[3.5] Best class combination for stealthy gestalt character.

[Myou]

In one of the solo campaigns I've got coming up my DM offered to let me play a gestalt character.

I want to play a sneaky character who's good at tricking ad bluffing enemies and using diplomacy over violence. All published sources are open.

I don't want to play a caster however, (I'm playing enough casters already) or use any prestige classes.

Can anyone suggest which classes would work best for this?

Ideally they'd have no casting ability at all, but limited casting like a ranger's is something I'd consider.

[Saph]

Hmm. Well, one side of the gestalt is going to have to be a skillmonkey, to get you the skill points you need - probably Rogue or Factotum. Not sure what to do with the other side, though.

Really, any skillmonkey class can do the sneak+diplomacy+trick routine all on their own. So the second class will be up to you. Maybe something that gives shapeshifting, so you can change appearance.

- Saph

[Keld Denar]

Factotum//Warlock

Not really a caster, warlocks get some neato abilities that can be used for supreme mischeif, like Baleful Utterance (shatter), Walk Unseen (invis), and Flee the Scene (Dim Door + invis).

Factotum gives you plenty of skill points, and a load of tricks, including a bit of self healing, extra actions, a very small handful of spell-like abilities to compliment your warlock stuff.

Best part is, once you get it set up, you never have to "pick spells" or whatever. Almost every ability is nearly or completely unlimited at will.

Stat focus would be Int >>>>>> Cha = Con = Dex > Wis > Str

Should be a lot of fun!

[Myou]

Hmm. Well, one side of the gestalt is going to have to be a skillmonkey, to get you the skill points you need - probably Rogue or Factotum. Not sure what to do with the other side, though.

Really, any skillmonkey class can do the sneak+diplomacy+trick routine all on their own. So the second class will be up to you. Maybe something that gives shapeshifting, so you can change appearance.

- Saph

Before he offered to let me go gestalt I was going for a rogue, yeah, but a factotum could be good.

I hadn't thought of shapeshifting but it would be great to have, can you suggest any non-caster classes that give it? I can't think of any off the top of my head.


Factotum//Warlock

Not really a caster, warlocks get some neato abilities that can be used for supreme mischeif, like Baleful Utterance (shatter), Walk Unseen (invis), and Flee the Scene (Dim Door + invis).

Factotum gives you plenty of skill points, and a load of tricks, including a bit of self healing, extra actions, a very small handful of spell-like abilities to compliment your warlock stuff.

Best part is, once you get it set up, you never have to "pick spells" or whatever. Almost every ability is nearly or completely unlimited at will.

Stat focus would be Int >>>>>> Cha = Con = Dex > Wis > Str

Should be a lot of fun!

That does look like a great combination, I'm considering going for that.

I'm interested in the sugestion of shapeshifting though, as Saph suggested.

[crazedloon]

I agree a warlock/factotum would be your best option then have changling as your base race. It gives you nice bonuses on your interaction skills as well as giving you the shap shifting you want without muliclassing.

heck this character would have a 13 +cha on bluff at 1st level add a masterwork item and you get 15+. very little will actually doubt you :smallbiggrin:

[Saph]

Before he offered to let me go gestalt I was going for a rogue, yeah, but a factotum could be good.

I hadn't thought of shapeshifting but it would be great to have, can you suggest any non-caster classes that give it? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Wild Shape Ranger/Master of Many Forms would be one option.

Another would be a race with a shapeshift ability, like doppleganger or changeling.

The Warlock suggestion might work, too, if there's a Warlock invocation that gives disguise self or alter self (I'm sure there has to be one somewhere).

- Saph

[Myou]

I agree a warlock/factotum would be your best option then have changling as your base race. It gives you nice bonuses on your interaction skills as well as giving you the shap shifting you want without muliclassing.

heck this character would have a 13 +cha on bluff at 1st level add a masterwork item and you get 15+. very little will actually doubt you :smallbiggrin:


Wild Shape Ranger/Master of Many Forms would be one option.

Another would be a race with a shapeshift ability, like doppleganger or changeling.

The Warlock suggestion might work, too, if there's a Warlock invocation that gives disguise self or alter self (I'm sure there has to be one somewhere).

- Saph
The doppleganger has, as I understand it, a +8 ECL, so that won't work, but changeling might, can you tell me where I can find it?

Are there any sources that give additional invocations?

If I can't find one then I can make do without, it'd just be nice to have.

If I don't go for changeling then I think I'll go with rogue//warlock.
Factotums are nice but they just seem a bit overpowered. Poor rogues get no love. D:

[Flickerdart]

The doppleganger has, as I understand it, a +8 ECL, so that won't work
Why not? You can throw it all on one side of the gestalt and have only one class for 8 levels. Not a huge loss if the abilities and class features synergize well.

[crazedloon]

changelings can be found in MMIII/eberron campaign setting/races of eberron

and there are new invocations in dragon magic and complete mage

[Keld Denar]

The only books that even involve invocations are Complete Arcane (home of the Warlock, the origional invoker), Dragon Magic (home of the Dragonfire Adept, the most fun invoker, IMO), and Complete Mage, the suppliment to Complete Arcane, which contained Warlocks.

I think Dragon Magic has a Disguise Self based invocation named Alternate Form or something.

[Tempest Fennac]

Swordsage could make up half of the build if you wanted more combat ability (the Shadow Hand school would fit well).

[Myou]

Why not? You can throw it all on one side of the gestalt and have only one class for 8 levels. Not a huge loss if the abilities and class features synergize well.

My DM doesn't want high LA races.

Besides, don't you have to start at at least level 8 to play a +8 LA race without an experience penalty?


changelings can be found in MMIII/eberron campaign setting/races of eberron

and there are new invocations in dragon magic and complete mage

Ahhh, thanks.

Changelings look very useful for this.


The only books that even involve invocations are Complete Arcane (home of the Warlock, the origional invoker), Dragon Magic (home of the Dragonfire Adept, the most fun invoker, IMO), and Complete Mage, the suppliment to Complete Arcane, which contained Warlocks.

I think Dragon Magic has a Disguise Self based invocation named Alternate Form or something.

Thank you!

[Tempest Fennac]

http://www.devinweb.com/invocations.htm could help if you want to use a Warlock.

[Samakain]

Rogue/Beguiler? seems to fit the OP as well as i can manage
However for more blasty fun Rogue/Warlock :D

[Uncle Festy]

Definitely Shadow Hand Swordsage. :smallbiggrin:

[Myou]

Swordsage could make up half of the build if you wanted more combat ability (the Shadow Hand school would fit well).

I did looks at the swordsage, but it looked to be mainly combat orientated. Is the shadow hand school more stealth focused?

Thanks for the link by the way.


Rogue/Beguiler? seems to fit the OP as well as i can manage
However for more blasty fun Rogue/Warlock :D

I just don't want to play another spellcaster though.

[Tempest Fennac]

Some of the abilities are useful for stealth and mobility, but I was thinking more about how the offensive abilities are brilliant from a flavour perspective as far as stealthy characters go. Regarding the idea that I suggested it for combat purposes, I mainly made that suggestion because there's inevitably going to be occasions where you have to fight, so being prepared is wise. (Especially since using a class like Rogue or Ninja on the other side would allow you to handle stealth without any real complications.)

[Myou]

Some of the abilities are useful for stealth and mobility, but I was thinking more about how the offensive abilities are brilliant from a flavour perspective as far as stealthy characters go. Regarding the idea that I suggested it for combat purposes, I mainly made that suggestion because there's inevitably going to be occasions where you have to fight, so being prepared is wise. (Especially since using a class like Rogue or Ninja on the other side would allow you to handle stealth without any real complications.)

After reading up on the Shadow Hand I agree, it's both useful and waorks very well with the character concept, thanks!


So now I face a descision.
Do I play an Elf rogue//warlock or a changeling rogue//swordsage.

As I understand it, if I used weapon finesse the rogue//swordsage would still need dex, con, int, wis and cha for what I want to do, that seems a bit impractical, is there anything I could to to reduce this MADness?

[monty]

After reading up on the Shadow Hand I agree, it's both useful and waorks very well with the character concept, thanks!


So now I face a descision.
Do I play an Elf rogue//warlock or a changeling rogue//swordsage.

As I understand it, if I used weapon finesse the rogue//swordsage would still need dex, con, int, wis and cha for what I want to do, that seems a bit impractical, is there anything I could to to reduce this MADness?

Why not Factotum instead of Rogue?

You'll have almost no MAD, especially if you can get the right feats. Look at it this way:
Str: Factotum for Int to hit/damage and all Str-based skills, so unimportant. In either case (swordsage or warlock), you shouldn't be relying on Str for combat ability anyway.
Dex: Factotum for Int to AC, saves, hit, and all Dex-based skills. Also, gives you a good Fort save.
Con: Not much you can do here, unless you can get FMI. Also, Int to saves and Concentration from Factotum.
Int: This is your big one, obviously.
Wis: I think there's a feat that lets you switch Int for Wis for will saves and a handful of skills, but it's not a big deal either way.
Cha: You shouldn't need to get this too high, and remember that you can add your class level to each skill 1/day with Factotum if you really need to make a check.

So all you really need is Int, maybe Con, and a decent Cha.

[Keld Denar]

Wis: I think there's a feat that lets you switch Int for Wis for will saves and a handful of skills, but it's not a big deal either way.

Kung-Fu Genius was in a Dragon Mag somewhere, and Carmandine Monk is in either one of the Faerun or Eberron books, but I forget which exactly now. Both do what you say, by switching all of your wisdom based features over to int.

Or just play a factotum...cause they be AWESOMEsause, and the sause is the boss.

[Heliomance]

The above post is fairly misleading. Int to saves, attack, and damage is not a constant thing. It's something you activate for a specific roll and costs an inspiration point each time. Int to AC is against one opponent, for one round, and again costs an inspiration point per use, until 16th level at which point it becomes continuous.

[monty]

The above post is fairly misleading. Int to saves, attack, and damage is not a constant thing. It's something you activate for a specific roll and costs an inspiration point each time. Int to AC is against one opponent, for one round, and again costs an inspiration point per use, until 16th level at which point it becomes continuous.

Yes, but as a stealth-focused Factotum, if you need more than that, you're probably doing something wrong.

[Charlie Kemek]

I know it's not as good as the rouge, but I found that a scout//warlock should be even better. as EB is a standard action, you can move and use chained or coned EB, that do negative levels, plus an AC bonus and extra damage. or you could take swift ambusher, and do BOTH sneak attack and skirmish damage, something like rouge 1-2/scout 18-19//warlock 20, or probably more like scout 20//rogue 1-2/warlock 18-19. tons of damage, and if you take a dip in ranger and take the swift hunter feat, you can get skirmish to favored enemies if you move, even if they're immune to precision damage, and you get favored enemy goodness with scout levels. so more like scout 20//rogue 1/ranger 1/warlock 18.

[Rei_Jin]

I'd love to see the Synergy between a Factotum and a Swashbuckler. Throw in levels (later) of Duelist, and you can run most things off your intelligence.

[thorgrim29]

For a stealthy character, I'd suggest a rogue//shadow hand swordsage, either whisper gnome or changeling.

[wadledo]

Also, as to doppelgangers, they have +4 LA, not 8.
You can get most of their stuff if you don't mind waiting till level 11 and using up most of your PrC's, but it basically lets you use read thoughts constantly and get some decent bonuses to diplo and bluff.

[FMArthur]

Also, as to doppelgangers, they have +4 LA, not 8.
You can get most of their stuff if you don't mind waiting till level 11 and using up most of your PrC's, but it basically lets you use read thoughts constantly and get some decent bonuses to diplo and bluff.

Nobody in this thread said Doppelgangers have +8 LA. They add +8 to their ECL due to them having +4 LA and 4 racial hit dice (monstrous humanoid levels, to be precise).

[wadledo]

My DM doesn't want high LA races.

Besides, don't you have to start at at least level 8 to play a +8 LA race without an experience penalty?

White text of doom, baby!

[Myou]

wadledo, you know what I meant, I just typed LA intead of ECL in that post.


Anyway, I want to thank everyone who's made suggestions, you've all been very helpful!


I want to try to go with a pure two class build, with no multiclassing or dips.

I've decided on a (changeling) rogue for one class and at the moment I'm leaning towards swordsage for the other. But I'm also tempted by the warlock.

One thing that occured to me though is the possibility of sneak attacks with Eldritch Blast if I went for a warlock. Can I actually sneak attack with Eldritch Blast?

[monty]

One thing that occured to me though is the possibility of sneak attacks with Eldritch Blast if I went for a warlock. Can I actually sneak attack with Eldritch Blast?

Short answer: yes.

[wadledo]

You might want to look into Cabinet Trickster from Races of Eberron then.
Permanent detect thoughts, a bunch of bonuses to bluff and sense motive that stack with your racial stuff, and some decent bonus feats and combat stuff.

[Myou]

Short answer: yes.

Long answer "At less than 30ft"? Or is there more to it?

[monty]

Long answer "At less than 30ft"? Or is there more to it?

Not really, but "Yes." is less than ten characters.

[wadledo]

Long answer "At less than 30ft"? Or is there more to it?

Yes, at less than 30', as long as the other sneak attack stuff works to(like flat footed, flanked, etc).
It's the exact same thing as using a bow.

[sombrastewart]

For what it's worth, if you're willing to get a +1 LA, nab the Dark template out of Tome of Magic. For the +1, you get an innate Hide in Plain Sight, a +8 Hide, a +6 Move Silently, Darkvision, +10 ft. base movement and Cold Resistance of 10. It's my favorite template, and I suggest it if someone asks for advice on stealth characters.

[Myou]

You might want to look into Cabinet Trickster from Races of Eberron then.
Permanent detect thoughts, a bunch of bonuses to bluff and sense motive that stack with your racial stuff, and some decent bonus feats and combat stuff.

I'm trying to avoid PrCs, but I'll have a look at it, thanks. It might be helpful if I find I'm underpowered and having trouble in the campaign.


Not really, but "Yes." is less than ten characters.

Good old arbitrary character reqirement.


Yes, at less than 30', as long as the other sneak attack stuff works to(like flat footed, flanked, etc).
It's the exact same thing as using a bow.

Good good.


For what it's worth, if you're willing to get a +1 LA, nab the Dark template out of Tome of Magic. For the +1, you get an innate Hide in Plain Sight, a +8 Hide, a +6 Move Silently, Darkvision, +10 ft. base movement and Cold Resistance of 10. It's my favorite template, and I suggest it if someone asks for advice on stealth characters.

Wow, for just +1? What's the catch? o.o

[Arbitrarity]

It's +1 LA. :smallwink:

ALSO, Whisper Gnome (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3) or Changeling Rogue substitution levels are fun. Changeling Rogue substitution allows taking 10 on many social skills for Trapfinding, and gives 10 skill points/level. (Races of Eberron)

[Thurbane]

I would recommend Factotum/Fighter. It's a simplistic option, but hear me out.

It's generally accepted that Factotums can do everything as good or better than a Rogue (with the exception of 2 less skill points/level and sneak attack), while Fighter gives you BAB, HP, a good Fort save and precious feats. (Or maybe you could take the UA variant fighter that gets sneak attack instead of feats).

Just a thought, anyway...

[monty]

Good old arbitrary character reqirement.

Yep, the short answer is too short.

[Tokiko Mima]

Just thought I'd mention this, since someone mentioned Changelings and Doppelgangers.

A Doppelganger is a 4 (bad) HD monster with +4 LA. A Changeling is a 0 HD +0 LA creature that's a human/doppelganger hybrid. If what you want is all the abilities of a Doppelganger, you are almost always better off building as a Changeling with 5 levels of Cabinet Trickster (Races of Eberron.) You get virtually all the benefits of being a doppelganger (Shape Shift, Detect Thoughts at will, skill bonuses) and enjoy more 3 more PC levels and some fun class features too.

[Myou]

Oh bittersweet irony, my DM has offered to let me take the shadowdancer and assassin PrCs as one side of my gestalt. Thus making all the great tips and advice redundant. ><

Thank you to everyone who helped though! ^^

I might post in the character building thread soon looking for possible builds if anyone's interested in helping me build the character.

[Heliomance]

Shadowdancer is a one-level class and assassin is underpowered :P

Ignore them and take the advice given anyway :smallbiggrin:

[Myou]

Shadowdancer is a one-level class and assassin is underpowered :P

Ignore them and take the advice given anyway :smallbiggrin:

Shadowdancer is a ten level class. o.O
There's no such thing as a one-level class.

Anyway, they fit the character concept I have better than warlock or swordsage. If I wanted a more powerful character I wouldn't be choosing rogue.

[Charlie Kemek]

Shadowdancer is a ten level class. o.O
There's no such thing as a one-level class.

There's only one reason for most people to take Shadowdancer, which is HiPS with a 1 level dip. none of the rest of the class is powerful enough to miss normal class levels usually. so other than the first level, which you can take the dark template for instead, since you're in gestalt. no offence, but you won't be able to help the party much. you also have to take some pretty useless feats, unless I am mistaken, to get in.

[Myou]

There's only one reason for most people to take Shadowdancer, which is HiPS with a 1 level dip. none of the rest of the class is powerful enough to miss normal class levels usually. so other than the first level, which you can take the dark template for instead, since you're in gestalt. no offence, but you won't be able to help the party much. you also have to take some pretty useless feats, unless I am mistaken, to get in.

My DM's waiving the entry requirements. And I'm playing a solo campaign so there's no party to worry about.

[Dyllan]

It may be a bit late, but I'm surprised no one suggested going Rogue 20 / Swashbuckler 3 / Scout 3 / Whatever 14. With two feats you get full Grace progression from Swashbuckler and full Skirmish progression from Scout.

Maybe throw in Fighter for feats, Monk for speed, or a level of Barbarian for speed even... Guess I'm too late now though anyway.

[Charlie Kemek]

It may be a bit late, but I'm surprised no one suggested going Rogue 20 / Swashbuckler 3 / Scout 3 / Whatever 14. With two feats you get full Grace progression from Swashbuckler and full Skirmish progression from Scout.

Maybe throw in Fighter for feats, Monk for speed, or a level of Barbarian for speed even... Guess I'm too late now though anyway.

I basically did, but w/o the swashbuckler, and with more scout (higher HD, actual capstone ability, etc.) and instead with warlock and ranger.

[Myou]

It may be a bit late, but I'm surprised no one suggested going Rogue 20 / Swashbuckler 3 / Scout 3 / Whatever 14. With two feats you get full Grace progression from Swashbuckler and full Skirmish progression from Scout.

Maybe throw in Fighter for feats, Monk for speed, or a level of Barbarian for speed even... Guess I'm too late now though anyway.

It's because I don't want to multiclass. But thanks for the suggestion.

[Heliomance]

I still think straight Factotum on one side of the gestalt would be really rather nice. Get your Int to Hide and Move Silently, along with any other Str, Dex or Con based check, and add your class level to a skill check once per day per skill. Some sort of Rogue/Ranger/Scout mix might be nice on the other side, with Swift Ambusher and Swift Hunter, though I'm not sure how redundant those would be with Factotum involved. Dread Commando is another good stealth-based class you might want to look into, from Heroes of Battle IIRC.

[Dyllan]

You could always do monk/scout. Maybe not the most powerful, but you're always well armed, you can move silently at half speed and still move faster than everyone else walks, and you'd be pretty good in a fight.

Of course, there's a bit of a MAD issue there. Depends on what kind of stats you're working with.

[Curmudgeon]

Wow, for just +1? What's the catch? o.o
The catch is that the Hide in Plain Sight provided is the weakest of all the Extraordinary versions. All (Ex) versions of HiPS only take care of the "not being observed" requirement for Hide, which means you still need to provide cover/concealment to be able to use the skill. (And of course any sort of concealment kills sneak attack.) Additionally, the Dark Creature HiPS completely fails in any sort of daylight, so it's useless above ground half the time. Compared to the Supernatural version of Hide in Plain Sight (Assassin/Shadowdancer), this is very weak stuff.

[Myou]

I still think straight Factotum on one side of the gestalt would be really rather nice. Get your Int to Hide and Move Silently, along with any other Str, Dex or Con based check, and add your class level to a skill check once per day per skill. Some sort of Rogue/Ranger/Scout mix might be nice on the other side, with Swift Ambusher and Swift Hunter, though I'm not sure how redundant those would be with Factotum involved. Dread Commando is another good stealth-based class you might want to look into, from Heroes of Battle IIRC.

I agree, factotum would be very good, but they're just a bit overpowered to me, I'd prefer to play a rogue, whose flavour I also like more.

But thank you for the advice!


You could always do monk/scout. Maybe not the most powerful, but you're always well armed, you can move silently at half speed and still move faster than everyone else walks, and you'd be pretty good in a fight.

Of course, there's a bit of a MAD issue there. Depends on what kind of stats you're working with.

I like the idea, but it's not quite what I'm going for. Thanks though.


The catch is that the Hide in Plain Sight provided is the weakest of all the Extraordinary versions. All (Ex) versions of HiPS only take care of the "not being observed" requirement for Hide, which means you still need to provide cover/concealment to be able to use the skill. (And of course any sort of concealment kills sneak attack.) Additionally, the Dark Creature HiPS completely fails in any sort of daylight, so it's useless above ground half the time. Compared to the Supernatural version of Hide in Plain Sight (Assassin/Shadowdancer), this is very weak stuff.

Ah, now that explains the +1 LA.

That wouldn't be much good to me then, especially with both shadowdancer and assassin available to me.

[Temp.]

Now I'm a fan of [Bard*/Beguiler/Factotum/Rogue/Scout... pick one]//Incarnate. Incarnate is normally one of the best generic skllmonkeys around. Add to it actual skill points and an actual skill list and you've got a pretty slick gig going on.
*Bardic Knack variant with the Jack of All Trades feat. Otherwise, forget it.

But frankly, in a solo campaign optimization doesn't mean a thing. I'd play with the niftiest concept and run with it (if a Lurk//Beguiler archer sounds neat, for instance, this is the time to use it without worrying about being either overpowering or dead weight).

[Rasilak]

What about Fighter 2/Barbarian x-2//Rogue x ?
That's like Ranger on Speed, and entirely core. I don't know what Factotum exactly does, but it sounds like it could replace the Rogue - maybe that's better, since it might not be as combat oriented as Rogue.

[Myou]

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

I've now made my choice, so I'm not looking for any more suggestions or advice. Thanks to everyone who posted.

[Flickerdart]

What about Fighter 2/Barbarian x-2//Rogue x ?
That's like Ranger on Speed, and entirely core. I don't know what Factotum exactly does, but it sounds like it could replace the Rogue - maybe that's better, since it might not be as combat oriented as Rogue.
Factotum does everything. By spending Inspiration points, they can mimic any class ability they damn well please, up to spellcasting. In the words of one of Dungeonscape's writers:

Unlike the bard and other jack-of-all-trade classes, the factotum can be truly skilled at nearly any role he is called to fill. Utilizing an ability called "inspiration", the factotum can cast spells like a wizard (with a bit more flexibility), master any skill, take extra actions, sneak attack, and swing a sword with the best fighter. Since these points refresh at every encounter, the factotum always finds a way to be useful in practically every situation. The class has a number of other great features as well, such as having every skill as a class skill, trapfinding, the ability to heal like a paladin, and turn undead. What I find really appealing though, is that this is perhaps the best class out there for running a campaign with only a single player. The factotum really can do it all.

[Fishy]

Speaking of sneaky gestalt types: I've been wanting to play a Shadowcaster//Rogue for a while. Or maybe a Spellthief, just because it's different.

Shadowcasters get all kinds of neat-looking mysteries focusing on stealth, and 2 skill points per level and not a terribly good skill list. Put that in a gestalt, though, and you can hide in plain sight, sneak attack with Black Arrows, and telekinetically rob people blind with Quicker Than The Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a). Yes, you don't have a lot of staying power, but you're a Rogue: Get in, do your thing, get out.

... Or that's the theory, anyway. Anyone tried it?