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hamishspence
2009-01-18, 04:00 PM
Given Devils are easier, I'd say result if they were destroyed would be massive demon invasion.

If demons were badly devastated, Abyss would create more.

Oslecamo
2009-01-18, 04:03 PM
If the adventurer's are powerfull enough to raze down all of the nine hells, then they probably are also strong enough to destroy the Abyss, or at least seal it down.

Does the boss of the devils even has stats?

Pandaren
2009-01-18, 04:05 PM
Given Devils are easier, I'd say result if they were destroyed would be massive demon invasion.

If demons were badly devastated, Abyss would create more.

I doubt any adventurers would have that kind of power, even the Elder Evils would have tough time trying to shift the odds one way or another.


And how are devils "easier", just because you things demons are cooler or whatever, doesn't make devils "easier".

hamishspence
2009-01-18, 04:07 PM
was thinking more of a "reduced to so few they'll never recover before the other side launches attack"

the suggestion in the other thread was a magical plague.

and 666 layers, many infinite, outweighs 9, all finite.

Asmodeus has stats in BoVD- his aspect has stats in Fiendish Codex 2. Though the BoVD one could be argued as just a better aspect.

Fiendish Codex 2 explains why Serpents Coil doesn't have to have a miles-long Asmodeus- his plummet carved it out.

Pandaren
2009-01-18, 04:11 PM
If someone could actaully manage to redeem all evil in humanoids in the material plane, then the devils number would dip a bit in a few decades, but, that would also be impossible.

ChaosDefender24
2009-01-18, 04:13 PM
the Blood War is all that was keeping the evil outsiders from conquering the Upper Planes; either side is strong enough to do this single-handedly. Especially with the help of the yugoloths, the demons would easily do this, completely screw over the good-evil axis, and bring the entire multiverse back into darkness.

arguskos
2009-01-18, 04:21 PM
I doubt any adventurers would have that kind of power, even the Elder Evils would have tough time trying to shift the odds one way or another.


And how are devils "easier", just because you things demons are cooler or whatever, doesn't make devils "easier".
Actually, yeah, the devils are in fact easier to eradicate/neutralize than the demons. For example, one group is infinite, the other is finite (Fiendish Codices mention this). You can't kill an infinite amount of badguys. Eventually, they'd overrun you. You can, however, kill off a finite number (even a very large one), since they don't replenish faster than they can be killed.

The idea here is that a magical genophage slaughters/neutralizes one side of the Blood War (realistically, this would be the devils, since even the best plague ever couldn't get every demon). What happens then?

I personally think that whoever was left would rapidly decimate the cosmos. Either side has sufficient power (god forbid the demons EVER organize, since if they ever did, not even the Blood War could stop them). Frankly, I'd love to see a campaign about this, since it'd be the most awesome thing ever.

hamishspence
2009-01-18, 04:21 PM
Fiendish Codex 2 stresses that heros should be worried about damaging the devils too much, because of the danger of the demons.

That would suggest, for a sufficiently epic group, thats co-opted a lot of support, it is more possible to hurt Hell than The Abyss.

Though the Far Realm has creatures of great size and power- hmm- Upper Planes + Far Realm vs Abyss ?

Mikeavelli
2009-01-18, 04:27 PM
The thing about the Blood War is...

Despite the Size of the Planes, it's the Primes that matter.

Now, there's an infinite number of Prime Material worlds out there..

Each and every one of these worlds has, in varying degrees, representations of the alignments. When the Chaotic evil, or the Lawful Evil (respectively) sods die, their souls fly off to the Abyss or Baator, to eventually become either food or reinforcements for the blood war.

Now, there are so MANY of these little poor souls, which become "larvae" - that they're used as food, currency, and entertainment in addition to eventually developing into new and interesting forms of fiendish life.

----

Why is this important, you ask?

It's because, in a pinch, each of these larvae could be promoted up through the ranks with astonishing swiftness, quickly refilling the ranks of any number of defeated demons and devils.

And it moves up from there too, any given fiend has thousands of just as qualified subordinates waiting for him to screw up or show a moment of weakness so they can get promoted. When some meddlesome adventurer kills a Pit Fiend? Oh well, that's one more position that can be filled by some other fiend.

You killed Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine? Mephistopheles steps up to the plate.

You killed him too? And all the other Lords? They've only got another couple thousand Nobles who've been chomping at the bit for this kind of opportunity for the past millennium.

The basic premise of the Blood War is that it's just so impossibly huge that the Player Characters shouldn't be able to affect it directly, no matter how many fiends they write up in the dead-book.

-----

Now of course, you're dealing with Planescape here - if the Players were to bring about a worlds-wide philosophical shift, convincing whole worlds that one form of evil or the other was, in fact, weaker... That might do it.

arguskos
2009-01-18, 04:31 PM
Fiendish Codex 2 stresses that heros should be worried about damaging the devils too much, because of the danger of the demons.

That would suggest, for a sufficiently epic group, thats co-opted a lot of support, it is more possible to hurt Hell than The Abyss.
Here's a way to do it: get Cania, the 8th Layer; open a gate or five to the Abyss. Invite the demon lords to come and visit. Will it devastate the devils? No. Will it weaken them? Damn right. If the right people THEN make a concentrated push on the devils, it might be enough to destroy them, esp with demons on both fronts, and celestial armies applying even MORE pressure, it could totally happen.

As for the Far Realm, nope, can't be done. The entities that rule the Far Realm can't be understood or contacted by mortals, much less brought to bear in lesser conflicts. And frankly, even IF you could get a Far Realm army to fight the demons, the difficulty of reinforcing it would end in the demons overrunning it.

I think the best plan in the case of devils being mostly killed off, Hell being destroyed, and demons running amok is to ally every mortal world you can with the celestial and the alignment planes (Mechanus and Limbo). See, Mechanus can provide the inevitables and modrons, which replenish fast enough to provide a powerful reserve of troops. Limbo would suffer under demon rule too, so the slaadi might send warriors (of course, they may not, so that's a toss up). The celestials would be the core forces, but they can't do it alone (same issue as with the demons: lawfulness can be broken with correct applications of chaos; demons define evil chaos). I think mortals would provide the bulk of the warriors in this conflict, actually.

EDIT: to the above post, yeah, basically, though FC2 does mention something that might hinder the promotion trick you mentioned. See, it seems that in order to promote someone, you need a reserve of souls. Even with a fast replenish rate, you might just run out at some point. Especially with that philosophical shift you mentioned.

hamishspence
2009-01-18, 04:34 PM
sounds like, not so much destroying one side, as helping one side to destroy the other. Which is more plausible.

Far Realm entities might take an interest on their own: some of the powerful beings described in Lords of Madness are of the Far Realm (The Nine-Tongued Worm) and would be interested in big events on the planes.

chiasaur11
2009-01-18, 04:55 PM
Wait.

I thought Epic spellcasting could destroy an infinite amount of targets.

Not that a level 21 could do it, but if you outleveled Asmodeus...

I figure you could one shot the war.

Oslecamo
2009-01-18, 04:57 PM
Far Realm entities might take an interest on their own: some of the powerful beings described in Lords of Madness are of the Far Realm (The Nine-Tongued Worm) and would be interested in big events on the planes.

Ah, the Far Realm... If I remember the 3.0 manual of the planes correctly, for the DM to include the Far Realm in the universe, is to aknowledge that there are much worse groups out there than devils and demons.

In theory, they simply laugh at our laws. They can have impossible forms, travel trough time and space at ease and much more stuff that no mind out of the Far Realm can grasp, be it mortal or immortal.

The only reason why they still didn't conquer us it's because they're really really far away, so untill some idiot opens a big portal and allows for said monstruosities to pour in big numbers, we're relatively safe.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-18, 05:11 PM
Actually, yeah, the devils are in fact easier to eradicate/neutralize than the demons. For example, one group is infinite, the other is finite (Fiendish Codices mention this).
Blech, always hated that ... just because they wanted to get rid of satanic references (ie. no more 666).

Avor
2009-01-18, 05:42 PM
If the adventurer's are powerfull enough to raze down all of the nine hells, then they probably are also strong enough to destroy the Abyss, or at least seal it down.

Does the boss of the devils even has stats?

Each lord of the 9 levels of hell do have stats. I think they are in the Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells

Anyways, if the blood war ended, the victoriious side would have the forces to wage war on the good gods and earth itself.

Oslecamo
2009-01-18, 06:44 PM
Each lord of the 9 levels of hell do have stats. I think they are in the Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells


They are of his aspect, not of Asmodeus the big boss himself. He never shows up his true face, using aspects to rule from a distance, wich is quite understandable. Remember that the other 8 lords once tought they had managed to kill him, only to see him appear again some time later, showing that they had destroyed nothing more than an aspect of him.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-01-18, 06:55 PM
The devils can never win. The abyss is infinitely large, so even if they sent all of their troops to occupy it, they would never succeed.

SmartAlec
2009-01-18, 07:27 PM
If the Devils are destroyed and Demons invate the Hells, the Hells suddenly shift to Chaotic Evil, the Neutral Evil planes are crushed as the forces keeping the Hells and the Abyss seperate weaken and fail, the Chaotic Good planes are no longer balanced by the Lawful Evil - and the whole thing ends up with a high danger of the Great Ring collapsing in on itself.

Eldariel
2009-01-18, 07:35 PM
Well, Demons are Chaotic, so it's completely impossible to truly organize a real decisive attack on Hells for them. That's how the whole cosmology seems to be built: The least in numbers are the good guys, but they've got the whole unity-not-fighting-each-other-being-goody-two-shoes going on for them, meaning they're also the most formidable together. Then come the lawful evils, which while having one controlled aspect are also evil and thus constantly plot against each other fight amidst themselves too. And then there're the chaotic evils which are just immense in numbers, but there's little semblance of any kind of coordination or unity in their ranks unless something vastly more powerful is forcing them...and when they are in sufficient numbers, there is no power that could control them.

TheCountAlucard
2009-01-18, 07:58 PM
and 666 layers, many infinite, outweighs 9, all finite.

Not to be the poop in anyone's Cheerios here, but technically, the Nine Hells is infinite, too - it has to be, or it wouldn't be a plane.

Oslecamo
2009-01-18, 08:49 PM
Not to be the poop in anyone's Cheerios here, but technically, the Nine Hells is infinite, too - it has to be, or it wouldn't be a plane.

Infinite empty space is not really that usefull. The abyss keeps going and going down and there's also something else buried beneath, but Hell has limits after wich there is nothing else in the plane.

Siosilvar
2009-01-18, 09:04 PM
They are of his aspect, not of Asmodeus the big boss himself. He never shows up his true face, using aspects to rule from a distance, wich is quite understandable. Remember that the other 8 lords once tought they had managed to kill him, only to see him appear again some time later, showing that they had destroyed nothing more than an aspect of him.

Asmodeus's stats are as follows:

YOU LOSE. BIG TIME.

Altima
2009-01-18, 09:24 PM
Well, let's consider the forces involved:

Demons, mostly Tanar'ri. Chaotic evil. Extremely chaotic, with no unified 'ruler'. The only control in the Abyss either stems from god-ruled layers (former Demonweb Pits, for example) or demons who have become so powerful, they can control one or more layers. Fight with each other probably more often than with the devils (simply because demons are closer).

Exceptional individuals include Demogorgan, the most powerful of the Demon Princes, who controls several layers. There's Grazz't, who also controls several layers and had the power to imprison a goddess. There's Orcus, who is a demon prince of the undead (undead and demons? Fun). There are others, of course, including the demons who became so powerful, they eventually gained a spark of divinity (such as the gnoll god).

Devils are mainly comprised of baatezu. They live in the Nine Hells. Lawful evil. Extremely competent tacticians, allowing them to send hundreds of troops to stave off millions of demons. They are finite, but very crafty (and very, very paranoid). They're ruled by the Archdukes and, ultimately, by Asmodeus, who is one of the most powerful beings in the multiverse. There are, of course, various gods within the Hells themselves.

Now, let's consider the Blood War. It's lasted since forever, and will keep going, if everyone in the multiverse has a saying in it, as it keeps the nasties busy with each other.

Considering the nature of demons, the devils actually have the ability to outnumber them tactically. After all, there are Nine Hells, all working, more or less, together. Most Demon Princes only control less than half a dozen levels of the Abyss. This means the forces at their disposal are finite (until they can be replenished). They are also unable to send out the full brunt of their forces as if they weaken themselves too much, their neighbors will happily backstab them.

There are just so many demons attacking all at once, however, so the devils are stretched thin in an eternal tug of war. The demons attack, are weakened, the devils counter-attack, the demons see the devils making ground, band together (it is a philosophical war, after all), drive the devils back with horrendous fighting, the demons fall to infighting due to losses, elevate some new rulers, then they start the whole cycle over again.

A few factors to consider.

One, Asmodeus has been taking the most powerful, most elite devils since the start of the Blood War to Nessus. Nessus almost never commits its forces to battles in the Blood War because Asmodeus is saving his devils for the 'final battle'. In a direct fight and in a worst case scenario, Asmodeus can literally wear down adventurers and even gods by simply zerging them with pit fiends. Which would be an awesome visual.

The second is the paranoia levels of the devils. See what Mephistopholes did to root out descension in his own ranks. Or even what Asmodeus did when the Dukes rebelled. Heck, if someone tried to open a permanant portal from the Abyss to the Hells, they'd probably trigger some ancient, epic-level spell trap that'd redirect the portal right onto the caster's Prime.

Besides, it wouldn't be hard for the devils to replenish their numbers. After all, they could simply have a, erm, breeding fair with any humanoids that pass through to create a small army of half-fiends. They won't stand up to much, but they'd make great cannon fodder.

Prometheus
2009-01-18, 09:50 PM
Extremely competent tacticians, allowing them to send hundreds of troops to stave off millions of demons. They are finite, but very crafty (and very, very paranoid)...Now, let's consider the Blood War. It's lasted since forever, and will keep going, if everyone in the multiverse has a saying in it, as it keeps the nasties busy with each other.
Altima has a good point about the devils being difficult to destroy, but the fact that the devils are able to keep the demons at bay mean that it is quite possible for a similarly powerful and tactical force to accomplish the same task - even as they go against a near infinite number that infinitely replenishes in a relatively short span of time. Should the devils ever be destroyed, it is possible that Celestia, Mechanus, Limbo, and Material planes can keep them at bay as well - even if it is a much more dire strategic position that prevents those parties from doing much else. This would be an interesting setting for an epic campaign to be set in - I imagine them being tasked with winning an impossible war that has been in stalemate for centuries even as the Slaadi are thinking (or whatever passes for thinking there) about passing the buck and ducking out.

Vexxation
2009-01-18, 10:04 PM
*lots of neat things*

On the same line of thought as the Devils being master tacticians, they also make excellent schemers. It probably would not be difficult to imagine the Devils playing the Demons against either each other, the Celestials, Mechanus, or Prime in order to further divide forces. And the Demons are so... impulsive and rash, and generally psychotic in nature that they'd probably go for if they imagined they had a chance.

So, for an adventuring party to play the hard way and have Devils win...
1) Create massive Lawful Evil churches, societies, etc. Teach people that atrocities are justified if they maintain order. This creates more Lawful Evil societies and thus citizens who, upon death, can aid the fight.

2) Wait a really long time. Many thousands of years is desirable. Elan PCs or some way to prevent death by age is good here. Elans or Immortality are preferable to the psionic power Suspend Life because it allows more day-to-day interaction with your Lawful Evil societies. After a really long time, your influence will have bolstered the Hells' forces considerably. They might even say "thanks." During this really long time you accomplish stages 3a and 3b.

3a) Diplomacy and/or GateRape a bunch (or, say, a few thousand) Solars and other high-level Celestials into undying servitude from then on. Let them go about their business until a predetermined date in the future.

3b) This one's harder. Either convince the Slaads to create a plan and stick to it, or get Mechanus to rally against the Abyss. It might be easier to just use your army of Solars to Wish up a massive amount of Helms of Opposite Alignment and just keep popping them on Slaads until the plane is populated by mostly Lawful creatures. This will take a long time. Like, I don't even want to think about it.

4) Okay, so now you've got your army of Celestials and your army of Slaads or Inevitables. Or maybe all three. Now, the party splits up and simultaneously all open Permanent Gates to the Abyss in Mechanus, Limbo, and the Celestia or whatever it's called.

5) Cue massive invasion by all of your armies, followed shortly by entire population of Hells charging in, using the impeccable tactics of the Devils. Of course, the Inevitables and changed Slaads are also Lawful, and would have no problem following tactics sent forth by the Devils. As for the Solars, they're under your command anyway. They'll do what you tell them.

6) Extermination of all Demons, starting at the bottom of the Abyss and working up. By the hundredth layer or so, the entire army will be massively leveled from the kills. Eventually, it will be even more a force to be reckoned with. Once the vast majority of Demons are slain...

7) Prevention. Establish Lawful ruling societies in every part of the Material Plane. Before executing a Chaotic, pop a Helm of Opposite Alignment onto him until he's Lawful. Then execute him andway, because you're Lawful Evil. No more dead Chaotics. Haha. Slay every Demon that wanders near a Devil Abyssal Outpost.

8) The future. With your new Devil allies, you plan the next war. Cue GateRape for a few more thousand years, followed by a huge number of Solars rebelling against the Upper Planes, aided by the Devils.


Now, this all requires that the Gods don't pay attention to the mortals. As long as they don't watch what you're doing or care what happens, it would be doable with enough time. And hey, an Elan is forever.

bosssmiley
2009-01-19, 06:26 AM
Asmodeus's stats are as follows:

YOU LOSE. BIG TIME. No save.

Amended. :smallwink:

Asmodeus, as statted by DiceFreaks (http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH9.pdf) (pdf link). CR: 81.

As for ending knocking out one or other side of the Blood War. The neighbouring planar powers (either the armies of Acheron and the Yugoloths, or the Slaad and the exiles of Carceri, or some pantheonic deity with pretensions to being a fundamental power of the universe) would probably expand to fill the cosmological gap. The alternative? Ragnorak.

Dacia Brabant
2009-01-19, 09:26 AM
5) Cue massive invasion by all of your armies, followed shortly by entire population of Hells charging in, using the impeccable tactics of the Devils.

Great plan except for one flaw: what's keeping the Devils from double-crossing you once you've led the armies of the Upper and Neutral planes into the Abyss? That's the moment where I would think Asmodeus would turn the tables and send his armies into the Primes if not the Upper Planes while you're stuck way down at the bottom of the Abyss.


Personally I think the Blood War is something that should be eternal (I'm looking at you, 4e Forgotten Realms :smallannoyed: ) since more than anything else it's a metaphysical/philosophic war. The only way I would see it ending is if the Yugoloths all side with one or the other (most likely with the Demon Princes if they were able to control them), which they might at the end but that would be an Apocalyptic event. That might be an interesting epic level campaign actually, especially if the PCs were each a representative of a plane in the alliance to stop the Apocalypse.

Eldan
2009-01-19, 09:44 AM
How the hell did Wizards get the idea that there is a finite amount of devils? I liked the explanation that there are Aleph0 baatezu and Aleph1 tanar'ri much better...

Anyway: The problem with shifting entire planes, like Limbo, is that a new plane would spring up. I mean, erradicating Limbo is nice, but as long as there are mortals believing in chaos, something new would come along.
I like the idea of promoting a lawful empire slightly better as an idea (even though I hate the idea of strenghtening the devils as much as anything), but what about the following scenario:

We have one group both trying to start a planar empire and rooting out chaos: the Harmonium. They even attacked the Abyss in the War of Iron.
Now, I would try to further strenghten the Harmonium, by taking over it's Leadership (which should be possible for an immortal of any kind, in the long run). Now, I would have to try to both expand the operations in Mechanus to shift the layer back to Arcadia. Try to win over the Archons, perhaps. Spread the Harmonium Empire from Ortho to other worlds. Will take a few millenia, but hey, immortal.
So, yeah.
I don't like lawful alignments, and would prefer Chaotic good to win, but the tanar'ri are just as bad as lawfu evil.

Also, I don't think anything will ever convince the General of Gehenna to choose a single side.
Well, he probably would join the Demons to keep the war going in the example above.

hamlet
2009-01-19, 11:19 AM
First, before you got within a thousand miles of unbalancing the Blood War in any way, let alone how you described, the Upper Planes would come down on you with the full force of all the powers of Good. Probably the Neutral planes as well.

If you did manage to do it, though, it would result in nothing short of the destruction of reality. The forces of Good and Neutrality simply do not have the numbers to stand up against what would be an infinite tide of evil (Demons or Devils) and even the Solars (which at least in 2ed were nearly Powers themselves) would not be able to hold against the flood for long.

The Great Wheel would probably devolve into utter chaos and darkness.

After that was done, the Prime Material would be done for as the restrictions holding the Demons/Devils out of that place would be gone, and if the Powers of Good and Neutrality had no chance, what do you think are Elminster's chances against the assembled powers of evil?

Vexxation
2009-01-19, 11:19 AM
Great plan except for one flaw: what's keeping the Devils from double-crossing you once you've led the armies of the Upper and Neutral planes into the Abyss?

Presumably, if I were going to spend thousands of years gathering an army to help the Devils spread their Lawful Evil influence throughout the planes, I'd have written up a contract with them. Preferably with Asmodeus himself. I mean, I know that even an Epic wizard is like a mere fly beneath his heel, but if you have four Elan wizards, all with access to Epic Casting, Gate, and MindRape, and a preeeetty solid plan for putting the Devils on top, he might listen and agree not to kill you just yet.

Also, in this scenario, the wizards aren't just doing it to end the Blood War. Oh no. They're doing it to weaken the very balance of the planes. My wizards want the Devils to invade and successfully crush Mechanus, Limbo, everything, really. They don't need to invade the Material Plane due to almost, if not everyone being Lawful Evil already. Nothing to gain other than a dominion that's pretty much already theirs.

Eldan
2009-01-19, 11:42 AM
Well, the problem is, isn't that what the devils were trying to do for millenia now? I mean, it's the thing they do, trying to make as much of the prime Lawful Evil as possible.
At least the Eladrin would try to stop them. Possible the Seelie Court, then of course the tanar'ri themselves. Oh, and the Rilmani. They can screw you up when you try to unbalance the alignments.

Talya
2009-01-19, 11:48 AM
I love the entire concept of the Blood War.

I love that aeons ago, a group of lawful celestials were sent to combat the swirling, primordial chaos and prevent it from overrunning all existence...and that all these countless ages later, they still dutifully and diligently perform this neverending role, despite the toll it has taken on them. I love that all the multiverse owes its very existence to Hell itself, which fights an eternal war it can never win, only break even. There's a certain nobility to the Devils in this setting, one that cannot be taken away by how twisted and corrupt and evil they've become. It gives you some sympathy to go with your terror.

Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name. But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game.

Vexxation
2009-01-19, 11:53 AM
Well, the problem is, isn't that what the devils were trying to do for millenia now? I mean, it's the thing they do, trying to make as much of the prime Lawful Evil as possible.
At least the Eladrin would try to stop them. Possible the Seelie Court, then of course the tanar'ri themselves. Oh, and the Rilmani. They can screw you up when you try to unbalance the alignments.

Ah, but the Devils didn't think about GateRape. Really, is there any problem it can't solve?

Fawsto
2009-01-19, 12:10 PM
Now, pehaps I've already been completely ninja'd, but I should say this:

The Abyss is Infinite right? Big thing on their side, infinite numbers and everything blah, blah blah... Now, you've to remember that this is also a big thing on the side of the Devils there. If there are infinite layers and every layer is infinite itself it means that it is IMPOSSIBLE to gather all it's forces at once. I mean, the Abyss will never fight with full numbers, ever, since their forces are scattered around an infinity of obscure and infinite (o.O) layers while the Devils, while imprisoned on a finite plane, can bring their full forces to the fight whenever they want. They will fight with organized forces all the time while facing unorganized Demonic forces, that probably fight, most of the time, in warbands or hordes, both very chaotic (by their nature) and counting only in numbers to win. Now, see where I am going? Yeah they have infinite numbers! Hurray! But wait, they can't bring their infinite numbers to the party at any time, so they would be pretty much screwed if their numbers were not infinite, since the advantage would be in the Devil's side.

Besides that, I believe Asmodeus is the Biggest issue out there... If I am not mistaken he is the most powerful of the Demons and Devils alltogether as they are displayed at the BoVD, meaning whenever a Demon prince is about to do something nasty to the Devils, Asmodeus just have to wave his hand to stop anything. Of course, if you get a few Demon princes to fight him... Well, they can't, they are too busy fighting eachother to focus on the Big Mo fo in the Throne out there.

Heliomance
2009-01-19, 12:17 PM
Well, the problem is, isn't that what the devils were trying to do for millenia now? I mean, it's the thing they do, trying to make as much of the prime Lawful Evil as possible.
At least the Eladrin would try to stop them. Possible the Seelie Court, then of course the tanar'ri themselves. Oh, and the Rilmani. They can screw you up when you try to unbalance the alignments.

Wouldn't be surprised if the Unseelie Court got involved as well. They don't want demons and devils mucking up their playground!

hamlet
2009-01-19, 12:32 PM
Always been a personal fan of the intimation in one of the Planescape books (Faces of Evil I think) that said that the Blood War was little more than a massive smoke screen for "SOMETHING ELSE" by the Yugoloths, aka, Undisputed Masters of the Long Game.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-01-19, 01:20 PM
Presumably, if I were going to spend thousands of years gathering an army to help the Devils spread their Lawful Evil influence throughout the planes, I'd have written up a contract with them. Preferably with Asmodeus himself. I mean, I know that even an Epic wizard is like a mere fly beneath his heel, but if you have four Elan wizards, all with access to Epic Casting, Gate, and MindRape, and a preeeetty solid plan for putting the Devils on top, he might listen and agree not to kill you just yet.

You've already lost.

The moment you decide to enter into a contract with the devils, let alone Asmodeus, you've consigned yourself to damnation at his hands. And probably failure too. There are literally small armies of modrons/inevitables whose sole task are to try and find the loopholes in a contract Asmodeus made to try and discover how he may try to screw someone over and none of them have ever succeeded.

More importantly Asmodeus does not want the Blood War to end, officially, but rather to put it off for a brief alliance with the demons, as many as he can get to agree to it, to assault the Upper Planes. That's what the Nessus Legion is reserved for because that will also be the effective End of Days because after that there won't be Good or good anymore. Just evil and which side comes out on top, which will likely be the devils considering the simple fact that all they would need is to take the very first layer and hold it and they'll have gained an immense advantage since demons will no longer be able to bring their full numbers to bear and the Abyss itself might just accept this new change like it accepted the demons replacing their forebearers.

More importantly, if anyone knows how to kill the Heart of the Abyss it's Asmodeus or one of the other Ancients.

hamishspence
2009-01-19, 01:26 PM
Thats only Pact Certain from Fiendish Codex 2. An agreement is not the same thing.

in Savage Tide campaign in Dungeon, the eladrins, and some demons, and other parties, all team up to thwart Demogorgon. a Devils + Celestials + Adventurers team-up could work same way.

Murderous Hobo
2009-01-19, 02:54 PM
Just a musing, but if the lawful evil side of the wheel would be weakened, the center would shift move up towards lawful good. The most chaotic evil planes would slide into hell and the lawful good planes would be become primes.

It'd also mean there would be something more extreme where the old lawful-good planes where and the lawful evil planes would become far-out planes.

Vexxation
2009-01-19, 03:13 PM
You've already lost.

The moment you decide to enter into a contract with the devils, let alone Asmodeus, you've consigned yourself to damnation at his hands. And probably failure too. There are literally small armies of modrons/inevitables whose sole task are to try and find the loopholes in a contract Asmodeus made to try and discover how he may try to screw someone over and none of them have ever succeeded.

First, I never said I would wager my soul as a bargaining chip. The bargain would be this: "I'm going to raise up huge armies of Mindraped or otherwise coerced soldiers of the Good and Neutral Planes. I'm going to cast my influence on the civilized realms and bend them to my cause. I'm going to end the Blood War with your help. That's my contribution. Your contribution, Asmodeus, is to organize your forces for one last concentrated assault. Once the Demons are overwhelmed, we regroup, rebuild our armies, and move on to the Upper Planes." It may not be in legalese, but I would never make it an offer of Damnation.

Secondly, you don't really understand what I'm trying to accomplish. By ending the Blood War, I'd be working only to propagate Lawful Evil. That's it. There's no winning, no losing, there is only one simple truth, one core idea: Spread the Devils' influence to all other planes. If he betrays me during the war against the Demons, he's cutting off his own arm, because then all the forces under my control become useless to him. If he betrays me afterward, then what I wanted is done, the War is over, and the overwhelming forces of organized evil will overtake the Upper Planes. Lawful Evil dominates, and the Multiverse plunges into tyranny and darkness. I'll watch from my fiery prison within the Hells, laughing with a mad glee.

Mission Accomplished.

TheCountAlucard
2009-01-19, 03:34 PM
...Your contribution, Asmodeus...

There's your trouble. Asmodeus doesn't care about the Blood War. The forces he sends are little more than token contributions to something he doesn't care about. It's like dropping a quarter into one of those donation jars on restaurant counters, the ones that benefit some charity or another that you've never even heard of.

Talk it over with someone who cares, like Bel. He may not be the most powerful devil, but he's obsessed with winning the Blood War.

Asmodeus may be interested in your proposition, but the fact that you're using your ideas to win the Blood War just might make him lose interest.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-01-20, 09:19 AM
First, I never said I would wager my soul as a bargaining chip. The bargain would be this: "I'm going to raise up huge armies of Mindraped or otherwise coerced soldiers of the Good and Neutral Planes. I'm going to cast my influence on the civilized realms and bend them to my cause. I'm going to end the Blood War with your help. That's my contribution. Your contribution, Asmodeus, is to organize your forces for one last concentrated assault. Once the Demons are overwhelmed, we regroup, rebuild our armies, and move on to the Upper Planes." It may not be in legalese, but I would never make it an offer of Damnation.

Your intent is meaningless. His is everything and while your 'bargain' won't be in legalese, the contract you'll be signing to get his help (if you even get it) is going to be and that's why you have lost. See below for some more clarification.


Secondly, you don't really understand what I'm trying to accomplish. By ending the Blood War, I'd be working only to propagate Lawful Evil. That's it. There's no winning, no losing, there is only one simple truth, one core idea: Spread the Devils' influence to all other planes. If he betrays me during the war against the Demons, he's cutting off his own arm, because then all the forces under my control become useless to him. If he betrays me afterward, then what I wanted is done, the War is over, and the overwhelming forces of organized evil will overtake the Upper Planes. Lawful Evil dominates, and the Multiverse plunges into tyranny and darkness. I'll watch from my fiery prison within the Hells, laughing with a mad glee.

I understand perfectly what you are trying to accomplish, but you are not understanding what you are getting into. There is winning and losing based on your definitions of them and the legalese contract you'd be signing to get his help. It could be something as simple (for Asmodeus) as 'if the demon forces take this outpost during the third celestial rotation of martial plane planet 112 while Bel's 4th legion make an assault on Thanatos to deal 68% losses and Mephistopheles stages another coup to dethrone the entity known as Asmodeus at the climax of a third engagement on Pazuzu then the signee forfeits all mentally controlled or otherwise treaty-bound, magical or otherwise, forces to the armies of Baator and, unless he enacts the Fourth Paradigm that supports Celestia, his soul as well.' In the small term this is a loss for Asmodeus since one battle is lost, he needs to put down a coup, engage in third battle all based around the celestial year of some unnamed and uninhabited material plane world but if said outpost's guards is mysteriously re-assigned to Bel's 4th to ensure the precision damages needed and Mephistopheles is assigned to deal with Pazuzu to weaken the planning for his coup scheme then it's an overall win for Asmodeus because he gets your mind-raped legions, your allies, and the Blood War he only cares about for supremacy over evil continues which just maintains the status quo with the added perk that he know has much more forces and has substantially weakened good. Not to mention gaining a powerful epic soul to process for divine energy/whatever he wants to do with it.

Those are the sort of things you'd be knowingly engaging with, and those are things that I thought up and I am no super-genius Alignment-Entity. Pages of that, which to you, would seem like a poor idea to do because they seem harmful but Asmodeus plans hundred of thousands if not millienia in advance (and example would be saving a single child from a burning building so one of his ancestors far far far down the genetic crapshoot of life will end up condemning an entire material plane world to Asmodeus).

And there is no 'if'. If Asmodeus consented to something like this, then it would end up being his victory in the end and not yours because it's worth more to him if the multiverse sees it as his victory. There's no room for two spot-lights but rather then just push someone out of it Asmodeus would probably slit your throat, desecrate the corpse, animate the body as an undead servitor, damn the soul and erase the memory of anyone who had ever heard of you just to make sure it was his victory and not yours.


Mission Accomplished.

Yes, but whose? Which is my entire point. And yes, the Asmodeus fan-boy rant is over.

Lappy9000
2009-01-20, 09:25 AM
....this whole conversation is so nerdy it hurts.

But then again, it's just so awesome :smallcool:

Eldan
2009-01-20, 09:28 AM
Also, Asmodeus would write the entire contract in Infernal, an entire language based on being, on the one hand, so complex only someone studying it for millenia can understand everything and on the other hand made only for contracts full of things that are to Asmodeus' advantage.

WJLIII3
2009-01-20, 12:45 PM
Here's a way to do it: get Cania, the 8th Layer; open a gate or five to the Abyss. Invite the demon lords to come and visit. Will it devastate the devils? No. Will it weaken them? Damn right. If the right people THEN make a concentrated push on the devils, it might be enough to destroy them, esp with demons on both fronts, and celestial armies applying even MORE pressure, it could totally happen.

Just pointing out semantics here, but there's no way the Celestials would ever help anyone destroy Hell. In fact, if the Demons started pouring into Cania, the Solars would be the first ones on the scene to close the gates and kill the demons. The Celestials aren't idiots, they know the Blood War is their only hope of survival, and they've been working for eons to keep it going.

Fawsto
2009-01-20, 01:07 PM
Hmmm... Bother to explain why exactly the forces of Good would be so outnumbered by the forces of evil? I mean, I can accept it enterely, so I am just after some explanation on the numbers and facts. Really, I don't remember if any of the Good planes is infinite or not, so I don't know anything about their numbers or weaknesses.

IMO, I guess that it is easier for the Good Guys to put a stand against the CE Demons, even if the Hell itself is turn to smittereens. I mean, it is much easier to Chaotic Good and Lawful Good extraplanars to work together. This should mean that they would be able to put a resistance against the forces of the Abyss.

But, I guess there is much more in this conflict than my humble philosofy can manage to see right now.

Care to explain?

Att

monty
2009-01-20, 01:23 PM
Hmmm... Bother to explain why exactly the forces of Good would be so outnumbered by the forces of evil? I mean, I can accept it enterely, so I am just after some explanation on the numbers and facts. Really, I don't remember if any of the Good planes is infinite or not, so I don't know anything about their numbers or weaknesses.

IMO, I guess that it is easier for the Good Guys to put a stand against the CE Demons, even if the Hell itself is turn to smittereens. I mean, it is much easier to Chaotic Good and Lawful Good extraplanars to work together. This should mean that they would be able to put a resistance against the forces of the Abyss.

But, I guess there is much more in this conflict than my humble philosofy can manage to see right now.

Care to explain?

Att

All the solars are being used by epic spellcasters to power their planet animations and whatnot.

It's not easy to bring down that 10^20 Spellcraft DC, after all.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-01-20, 01:26 PM
Hmmm... Bother to explain why exactly the forces of Good would be so outnumbered by the forces of evil? I mean, I can accept it enterely, so I am just after some explanation on the numbers and facts. Really, I don't remember if any of the Good planes is infinite or not, so I don't know anything about their numbers or weaknesses.

IMO, I guess that it is easier for the Good Guys to put a stand against the CE Demons, even if the Hell itself is turn to smittereens. I mean, it is much easier to Chaotic Good and Lawful Good extraplanars to work together. This should mean that they would be able to put a resistance against the forces of the Abyss.

But, I guess there is much more in this conflict than my humble philosofy can manage to see right now.

Care to explain?

Att

I've never heard of infinite good planes, at least not in a way that'd be helpful. More importantly the demonic hordes have infinite numbers. Devils have nigh infinite to combat them. Good has just enough numbers to make a heroic last stand if evil ever turns against that'll hold out just long enough for the PCs to make the desperate strike to turn the side but not to win.

In other words, it's mostly a story-telling thing.

TheCountAlucard
2009-01-20, 01:36 PM
Really, I don't remember if any of the Good planes is infinite or not...

Again, not wanting to be the poop in someone's Cheerios, but all of the planes are infinite. If they weren't, they wouldn't be planes. They certainly aren't called "The Upper Demiplanes."

Fawsto
2009-01-20, 01:57 PM
All the solars are being used by epic spellcasters to power their planet animations and whatnot.

It's not easy to bring down that 10^20 Spellcraft DC, after all.

Naturally. How could I have forgotten about this.

Now, it is stated out there that the Good Guys have finite numbers? I mean, there is a lot of good souls going up there too...

Eldan
2009-01-20, 02:01 PM
All planes are infinite, and all sides have infinite numbers, some just have more infinite numbers than others.

I know it sounds confusing, and I don't really understand it myself, but the mathematician in our group ensures me that it is absolutely possible from a mathematical standpoint.

veilrap
2009-01-20, 02:24 PM
All planes are infinite, and all sides have infinite numbers, some just have more infinite numbers than others.

I know it sounds confusing, and I don't really understand it myself, but the mathematician in our group ensures me that it is absolutely possible from a mathematical standpoint.

Here's a pretty basic way of understanding infinites and how one can be larger than another.

Consider all the real numbers between 0 and 1. There are infinite: 0.1, 0.11, 0.3, 0.7655, etc.

Now consider how many integers there are. Again there are infinite: -inf, ..., -1, 0 , 1, 2 ... inf.

Now between each pair of consecutive integers there is an infinite number of real numbers. So the total number of real numbers is infinite and so is the number of integers but the number of real numbers is greater.

This works in terms of planes as well. A plane takes up infinite space. So if you have an infinite number of planes its similar to the real number situation.

monty
2009-01-20, 02:27 PM
I know it sounds confusing, and I don't really understand it myself, but the mathematician in our group ensures me that it is absolutely possible from a mathematical standpoint.

So then, there's aleph-null good outsiders, aleph-one devils, and aleph-two demons, or something like that? That sort of makes sense, I guess, but does it really say that in the books?

monty
2009-01-20, 02:30 PM
Now between each pair of consecutive integers there is an infinite number of real numbers. So the total number of real numbers is infinite and so is the number of integers but the number of real numbers is greater.

I may be remembering it wrong, but don't those both have the same cardinality?

This stuff always confused me...

Edit: Looked it up again; you're right.

WJLIII3
2009-01-20, 02:41 PM
So then, there's aleph-null good outsiders, aleph-one devils, and aleph-two demons, or something like that? That sort of makes sense, I guess, but does it really say that in the books?

Not as such, no.

It does, however, state that all planes are infinite. It states that rather explicitly. All planes are infinite in scope and population. However, each individual layer of the Abyss is, in and of itself, infinite, and there are an infinite number of them. Each of the Nine Hells is similarly infinite, and each of the Seven Mounting Heavens, and each layer of every other plane as well, though the layers of the other planes are fewer in number and not part of the plane's name. So, essentially, we have as populations, for example, Limbo with aleph4, Celestia with aleph7, Baator with aleph9, the Abyss with...alephinfinite, so to speak.

monty
2009-01-20, 02:46 PM
Not as such, no.

It does, however, state that all planes are infinite. It states that rather explicitly. All planes are infinite in scope and population. However, each individual layer of the Abyss is, in and of itself, infinite, and there are an infinite number of them. Each of the Nine Hells is similarly infinite, and each of the Seven Mounting Heavens, and each layer of every other plane as well, though the layers of the other planes are fewer in number and not part of the plane's name. So, essentially, we have as populations, for example, Limbo with aleph4, Celestia with aleph7, Baator with aleph9, the Abyss with...alephinfinite, so to speak.

Again, I may be remembering wrong (it's been a few years since I've taken a look at any of this stuff), but I don't think it works that way.

WJLIII3
2009-01-20, 02:48 PM
Again, I may be remembering wrong (it's been a few years since I've taken a look at any of this stuff), but I don't think it works that way.

You mean the planes, or aleph? Because I know aleph doesn't work like that, I was just trying to simplify. The Planes do work like that, though.

monty
2009-01-20, 02:58 PM
You mean the planes, or aleph? Because I know aleph doesn't work like that, I was just trying to simplify. The Planes do work like that, though.

Aleph. 2*Infinity is still infinity, so the only planes with "more" forces in them are the ones with infinite layers. All the others are effectively equal. Doesn't matter if they have one layer or ten billion layers.

WJLIII3
2009-01-20, 03:06 PM
Aleph. 2*Infinity is still infinity, so the only planes with "more" forces in them are the ones with infinite layers. All the others are effectively equal. Doesn't matter if they have one layer or ten billion layers.

Ah, but 2*infinity is more than infinity.

Let us use an example.

Baator and Celestia go to war, once and for all. They ignore all other concerns and set themselves against one another. For the purposes of this exercise, lets assume the devilish and angelic armies are roughly evenly matched in terms of strategy and skill of individuals. That is, neither can outwit or outgun the other, only outnumber. So, the first 7 Hells match the 7 Heavens....and now Cania and Nessus are free to do as they please, reinforcing one army or another. In this way, the Hells "outnumber" the Heavens.

FatR
2009-01-20, 03:12 PM
Then adventurers destroy another. With epic magic doing this is not even particularly hard, the only part that is even remotely problematic is finding a way to waste infinite numbers of beings (if you assume that Abyss/Hells are in fact infinite in size, even though this isn't really compatible with the way things work there). Without it, you probably need self-replicating simulacrum armies to be allowed and be strong enough that even your simulacrums can one-round pit fiends.

monty
2009-01-20, 03:19 PM
Ah, but 2*infinity is more than infinity.

Not really. Not at all, actually. Your example assumes that each layer goes against exactly one other layer. However, if all nine hells went against one heaven, they'd still be evenly matched in numbers.


See, this is why I love D&D. It ends up in discussions like this.

Albonor
2009-01-20, 03:37 PM
I think (math discussion set aside...), that it's more of an interpretation about: is it easier to get the Archdukes to take interrest in the Blood War or is it easier to organise the philosophical manifestation of wanton destruction?

My guess is Hell will win, because I don't believe in Xykon's theorem (there is a level of power against which no plan can succeed). If that eer was to happen, then Hell would play nice and work with the Upper plans in brigning order to the multiverse....until, millenia after, everybody realised that they managed to conviced everyone of a new definition of "nice" and "order".....

WJLIII3
2009-01-20, 04:20 PM
I think (math discussion set aside...), that it's more of an interpretation about: is it easier to get the Archdukes to take interrest in the Blood War or is it easier to organise the philosophical manifestation of wanton destruction?

My guess is Hell will win, because I don't believe in Xykon's theorem (there is a level of power against which no plan can succeed). If that eer was to happen, then Hell would play nice and work with the Upper plans in brigning order to the multiverse....until, millenia after, everybody realised that they managed to conviced everyone of a new definition of "nice" and "order".....

How would they ever ever convince the Upper Planes they were gonna play nice? I mean, "good =/= stupid" aside, it doesn't exactly take a genius to realize Devils are working against you. They are literally the universal personification of deceit and tyranny. They are physically, not just mentally but physically incapable to acting for the cause of good, and everyone knows that.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-01-21, 02:22 PM
Naturally. How could I have forgotten about this.

Now, it is stated out there that the Good Guys have finite numbers? I mean, there is a lot of good souls going up there too...

There is the fundamental flaw in your reasoning. On most standard D&D material plane worlds the evil souls outnumber the good souls. Again, usually by a fair deal to provide an adventure-rich environment for players. This isn't even counting the GRIMDARK settings. Counter act this by the amount of NPCs who would just be neutral instead of good to how few actual good there are and the numbers fall further. And here is the last reason...every soul that goes to the good planes does not become a celestial. Some might or do, most enjoy their peaceful resting place or ascend to such goodness they become one with the plane or won't heed a call to battle. That's why I said finite. The majority of souls sent to the Hells or the Abyss either become devils/demons or divine energy/playthings/currency.

Prometheus
2009-01-21, 03:30 PM
Here's the thing devils figured out when fighting demons - you may never be able to win the war, but if you win every battle than you don't lose. It will always be impossible to destroy every demon, but it is certainly possible to reduce the influence of the Abyss to exactly zero - that is, it takes a finite amount of energy, with a smart strategy, to stop the demons. Again, if the devils can do it, so is it possible for everyone else to.

I am less knowledgeable about the details of the Blood War, but if someone closed all gates out of the the Abyss or destroyed all demons attempting to leave (which may or may not be a finite number), than that wins the war. Any section of the Abyss that another plane wishes to colonize (why would it?) can be done simply by entering the plane and defending it against anything that could come towards it. In other words, the way to defeat an infinite army is with a bottleneck that makes it a finite task at a time. In some cases this would be a rather large bottleneck, but a finite bottleneck.