You can also make a good build that doesn't need Cha for anything and uses medium or heavy armor, and that's why dwarves' stats aren't really balanced. On the other hand, Constitution is important to everyone, which is why high elves are kinda weak: Unlike other races, you can't really render their drawback nigh-irrelevant.

Those stats are very good for a Barbarian, TWF Ranger, or Clericzilla. You personally liking skills points frankly does not change that.


(the Int penalty will be based off me seeing them as being like the Satyrs in Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic in the sense that they are only really interrested in having fun.)
I'm almost sure those guys have a Wis penalty, too.

"This crown has been the symbol of our monarchy for as far back as we can remember!"
"Which is what, a day?"
"At least!"

Stephen_E
2009-01-19, 07:51 PM
The point to remember when converting a creature such as the Satyr for use in a campaign that start at a level less than the base creature ECL is that so long as you set up the level progression end at the base form, and make the player take that progression, it doesn't really matter if you make some levels a bit to powerful. +1 LA here or there for free isn't important given that eventually you end up as a base Satyr for ECL 7. It's only if you try and create a new Satyr with no LA that people get into serious problems.

To give a bit of varibility to the player you can let them buy class levels before completing the base Satyr build, but limit it to equal or less class levels compared to Satyr levels.

Note that the LA is built into a multi level monster buld as non-HD levels.
Thus a Satyr might be
Lev 1 HD
Lev 2 HD
Lev 3 nonHD
Lev 4 HD
Lev 5 HD
Lev 6 nonHD
Lev 7 HD
With creature abilities and Stat bonuses spread amongst all 7 levs. Important to make sure the non-HD levs get good stuff. Also work out a favoured class. Personally I'd pick 2, at least one of which is NOT PHB and say pick one of these at 1st lev and it's your favoured class for good. Gives a bit of variability without any real power boost for multiclassing.

And if you followed my suggested mixing with Class levels it might look something like this.
ECL1 lev 1 Satyr
ECL2 lev 1 Scout
ECL3 lev 2 Satyr
ECL4 lev 3 Satyr
ECL5 lec 2 Scout
ect

Stephen E

Stephen_E
2009-01-19, 08:18 PM
I was comparing it to those races. Which stats would you use? (I'm talking to one person who thinks it's slightly underpowered as it is.)

How can you possibly class it as weak?

I'm not saying it's overly stong, but weak!

It's stat penalties and bonuses are equal and it has some nice but not uber class abilities.

Base rule regard stat bonuses. It doesn't matter what your personal opinion of the various stats is, neutral stat bonuses is standard balanced.

Then you compare to the PHB races. If your additional features are at least as good as the humans +1 Feat, +1 skill point and floating favoured race then it isn't weak. Looking at the other races will give you an idea regarding class abilities.
- Free AC that stacks (this includes inherent NAC) is always useful. That's a permanet -5% chance of been hit per AC pt.
- Low Light and Dark vision are stock minor boosts.
- A free natural attack is strong.
- Movement mods are stock to a degree. Strenth depends on exact values.
- You don't mention favored class. If you play standard multiclass rules the Human ability is quite nice. Otherwise the actual choice is pretty neurtal, but strong caster favoured classes are a bit weaker.
- Immunities are tricky. They're strong at low levels bit get weaker at high levels. Best used with LA buy off and rate them as strong.

All in all I'd consider your Satyr a strong LA 0 build. It's really a bit to weak for LA 1 unless you're playing LA buy off (IMO this is required to balance Warforged). With all respect anyone who thinks it's possibly LA 2 hasn't looked much at LA or has be partaking of substances. :smallsmile:

Stephen E