[House]Weakening Casters Without Crippling Them

[Lapak]

We started to wander off-topic in another thread a day or two ago, so I thought this would be a good place to pick up the topic. While I'm not implementing this, I was thinking about trying to eliminate the utter domination of full casters in the late game without taking away their superiority altogether. I came up with the following three adjustments:

1. Eliminate every spell that allowed for freeform shapeshifting. (Obviously.) I don't mind a wizard having a spell that specifically transforms him into a dragon, say, but one that allows him to transform into *anything* is too much.

The other two are linked:
2. Eliminate contingency and every variant on contingent spells. This is, quite frankly, the biggest part of what makes wizards nigh-unbeatable at high levels. If it was possible to ambush them, they'd have a weakness (however slight) - but being able to shape a contingency to pull you out of a deathtrap or ambush with perfect reliability is just too powerful.

3. Eliminate Swift Spell and increase all casting times of less than one round to full-round actions.

Between the slower casting and the lack of contingency, a wizard can be caught off guard and actually prevented from getting up to steam. This gives wizards a *reason* to fortify their towers, have physical guards, and so on, and also allows the possibility of a clever or stealthy fighter to get the drop on one and defeat him, while preserving the overpowering nature of a full spellcaster as long as they have even a single full round to set up. That seems fair to me.When we left off, the argument had been made that you still need to ready an action to disrupt a full-round spell, but that actually doesn't appear to be true according to the SRD:

If while trying to cast a spell you take damage, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the level of the spell you’re casting). If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between when you start and when you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action). So. As stated, I'm trying to make it so casters can't walk around with an automatic escape up, or react instaneously and unpreventably with one if threatened, while still leaving them pretty darn overwhelming if they get even a round or two to put defenses up. If a melee specialist somehow gets the drop on them, though, they should be in real danger. Do these changes seem about right? Do they go too far? Not far enough?

[Fax Celestis]

Those are good equalizations. Here's another idea:

Remove the Concentration skill.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Removing Polycheeze and Contingency: Win is a good idea. Removing swift spells is not. It makes some spells (like Feather Fall) completely pointless. Remember, Quickened is a +4 spell level adjustment. That's pretty steep is you keep them from doing things like Incantatrix to reduce that limitation.

The problem with wizards and sorcerers isn't just the polycheeze and contingency, it's the broken PrC's that they can get. Limit their PrC selection and you'll see a drastically limited cheeze level.

[Lapak]

Removing Polycheeze and Contingency: Win is a good idea. Removing swift spells is not. It makes some spells (like Feather Fall) completely pointless. Remember, Quickened is a +4 spell level adjustment. That's pretty steep is you keep them from doing things like Incantatrix to reduce that limitation.That's a good point. Certainly spells that are "naturally" quickened should probably be exempt, so that could change to "all spells that require a standard action to to cast now now require a full round." As for Quickened spells in general, I still feel that being able to pull off spells instantly while in melee range is part of what unbalances things, but it may also be that my judgement is colored by things like Sudden Quicken and the metamagic rods. (Because they don't alter the spell slot.) Simply eliminating Sudden metamagics and metamagic rods may go a long way towards improving matters in this regard; I'll have to think about it.
The problem with wizards and sorcerers isn't just the polycheeze and contingency, it's the broken PrC's that they can get. Limit their PrC selection and you'll see a drastically limited cheeze level.Absolutely, but when it comes right down to it it's the instant and/or automatic kicking in of their potent defenses that makes them the clear winners at level 20. Dropping Contingency makes it possible to ambush them; dropping Quickening makes it far more possible to kill them in an ambush without one-shotting them - maybe too much, though.

Thanks for the comments! I'll have to think for a bit about how much Quickened Spell changes the balance of things, as you've made a good point there.

[Fualkner Asiniti]

Contingency is slightly broken, but you can fix it by a double ambush. Ambush with a kobold, then with the real force. DM's just have to use their heads on this one.

Polyporph can be fixed by using this variant. (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/dC21fDHZ4tK8n5OjUm9.html)

[Helgraf]

Also, other things to consider.

Sudden Quickened Antimagic Field. Your contingency can't activate if it's suppressed by antimagic.

Teleport suppression (eg Dimensional Anchor/Dimensional Lock), or, barring that, teleport tracer/follower spells and effects.

Wearing tactics (as mentioned by another poster) - twig off the contingency with dangerous but still subpar CR monsters, then send in your battle cannons.

If you're going up against other high end spellcasters, don't be afraid to slag their spells and (potentially) equipment with Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

The key to dealing with high-end mages is preparation and study. Know the tactics he (or she) will use by studying battles - this is best done by scouting/preliminary forces sent to harry the spellcaster and party in question. Then deploy appropriate countermeasures for when you make your serious attack.

[Lapak]

Also, other things to consider.

Sudden Quickened Antimagic Field. Your contingency can't activate if it's suppressed by antimagic.I'm going to cut you off right there: obviously another well-prepared full caster can deal with a full caster. I'm trying to make them doable for people without the resources to utterly shut down their arcane arsenal and balance them against melee folks and (to a lesser degree) hybrids.

Teleport suppression (eg Dimensional Anchor/Dimensional Lock), or, barring that, teleport tracer/follower spells and effects.Again, the goal is for a non-caster to have a realistic chance of beating them.

Wearing tactics (as mentioned by another poster) - twig off the contingency with dangerous but still subpar CR monsters, then send in your battle cannons.Most contingencies worth anything either bring you completely off the battlefield or put you under an extremely sturdy defense (prismatic sphere, wall of force, etc.) so that you can bring your more active defenses on-line. Unless you're dealing with a stupid caster, he's not just going to have a contingency dimension door him 200 feet forward or anything.

The key to dealing with high-end mages is preparation and study. Know the tactics he (or she) will use by studying battles - this is best done by scouting/preliminary forces sent to harry the spellcaster and party in question. Then deploy appropriate countermeasures for when you make your serious attack.The problem here is that in a prolonged confrontation the advantage shifts decisively to the caster, who can layer arcane defenses and engage in heavy scrying, summoning and movement to pick the most advantageous time, place and conditions for combat. And that's as it should be, I think - but with quickened spells and contingencies they get to have that advantage all the time if they're smart enough to keep an escape route handy.

[The Demented One]

The Contingency spell itself isn't that bad, as it limits you to only one spell at a time. The real offender is the Craft Contingent Spell feat, which lets you make a limitless number of contingent spells dirt cheap, letting you build up ridiculous layers of defenses against every imaginable form of attack.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Remember, you are the GM. If you decide Metamagic Rods are broken, then simply declare they do not exist anywhere in your world and let them deal with it.

Contingency, once blown, needs to be reset before it can be used again. So you set up your kobold trapster to pop the contingency, as a stalking horse. Then, after the kobold has been taken care of, the high-level rogue/assassin with Crossbow Sniper shoots the wizard in the back from 50 feet for obscene sneak attack damage and Fort Save or Die while everyone is recovering from the encounter. Succeeding or failing, he has enough hide and move silently skill, not to mention other methods of evading detection, to slip away unnoticed, to prepare another ambush-within-an-ambush.

Edit: Another way to eliminate wizards easily is to have them offend an order of monks who specialize in grappling and have all taken the Vow of Poverty. That ought to put a wizard in his place

[Iron_Mouse]

Those are good equalizations. Here's another idea:

Remove the Concentration skill.
Why not just removing the Defensive Casting action? Get some reach weapons and let the AoO fun begin.

Or change the dc to 10 + 5 for every opponent that threatens you. Hey, that would even fix the combat casting feat (which is pretty useless right now).

[I_Got_This_Name]

Make all prestige classes that grant full spellcasting cause you to not gain one spell slot of the highest level you can cast with each level (full spellcasting - one top of the end slot each level, so a Wizard8 going to Iot7V 1 gains access to 5th level spells, but has 0 spell slots, plus bonus spells. That same wizard gains another Iot7V level, and gains more spell slots, but not the normal 5th level spell slot for a 10th level wizard, because it's a PrC level. Later levels are gained as normal (losing more spell slots for PrCing, though); they're a wizard sans two 5th-level spell slots.

Possibly make PrCs that grant less than full progression eat slots on fewer levels (they've already got disincentives), and possibly make the Archmage also eat fewer slots (since it eats slots already).

There. An incentive not to PrC has been added, and being able to PrC for free is one of the things overpowering primary casters. Also, the Sorcerer's power has been increased, relative to the Wizard, because losing a spell slot for a newly-acquired level doesn't kick the Sorc back to bonus spells, and losing a net total of two spell slots per spell level drops the Sorc to 2/3 capacity, rather than 1/2.

[SilveryCord]

Use one of countless (okay, 2) Unearthed Arcana variants that fix this issue.
Sanity.
Incantations. (Replacing a Wizard with an Expert that just happens to have a class ability saying that they're the only ones who can do incantations is nice. Takes two seconds to make an incantationist class.)
Have your DM use Monks that aren't blind, deaf, and dumb and are properly equipped to deal with a caster.
Get your casters to use more interesting casting classes. Invocations. Truespeaking. Shadow magic. Pacts.
Have DMs who aren't afraid to destroy spellbooks every once and a while.
Disallow Natural Spell, Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, and other overpowered feats.

[Fualkner Asiniti]

On a side note, what book is Vow of Poverty in?

[ishi]

On a side note, what book is Vow of Poverty in?

Book of Exalted Deeds

[Collin152]

Use one of countless (okay, 2) Unearthed Arcana variants that fix this issue.
Sanity.
Incantations. (Replacing a Wizard with an Expert that just happens to have a class ability saying that they're the only ones who can do incantations is nice. Takes two seconds to make an incantationist class.)
Have your DM use Monks that aren't blind, deaf, and dumb and are properly equipped to deal with a caster.
Get your casters to use more interesting casting classes. Invocations. Truespeaking. Shadow magic. Pacts.
Have DMs who aren't afraid to destroy spellbooks every once and a while.
Disallow Natural Spell, Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, and other overpowered feats.

Truespeaking... rings a bell... i cant for the life of me remeber what it is and where its from though...

[Caelestion]

You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater, SilveryCord. Eschew Materials is not overpowered IMO. How many campaigns can you honestly name where the DM or players bothered to keep track of all the components worth less than 1 gp?
If Silent Spell is overpowered, aren't ALL metamagic feats? Natural Spell is unquestionably powerful, I'll admit, but it seems that people always want to make the system bend over backwards to fix the slightest problems and thus create a whole bagfull more.

Truespeaking is from Tome of Magic I believe.

[Raum]

1. Eliminate every spell that allowed for freeform shapeshifting. (Obviously.) I don't mind a wizard having a spell that specifically transforms him into a dragon, say, but one that allows him to transform into *anything* is too much.
PHB2 and CompMage have taken a few steps to reign in polymorphing, they may be enough. If not, I suggest just removing the Extraordinary abilities.

Changing shape by itself isn't usually a problem, other than changes in Con, the wizard isn't going to gain hit points and won't be much more survivable in melee combat. Better AC helps, but it seldom takes more than a hit or two to seriously wound a caster. In general, the broken parts of polymorphing are from the abilities gained.


The other two are linked:
2. Eliminate contingency and every variant on contingent spells. This is, quite frankly, the biggest part of what makes wizards nigh-unbeatable at high levels. If it was possible to ambush them, they'd have a weakness (however slight) - but being able to shape a contingency to pull you out of a deathtrap or ambush with perfect reliability is just too powerful.
Making dispelling magic easier and more powerful is another method of limiting the usefulness of contingencies. Also, one contingency isn't usually too game breaking, it's the Craft Contingency feat which can make wizards truly unbeatable.


3. Eliminate Swift Spell and increase all casting times of less than one round to full-round actions.
This comes closer to crippling casters than you may want. Or maybe not. But if you are going down this route, why not revert to 2nd ed casting and have spells last a full time segment per spell level?

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You may also consider limiting casters' powers by giving them more abilities. Making counterspelling easier is one method. I posted a potential house rule for allowing counterspelling as an immediate action not too long ago. A spell countered is both a spent spell slot and a negated action after all. And, as an immediate action, it meant the counterspelling caster couldn't use a swift action on his next turn.