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Keld Denar
2009-01-18, 01:56 PM
So...lets pretend that there is a wizard. This wizard has something...very bad...happen to him. His CL has been reduced to below 0. Its very very very unfortunate...

Now, could said wizard still cast any spells?

What about instantaneous spells with no level dependant features?

Edwin
2009-01-18, 02:01 PM
Can CL even go below 0?

Blood_Lord
2009-01-18, 02:03 PM
@OP, no he can't.


Can CL even go below 0?

level 1-3 Wizard with Mage Slayer.

TheStranger
2009-01-18, 02:04 PM
My initial thought would be that you could still cast your spells normally, but anything with a */level duration or a level-dependent effect would be ineffective (cast, but useless). That would seem like the inverse of the way CL-increasing effects work. Not sure if that's RAW, but it seems intuitive.

RTGoodman
2009-01-18, 02:07 PM
The wizard can definitely cast spells, but they're just not as good as they would be otherwise. I'm NOT sure, however, about whether or not the CL would actually be negative, or if there's a minimum of 0 for it.

Either way, it'd suck for all those "1 round/level" spells and stuff like that. Some spells, like ray of frost, though, wouldn't be affected besides for determining range. Basically, you'd be stuck with spells that have automatic effects (magic missile, color spray) that DON'T depend on CL.

Edwin
2009-01-18, 02:09 PM
level 1-3 Wizard with Mage Slayer.

Yeah, I know that 3-4=-1, but I always thought that it would simple put your Cl to a minimum of 0 (as in, cannot cast spells dependant on level).

The Glyphstone
2009-01-18, 02:16 PM
Well, there is some precedent in the Gnome Illusionist 1 substitution level, which has the drawback of giving you -1 to your caster level to either evocations, conjurations, or transmutations. It specifically states that a caster using this feature would not be able to cast spells of that school at 1st level.

Keld Denar
2009-01-18, 02:31 PM
So...if I have a CL of 12, and something imposes a -16 CL on me. After that, I use UMD to trip off a Bead of Karma from a Strand of Prayer Beads (DMG) to get +4 CL.

Would my CL then be 0 (12-16+4=0)?

Or would it be 12-16 to a minimum of 0, then +4 to be 4? I'm pretty sure the penalty is an ongoing thing, because it has a duration of 24 hours.

afroakuma
2009-01-18, 02:32 PM
Based on this:


You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question

I would say no.

Adumbration
2009-01-18, 02:49 PM
On the plus side, you can still use scrolls, staffs, wands and stuff. I think.

afroakuma
2009-01-18, 02:55 PM
Oh, probably.

Keld Denar
2009-01-18, 03:25 PM
Since the magic sponge ability is SU, would using a scroll of AMF negate it, or just supress it for the duration of the AMF? I'm scheming for all I'm worth here....

afroakuma
2009-01-18, 03:36 PM
Okay, well first of all you peeked. Second of all, do you really want to risk it?

Thirdly, your caster levels have been drained. That's like asking if you gain back negative levels while the vampire's in an antimagic field.

Heliomance
2009-01-18, 03:56 PM
Heh, asking how to get around something your DM's done to you on a board your DM frequents? Not the best idea :P

Keld Denar
2009-01-18, 04:28 PM
Well, its just for a PbP mock combat of my party of 4 level 11 dudes against a CR17 encounter of Afroakuma's homebrewed monsters. Its not really a game, more like a combat simulation. If my characters all die, it just proves that I need to work on my optimization skills :P

Thats why I asked the boards. Plus, I'm at work and can't really access the SRD to look up an answer for it myself.

And I didn't peek. I recognized the ability from one of the combats that one of the other players tried. Its not a real peek :P

afroakuma
2009-01-18, 04:37 PM
Adumbration's clue to you. Nice.

Well, in that cause you know how to deal with them now. The remainder will occupy you, though.

Flickerdart
2009-01-18, 04:41 PM
What about the Wild Mage's -3+1d6 CL thing? It can still put him below 1 (technically). What does that mean for his spellcasting?

shadow_archmagi
2009-01-18, 07:19 PM
This could have all kinds of neat and useful reprocussions. For one thing, spells with 1 round/level would persist for an UNROUND, allowing you to hinder foes BEFORE casting your spell. Also, damage-dealing spells would heal.

AmberVael
2009-01-18, 07:22 PM
Spellgifted trait gives +1 to one school and -1 to all others. That could help you drop to negatives.

Just tossing another way to decrease CL out there.

Edit: Hmm, Wizard/Mageslayer/Wildmage with spellgifted.... :smalltongue:
"My unmagic will destroy you! Or... well, hinder me. Crap."

The Minx
2009-01-18, 07:27 PM
I don't think that casting spells with negative CL makes any sense. Seriously, would a Fireball heal those it hits, then? Does a spell with -2 rounds duration begin before it is cast, altering history? Nopers. :smallsmile:

Keld Denar
2009-01-18, 07:28 PM
Vael, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5661742&postcount=40) is the reason I asked. Very very ouchies. Level 11 wizard with a caster level of 12 all of a sudden having a CL of -4...

Stupid 20' AoE spells...

AmberVael
2009-01-18, 07:31 PM
Yeah, I didn't think I was really helping with much. Just musing in a slightly on topic way. :smalltongue:

That seems like a really nasty effect though.

Starbuck_II
2009-01-18, 07:32 PM
Vael, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5661742&postcount=40) is the reason I asked. Very very ouchies. Level 11 wizard with a caster level of 12 all of a sudden having a CL of -4...

Stupid 20' AoE spells...

So He can't cast a spells? Wow.

He still has them for reserve feats or Arcane Strike feat I guess.

afroakuma
2009-01-18, 07:40 PM
Oh, I so hoped he'd go for an even bigger radius, catch the full -18.

Or that Keld wouldn't get wise in time, and would try something else in that area.

Keld Denar
2009-01-18, 07:56 PM
You were just mad that I instaganked your entire encounter at the top of the 2nd encounter, so you made the Call Mook ability a standard action, thus provoking me to try to hit you with something big. I'm pretty sure that I killed the big one and the one little one, and relatively certain I would have disrupted the other little one's summon with my port n pwn tactic.

*grumble*

afroakuma
2009-01-18, 07:59 PM
Of course I was. You instagank everything because you use far more resources than my poor core+homebrew monsters to build retardedly optimized characters that would render every single trial utterly useless.

In other words, to make there be any point at all to this exercise, I had no choice. So instead of summon monster, they use gate.

Actually, I still am. There's little point in these continued two-round kills that I'm seeing across the board. Unless my monsters have access to the same items, feats and spells (which for logical reasons they cannot) the trials are a farce. I had no idea there was still this much that could be so ridiculously exploited.

*sigh* I hate optimization.

Keld Denar
2009-01-18, 08:06 PM
Sowwy...I'm just used to playing at a high level of optimization. My last DM had a nasty tendancy of throwing 2 Swordsage levels on top of EVERYTHING. Its amazing how many more tricks a Basilisk has when it can Shadow Blink at you...

afroakuma
2009-01-18, 08:07 PM
See, I don't even know ToB.

If someone wants to hand me a pamphlet of DM optimization tricks, then there might be some point.

As is, right now I'm going to pull all self-run trials after these two. No more time from me setting up grids and encounters to get mashed in five posts.

Starbuck_II
2009-01-18, 08:07 PM
Actually, I still am. There's little point in these continued two-round kills that I'm seeing across the board. Unless my monsters have access to the same items, feats and spells (which for logical reasons they cannot) the trials are a farce. I had no idea there was still this much that could be so ridiculously exploited.

*sigh* I hate optimization.

Well, to be fair, that is why these fights have a point to see what happens when your monsters face standard D&D allowed products.

BTW, what monster sponges caster level?

Keld Denar
2009-01-18, 08:10 PM
This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5150086&postcount=21).

Nasty little bugger, and really can be tacked on to most encounters without affecting the EL, and still making a huge difference. Its like the Blackguard who wears a suit of armor made out of babies so you can't Fireball him into the next world.

Of course, this hurts more....soooooo much more...

afroakuma
2009-01-18, 08:10 PM
Well, to be fair, that is why these fights have a point to see what happens when your monsters face standard D&D allowed products.

It's always said reasonably optimized. That is, you're expected to apply a bit of self-restraint above and beyond my banishing of the universe-destroying instacheese.

When any standard D&D monster faces something from all standard D&D products, it's gonna die and die fast. I can't think of one that would survive the ridiculousness I'm seeing. I don't expect any game to be successfully played this way; players would have no challenges ever.

*sigh* the only monsters people are having difficulty with are the ones that fight unfair - abilities that strip CL, unpreventable damage effects via move action...


BTW, what monster sponges caster level?

Er... in English?

Keld Denar
2009-01-18, 08:16 PM
Er... in English?

I believe he ment "Which", and I already linked it. It was the Polytrotos, a monster Afrokuma homebrewed. Very neat little bugger, if I do say so myself. Pretty much already 1 shotted my arcane caster, all he has to do is reduce him to negative hp. My level 11 Focused Specialist Conjourer is now a high level commoner...

I blame Melf's Unicorn Arrow hatin...


Hater...

:P

Eldariel
2009-01-18, 08:20 PM
Char Ops have had their own campaigns which have worked fine with optimized caster parties. It's just a matter of using 1) Opponents with class levels, 2) Optimized monsters (switching feats and skills, for example, doesn't affect CR, but makes them a whole lot challenging, much like optimization doesn't affect ECL but makes the PCs more powerful), 3) Have monsters buff themselves through magic if they know they'll be fighting a tough fight soon and 4) Giving monsters their wealth in items that they use when applicable. Oh, and simply increasing HD a bit across the board; generally enough to raise the monster's CR by 1.

Sure, unintelligent monsters are unable to utilize much of that, but their feats, skills and HD can still be optimized to a level where they present a challenge (unless they're seriously over CRd anyways, like the Purple Worm, which is just one Hold Monster away from death if it appears, and yet is CR 13 which would mean it should be a fight of their lives for EL 9 party, which can just cast the aforementioned spell and hack it to death until it stops not-moving...and there're much lower level spells capable of incapacitating it that I'm not thinking of right now).

afroakuma
2009-01-18, 08:21 PM
No, I actually liked that spell.

I just hate all of your casters.

Actually I hate all of your entire party and their old cohort, but especially the casters, and especially Keld for that turning stunt.

afroakuma
2009-01-18, 08:23 PM
Eldariel: I was looking for specific feat/skill choices, spell-like ability switches and the like.

Soul Eater pit fiend takes care of itself.

I'm going to go deck my monsters out in their appropriate wealth. Any suggestions?

Starbuck_II
2009-01-18, 08:23 PM
I believe he ment "Which", and I already linked it. It was the Polytrotos, a monster Afrokuma homebrewed. Very neat little bugger, if I do say so myself. Pretty much already 1 shotted my arcane caster, all he has to do is reduce him to negative hp. My level 11 Focused Specialist Conjourer is now a high level commoner...

I blame Melf's Unicorn Arrow hatin...


Hater...

:P

Wait, each deals -1 caster within area? You were fighting a huge group of monsters there.

Most won't even grant exp sadly (kinda like Belkar when he was a sexy Shoeless God of War).

Hmm, Melf's Unicorn is a nice spell. Wish I had PHB 2 (only book I lack access too).


Afro:


I'm going to go deck my monsters out in their appropriate wealth. Any suggestions?

Remember NPC wealth not PC wealth (otherwise PCs would have way too much wealth if they beat it).

afroakuma
2009-01-18, 08:34 PM
Suggestions, not recriminations. :smalltongue:

I'm aware.

Keld Denar
2009-01-18, 08:34 PM
Purple Wurms have a will save that is so lolfail that you could just chain Colour Spray over and over each round while your party makes with the chop/swing/stab.

And Afroakuma, there is a funny feat in the Monsterous Manual called Ability Focus, yet I can't think of a single monster in the entire thing that actually has it. Give it to a Medusa...and without changing the CR, your PCs have a 10% greater chance of getting stoned. That alone is scary. Give it a Cloak of Cha +4 (with her HD, she could afford one at standard NPC WBL) and you've upped the DC by 2 more, for a 20% extra chance to get stoned. I'd be afraid to be a wizard then. Its hard to target when you can't see.

Living Greyhawk used to be really good at optimizing encounters. A common trick was to tack a level of NPC warrior on a monster. While it doesn't affect the CR, it gives that monster an extra HD, which, with a decent Con score, could result in an extra 15 or so HP, and possibly an extra feat. Also, add in circumstances that aren't bad enough to warrent an EL bump, but still bone the party.

And of course, early LG invented the good ol' box text suprise round, where something HUGE, with a -16 Hide penalty, would get a surprise round for jumping out from behind a well manicured shrubbery. RAWR!

afroakuma
2009-01-18, 08:51 PM
Oh, I know about Ability Focus. Many of my monsters use it.

Well, I know which one to throw at you next. :smallamused: If you'll consent to a battle of sheer terror.

Keld Denar
2009-01-18, 09:17 PM
As long as it isn't a getting 1shotted by a CL21 Blasphemy, or even a CL16 Blasphemy, I'm cool to try. I like a challenge. Sorry if I turned your outsiders. On the plus side, I can't turn your Lamenteae, or whatever the plural of that is. I think they are really neat, especially those little bastards that just nerfed my conjourer...cry.

I'm totally gonna steal those and use them against my optimizer friends and see what happens. I'm thinking they will end up turning into 11th level commoners just the same as I did.

Eldariel
2009-01-18, 09:18 PM
Things such as monsters with the Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper chain are just nasty. Also, monsters with defensive feat chains. And especially monsters with Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit; monsters that hit back hard every time you hit 'em are just mean. Also, monsters with Mage Slayer (requires an intelligent monster though; it's hard to rationalize a bear learning Spellcraft), Tripping, etc. can be nasty surprises, as can of course monsters with Pierce Magical Protection, Pierce Magical Concealment and the like. Then everything that reflects spells or gives them nasty saves (many beasts really should have Steadfast Determination; makes Will and Fort-save spells very inefficient on them forcing you to target their massive HP or their Reflex-save, both of which are hard targets).

And stuff that increases their Spell Resistance (Dragons especially have the wonderful Awaken Spell Resistance) and their ability saves, and things that give them Auras (there's a Frightful Presence-feat in Draconomicon that many beings should rightly have 'cause they're so out there that they're freakish to meet). Of course, they should take meta feats for their Spell-Like Abilities whenever possible, and Ability Focus is just awesome. Flyby Attack really makes flying opponents feel a bit more difficult, and Improved Flyby Attack is just groovy.

Ranks especially in Bluff, Use Magic Device and Intimidate (for charismatic monsters) can be put into very good use, and all the basic mobility stuff like Tumble, Balance, etc. is natural for Dexterous monsters. Hide and Move Silently are very potent, but especially potent with Darkstalker and huge modifiers, making it fully possible that PCs can't detect it, and if it happens to have HiPS through some means, they may be totally out of it. Sleight of Hand can be just stupid-mean; a monster snatching whatever super important items the PC has on in plain sight is just...eww. And of course, having high enough Spot/Listen to hit the epic DCs is mean; suddenly you have a monster that sees through your Wizard's illusions and can "see" invisibles. The other diplomatic skills along with hunting skills and such can be good for causing PCs trouble out-of-combat for the more intelligent and devious ones, of course (frame 'em for whatever crime, etc.).


Of course, boosting monsters defensively is generally better than offensively. I mean, giving them a certain amount of offense is all good, but if they start 1-hit-ko'ing players, it may be a tad unfun for the players. Same with stuff that totally hoses them from the left field without warnings or checks to identify them. Giving the monsters a variety of defenses along with attrition tactics and escape panic buttons really ups the interest of combat as they last a few rounds longer.

afroakuma
2009-01-18, 10:25 PM
The defensive is what I've been mostly striving for; higher SR, AC and saves.

I also need to deck these colossal saves people keep having. No fun trying SLAs on things that can ignore them.

Eldariel
2009-01-18, 10:29 PM
The defensive is what I've been mostly striving for; higher SR, AC and saves.

I also need to deck these colossal saves people keep having. No fun trying SLAs on things that can ignore them.

Save: Partial-effects are really good for that. As are dispels. Really though, saves are fairly easy to buff through magic; the most effective means past that is simply negating some of the magic buffing them. Or utilizing some other characters that provide penalties to saves, Hexblade-like.

Just make sure that the save-effects aren't too nasty early on, 'cause if the saves are going to be fail-most-of-the-time, they're going to succeed and it's not really cool to die to one bad die roll. Usually targeting a character's poor save with high DC effects works though. Still, it's understandable that characters try to minimize this weakness; having the Barbarian kill the rest of the party under Dominate is just epic fail.

afroakuma
2009-01-18, 10:33 PM
What I'd wanted to do was time-push his flying meat shield so that the casters he was holding would drop like stones. But his meat shield had a ridiculous Will save.

In the current battle, I can't get past a level 11's Fortitude save with a DC 26 effect - ever, since his bonus is +27. And that's before his morale boosts, which I did cut to ribbons.

Eldariel
2009-01-18, 10:45 PM
What I'd wanted to do was time-push his flying meat shield so that the casters he was holding would drop like stones. But his meat shield had a ridiculous Will save.

In the current battle, I can't get past a level 11's Fortitude save with a DC 26 effect - ever, since his bonus is +27. And that's before his morale boosts, which I did cut to ribbons.

Well, fractional saves would've helped a lot (fractional saves and BAB should really be standard rules); being able to get the +2 per save only once means that multiclassing gives you no random save-bonuses (the only random bonus it gives right now). Really, just play by the fractional rules and stupid high saves really drop.

And yea, there is a save a character is generally not supposed to fail. Druid and Cleric should never fail Will-saves for example; maxed Wis + high Will-progression + access to easy boosting magic means they should be in ridiculous spheres. Same with a Barbarian's Fort-saves; major Con, major Fort-saves and Con-boosting special. And it's usually doable to make a second save pretty huge too (or be a Druid and it'll be huge by default thanks to the Con-score of your Wildshape forms and good base progression).

It's generally the third save that's quite a bit weaker even on optimized characters. Of course, when optimized, this is generally Reflex-save (although some characters of course have good saves all around). And looking at his characters, the only truly ridiculous save there is Liam's Fort-save. All the others look to be solidly in the under-20 territory so DC 26 should be a 50/50 effect.

Keld Denar
2009-01-18, 11:00 PM
Yea...Liam is my tank. Hes designed to be a tank. Hes dependant on 2 stats (str and con) of which, his con adds to fort and will saves and AC. Hes got his dwarven racial bonus vs spells and spell likes, and his Occult Slayer bonus vs spells and spell likes. Hes designed NOT to die, and to a bit of damage while he's there. That is what a tank is supposed to do, and you are playing into it by only ever fighting him (although with the ogre mage, I can understand that hesitance to get too close to major dispelling). Traj is much more fragile, and Keld has rather low HP, unfortunately. But seriously, you be messin with the wrong dorf!

Plus, Liam's big trick, using an Urgrosh 2handed because its the only core weapon that you can combine the Uncanny Blow and Flurry of Strikes trick at once, and Dwarves get any easy in to it because they effectively get EWP: Urgrosh for free, which negates a human's bonus, they get bonus Con which gets soooo much use thanks to SD and Deepwarden, and in heavy armor, their movement is the same. Thus, dwarf is superior to human in almost every way for this build.

afroakuma
2009-01-18, 11:06 PM
Well, sure, but I had few options. Dandag's designed to attack with that wicked bow from a distance, and use stealth to get rid of major threats by pushing them into lost time. He's got no ability to attack Reflex saves; I switched out his beads of force for that fireball but that was it.

Granted, without all that blasted fog he'd have pincushioned Liam several times over. Then your precious Con score would have felt the burn.

Now go watch the final trial; Rei Jin's going to try to survive as long as possible against something terrifying. It should be epic.