Ultimate DC

[Bluelantern]

Saw the idea in a another forum. Do a "ultimate version" of the DC Comics universe, for a rpg setting.

What do you guys think? what would it look like?

[Yulian]

Like this: http://hallofheroes.free.fr/Html/goodies/wallpapers.htm

It's in French. Scroll down to "Fonds d'écran Ultimate DC"

Oh, here too: http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=151634

Glad to help!

- Yulian

[TheEmerged]

Well, let's assume you that by "Ultimate" you mean "reboot the continuity in the modern era with modern sensibilities, with little to no respect to the decades of pre-existing stories, and a few of (author's) pet peeves thrown in for good measure" and leave off all the "pointless sexing-up of characters" and "excuse to tell you basically the same stories that have already been written, but with more vulgar jokes" bits.

First, to fit this tone I'd have to avoid the 'Generations' bit of going ahead and putting the Big 3 back in the era of their creation (late 30's, early 40's) and having them age/avoid aging as necessary.

Second, while it may be possible to have a Justice Society in the 40's I think you'd have to establish that the JSA-era characters are dead and/or depicted as in their 80's and 90's. As much as I like the characters of Alan Scott, Jay Gerrick, and a few others they create problems in the continuity and I think you're better off without them running around.

So, some things I'd do?

1> There's still a JSA, with the JLA as an established part of it that acts as it's more military/combat effort within the society. As completely separate groups they're redundant, IMO.

2> Establish some of the modern Green Lantern rules (2 per sector, limited by power use not time, yellow impurity being a matter of experience/training) as having always been true.

3> Hal is dead, and is the Spectre. Yeah, I'm probably one of the three people that liked this idea. John Stewart is the Guardian of sector 2814 (you know, the way he was depicted at the end of Mosaic and to my knowledge this has never been explained?). Guy Gardner is dead, on the dustbin of history. Kyle and a new character are the Lanterns of this sector.

Whoops, time to leave work. I'll try to remember to come back and add more.

[Dalenthas]

Lesse, Ultimate Green Lantern would be Hal Stewart, with a big mix of both the Hal Jordan and John Stewart GLs. Green Lantern Corps are one GL per planet, rather than one per sector, to make more sense of Hal staying on Earth so damned much. He'd basically only leave when some really bad mojo was going down elsewhere. Also, redistribute the GLs to just this galaxy rather than the whole (admittedly small in DC) universe.

Ultimate Superman would work hard at maintaing his super awesome image, and Ultimate Lois Lane would pretty much be his personal PR rep.

That's all I've got.

(Oh, and sarcasm based on the crap the Ulitmate U thinks is "edgy" and "cool"):
Ultimate Batman would be openly gay, be litterally half-bat, and would kill people left and right using his explodarangs on regular thugs. And he's not gay with Robin (who's totally straight), but rather Alfred.

[Haven]

Or rather, they just insinuate Bruce/Alfred until Loeb gets his hands on the comic.

[Finn Solomon]

Just as the Ultimate books have the single unifying theme of Project Rebirth tying everything together, the Ultimate DC line would need something similar. Although the crash landing of Kal-El's ship and the arrival of the Super Man would be an obvious choice, it clashes with the God in hiding concept of the character itself. Superman doesn't want the world to know how he got here, he has a secret identity and keeps things to himself.

[Gavin Sage]

Guidelines for an "Ultimate" DCU:

1. General Inspiration: Supreme Power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squadron_Supreme_(Supreme_Power))=NO; DCAU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCAU)=YES

2. Superman: Should be the (almost) sole survivor of Krypton, ditto associated powers. Supergirl is a yes, to say Supes is not completely alone but she should be it to presevere Superman being special. Krypto, Kandor, Daxamites, and even Zod are a no. Let's keep one color of Kryptonite, with it being very rare to boot, like no more then five rocks total one with Bats, one with Lex, one with Metallo and the rest in slivers. Supes did not wear the costume until an adult in Metropolis, no Superboy unless its Connor Kent. Power creep is inevitable, but still should be 'normal' powers with no weird crap like so fast he can time travel by going FTL. A good reporter if a bit doofy in that persona, Lois doesn't know yet, Lex still wears a shirt and tie.

3. Batman: The Waynes went to see the Mask of Zorro in a retro-classic theatre. Robin is Tim Drake, or D-ick Grayson (stupid filter!) becomes Nightwing fairly quickly. Barbara Gordan can be Batgirl or Oracle. Cassadra Cain possible, but more tied to Bats if. No Damian. No Heath Ledger style villians, most Bat villians need to reflect madness as much as chaos and evil. Though Ra's having trained Bats is cool for an origin, but be sure Talia is in there too. Batman is a mysterious rumor to the general public, the cops know he exists but he is officially just a rumor.

4. Wonder Woman: I have no idea at all. Maybe temper the assertive amazon with being an outsider that doesn't quite understand the modern world. Play her almost as if an alien from another planet, though in this case from a myth oriented land. Themisycria not separated from the modern world simply by choice, but travel between the two is only recently possible.

5. Green Lantern: Multiple GLs are a must, and one must be Hal. Make it about the Green Lantern Corps, letting the wealth of awesome characters in. Rings recharge based on usage. GL sectors are galactic. Ditch the yellow as a weakpoint completely. Emotional spectrum might be brought in, depends on where that story leads to.

6. Cities: Should be on the map. Gotham and Metropolis should not be dueling New York City analogues, with NYC also in existence. Metropolis should be in the Mid West. Gotham works in NJ. Probably should replace a moderate sized real-life cities. This applies to all other DC fictional cities too.

7. The World: Not quite reality. Technology is more advanced in a consistent sort of way. Cities might have different and odder architecture. People know about Supes is an alien thus other weirdness is a bit more normal. Basically the superhero world rubbing off on the modern world, in contrast to Marvel where the modern world rubs off on the superhero one.

8. The Justice League: Big Seven should be present in some fashion, but with a larger roster. Should be big enough that the whole League rarely is called in on any one event. However not to the level of feeling like an army should they all be called up.

9. Other teams: JSA exists historically but may not be active currently. Teen Titans does not exist since it doesn't make sense for minors to have the autonomy and resources to organize like that. And older then eighteen stretches that teen part too far. I decry all notions of dropping the teen part or adult leadership. Other teams only exist in the background.

[Bluelantern]

Gavin... no offense, but on the other forum you got the exact opposite of half of your ideas o.o

Though they are interesting too, to make a more "unified DC", I don't think they have much of a Ultimate Spirit.

[Finn Solomon]

Guidelines for an "Ultimate" DCU:

4. Wonder Woman: I have no idea at all. Maybe temper the assertive amazon with being an outsider that doesn't quite understand the modern world. Play her almost as if an alien from another planet, though in this case from a myth oriented land. Themisycria not separated from the modern world simply by choice, but travel between the two is only recently possible.

I would have her be similar to Ultimate Thor, as a super feminist furthering her political aims while having her actual immortality/godhood be questioned by the general public. She has amazing abilities, but most think she is a 'normal' metahuman. Nobody believes in the Greek Gods any more and nobody but a select few has seen Thermiscyra.

[Bluelantern]

I would have her be similar to Ultimate Thor, as a super feminist furthering her political aims while having her actual immortality/godhood be questioned by the general public. She has amazing abilities, but most think she is a 'normal' metahuman. Nobody believes in the Greek Gods any more and nobody but a select few has seen Thermiscyra.

That was the idea sugested, and also that all magic would be questionable in the DC-ultimate version.

Just thought that would be interesting if she clashed with Capitain Marvel because of his "heretic claims" of having powers from gods.

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Green Lantern: They would be more like a police, having "police flaws" rather than the total moral guards that they are in regular version. The Lanterns and Rings would be more-like technological devices rather than looking like the magical things in regular DC. Political problems caused by having so many differents races in the same organization would be a important part of the story.

[Gavin Sage]

Gavin... no offense, but on the other forum you got the exact opposite of half of your ideas o.o

Though they are interesting too, to make a more "unified DC", I don't think they have much of a Ultimate Spirit.

Am I contradicting myself from somewhere else? My mind wanders like that sometimes at frightening speed.

Anyways I put Ultimate in quotes for a reason. Namely because what Marvel has as a working definition of Ultimate doesn't work for the DCU. The two worlds are different. You can't toy around too much with a guy like Supes without him loosing his essential meaning as Superman. He will cease to be Superman if you try to make him another flawed deconstruction of himself. If you are looking for a fully self contained and normal overall comic line, that doesn't work. Because in that case you have no original to establish your contrasting symetry.

I ignored the darker and edgier aspects of being Ultimate when constructing that list deliberately. Looking back at the earlier parts of USM and UXM I don't get the same feel I do from Ultimates. The darker and edgier stuff people imagine when they think of "Ultimate" is a later addition. And its ruining Marvel's Ultimate line, Ultimates 3 and even the second arc of 2 are nigh unreadable for all the pumping testosterone.

As for being realistic, that doesn't make much sense for the DCU because while it might pretend otherwise at the end of the day it is not reality. You know the plane catching scene in Superman Returns? Its a pretty iconic feat for Supes. Think of that sort of heroism in the context of 9/11. How do you deal with that event in a world where some of the biggest name heroes are an alien and a space cop. A world where being able to fly is less useful then being able to talk to fish.

Marvel on the other hand has always operated at a lower level for its biggest heroes. Spidey and Cap are great but they aren't going to catch planes out of the sky. Closest iconic case is Thor, who is more a warrior then anything else. Marvel has always operated much closer to reality then DC, its a thing that DC really can't do without changing at a very fundamental level.

Hence for the DCU an Ultimate line would not be like Marvels. We can see the Marvel take already via the Supreme Power series. If one wants to do a modern streamlining of the DCU, looking to the cartoons that birth Batman TAS, Superman TAS, and JLU provides a model. The rest goes largely into specifics.



I would have her be similar to Ultimate Thor, as a super feminist furthering her political aims while having her actual immortality/godhood be questioned by the general public. She has amazing abilities, but most think she is a 'normal' metahuman. Nobody believes in the Greek Gods any more and nobody but a select few has seen Thermiscyra.

Not bad, though not without its own problems. Thor as a crazy leftwing nut is good because its hilarious. And if anything subverts what we would expect because old must equal conservative. Does the subversion hold for Wonder Woman, and how deep into feminist sterotyping would it go, and have to to hold that premise.

The doubting the mythology connection isn't bad. Lot of stuff to be said on how modern society dogmatically worships science and how somebody walking right out of myth and magic cuts against that grain.

On a side note annoying thing is in DC metahuman is somewhat a late addition concept more or less swiped from the mutants over at Marvel. Most established characters have distinct origins, even those established since then. Heck I think homo magi has more character to its credit then straight metahuman. Still a workable idea though.

[Drinky Ogre]

Is it this forum by chance?

http://murpg.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=Supers&action=display&thread=6840&page=1

:smallbiggrin:

[TheEmerged]

I would have her be similar to Ultimate Thor, as a super feminist furthering her political aims...

Um, no. If anything, one of the things I like about the current run is that they've tweaked this "super feminist" stuff as strongly as it deserves. Granted I don't care for the mythological elements myself, but they're as much a part of the character as Superman being an alien.

[Dervag]

Calling Wonder Woman a feminist should be like calling a fish a waterist. Fish live in water. They need it. They take it for granted. They're all about water. But they're not fanatical about it, because they sort of take it for granted.

I can certainly see Wonder Woman as a gender-flipped version of the "traditional male" attitudes. Put her in the JLA and she will (should) automatically trust female characters over male ones, and expect female characters to be more competent and reliable, if not physically more powerful. She will automatically try to take charge of a group of men, in much the same way that a man in the 1930s or 1950s would (usually) automatically try to take charge of a group of women.

And she may get upset when the men around her don't play by the rules she expects. But that doesn't mean she's a man-hating "feminazi" of the sort that anti-feminists love to make strawmen of.

[Yulian]

The mention of Captain Marvel got me thinking.

Billy is mainlining the power of the Greco-Roman gods. Shazam himself channels that power such that he can endow his champions with the powers of different pantheons. He is a "living" (okay, ghostly) link to the Old Gods.

Don't you think this absolute knowledge is going to have some effect on a young man? Billy knows the old gods, he channels their power. Aside from Solomon, they're all Greco-Roman. Billy is a good boy, he is properly grateful to his patron and the powers he represents, since they allow him to do so much good for the world. Is it even possible Billy wouldn't end up a devout worshipper of these gods? Would Captain Marvel not make mention of and thank them for the use of their gifts in public?

With him and Diana on the scene (after some initial misunderstandings, of course), their potential influence could start to create a movement back toward the old gods again. It'd start small, but when that first temple to Zeus is built in Fawcett City...

And of course, let's not forget Black Adam and his living proof of the awesome might of the Heliopolitans. He even claims to be the reincarnation of an ancient ruler! The press has a field day, but suddenly, faiths thought long since dead start popping up again. The Heliopolitans, of course, approve heartily. Soon it may be time to dust off the scales and the Ma'at, for new souls may come to their realm for the first time in far too long. The old rivalries are set aside...for now, and the Egyptian gods start staking a claim in the new world next to their old "friends", the Greco-Roman pantheon.

And Captain Marvel is such a nice, forthright, heroic sort of figure, very...emulatable in his devotion. He's hard to attack publicly for his "pagan" beliefs. Wonder Woman may take some flack in the press, but she's so...inspirational to a lot of women.

You don't even need to add any ulterior or sinister motives here at all. It's just what it looks like. Two well-known, genuinely heroic figures who really do want to help people and make the world a better place. It's just their idea of that involves reawakening a religion decidedly at odds with the mainstream anywhere in the world.

Now that's some fascinating conflict.

- Yulian

[Bluelantern]

Good point the Captain Marvel...

...I even though another idea, involving if/when his identity is discovered, with causes some caos in his life (of course), while many Heroes start doubting a 10 year old, "his" religion actually suffers a boost, as many people associate his true age with inocence and purity, many actually comparing him to a sort of messiah.

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Some ideas that I had to a ultimate DC would have Ras'Al'Gul being a unnifying element in Batman, with many villains having origin related with the lazarus pit and its chemicals, one of those pits exist in Gothan.

Batman existence would inspire many people to be super-heroes/vigilantes sometimes for the good, sometimes for the worst, this would be a likely origin for many of Batman-family members.