LGBTitp - part III

[SMEE]

Welcome.

This is a thread were we, LGBT people, use to discuss, share our experiences, give general advice and support.

Of course, everyone is welcome to post their views regarding the matter here.
I just ask that we keep this topic free of politics and religion. It's beyond the scope of this thread to discuss whether LGBT is "right" or "not".
Let us not post sexually explicit content as well, okay?

If you would rather ask for advice or post your story or your view regarding the matter, you can use the address below to send an anonymous message to be posted in this thread.

http://anonmail.smeenet.org/

Keep in mind that content which contain strong language may be filtered, and content that goes against the forum rules won't be posted at all.

Here are the links for the first two threads, where much useful information lies:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62225
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86066

And to start...
I'm lactating... almost as much as a mom that has given birth... Trying to see if the local milk banks will accept it...

Now, let us continue with our schedule. :smallsmile:

[Collin152]

Milk banks? There are milk banks?
Is there any bodily fluid you can't donate to people?

[Lyesmith]

Milk banks? There are milk banks?
Is there any bodily fluid you can't donate to people?

Milk is a bodily fluid?

[SMEE]

Milk banks? There are milk banks?
Is there any bodily fluid you can't donate to people?

Yup, there are. And they're very important as the donated milk is used to feed premature babies while they can't leave the incubator to be feed by his mom.

*wants to be able to donate her milk so much :smallfrown:*

[Collin152]

Milk is a bodily fluid?

It's fluid, it comes from the body, it qualifies, doesn't it?


Yup, there are. And they're very important as the donated milk is used to feed premature babies while they can't leave the incubator to be feed by his mom.

*wants to be able to donate her milk so much :smallfrown:*

Oh. Aww. Do they not let you? I don't see why. It should be pretty much exactly the same as most other women's milk, right?

[Thufir]

It's fluid, it comes from the body, it qualifies, doesn't it?

...I was about to say exactly this.
GET OUT OF MY BRAIN!!!!!

[Lyesmith]

I am never eating lunch at 4PM ever again. It sets my bodyclock to midnight.
"Is milk a bodily fuild" AUGH what an idiot.

[Collin152]

...I was about to say exactly this.
GET OUT OF MY BRAIN!!!!!

But.. but... Where shall I go? What shall I do?

[Lyesmith]

But.. but... Where shall I go? What shall I do?

Get a job, you schmoozer!
Honestly, kids these days...

Also, edit from the last thread-thing.


The movie. About the gay guy. Therefore, pertinent to this thread.

Does the new thread have to be called LGBTitp?

Aha!
I'd not heard about it from anyplace in the UK (Is it about the first openly gay senator? Or am I getting confused?), so pardon my ignorance.

[Stormthorn]

Milk banks? There are milk banks?
Is there any bodily fluid you can't donate to people?


Cerebral-spinal fluid?

[SMEE]

From the older thread:


LGBTQQUITPPOA&O itp

So people, do you all agree with it? If so, I'm changing the tittle.

[Collin152]

What about "LGBTerrific"?

[mercurymaline]

Sorry, messed up, there should be another A in there.

[Raistlin1040]

O.o

What the hell does that ridiculously large acronym mean?

[rankrath]

I like LGBTeriffic for the thread name. LGBTQQUITPPOA&O, while more correct/inclusive is a bit too long to be recognizable/usable. We're a support/discussion thread, not a government organization.

[mercurymaline]

I was kidding, honestly. LGBTQQUITPPOAA&O = Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transexual, Queer, Questioning, Unsure, Intersex, Transgender, Pansexual, Polyamorous, Omnisexual, Asexual, straight Allies & Other.

"LGBT Quit Poa-o" doesn't take /that/ long to say.

[Fawkes]

Why is the S in straight lowercase? :smallconfused:

[CrimsonAngel]

Isn't Asexual when you don't need to have sex to reproduce?

[The Neoclassic]

Isn't Asexual when you don't need to have sex to reproduce?

Yes, in biology, but usually if a person refers to themselves as asexual, it means that they lack a romantic or sexual attraction to either/any gender (and are just fine with that). Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Fawkes]

Isn't Asexual when you don't need to have sex to reproduce?

That would be 'asexual reproduction'. Asexual by itself just means 'without sex'. In this context, as a sexual orientation, asexual refers to people who do not experience sexual attraction.

Edit: Ninja'd.

[Innis Cabal]

Why not call it the sexual preference thread :smallconfused:

[Raistlin1040]

No, it's people who have very little sexual attraction to others.

[Collin152]

Isn't Asexual when you don't need to have sex to reproduce?

Under one definition, yes. it also describes things that have no sex, even if they are thus incapable of reproducing because of it (obviously one generation mutants, as they can't really pass that trait on, can they?)

[Fawkes]

Why not call it the sexual preference thread :smallconfused:

That probably wouldn't get the intended message across.

[Sneak]

Why is the S in straight lowercase? :smallconfused:

I'm guessing because the S isn't in the acronym, while the A is.

[Fawkes]

I'm guessing because the S isn't in the acronym, while the A is.

Well, I knew that, but why isn't the S in the acronym?

Waaait a minute... you're not Dallas-Dakota...

[SMEE]

Why not call it the sexual preference thread :smallconfused:

Because it not only deals with sexual preference. Transsexualism is completely unrelated to sexual preference, for one.

[Sneak]

Well, I knew that, but why isn't the S in the acronym?

Waaait a minute... you're not Dallas-Dakota...

I am offended, good sir. Your accusations wound me. :smallfrown:

As to why the S isn't in the acronym...beats me. Maybe just to make the acronym work better.


Because it not only deals with sexual preference. Transsexualism is completely unrelated to sexual preference, for one.

Wouldn't "The Sexuality Thread" work?

[Fawkes]

Terminology question!

Is there a difference between Transgender, Transsexual, and Intersex, or are they all different terms for the same thing?

[mercurymaline]

Gender = gender identity, internal feelings, etc.
Sex = genitalia

Transgender is being a different gender than your body
Transexual is being surgically altered from your birth sex
Intersex is not identifying with being either male or female, mentally, socially or physically, due to surgery, birth "defect," or choice

[Collin152]

Because it not only deals with sexual preference. Transsexualism is completely unrelated to sexual preference, for one.

This.
And I like to think the rest isn't all about sex anyways.

[Fawkes]

This.
And I like to think the rest isn't all about sex anyways.

I'd say that sexual attraction is probably the biggest difference between a straight person and a gay person. :smallconfused:

[Sneak]

But this thread isn't just about straight/gay.

[Collin152]

I'd say that sexual attraction is probably the biggest difference between a straight person and a gay person. :smallconfused:

Oh, sure, but sex itself needn't be involved in the slightest.

[Fawkes]

I think I misunderstood the question.

[mercurymaline]

Gender = gender identity, internal feelings, etc.
Sex = genitalia

Transgender is being a different gender than your body
Transexual is being surgically altered from your birth sex
Intersex is not identifying with being either male or female, mentally, socially or physically, due to surgery, birth "defect," or choice

And you didn't ask, but it's generally the next question: Transvestite literally means "cross dresser." Has nothing to do with genitalia. Just clothes.

[Fawkes]

And you didn't ask, but it's generally the next question: Transvestite literally means "cross dresser." Has nothing to do with genitalia. Just clothes.

Monty Python taught me that one. "Some of my best friends are lumberjacks, and only a few of them were transvestites."

[CrimsonAngel]

"I'm a lumber jack and it's OK. I sleep at night and I work all day! I dress in wemens clooothes!"

"What?"

[Collin152]

And you didn't ask, but it's generally the next question: Transvestite literally means "cross dresser." Has nothing to do with genitalia. Just clothes.

And sansvestite is a horrible amalagation of languages I've heard used to decribe nudists before.

[mercurymaline]

And sansvestite is a horrible amalagation of languages I've heard used to decribe nudists before.

You, sir, just made my day.

[Fawkes]

And sansvestite is a horrible amalagation of languages I've heard used to decribe nudists before.

That's hardly an amalgamation. Sans is french for without, and vesti is a root common to Latin, Italian, and French.

I say the term is proper. And I should say I'm an authority on these matters, seeing as I have a top hat and monocle.

Good day.

[Collin152]

That's hardly an amalgamation. Sans is french for without, and vesti is a root common to Latin, Italian, and French.

I say the term is proper. And I should say I'm an authority on these matters, seeing as I have a top hat and monocle.

Good day.

Ah, so it is French, is it?
I see no top hat, though, sirrah. And being an Englishman by lineage, I should say I'm the authority on such pretentious articles of clothing as such, and should recognize them on sight! Good day, sirrah!

[rankrath]

That's hardly an amalgamation. Sans is french for without, and vesti is a root common to Latin, Italian, and French.

I say the term is proper. And I should say I'm an authority on these matters, seeing as I have a top hat and monocle.

Good day.

My good sir, I do believe your previous peroration is found to be rapidly false. You avatar is clearly touting only a common monocle, and no top hat is to be readily found within the vicinity.

[Fawkes]

I say, old bean, bit of a sticky wicket, eh wot?

[rankrath]

you changed your blood avatar since last I chanced a glance upon it! A play most foul indeed, my good sir.

[mercurymaline]

And suddenly, I'm not nearly British enough for this thread. *flees*

[Fawkes]

Pish posh, I did no such thing, you knave!

[Collin152]

Pish posh, I did no such thing, you knave!

I daresay, such knavish trickery shall not prove triumphant in this confrontation! Donning a hat after the fact does nothing to validate the statement justified by the hat made before its donning, don't you think?

[rankrath]

A knave am I? Yet who is a knave, but one who uses what benefits technology grants to play me for a common fool, a jester will bells and whistles, to be danced along for dark enjoyments and unknown purposes. Nay, it is you who are a knave, and I would see fit to prove such upon the field of honor, if my good sir would find enough to face me.

*throws a glove to Mechafox's feet*

[Fawkes]

I never claimed to have been wearing a top hat, you scandalous wench. I merely stated forth that I was in the possession of one, and said hat, combined with my stately monocle, proved forthwith that I was an expert on all matters linguistic.

[rankrath]

As of questionable legitimacy your statement is, it is still held to be truth that you have implied that I fall into the category of knave, and now as a wench I stand unjustly accused. These demeaning accusations require rightful reparation, and so my challenge stands still.

[InaVegt]

Gender = gender identity, internal feelings, etc.
Sex = genitalia

Transgender is being a different gender than your body
Transexual is being surgically altered from your birth sex
Intersex is not identifying with being either male or female, mentally, socially or physically, due to surgery, birth "defect," or choice

Actually, Intersex is someone with one of a limited set of conditions which result in an anomaly in physical sex. Surgery or choice does not make one qualify, and an Intersex person might or might not identify with a specific gender. If you don't identify with either male or female, that makes you transgender (the umbrelly term for everything that doesn't neatly fit the gender binary, everything that does is labeled cisgender.), a few of these are androgynous (I've never quite understood how these people identify, ask an androgyne for details.), gender**** (Basically: gender doesn't matter, and I'm going to draw attention to the fact that gender doesn't matter by visibly showing signs of both genders, or at least, that's my understanding of it.), or two-spirit (From what I understand, it's basically, sometimes male, sometimes female, depending on circumstances, these circumstances differ by person as well.)

With all these decribed forms of transgender, I'm not one of those people, it's based on my understanding, which might be wrong. I aim to help, so feel free to notify me/people if I'm in error, I'd rather have any errors fixed when found.

[blackfox]

Wouldn't "The Sexuality Thread" work?I thought we already had one of those? I think it died a while ago, though. It was the one with the chart...


And sansvestite is a horrible amalagation of languages I've heard used to decribe nudists before.+10 awesome points.

[Tamburlaine]

And suddenly, I'm not nearly British enough for this thread. *flees*

*gets out pipe and fob watch*
Oh, I wouldn't do yourself down in such a manner old bean, makes you less of a confident person don't you know.

Also, I'd like to organise a round of three cheers for the new thread.
Hip Hip!

[Starshade]

Actually, Intersex is someone with one of a limited set of conditions which result in an anomaly in physical sex. Surgery or choice does not make one qualify, and an Intersex person might or might not identify with a specific gender. If you don't identify with either male or female, that makes you transgender (the umbrelly term for everything that doesn't neatly fit the gender binary, everything that does is labeled cisgender.), a few of these are androgynous (I've never quite understood how these people identify, ask an androgyne for details.), gender**** (Basically: gender doesn't matter, and I'm going to draw attention to the fact that gender doesn't matter by visibly showing signs of both genders, or at least, that's my understanding of it.), or two-spirit (From what I understand, it's basically, sometimes male, sometimes female, depending on circumstances, these circumstances differ by person as well.)

With all these decribed forms of transgender, I'm not one of those people, it's based on my understanding, which might be wrong. I aim to help, so feel free to notify me/people if I'm in error, I'd rather have any errors fixed when found.

Two Spirit is used as a gathering term for diverse traditions among Native Americans, as far i know, i think they mostly was historical people feeling they was born in wrong bodies. As MtF or FtM in modern times.
In modern age i think "two spirit" is a Native American/Canadian first nations term for LGBT people, if they embrace older roles.

Androgyne is a term i know, i think its simpler to explain as a mix of male and female traits, or standing in the middle of the gender roles. Some psychological researchers even think people with androgynous traits better able to cope with diverse issues they encounter, by using a mix of male and female ways to react and think outside of the binary gender roles.

And of couse all terms overlap, and you see all of them used differently, in different places. :smallamused:

[SMEE]

So I got a reply from the Milk Bank...

The translated text follows:



Good afternoon Beatrice

Congratulations for you concern regarding the little children that need human milk. It would be great if at least 10% of the women that have milk had this same attitude, but it is sad that it isn't like that.
We'd like very much to be able to take your milk. Our babies weight about 800 grams, and since they are still growing, one of the requirements from ANVISA (pretty much Brazilian's FDA) is that the donour isn't taking any meds.
If you know any other women that is able to donate, you can handle her our phone number so she can contact us. You'll be helping that way too.

Thank you.


Summing up, I can't donate, but not because I'm TG, but because I'm taking meds.
It makes me happy to see that they were kind when explaining the reasons behind.

Bea.

[Kaelaroth]

Well, Bea, at least they did explain it to you. And the reasoning wasn't based on your being TG. Which is nice. :smallsmile:
Even, so, you deserves a mighty huggle, but, hey, I'm rather far away. :smalltongue:

And, yaay, new thread.

[Serpentine]

Would a tomboy or the male equivalent (janegirl?), someone who is happy with their body, I suppose straight (though I could see that not mattering, except they then get called "butch" or "pansy" or somesuch if they're gay), but acting more like the opposite gender, count as transgender?


So I got a reply from the Milk Bank...

The translated text follows:
Summing up, I can't donate, but not because I'm TG, but because I'm taking meds.
It makes me happy to see that they were kind when explaining the reasons behind.

Bea.It's great that they got back to you, so promptly, kindly, with pretty good reasons, and a suggestion for another way you could help :smallsmile:

Yeah, I did the Sexuality Thread. I really need to update that chart... Here it is as it is now, though, in case anyone's interested again:

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/serpentine16/sexuality.gif

[three08]

i confess i have only scanned over the two pages of the new thread, but it seems to me we might benefit from a glossary of pertinent terms in the first post. no-one would ever read it, but it at least provides one an excuse to shout "RTFM NOOB".

i like shouting that.

in other news:

LGBTQQUITPPOA&O itp

a provocative suggestion, but i submit that the above doesn't go far enough. with that many letters, we can do better:

BATGOPLOPQUITQitp
TOPBATLOGQUIPQitp
APTBOGQUILTOPQitp

(note that, with only one U and 2 Qs, your options are somewhat limited.)

[mercurymaline]

@Serp:

Transgender:
* "Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these."

* "People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."

* "Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."

So yes, I suppose so. Though if a person is perfectly happy being a tomboy/janegirl (yes, I'm going with that phrase from now on) I don't know if it would apply. I generally thing of being TG as wanting your physical form to match your feelings. I usually consider TG a step to TS.

@Three08:
That's why you put the Qs together, so you can pronounce them as one sound. Makes an easier acronym.

[Serpentine]

I would've thought that transgender would mean someone who doesn't feel that who they are fits what is expected of (gender) someone with their biology (sex), whereas a transexual would be someone who doesn't feel that who they are fits their biology. One is primarily about social expectations (maybe with some biology involved in determining those), and the other is primarily about biology (one's brain not going with one's body). So, transexuality may involve transgenderedness, but not necessarily, and transgenderedness doesn't necessarily lead to transexuality (but maybe, in time, to a change in social expectations).
I don't know, that's why I was asking, but that's sort of the impression I get and the assumptions I make (it also relates to my afore-mentioned and over-discussed issues with jumping to the conlusion of transexuality, that if someone feels that they don't act the way their sex is expected to (what I would've thought would be transgender), then they must be transexual. It seems... it almost seems harmful to feminism, where men and women should basically be able to act as feminine or masculine as they like).

...that was a big parenthesis.

[turkishproverb]

They're names. They don't make sense.

[Tichrondrius]

So... this topic interests me and I'd like to be a part of it. XD

[Kneenibble]

I'm looking on my bookshelf for "Gay Spirit." It's not there, and Foucault's "Discipline and Punishment" is in its usual place. Is this a message from the Universe?

Anyways, the reason I'm looking for it is because I wanted to answer a question about the term "Two-Spirited." Living in a city which has the highest native population among major cities in Canada, and a gay community full of tan -- smooth -- sinewy -- black-haired -- dark-eyed --- :smalleek:

*ahem*
full of native guys, I've felt compelled to learn a little bit about this term that does come up.

If memory serves me correctly, it's a constructed term that came around in the 70s. It refers generally to LGBTQ people in the native community. A lot of native bands had figures which the French settlers called "berdaches" (which I believe is a corruption of a word in some Algonkian language), men who dressed as women and did women's work and could marry men. I remember a woodcut in a book showing a bashful berdache being oggled by surrounding men. Some also had women who dressed as men and became warriors or hunters. Other bands did not have these figures and persecuted homosexuality. Naturally, the latter was encouraged by the settlers, the former pretty aggressively stamped out.Frikking Jesuits.

"Two-spirited" came about as a term to describe a reconstructed idea of these traditions.

Lots -- if not most -- of the native guys I've talked to just say gay though.

Welcome to the thread, Mr. Tichrondrius. Please help yourself to a mojito.

[Rettu Skcollob]

Awesome, new thread.

Damn you three08, I've been sitting here trying to say your acronyms for about ten minutes and my roommate thinks I've gone mad.

[Starshade]

Serpentine: my problem, is i dont got English as native language, and, my language got a term for transsexual, but not transgender.

Unfortunately, the term "transsexual" is used in psychological research to a great degree, as far i know, so its taken colour of that. Who involve theoretical ideas as wanting to become other sex as a way to enjoy the act, with the person's own body as the attractive part (often imagining/dressing as oposite sex).

In this theory, the person would make a "alter ego", a second persona. Where i live, this is for most part what is though about for the term "transsexual". If one read books, that is. If they dont, hmm, then they think about something like in the Monthy Python's flying circus?

'I cut down trees, I skip and jump, I like to press wild flowers, I put on women's clothing, and hang around in bars' :smallamused:

Strange Freudian thoughts and concepts colour these terms, i'm not fond of the word "transsexual" at all myself, so i like to learn more about what people call themself. Terms better able to convey what people tell/feel they are, not what 100 year old dusty theories claim they are.

[Kaelaroth]

Welcome to the thread, Mr. Tichrondrius. Please help yourself to a mojito.

Or a summer cooler, should you not drink.

[Kneenibble]

Ah. I.E., faux-jito?

Serpentine's classsifications vibrate with me just fine, and I think one more radical term that applies to her latter conclusion is "gender-queer". And Starshade, the Freudian kind of stuff you're citing is a bit outdated, particularly because it's implicitly approaching transexuality as a disorder.

The Monty Python stuff can be more wonderfully called Camp. And you know, the word transvestite -- aside from the Transylvanian species -- I really only hear any more for straight guys who put on women's clothing as a kind of sexual fetish. It's either a part of camp, or something considered less sophisticated than the deeper-running stuff.

Oh, this fractured postmodern self! -- it strikes me now that older societies did not distinguish between camp, transgender, and transexuality; they dwelt in one connected realm. Native berdaches, for example -- social functions, feelings of disparate biology, and a degree of camp all came with the role, so to speak. Indian hijras, too, a couple of whom I met while I was there, whose tradition goes pretty frikking far back, also play on all three levels.

As for myself, I think I play primarily in camp. Empire lite society is at a point where nothing I do day-to-day is really too far outside the realm of my gender role, and this man-trunk fits my spirit like a glove. I do throw mascara on the flames though, in particular times and places.

[Coidzor]

As for myself, I think I play primarily in camp. Empire lite society is at a point where nothing I do day-to-day is really too far outside the realm of my gender role, and this man-trunk fits my spirit like a glove. I do throw mascara on the flames though, in particular times and places.

Empire Lite? What, and possibly where as well, is that? All I'm getting is Wikipedia talking about indirect Imperialism.

[amuletts]

a provocative suggestion, but i submit that the above doesn't go far enough. with that many letters, we can do better:

BATGOPLOPQUITQitp
TOPBATLOGQUIPQitp
APTBOGQUILTOPQitp

(note that, with only one U and 2 Qs, your options are somewhat limited.)

Why not ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZitp? That way we can't possibly miss anything, with the possible exception of those nonstandard letter - damn them!

[Kaelaroth]

Ah. I.E., faux-jito?

As for myself, I think I play primarily in camp.

Yeah. A virgin mojito.
Is it wrong that saying virgin in relation to a drink my dad likes makes me giggle like crazy? :smalltongue:

And, yes. I hit camp too, rather more often than I'd like.

[Collin152]

So, I wore a bright purple shirt to school today. I wonder if that's ostentatious enough for people to start putting two and two together?

My usual color is brown, see.

[rankrath]

probably not, most people are stupid.

[Tichrondrius]

Ah, the smooth taste of a mojito. lol

Lots of people wear purple, its not obvious. Its just fashionable. :smallwink:

[Collin152]

Ah, the smooth taste of a mojito. lol

Lots of people wear purple, its not obvious. Its just fashionable. :smallwink:

It's awfully strikingly purple. WHen combined with the scarf, you'd think that might do something.
Maybe I'll take a picture? Yes, yes, maybe I will.

[Rettu Skcollob]

So, I wore a bright purple shirt to school today. I wonder if that's ostentatious enough for people to start putting two and two together?

My usual color is brown, see.

Eh, if you're in school, the best way to let everyone know is to tell a close friend with STRICT INSTRUCTIONS to never tell anyone EVER. I guarantee you that within twenty minutes, everyone within a five kilometer radius will know. No, not bitter at all, no no.

[Wait, you are talking about coming out as L/G/B/T/Whatever, right?]

[Collin152]

Eh, if you're in school, the best way to let everyone know is to tell a close friend with STRICT INSTRUCTIONS to never tell anyone EVER. I guarantee you that within twenty minutes, everyone within a five kilometer radius will know. No, not bitter at all, no no.

Yeah, I tried the reverse psycology approach. Guess how well that worked? I had to tell all my friends myself before they got the idea that I diddn't mind if they spread it about.

[rankrath]

It's awfully strikingly purple. WHen combined with the scarf, you'd think that might do something.
Maybe I'll take a picture? Yes, yes, maybe I will.

we can haz pix? sorry, I've been spending way too much time on 4chan lately

If you're looking for a good way to come out, get a LBGTerrific shirt. :smallbiggrin:

[blackfox]

Would a tomboy or the male equivalent (janegirl?), someone who is happy with their body, I suppose straight (though I could see that not mattering, except they then get called "butch" or "pansy" or somesuch if they're gay), but acting more like the opposite gender, count as transgender?I'd label myself 'tomboy', but I don't consider myself transgender. I guess it's the feeling-happy-about-my-female-body that makes me not want to use the label transgender. I don't want to be a boy, but I do want to be able to act like one. Which I can, up to the point where I break (another) bone, and have to sulk in my room for a few months, listening to Rage Against the Machine and throwing hackeysacks at the door. :smalltongue:

What would you call someone who occasionally will have a crush on someone of the same gender, and would be interested in a homosexual relationship, but is leery of... let's say, more intimate homosexual affection? I guess the question is whether you guys would call it 'bi' or 'heteroflexible' or whatever.

[Coidzor]

Straight with some homosexual leanings?

Depends on how far you actually want to go. How much of that is just squick from socialization as opposed to actual lack of desire for such... intimacies....

[InaVegt]

Basically, there are four lines.

Physical sex: Male - Intersex - Female
Mental gender: Man - Transgender - Woman
Sexual attraction: Gynophile - Bi/Pan/A - Androphile
Gender Expression: Masculine - (Dunno a good word to put here) - Feminine

Wherever someone is on one of these does not tell you where the others are. It's 'socially expected' for people to be at the ends, and all ends at the same side.

A physical male is expected to consider himself a guy, to be attracted to women, and to act masculine.

A physical female is expected to consider herself a woman, to be attracted to men, and to act feminine.

Now, let's say we have this tomboy. She is female, considers herself a woman, is attracted to men, but acts masculine.

Now, consider the following: We have a physical male, considers herself a woman, is attracted to men, and acts masculine. If she's young, people could logically call her a tomboy.

Now, let's say we have this physical female, considers himself to be a guy, is attracted to other men, acts feminine, he is a drag queen, you see.

Let's say we have this XXY male, considers himself a guy, attracted to men, acts masculine.

All of these people, and many more, exist. While people varying from 'the norm' on at least one line might be more likely to deviate on the others, they don't have to, and it's rude to assume so.

Let's take me as an example, androgynous to feminine looking physical male, not taking any hormones, so while technically still male, definitely not at the far side of male. I consider myself to be a girl, have the GID diagnosis to support that. I'm Asexual, but consider women more attractive. My Gender expression is more feminine than masculine, but definitely not at the far edge.

@Blackfox: That's generally called Bi-curious, IIRC

[Serpentine]

What would you call someone who occasionally will have a crush on someone of the same gender, and would be interested in a homosexual relationship, but is leery of... let's say, more intimate homosexual affection? I guess the question is whether you guys would call it 'bi' or 'heteroflexible' or whatever.Ooooh! I like this term. "Heteroflexible" is much easier to say than "straight but flexible". But yeah, I'd go with that.

Gezina: I'm a bit iffy about some of the finer details, but overall I like that... analysis? summary? Whatever. If I could redo my chart in 3D, I think that's what I'd go with.

[Cobra_Ikari]

I prefer "heteroflexible" to "bicurious", because the latter sounds like you're just looking for someone to experiment with, whereas the former sounds like you're open to the posibility of a non-heterosexual relationship.

[mercurymaline]

Gender Expression: Masculine - (Dunno a good word to put here) - Feminine

Androgyne



Now, let's say we have this physical female, considers himself to be a guy, is attracted to other men, acts feminine, he is a drag queen, you see.


Well, drag = DRessed As a Girl, so a physical female who dresses as male is a drab king.

[InaVegt]

Androgyne

Not a good word, I'm afraid, as Androgyne is generally considered to be part of Transgender, and used as a Mental Gender instead of Gender expression.

[Tichrondrius]

blackfox, you're bi-curious. Embrace it, its awesome to be bi. Its like the best of everything. :smallwink:

[Coidzor]

Or just figure out what the heck's going on there and what you want.

Not being put on the spot to self-label just yet, anyway.

[Rettu Skcollob]

Well, drag = DRessed As a Girl, so a physical female who dresses as male is a drab king.

Yeah, although I expect it'd be kind of hard to dress 'male' these days. A girl wearing pants isn't going to draw stares, (Actually, she might, depending on the girl. But now I'm going off on a tangent.) a boy wearing a dress, on the other hand...

Unfair, I call that. Men! Fight for your right to wear skirts! Burn your jockstraps!

Also; 'Drag King' sounds awesome. I can totally see a female in mans clothing shouting that from the top of a hill, with lightning flashing in the background. I so have to draw that in Inkscape.

I think that you meant Drag = Dressed as a member of the opposite Sex, anyway.

[Tichrondrius]

Drag is awesome. I tried it once after a Drag Show... it didn't work out so well for me. :smalleek: Nah, nah, I made a hot chick... well. Showing the pictures to people later, apparently I passed, but as one ugly girl. lmao

Man, I thought about just wearing a skirt or something on just a regular day one time but I was a pansy and chickened out. Whenever someone mentions men fighting for the right to wear dresses/skirts it always reminds me of that one Rugrats episode (Clan of the Duck). XD

[Rettu Skcollob]

Lol. A long-time female friend of mine is always trying to get me to dress up in drag, she reckons I'd look good. I'm not too sure though... Then again, last time she offered me fifty bucks to give it a go, so I think I might as well try it. It hasn't really had any appeal to me in the past, but it might be fun.

[Serpentine]

I prefer "heteroflexible" to "bicurious", because the latter sounds like you're just looking for someone to experiment with, whereas the former sounds like you're open to the posibility of a non-heterosexual relationship.Yeah. To very nearly quote what I've said before, I figure "bicurious" is just another name for "young, newly- or not yet-sexual person" and/or "someone who hasn't had enough experience yet to really know where they stand".

Rettu: Again, to repeat myself from ages ago, absolutely!
SKIRTS FOR MEN!
and porn for women

Only problem is, "women's clothing", as with any other, may or may not suit a particular person. Indeed, most is cut specifically for the female body, which is distinctly different from the male. So, I'd like to see more "women's" fashion made specifically for men, so it actually looks good on them (while some men look remarkably good as women, others look catatastrophicly bad).

[three08]

i don't have the build for a skirt. my legs are way too long with respect to my torso. now, a dress....

but i digress.

somehow, i had always understood that transgendered means the exact same thing as transsexual but is a more recent and politically-correct term. course, in any group, there is bound to be some disagreement on the question of what is the most accurate or correct term, so i am sure opinions vary.

[blackfox]

Gezina: I'm a bit iffy about some of the finer details, but overall I like that... analysis? summary? Whatever. If I could redo my chart in 3D, I think that's what I'd go with.Hehe, or 4D, because Ina had 4 axes on her chart. Of course, I'd be perfectly willing to make a 3D representation of the chart as a tesseract... but then we'd need a nonflat screen. :smalltongue: Seriously, though... I like Gezina's 4 axes.


I prefer "heteroflexible" to "bicurious", because the latter sounds like you're just looking for someone to experiment with, whereas the former sounds like you're open to the posibility of a non-heterosexual relationship.Agreed. I think my question was, since I'm much more interested in a heterosexual relationship, do I want to call it full-fledged bisexuality?

[Cobra_Ikari]

Agreed. I think my question was, since I'm much more interested in a heterosexual relationship, do I want to call it full-fledged bisexuality?

I dunno. Do you want to call it anything? I mean, you could just claim you're blackfoxsexual, whatever that means. *huggles*

I like your term best, to be honest.

[rankrath]

Rettu: Again, to repeat myself from ages ago, absolutely!
SKIRTS FOR MEN!
and porn for women


We have those. They're called kilts. unfortunately, no one wears them anymore. Except when bag piping.

screw cowbell, we need more bagpipe!

[InaVegt]

We have those. They're called kilts. unfortunately, no one wears them anymore. Except when bag piping.

screw cowbell, we need more bagpipe!

Don't forget the Tunic. (Might be closer to a dress, but still.)

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I fit in most women's clothing better than men's; I'm far too thin. It is a dreadful symptom of the poet condition. By which I mean smoking cigarettes.

[Susil]

We have those. They're called kilts. unfortunately, no one wears them anymore. Except when bag piping.



Clearly, sir, you do not attend enough ceilidhs. :smallbiggrin:


*returns to lurking*

[mercurymaline]

I dunno. Do you want to call it anything? I mean, you could just claim you're blackfoxsexual, whatever that means. *huggles*

I like your term best, to be honest.

Exactly. Labels: Boo!


I fit in most women's clothing better than men's; I'm far too thin. It is a dreadful symptom of the poet condition. By which I mean smoking cigarettes.

*Demands pics*

[blackfox]

I dunno. Do you want to call it anything? I mean, you could just claim you're blackfoxsexual, whatever that means. *huggles*

I like your term best, to be honest.The underlying 'problem' is my issues with language output, which is... not an area I'm very strong in. :smallyuk: So I like to be able to use as few words as possible, so I don't have to retrieve more of them than I need, and match them up with what I'm trying to say.

Anyways. [/derail]

[Dallas-Dakota]

We have those. They're called kilts. unfortunately, no one wears them anymore. Except when bag piping.

screw cowbell, we need more bagpipe!
...
Clearly you need more Celtic culture.
Kilts aren't skirts.....

[rankrath]

...
Clearly you need more Celtic culture.
Kilts aren't skirts.....

details, my friend, details.

[Lyesmith]

SKIRTS FOR MEN!
and porn for women


I totally support this. Also, it would make a great Tshirt/General life slogan.
Does anyone know Latin?
It'd be a kickass family crest decoration.

[Ethrael]

I totally support this. Also, it would make a great Tshirt/General life slogan.
Does anyone know Latin?
It'd be a kickass family crest decoration.

I be knowing a bit. Sub-GCSE standard good enough for you? :smalltongue:


SKIRTS FOR MEN!

Coming back from South Africa, in the flight magazines which they provide there was an article about an up-and-coming South African designer who designed the "Man-skirt" based on some cultures in SA. I can't seem to find any articles atm, but I thought you might like to (or already) know. :smallbiggrin:

[Tichrondrius]

Agreed. I think my question was, since I'm much more interested in a heterosexual relationship, do I want to call it full-fledged bisexuality?

Oddly enough, this is nigh my position. I could do both with a bias on heterosexual leanings (and a touch of the odd boy version of tomboy, where i'm more girlish, whats that called?). My gay friends jokingly call me the quarter, since i'm only a quarter gay. :smallbiggrin:

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Putting the word man in front of anything with a traditionally feminine connotation will work to convince good-ol'-boy bro types to wear it successfully. See MANbags, MANdals, and the slightly different (but slightly less popular for it) GUYliner.

[Raewyn]

Ok, finally gonna stop being intimidated and post something, though under a spoiler tag. >.>



Agreed. I think my question was, since I'm much more interested in a heterosexual relationship, do I want to call it full-fledged bisexuality?

This is kind of my problem too. By the time I came to terms with the whole bisexuality thing, I was already in a committed heterosexual relationship. So 1) I have no idea what sort of verbiage to refer to myself by and 2) I sort of want to go do... 'independent research,' but I feel like crap about it, even though my boyfriend is totally cool with me doing whatever.

[Rettu Skcollob]

Rettu: Again, to repeat myself from ages ago, absolutely!
SKIRTS FOR MEN!
and porn for women


I am so getting that on a T-Shirt.

[Coidzor]

But what to feature it with...

Or how to type set it.

Would you have the porn for women on the back and SKIRTS FOR MEN on the front?

Would they basically both be centered or would one be off-sync from the other?

Both slightly off-centered?

[Rettu Skcollob]

I'd say the SKIRTS FOR MEN on the front centre, and the porn for women either just under it, or on the back centre.

[blackfox]

This is kind of my problem too. By the time I came to terms with the whole bisexuality thing, I was already in a committed heterosexual relationship. So 1) I have no idea what sort of verbiage to refer to myself by and 2) I sort of want to go do... 'independent research,' but I feel like crap about it, even though my boyfriend is totally cool with me doing whatever.See, I don't have the whole boyfriend thing going on...

To save space,
I have a pair of queer, female-bodied friends that are dating right now, and one of them (ironically, since she's mostly attracted to women...) listens to me when I'm complaining angsting over boys. Every so often, when I'm not in a particularly angry murderous RAWR mood, she'll joke with me, 'Oh, well, you know, you could, you know, just like, like girls. And then everything would be happy shiny fun fun' etc. Which is a bit ironic, considering that a lot of attractive guys are gay, and a lot of attractive girls are straight. :smalltongue:

[Dhavaer]

SKIRTS FOR MEN!

One legged pant?

[Serpentine]

We have those. They're called kilts. unfortunately, no one wears them anymore. Except when bag piping.*sigh*
I got this last time I brought it up :smallsigh: While kilts (and tunics, thank you Gezina) are an excellent start, they're still not good enough.

Blackfox: Sounds like me, really. Also sounds pretty much like "normal", maybe with a side of "open mindedness" and "need for further experience" to serve *shrug*

[rankrath]

*sigh*
I got this last time I brought it up :smallsigh: While kilts (and tunics, thank you Gezina) are an excellent start, they're still not good enough.


We'd have to change fashion a bit. Current skirt cuts, at least around here, tend to have bulges when worn by men. And how are skirts not good enough? They're man skirts.

[turkishproverb]

We'd have to change fashion a bit. Current skirt cuts, at least around here, tend to have bulges when worn by men. And how are skirts not good enough? They're man skirts.

I'm suddenly remembering the Man skirts that showed up on a couple non speaking characters from ST:TNG

[Starshade]

Turkish: you're correct, it is skirts for men in trek, it was refered to as 'skant' and not skirt, by the designers, though.
http://www.st-spike.org/pages/uniforms/2351-2365/uniforms.htm

Um, the skirt + pants version seem interesting, reminds me of some sort of tunic. :smallsmile:
They did make them cut for men in The Next Generation it seems, not just found a big skirt and put on a man for fun.

Edit:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:Man_in_a_skant.jpg
picture from the ST show.

[turkishproverb]

Yea, those. Fun

[Raistlin1040]

:smallsigh: So, I got a Facebook a few days ago, and in the "interested in" section, I listed both men and women. One of my mom's criteria for letting me get the Facebook was to add her as a friend, and despite my pleas, she made me add her. She saw my info page, and then roped me into a long discussion, even though I said, at least a dozen times "I don't want to have a discussion about it". So, apparently, bisexuality doesn't exist, according to her, and I'm just a straight kid "trying on a new hat", to use her metaphor. What's really stupid is that I have a problem with people who pretend to be gay or bisexual, to be different. Like, this is something I've thought about and concluded that, though I lean towards Heterosexuality (I'd put it around a 70/30 split), I am bisexual. So, y'know, I don't exist.

*Ceases to exist*

Well damn. :smallsigh:

[Collin152]

:smallsigh: So, I got a Facebook a few days ago, and in the "interested in" section, I listed both men and women. One of my mom's criteria for letting me get the Facebook was to add her as a friend, and despite my pleas, she made me add her. She saw my info page, and then roped me into a long discussion, even though I said, at least a dozen times "I don't want to have a discussion about it". So, apparently, bisexuality doesn't exist, according to her, and I'm just a straight kid "trying on a new hat", to use her metaphor. What's really stupid is that I have a problem with people who pretend to be gay or bisexual, to be different. Like, this is something I've thought about and concluded that, though I lean towards Heterosexuality (I'd put it around a 70/30 split), I am bisexual. So, y'know, I don't exist.

*Ceases to exist*

Well damn. :smallsigh:

Aw. I'm not a bisexual, but Istill know how joo feel. I mean, I find bisexuals fascinating, but so many people say they don't exist.
It's tragic!
*hug*

[turkishproverb]

:smallsigh: So, I got a Facebook a few days ago, and in the "interested in" section, I listed both men and women. One of my mom's criteria for letting me get the Facebook was to add her as a friend, and despite my pleas, she made me add her. She saw my info page, and then roped me into a long discussion, even though I said, at least a dozen times "I don't want to have a discussion about it". So, apparently, bisexuality doesn't exist, according to her, and I'm just a straight kid "trying on a new hat", to use her metaphor. What's really stupid is that I have a problem with people who pretend to be gay or bisexual, to be different. Like, this is something I've thought about and concluded that, though I lean towards Heterosexuality (I'd put it around a 70/30 split), I am bisexual. So, y'know, I don't exist.

*Ceases to exist*

Well damn. :smallsigh:

Don't feel too bad. Your mom's not the only one who thinks that way. heck, I've had to deal with gay friends telling me that. At least she only demanded you "discuss" it with her instead of going crazy.

[blackfox]

Aw. I'm not a bisexual, but Istill know how joo feel. I mean, I find bisexuals fascinating, but so many people say they don't exist.
It's tragic!
*hug**goes poof* :smalleek:
:smallyuk:
*le RAWR*

[rankrath]

ah yes, the "no bisexuals" myth. I've had numerous heated discussion with a "friend" centering around this. And one with the same person that no, I didn't chose to be gay, and no, I'm not going to stop trying to be gay, so stop bothering me.
All I want to know is who thinks these things up?

[Serpentine]

My mother told me, many years ago, that she thought bisexuality was just an excuse for promiscuity. I don't know whether her opinion has changed since then.
Rai-Rai: Maybe you could show her my chart, or a variation of it, and explain the "sliding scale" idea of sexuality? In any case, it doesn't seem as though she's freaking out or condemning you or fearing for your soul or anything, just thinking you're going through a phase or something, so I wouldn't worry about it too much for now.

[Raistlin1040]

My mother told me, many years ago, that she thought bisexuality was just an excuse for promiscuity. I don't know whether her opinion has changed since then.
Rai-Rai: Maybe you could show her my chart, or a variation of it, and explain the "sliding scale" idea of sexuality? In any case, it doesn't seem as though she's freaking out or condemning you or fearing for your soul or anything, just thinking you're going through a phase or something, so I wouldn't worry about it too much for now.
My mom said the same thing. My response was "I'm not even 15 yet, I'm not having sex with ANYONE."

She just acts so superior about, like she's patronizing me. Without delving into religion too much, she did a similar thing when I mentioned being an Atheist. She thinks I'm a Christian in denial, and now she thinks I'm straight an in denial.

I don't think she'd really go for the sliding scale either.

[rankrath]

Raistlin: have you considered getting a boyfriend and then coming home one night with him? That would be rather undeniable proof that you're at least not straight.

[Alleine]

All I want to know is who thinks these things up?


she did a similar thing when I mentioned being an Atheist. She thinks I'm a Christian in denial, and now she thinks I'm straight an in denial.

The more I think about it, the more I think a lot of people(and probably Raistlin's mom included) come up with the idea that bisexuals don't exist because its so against their system of beliefs that they can't and don't want to comprehend the possibility of someone they know/love/care about being bisexual. I suspect and hope that this is the case with Raistlin's mom(hope mainly because for some reason that makes me feel like she isn't doing it because she's a jerk). She has probably tricked herself into thinking that it can't be true because she doesn't want it to be true so badly. So basically, she's the one in denial :smallwink:

Of course, I could be completely wrong.

[Raistlin1040]

My mom works and is friends with with...*counts* five or six gay men, so it's not like she's not tolerant, or anything. But for whatever reason, she just doesn't believe in bisexuality, I can't fathom why.

[Serpentine]

That was pretty much the same situation with my mother. I think it's that they figure sexuality is a two-way switch: You're attracted to either men or women. Normally, for men the switch is on "women", but in others it's on "men". There's no "middle" switch.

[rankrath]

The more I think about it, the more I think a lot of people(and probably Raistlin's mom included) come up with the idea that bisexuals don't exist because its so against their system of beliefs that they can't and don't want to comprehend the possibility of someone they know/love/care about being bisexual. I suspect and hope that this is the case with Raistlin's mom(hope mainly because for some reason that makes me feel like she isn't doing it because she's a jerk). She has probably tricked herself into thinking that it can't be true because she doesn't want it to be true so badly. So basically, she's the one in denial :smallwink:

Of course, I could be completely wrong.

then we need to get everyone to accept queerness as normal, healthy and natural. Now, how to do this, how to do this..... The floor is open to any ideas.

[Alleine]

then we need to get everyone to accept queerness as normal, healthy and natural. Now, how to do this, how to do this..... The floor is open to any ideas.

I could go around beating them in the head with a crowbar until they accept it.
I'm all for that. A good workout, and I get to help people! Sort of...

[Starshade]

That was pretty much the same situation with my mother. I think it's that they figure sexuality is a two-way switch: You're attracted to either men or women. Normally, for men the switch is on "women", but in others it's on "men". There's no "middle" switch.

Well, i think what people believe, is ppl atracts to the oposite sex, so same sex attraction makes one those in such a pair, a bit trans gendered to some degree.
Not suprising, since, if the brain of a person IS of the oposing gender or fairly androgynous, of couse the preference could be different as well..

IE: people dont seperate cross gender behaviour and their choice of partners, so, in some's mind, gay men must like to wear dresses, women who like women often wear short hair, sit on pubs and burp after drinking beer along with truck drivers, chop wood for fun and think Drifting with cars on small roads is fun. :smallamused:

Edit: thinking of it, most i know seem to either be interested in male, or females. But, i do at least know of one woman who's had relations with men and is interested in women for most part, but she dont identify as Bi.

[Tichrondrius]

*Ceases to exist*

*poofs*

Yeah, so... I hate the no bisexuals myth. Back in my old group I got a lot of that, but that was the same group that thought transexuals were only getting sex changes so they wouldn't look 'gay' in public, and ignoring same sex transexual couples...

[Thufir]

My mother told me, many years ago, that she thought bisexuality was just an excuse for promiscuity. I don't know whether her opinion has changed since then.

I really, really hate that opinion. Not that I've ever come across it myself, but it's just a misinterpretation of bisexuality that I find rather offensive.

On reflection, I guess I'm pretty lucky never to have encountered any of these misinterpretations myself. Either my friends are just really good about these things, or they just don't look at my info on facebook.

To be honest, Raistlin, I don't know if there's anything you can really do about this... I mean, trying to directly demonstrate that you're attracted to both genders just feeds into the 'excuse for promiscuity' idea, and clearly just talking it out didn't work... :smallsigh:

[Kneenibble]

If I can tip the rhetorical scales by a few ounces: from your account, Raistlin, your mother handled the matter with the stubborness and grace of a bullock, but surely you can concede that, at not yet 15, your ideas about yourself are totally plastic and prone to turn over and change shape still severally several times in the next five years? Hell, ten? It's not to excuse holding the opinion that bisexuality is delusion, self- or otherwise, but I feel I oughta clear room for that point.

[three08]

my 2¢? let her go ahead and believe "it's a phase" as long as she wants. that oughta keep her out of your hair on the issue, at least.

as kneenibble says, it's not impossible for a person's interests and desires to change - i can back that up from personal experience - but in my case it went from more restricted (ie exclusively gay) to less restrictive (ie semi-bisexual-if-we-really-need-a-label-to-be-going-on-with).

[Coidzor]

I really, really hate that opinion. Not that I've ever come across it myself, but it's just a misinterpretation of bisexuality that I find rather offensive.

To be honest, Raistlin, I don't know if there's anything you can really do about this... I mean, trying to directly demonstrate that you're attracted to both genders just feeds into the 'excuse for promiscuity' idea, and clearly just talking it out didn't work... :smallsigh:

The unfortunate truth of the matter is, if one is going to establish contact with their parents over the internet... they have to go over everything with a fine-tooth comb, and rip all the teeth out of their persona that they can. Hence why I refuse to friend my preacher father on Facebook, mostly by stating that I hardly ever get on there and that my memory for such things is not that great.

I've got the buffer of not living with him anymore though, so it's not like I'm obligated to keep him out/deceive him in order to keep a roof over my head. And he's actually far more permissive/accepting than my mother.

And for some people bisexuality is a phase, or at least, they're only experimenting/renting rather than buying.

I know that was the case for myself.

The worst thing, of course, is that I've known people that are the reason such things as "bisexuality is the new black" or "bisexuality is just a coverlet excuse for being a rampant horny **** with no desire for self control" persist. Occasionally there's a glimmer of truth in most stereotypes. Unfortunately.

I honestly felt bad for those kids, even when they were older than me and kept trying to fill unhappiness with sex and failing miserably. You being fifteen, well... You'd be right in the age category for such shenanigans, so she'd understandably be a bit concerned.

The whole pretending it doesn't exist at all thing is just silly though. Not sure why you took that to heart so much. It just sounds so... ridiculous.

[Ishmael]

Hey guys,

Umm...hi? I'm bisexual. It took a lot for me to finally admit to myself that I found myself physically attracted to males, and a lot more to finally realize that I liked them on an emotional level as well.

Well, sorta. See, I like both sexes almost equally on a physical level. But beyond just, well, lust, I think that my attraction is totally different for males than it is for females. I like guys more in a heterosexual-life-partner-y way, without the heterosexuality. But it's not really...well, husband-wife, or girlfriend-boyfriend love. It's more like an intense companionship, a friendship that is far more than simple friendship. It's weird how that works. I think I can love, in the traditional sense, a woman. Hum.

Of course, I'm still only 18 and lack experience of any kind with either gender. My one relationship with a girl lasted two months, and never involved physicality. I have a pretty well-honed gaydar, but I've never really acted on it, because I don't want a relationship with a guy, in the same sense that I want a relationship with a woman. Argh.

Blarg. So I was going to come out to my parents and some of my friends over winter break, but as time went on, I just kept on putting the thing off and off. I made excuses, and finally just didn't end up spilling any beans. I think I might have been scared on some level--and I really didn't want to cause any drama. Things were so happy, and I was only back home for a short time from college. I didn't want to ruin the bliss and normality with any awkwardness. Grr...the annoying thing is, I would have been totally accepted. Like, my family's already confronted me about being gay, which I'm not--and I hotly denied. They want me to be true to myself, etc. And my friends, well, for the most part they'd be fine too.

It's just, I don't want to be defined as 'the bisexual kid'. I'm myself, and my sexuality is just who I'm attracted to. That's all. I'm afraid of having all these modifiers applied to my identity, just by the nature of whose body I find hot. I don't really fall into any of the stereotypes (well, the stereotypical bisexual is a little different than the archetypal gay, I suppose :p). Ugh.

This really shouldn't be that big of an issue, but it's turning into one.

[RS14]

That was pretty much the same situation with my mother. I think it's that they figure sexuality is a two-way switch: You're attracted to either men or women. Normally, for men the switch is on "women", but in others it's on "men". There's no "middle" switch.
My mom seemed to believe that at one point. She hasn't mentioned it since I came out, though. I'm not sure if this is just politeness, or if she's changed her mind.

I don't like such conversations, so I've not actually asked directly.



Blarg. So I was going to come out to my parents and some of my friends over winter break, but as time went on, I just kept on putting the thing off and off. I made excuses, and finally just didn't end up spilling any beans. I think I might have been scared on some level--and I really didn't want to cause any drama. Things were so happy, and I was only back home for a short time from college. I didn't want to ruin the bliss and normality with any awkwardness. Grr...the annoying thing is, I would have been totally accepted. Like, my family's already confronted me about being gay, which I'm not--and I hotly denied. They want me to be true to myself, etc. And my friends, well, for the most part they'd be fine too.

It's just, I don't want to be defined as 'the bisexual kid'. I'm myself, and my sexuality is just who I'm attracted to. That's all. I'm afraid of having all these modifiers applied to my identity, just by the nature of whose body I find hot. I don't really fall into any of the stereotypes (well, the stereotypical bisexual is a little different than the archetypal gay, I suppose :p). Ugh.

This really shouldn't be that big of an issue, but it's turning into one.

I don't know how close you are with your family you are, but I suggest you just relax about this until spring/summer break, or whenever you see them again. I agree that it isn't really a big deal; it's not something you're obligated to go tell them about right away. So don't let it be an issue now.

That said, if it comes up in conversation, plan to tell them. It's the sensible thing if you're not hiding your bisexuality, and it forces you to make a snap decision, so you have less time to worry. :smalltongue:

[Serpentine]

Found this (http://si.unl.edu/lgbtqa/SafeSpaces/symbols.html) website, and thought y'all might be interested. Also it suggests an alternative, more all-encompassing abbreviation (with Allies an' all!).

[Starshade]

Ishmael:
I think i understand what you mean, liking guys in a emotional way isnt any problem to understand, a deep friendship with emotional bonds, but, for my part, i identify as Straight, and, certainly dont feel same attraction for male as females.
I understand your concern, if ppl hear you call yourself Bi, it would follow some bag of preconceptions, etc.

For my part, its like this:
1. emotionally, i of couse can like and have some deeper 'bonds' to either sex.

2. I have noticed, i CAN be attracted to both, but 95% i prefer Women. Its individually from individ to individ how attractive i find each, soo.. Who knows.

3. I also know i somehow fear it, on some level, deep down, im not confortable with it, even if id probably not even BE attracted enough to initiate even a basic date with a guy if the world was totally Bi.

4. And, i think, the guys id be attracted to, id not *get* on a mental plane. Sometime, i feel as if i got no clue how some other guys work, i might be a little more Androgynous mentally, i AM a guy, but sometime, dont feel i share a jot with some other guys.

Its odd, i got no problems realizing this, but i dont imagine i'd call myself transgendered or genderqueer, possibly a bit androgynous.

I also realize, ive made a big, grave mistake earlier. I once had some issues in school, particularly doing Writing, and simply didint get friends. I did in later years, believe a professional who diagnosed me with Aspergers, hm, i now start suspecting, i possibly, or possibly not, might(or possibly not) be an Aspie, but my sole social problem in school, what i didint know a JOT what whent on in the heads of the majority of boys.

I dont think i go towards either extreme, so i'm happy with being male, my only issue with imagining a relation with a male, as you describe, is i'd feel, i'd understand and possibly like Women, better, in addition to be ATTRACTED to them waay more too.

So, i still call myself straight. :smallbiggrin:

[Phae Nymna]

After an up and down week of finding out that the guy that I like who I thought had said that he was bi now says that he's not bi, persay, but he's been turned on by guys before. To negate that negativity, I am officially Horton the Elephant in the school production of Seussical Jr. (BLECH, I want the real one!)

Today, my nine hours worth of psych testing revealed that I exhibit images and fantasies of grandeur and disconnection, I am as close to ADD as you can get without having ADD, and that I'm likely dysfunctional in processing speed and social anxiety because of my personality conflictions surrounding bisexuality/homosexuality. To be technical, a nigh diagnosis of Schizotypal Personality Disorder, which is centered around emptiness and isolation. I also am hypervigilant to the point of paranoid tendencies. In a creative test that I did I was tangential and made much mention and desire for elevated abilities such as superpowers, magic, and the slightly related field of parapsychology.
The testing comprehensively put my average IQ at about either 117 or 127, I can't remember. While my verbal comprehension was an IQ of 134. My psychiatrist describes this as brilliance verging on genius. Apparently I'm restricted by my processing capability, which is only an IQ of about 80. That sounds pretentious to me, and I feel bad, but that's what they said. I feel pretty average about myself though. That might just be perspective.

tldr:
Obsessed with alternate existences and abilities, exhibits ADD symptoms, intelligent, hypervigilant/paranoid, socially anxious, isolation and emptiness, tangential, and, ad hoc, I apparently draw on only the best of my personalities to act upon, trying to be a sort of Frankenstein's man, also using others for only what I benefit from, without attaching myself to them, and some jargon I don't understand.

I'm headed toward more intensive therapy in the future, possibly aderol, and I've been strongly encouraged to lay low about sexuality.

Also, they said I have concealed/repressed anger and rage toward authority figures and that I'm out of the norm of society when it comes to decisions and feelings toward life and its jumbled contents. Also I have some concealed depression.

The depression is joyous (irony, whee...) because I have a family history of Alcoholism, Depression, and my closest relative was institutionalized as a teen and had a drug problem.

That's about as much as I can remember. Still feel lonely and without gay friends. :smallsigh:

I'm gonna go do more art.

Bye.

[Collin152]

Stuff

...
I love you, you construct of my mind.

[cabbagesquirrel]

I think it's more a huge spectrum but in many different dimensions where peoples sexual expression is on one point of a multiplanal arena.

i.e. you could be mostly into girls but like guys in doing certain activities etc etc, you still adhere to the 'straight; motif but there are aspects that are shall we say not so much. And everyone is on a certain point in this spectrum, to isolate someone as gay, straight, bi or whatever, is just silly, people are weirdos to a fault, so don't stick them in a box with a lable.

As long as you're not harming anyone and legal, any sexual expression is good expression.

[three08]

oboy. the forum finally comes back up and here i have two big ol long posts to which i want to respond. i'll take them in the order in which they were made:
(responses spoilered for length.)

Hey guys,

Umm...hi? I'm bisexual. It took a lot for me to finally admit to myself that I found myself physically attracted to males, and a lot more to finally realize that I liked them on an emotional level as well.

Well, sorta. See, I like both sexes almost equally on a physical level. But beyond just, well, lust, I think that my attraction is totally different for males than it is for females. I like guys more in a heterosexual-life-partner-y way, without the heterosexuality. But it's not really...well, husband-wife, or girlfriend-boyfriend love. It's more like an intense companionship, a friendship that is far more than simple friendship. It's weird how that works. I think I can love, in the traditional sense, a woman. Hum.
...
It's just, I don't want to be defined as 'the bisexual kid'. I'm myself, and my sexuality is just who I'm attracted to. That's all. I'm afraid of having all these modifiers applied to my identity, just by the nature of whose body I find hot. I don't really fall into any of the stereotypes (well, the stereotypical bisexual is a little different than the archetypal gay, I suppose :p). Ugh.

This really shouldn't be that big of an issue, but it's turning into one.
first, congratulations on making that admission / having that realization. even if you don't hold any inherited prejudices against nonheterosexual orientations, it's still scary.

second: the following is not any supposition about what's going on in your head, which i obviously can't know, but rather something i've observed that i suggest thinking about in order to further sort out your feelings and attitudes.

i've seen more than once a pattern in which a dude will initially identify as bisexual but report no desire for a relationship with men, only sexual desire toward them. in some cases this is even coupled with a lack of sexual desire for women, but a stated preference for or orientation towards women for romantic or relationship purposes. over time, in many cases, the gentleman in question will eventually come to realize that he, if not actually gay, is at least fully willing to have a committed and loving relationship with a dude.

i speculate that the reason this happens is that we have no role models for healthy gay relationships, and the models we do have for romantic relationships are all heavily gendered. who opens the door for whom? who surprises whom with flowers? who pays for dinner? there is absolutely no good information disseminated in our cultural mainstream about how to go about a romantic same-sex relationship that doesn't involve one partner adopting the gender role opposite their own, and hey guess what? i'm a dude. i'm alright with being a dude, inasmuch as i do conform to the male gender role. if i wanted to adopt the female gender role i could very easily be a drag queen or identify as transgendered, but i don't, so why should i change my behavior in order to have a relationship?

simple answer is, i shouldn't. i know from substantial personal experience that having a capital-R same-sex Relationship is wholly possible and wholly satisfying.

now, when it comes to the baggage train attached to your sexual orientation label of preference, that's an issue with which you have to decide how to deal on your own, unfortunately. for myself, i don't go out of my way to either identify my sexual orientation or to avoid identifying it, and what i find happens is that people tend to get a pretty good read on how i carry myself before they learn i'm gay, and then when i continue to behave that way even after they find out, even if they're okay with it, they tend to realize that that's just how i roll.

are people's reactions to and interactions with me occasionally colored by their preconceptions about homosexuality? sure. i find that if i can keep a level head and just react to them as if they were a reasonable person asking a reasonable question or making a reasonable, if inaccurate, statement, the whole thing goes much more smoothly and they are less likely to make unwonted assumptions in the future.
onto part 2:


After an up and down week of finding out that the guy that I like who I thought had said that he was bi now says that he's not bi, persay, but he's been turned on by guys before. To negate that negativity, I am officially Horton the Elephant in the school production of Seussical Jr. (BLECH, I want the real one!)

Today, my nine hours worth of psych testing revealed that I exhibit images and fantasies of grandeur and disconnection, I am as close to ADD as you can get without having ADD, and that I'm likely dysfunctional in processing speed and social anxiety because of my personality conflictions surrounding bisexuality/homosexuality. To be technical, a nigh diagnosis of Schizotypal Personality Disorder, which is centered around emptiness and isolation. I also am hypervigilant to the point of paranoid tendencies. In a creative test that I did I was tangential and made much mention and desire for elevated abilities such as superpowers, magic, and the slightly related field of parapsychology.
The testing comprehensively put my average IQ at about either 117 or 127, I can't remember. While my verbal comprehension was an IQ of 134. My psychiatrist describes this as brilliance verging on genius. Apparently I'm restricted by my processing capability, which is only an IQ of about 80. That sounds pretentious to me, and I feel bad, but that's what they said. I feel pretty average about myself though. That might just be perspective.

tldr:
Obsessed with alternate existences and abilities, exhibits ADD symptoms, intelligent, hypervigilant/paranoid, socially anxious, isolation and emptiness, tangential, and, ad hoc, I apparently draw on only the best of my personalities to act upon, trying to be a sort of Frankenstein's man, also using others for only what I benefit from, without attaching myself to them, and some jargon I don't understand.

I'm headed toward more intensive therapy in the future, possibly aderol, and I've been strongly encouraged to lay low about sexuality.

Also, they said I have concealed/repressed anger and rage toward authority figures and that I'm out of the norm of society when it comes to decisions and feelings toward life and its jumbled contents. Also I have some concealed depression.

The depression is joyous (irony, whee...) because I have a family history of Alcoholism, Depression, and my closest relative was institutionalized as a teen and had a drug problem.

That's about as much as I can remember. Still feel lonely and without gay friends. :smallsigh:

I'm gonna go do more art.

Bye.
the first thing that leaps out at me is i'm confused how repressing thoughts about your sexuality is supposed to help when you have anxiety related to them. untrained yokel that i am, i can't imagine any way in which repression is good for anxiety, unless they're hoping you'll "grow out of it".

..."out of the norm of society"? well, yes. heterosexuality is the norm. ask any beer commercial. hostility toward authority figures? i can't imagine why you'd bear any hostility toward our government. they're so wonderfully kind and loving, spreading joy and hope wherever they bomb. or did they mean more immediate authority figures? such as possibly the psychiatric establishment that's telling you the best way to confront the difficult social position your sexuality puts you in is to throw a blanket over your head, jam your fingers in your ears, and shout "ner ner ner"?

man if they had subjected me to any such battery of tests when i was 15, it might've come out almost exactly the same results (except the ADD - although i guess they might've diagnosed me with that for something as simple and honest as reading an english prose translation of the iliad during math class - and the part where you have friends.)

again, untrained yokel's opinion, but what i see is a perhaps atypical but in no way disordered means of relating to and perceiving the world around you coupled with the not entirely ungrounded or unreasonable perception of hostility from that world. (hah - good luck diagramming that sentence.) does this mean you're fine? i think you could tell me - in fact you have told me in the past - that you're not, and that you are experiencing considerable distress. the general psychiatric establishment perspective is that you can't change the world, so you have to change yourself. i'm with them up to the comma, but after that, there's another option: you can adjust your perceptions.

anyone here can tell you there's hostility in the environment, sure, and i'm not saying turn a blind eye to it, but when you subtract out the hostility that's not strong enough to motivate harm toward you, you're generally left with very little. many people have ignorant f***ing opinions. these reflect on their lack of ability to cope, rather than your value as a human being, and can safely be ignored, as the vast majority will do nothing more harmful than shout empty words at you from a safe distance. i'm not saying make out with your boyfriend in the middle of benson hurst - i'm just saying, you may be safer than people tell you. i mean, my boyfriend's mother is the sort of person who, once when i put my arm around her son in a park, told me to stop so we didn't get stabbed. well, i didn't stop. did we get stabbed? no. not then, or any of the times we've done that on the subway, or out and about in the city.

course this isn't something that'll happen overnight. you can't wave your hand and suddenly everything seems alright just because you're looking at it from a different angle. it takes some serious introspection and some hard emotional work to make this happen.

and i'm certainly not saying ignore your therapist(s), because they can help you sort your feelings out and do know things that i don't.

all i'm saying is, there is hope. not only is there hope, there is a lot of it, and there is more every day. by the time you get to the end of this sentence there will be more hope than when you began it. however grim that psychological assessment may be, i know you at least a little bit and you are one pretty neat dude in my book. so hang in there, wally, and try to maintain as optimistic an outlook as you can.

[DrizztFan24]

While I am trying not to sound brash, pig-headed, or uncouth please allow me to ask; Do you people* have a general preference for the term sexual preference over a term such as romantic preference?

*Not that I am trying to lump people together, I simply don't have the proper brain power at the time to create a better form of presentation for my inquiry.

[Coidzor]

I'd never even heard of "romantic preference," I imagine it would only come up with people who want romantic relationships sans sex or with those who are evenly divided about how they feel about body parts but have a preference for one gender over another for a day to day partner.

V: Nevermind.

[Collin152]

While I am trying not to sound brash, pig-headed, or uncouth please allow me to ask; Do you people* have a general preference for the term sexual preference over a term such as romantic preference?

*Not that I am trying to lump people together, I simply don't have the proper brain power at the time to create a better form of presentation for my inquiry.

First time I heard it, but I prefer it at once.
It isn't all about sex!

[Kneenibble]

Heh. "You people." Adorable.
Romantic preference makes me think of something altogether different than what you intend it to mean. It is far too generic, and does not carry the history of usage that could render it specific enough, to be useful.

Another question, aimed in particular at people like dear glamorous SMEE and other transgender people who visit this thread.
In the hypothetical situation that I have a young friend expressing very strong thoughts into the realms of transgender and genderqueer, but who doesn't know a lot about it (and I, in this situation, sure am not qualified to advise) -- is there a book? a flagship, primer kind of book? in the discourse that I can recommend as a place to begin the process of developing and understanding his-herself in that respect?

Edit: PS, Mr. 308, may I please bear your furbies?

[Tichrondrius]

Being technical i've always liked the term Homophile (phile et all) to describe then Homosexual... but that's just semantics on my part. It never really made since to me that sex crime terms (ex. pedophile) get the term that means love added on and we get the sex term.

[SMEE]

Kneenibble:

I know of no book, sadly. I can direct him/her to some pages full of information, but they can be quite graphic.
Other than that, you can direct him/her to me by giving him/her my AIM screenname and my MSN account (they should be in my profile). I might be able to shed some light for his/her situation.

He/she should also seek a psychiatrist who dealt with many TG people to find more answers.

Hope I'll be able to help.

[Starshade]

Well, i know good primer books on a lot of subjects, but not this. Not who i'd sugest without reading first, that is.

[InaVegt]

Being technical i've always liked the term Homophile (phile et all) to describe then Homosexual... but that's just semantics on my part. It never really made since to me that sex crime terms (ex. pedophile) get the term that means love added on and we get the sex term.

Homophile and homophilia are outdated terms, they stigmatized LGBT people because they were lumped together with real paraphilias like Zoophilia, Necrophilia, and Pedophilia.

I consider homophile to be a rather offensive term, exactly because of it's connection to paraphilias.

[Ishmael]

second: the following is not any supposition about what's going on in your head, which i obviously can't know, but rather something i've observed that i suggest thinking about in order to further sort out your feelings and attitudes.

i've seen more than once a pattern in which a dude will initially identify as bisexual but report no desire for a relationship with men, only sexual desire toward them. in some cases this is even coupled with a lack of sexual desire for women, but a stated preference for or orientation towards women for romantic or relationship purposes. over time, in many cases, the gentleman in question will eventually come to realize that he, if not actually gay, is at least fully willing to have a committed and loving relationship with a dude.

i speculate that the reason this happens is that we have no role models for healthy gay relationships, and the models we do have for romantic relationships are all heavily gendered. who opens the door for whom? who surprises whom with flowers? who pays for dinner? there is absolutely no good information disseminated in our cultural mainstream about how to go about a romantic same-sex relationship that doesn't involve one partner adopting the gender role opposite their own, and hey guess what? i'm a dude. i'm alright with being a dude, inasmuch as i do conform to the male gender role. if i wanted to adopt the female gender role i could very easily be a drag queen or identify as transgendered, but i don't, so why should i change my behavior in order to have a relationship?

simple answer is, i shouldn't. i know from substantial personal experience that having a capital-R same-sex Relationship is wholly possible and wholly satisfying.

now, when it comes to the baggage train attached to your sexual orientation label of preference, that's an issue with which you have to decide how to deal on your own, unfortunately. for myself, i don't go out of my way to either identify my sexual orientation or to avoid identifying it, and what i find happens is that people tend to get a pretty good read on how i carry myself before they learn i'm gay, and then when i continue to behave that way even after they find out, even if they're okay with it, they tend to realize that that's just how i roll.

are people's reactions to and interactions with me occasionally colored by their preconceptions about homosexuality? sure. i find that if i can keep a level head and just react to them as if they were a reasonable person asking a reasonable question or making a reasonable, if inaccurate, statement, the whole thing goes much more smoothly and they are less likely to make unwonted assumptions in the future.



Thanks for the advice. I'm definitely attracted, physically, to women, so I'm definitely not gay. I'm pretty content in my bisexuality. Now I've got to get doing something about it.

[three08]

i hope i was clear enough that i in no way deny or object to your bisexuality - the only point i was attempting to communicate is that in my experience most people can have fulfilling romantic relationships with anyone with whom they are sexually compatible. there's a lot of figuring out that needs to happen to make gay relationships work, but i would encourage everyone - bi, straight, or otherwise - to at least be open to engaging in that figuring out process anyway, just because if you fall by default into typical gender roles it's very easy for sexism to creep in and screw sh** up.

some folks object to referring to a "preference" at all, generally because they believe sexuality is biologically-determined and fixed, and so to suggest that it is a matter of preference along the lines of 'i prefer broccoli but will, if pressed, eat green beans,' seems misleading and unfair. these folks tend to prefer language along the lines of 'sexual orientation' which avoid the problem of implied choice.

personally, i'm fine with any term that's not generally recognized as pejorative. when talking or thinking about it i will generally just use the phrase 'sexuality' as a sort of catch-all, because that handily avoids creating boundaries and defining discrete groups.

[Cobra_Ikari]

...hmm. Am I the only one who hopes that instead of hetero- and homo- sexualities, we'll one day define ourselves by andro- or gyno- philias?

[Zarrexaij]

...except, by definition, that ignores those with no sexual preference towards either gender (either truly ambisexual, sexually and romantically attracted to both women and men equally, or asexual) and/or those attracted to third sexes, the transgendered, and what not.

:smallannoyed:

In layman's terms: sexuality, as well as gender, is NOT a dichotomy.

[Ishmael]

Indeed. I think the entire nature of linguistics really obfuscates the truth when it comes to sexuality. In my experience, using terms like 'bisexual', 'gay', or even 'heterosexual' don't really describe the reality. Ugh. Of course, there's no other way to operate--unless we could somehow communicate in Platonic forms or something :p.

I think the entire notion of sexuality is so foolish. It's just trying to apply a word--a symbol--to something that doesn't work well with definitions. Blarg. This is what I get, trying to combine semiotics with sexuality.

[Tichrondrius]

Homophile and homophilia are outdated terms, they stigmatized LGBT people because they were lumped together with real paraphilias like Zoophilia, Necrophilia, and Pedophilia.

I consider homophile to be a rather offensive term, exactly because of it's connection to paraphilias.

My point was- why do the sexual deviants get the word that means love (phile) and we end up with (sexual). Pedosexual? Eh. Doesn't sound as good, but should it really sound good? >< Eh.

[Serpentine]

Heh. "You people." Adorable.
Romantic preference makes me think of something altogether different than what you intend it to mean. It is far too generic, and does not carry the history of usage that could render it specific enough, to be useful.

Another question, aimed in particular at people like dear glamorous SMEE and other transgender people who visit this thread.
In the hypothetical situation that I have a young friend expressing very strong thoughts into the realms of transgender and genderqueer, but who doesn't know a lot about it (and I, in this situation, sure am not qualified to advise) -- is there a book? a flagship, primer kind of book? in the discourse that I can recommend as a place to begin the process of developing and understanding his-herself in that respect?

Edit: PS, Mr. 308, may I please bear your furbies?I was gonna post this a while ago, but never got around to it. If some of their questions are religious in nature, I found this site (ReligiousTolerance.org (http://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu.htm), transexuality page). It's a religious site, but no one religion. Obviously any discussion on the finer points are not allowed, but it's an interesting site nonetheless.
edit: If nothing else, the reference could be useful.

[three08]

i managed to miss that white text, so thanks for the quoting, serp. i don't currently own any furbies, mr nibble, but if i ever somehow end up with some, you are welcome to carry them for me. ;P

(why is it people abbreviate your sn as kneen? can they not parse out the compound word or something? this confuses me.)

i suppose talking about 'sexuality' sort of presupposes that some sexuality is necessary, and thus excludes asexuals, but i don't see why non- or transgendered persons and the ambisexual (ambisextrous (http://www.qwantz.com/archive/001380.html)?) wouldn't also be included in the term.

[Starshade]

third sex? Zarrexaij, you mean about ppl outside the standard gender binary, right?
As example, i know i might like women, who's more or less 'normal', up androgynous or more or less crosses gender roles.
If i admit i might recognize trans gender behaviour and identification in a woman and still love her, would it make me like third sex or partially Pansexual? Most would just call me Straight, since its still women. :smallamused:

[Kneenibble]

That website is very interesting reading, Serpentine, thank you muchly. And thank you also to the other responses to my question -- SMEE, I'll ask my friend if she would be interested and comfortable speaking to you and let you know.

I guess I'm looking for a book that is to transgender what say, Butler's Gender Trouble was for its discipline.


i managed to miss that white text, so thanks for the quoting, serp. i don't currently own any furbies, mr nibble, but if i ever somehow end up with some, you are welcome to carry them for me. ;P

(why is it people abbreviate your sn as kneen? can they not parse out the compound word or something? this confuses me.)
It's actually doubly strange because "Neen" (which has almost no similarity to my actual name) is what my older sister has called me since I was much younger.

:cool:
Thank you for the honour.

[Zarrexaij]

Indeed. I think the entire nature of linguistics really obfuscates the truth when it comes to sexuality. In my experience, using terms like 'bisexual', 'gay', or even 'heterosexual' don't really describe the reality. Ugh. Of course, there's no other way to operate--unless we could somehow communicate in Platonic forms or something :p.

I think the entire notion of sexuality is so foolish. It's just trying to apply a word--a symbol--to something that doesn't work well with definitions. Blarg. This is what I get, trying to combine semiotics with sexuality.Let's give a sarcastic horray for symbolic interaction.

While sexuality and gender are both heavily socially constructed concepts, you cannot really escape them. People have made them real by their interactions, and denying their existence means denying reality.

The problem with limiting sexuality to either being androphiliac or gynephiliac (which I find are horrible terms; once againt the paraphilia connotation comes up) is making sexuality a binary system, which grossly simplifies sexual behavior and romantic partnership.

[Coidzor]

All I've really seen done to shake up the sexual binary is to add two sexes on through surgery and body modification. Maybe bump it up to five with the inclusion of intersex.

The gender binary people keep trying to simply expand it to include more categories, even when they keep claiming that it should be or is a spectrum. It seems that in parlance, it is more useful to have categories for conceptualizing and roughly identifying where an individual falls into place than saying someone's oh, a 2.0,6.0,7.5 on a tri-axial plane of gender, sexuality, and that third one that keeps coming up which slips my mind.

I think it has something to do with the genetic/biological basis of sex, this seeming need to filter people into yea or nay or ???!.

[Zarrexaij]

Sex/gender is far more than just biology and genetics, though.

Afterall, it varies greatly due to context, especially if that context is culture.

Even using biological basis for the definition of sex/gender, you run into cases that are definitely not the norm, even outside the scope of intersexed. There's much more to sex than chromasomes.

[AmberVael]

All I've really seen done to shake up the sexual binary is to add two sexes on through surgery and body modification.

...
I think, somehow, you're missing the point of said surgery.

[Zarrexaij]

...I think, somehow, you're missing the point of said surgery.inorite?

It's completely ignoring the socialization process of gender. To say sex/gender is strictly a biological thing completely ignores how gender roles vary (not to mention creates a process of othering where very rigid concepts of gender are formed) and cases that, once again, don't fit the norm. If gender was strictly a biological thing, it wouldn't vary from culture to culture, within history, or within a culture, and certainly transsexuals (such as myself) would not exist.

[Coidzor]

...
I think, somehow, you're missing the point of said surgery.

And yet, I repeatedly find references to the differences between men and transmen, women and transwomen. Therefore, I must assume that there are differences and that thusly they are and are not what they have become.

I only know what I've witnessed of the discussions and interplays myself, though. The general conceptualization I run into is five sexes, those that cannot be confined within those five are genetic/eugenetic aberrations that have yet to be classed. Of course, this is colored by what I can understand of what I read and hear people say.

[Kaelaroth]

...hmm. Am I the only one who hopes that instead of hetero- and homo- sexualities, we'll one day define ourselves by andro- or gyno- philias?

Yes. Frankly, I feel that's not really what you should consider/worry about. A guy saying he's androphiliac will still freak out homophobes. The current terms make sense, at least, to some degree. In fact, as said earlier, it even links sexuality to paraphilia, at least only in a Lacanian sense.

[Zarrexaij]

If you're going to use the "does not have X" definition, there are plenty of people lacking uteruses, ovaries, testicles, etc. out there who aren't transmen/transwomen that I think most of us would still consider male or female despite the fact they might lack a certain reproductive organ.

[Serpentine]

Sex/gender is far more than just biology and genetics, though.

Afterall, it varies greatly due to context, especially if that context is culture.

Even using biological basis for the definition of sex/gender, you run into cases that are definitely not the norm, even outside the scope of intersexed. There's much more to sex than chromasomes.Uh... Sex is biology and genetics. Even intersex (that's just another name for hermaphrodites, right?) cases are about biology. I think there's an excellent chance that transexuality is too (I'd be more certain if I knew to what extent psychology is biological). Moreover, sex is binary. That doesn't mean that there are no... deviant (for lack of a better word) cases. Some humans are born with a tail or no thumbs. That doesn't stop the definition of a human from being "a bipedal, hairless, tailless ape with opposable thumbs" - it also doesn't stop those tailless or thumbless people from being human.
Gender is socially constructed, possibly with some reflections upon biology. There may be environmental factors that influence sex, but it's still biological and still binary with abnormalities.

[Vorpal Soda]

Uh... Sex is biology and genetics. Even intersex (that's just another name for hermaphrodites, right?) cases are about biology. I think there's an excellent chance that transexuality is too (I'd be more certain if I knew to what extent psychology is biological). Moreover, sex is binary. That doesn't mean that there are no... deviant (for lack of a better word) cases. Some humans are born with a tail or no thumbs. That doesn't stop the definition of a human from being "a bipedal, hairless, tailless ape with opposable thumbs" - it also doesn't stop those tailless or thumbless people from being human.
Gender is socially constructed, possibly with some reflections upon biology. There may be environmental factors that influence sex, but it's still biological and still binary with abnormalities.

Intersex is a more accurate term than hermaphrodite, as someone who is intersexed doesn't fit perfectly into either of the binary sexes, whereas hermaphrodites have male and female sexual organs, and refers more to species of plants and animals where this is normal, rather than rare conditions that don't always involve having sexual organs of both sexes.

The term hermaphrodite can be used to refer to people who are intersexed, but intersex is generally considered to be the better term to use.

[Rama_Lei]

It makes me really glad to see this thread still alive and kicking. I'm going through a withdrawal period of gay friends. From my sophmore year, where half of my female friends relized they were gay, bi, or bi-curious, and some guy friends as well, to junior year, knowing one semi-lesbian, and someone who's a gaydar jammer. Europe in general is tough. How I'm I suppose to find the gays when it's normal for staight guys to have ear piecings, scarves, and tight purple jeans?

[turkishproverb]

You could try asking someone out. :smalltongue:

[SMEE]

Real life test started. It's the second day that I'm living as a woman full time!!! :smallbiggrin:

So far, so much fun. :smallsmile:

[Kaelaroth]

Real life test started. It's the second day that I'm living as a woman full time!!! :smallbiggrin:

So far, so much fun. :smallsmile:

Yaay! :smallbiggrin:
*hugses*

[turkishproverb]

Real life test started. It's the second day that I'm living as a woman full time!!! :smallbiggrin:

So far, so much fun. :smallsmile:

Good for you, and good luck in the future.

[Vorpal Soda]

Real life test started. It's the second day that I'm living as a woman full time!!! :smallbiggrin:

So far, so much fun. :smallsmile:

Seems like a rather appropiate week to start. Good luck in your new identity, and a big soft hug from me, because I like to give big soft hugs to people.

[Ceska]

Uh... Sex is biology and genetics. Even intersex (that's just another name for hermaphrodites, right?) cases are about biology. I think there's an excellent chance that transexuality is too (I'd be more certain if I knew to what extent psychology is biological). Moreover, sex is binary. That doesn't mean that there are no... deviant (for lack of a better word) cases. Some humans are born with a tail or no thumbs. That doesn't stop the definition of a human from being "a bipedal, hairless, tailless ape with opposable thumbs" - it also doesn't stop those tailless or thumbless people from being human.
Gender is socially constructed, possibly with some reflections upon biology. There may be environmental factors that influence sex, but it's still biological and still binary with abnormalities.

Serp, I think you're kinda missing the difference between genetics, a sub-field of biology, and biology. Biology is per definition a scientific field concerned with the study of living organisms and their interaction between them and their environment.
Psychology is concerned with (human) mental functions and behaviour. Both of which is part of biology.

Anyway, human sex is binary, at least on the surface. But nature always looks simple on the surface, when you dig deeper you find out that it's a lot more complex. We use a binary definition, defined by chromosomes, as working definition, but that's only because it works in 98 odd per cent of the cases, not because that is entirely correct.


Sex/gender is far more than just biology and genetics, though.
In this part Serp was entirely correct though, both sex and gender are nothing more than biology. Sex is genetics, gender biology, since human behaviour is part of biology. That the definition of both is far too strict IMO is a different matter, they still stay part of biology.

[Serpentine]

I'm not totally convinced that psychology, and therefore gender, come under biology, but biology is a very broad term, so I'll go with it. I would've described gender as being a combination of psychology and sociology, though. Does the latter really come into biological sciences? But anyway, yeah, I pretty much agree with you. Maybe it'd be more accurate to say that sex is physiological, while gender is psychological and/or sociological, with possibly some reflections on physiology.

[Ceska]

I'm not totally convinced that psychology, and therefore gender, come under biology, but biology is a very broad term, so I'll go with it. I would've described gender as being a combination of psychology and sociology, though. Does the latter really come into biological sciences?
It should be per definition, but the respective sciences have grown the way they did mostly because humans think humans are special, which is forgiveable, if not entirely correct. However, psychology and sociology are concerned with human interaction and behaviour, and both should be part of zoology.

But anyway, yeah, I pretty much agree with you. Maybe it'd be more accurate to say that sex is physiological, while gender is psychological and/or sociological, with possibly some reflections on physiology.
This definition is far better and sums up my stance as well.

[Neithan]

I think our minds are the product of our experiences, that are processed depending on how our brain is gone.
The same experiences would create a different mind, if these experiences are processed by a different brain. But it depends highly on what experiences we make, and is not hardwired in our brains before we make the experiences.

There are definately hormons and chemicals in our brains at work, which are influenced by our physical condition and our moods, which are again a result of our experiences and our current physical condition. Which is also influenced by our moods.
I'm pretty sure there's a significant biological part at play, but the whole thing is so complex, that you'll never know what did what, and what would be the result if you change a specific thing. So it's futile to search about why and how people are as they are.
And as long as people are fine with it, what does it matter? :smallbiggrin:

third sex? Zarrexaij, you mean about ppl outside the standard gender binary, right?
As example, i know i might like women, who's more or less 'normal', up androgynous or more or less crosses gender roles.
If i admit i might recognize trans gender behaviour and identification in a woman and still love her, would it make me like third sex or partially Pansexual? Most would just call me Straight, since its still women. :smallamused:

And that's why the male-female/homo-hetero system fails. :smallbiggrin:

[Starshade]

Serpentine: the "i am a man" "i am a woman" part, as well as any other constructs, are, on top social, and come from our socialization. but:

As far i understand, crossing gender boundaries, and raising a physically male to be a woman, dont work. Its been tried, and, it wont work (a case discussed in gender studies too, think Butler wrote a book about it).
We got a buildt in "gender", biologically, who make us who we are. Certain constraints, exist, who make us, 'us'. No social constraints can alter our true selves, only make us sad, disillusioned and feel not fitting in if we're seen as "wrong".

Myself, well, i thought a bit more.

Gender is not sex, and the born sex is not determining gender/sex attraction.
Physical sexual attraction, dont determine the gender. People seem to mix up those three, thus think, all females liking female's are partially male (or one of them being " the guy in the relationship"). And equally, for the men.
Neither seem to be true, but any same sex relationship of this character need to be a bit flexible, of course, as male-female relationships SHOULD have been, in any case. :smalltongue:

The childhood experiences of, say, an androgynous brain in a male body, and same type of androgyne in male body, would be totally different, simply due to, our societies permitted gender expression.
- It dont mean, they can face SAME issue. An androgyne girl, in a society not PERMITTING male tendencies, would have same issues with their situation as a male androgyne in a really "manly manish" society with few feminine ways of expression.

Neithan: ive done some more thinking on that part you quoted. An interesting fact, is oposites attract each others. And: Androgynes GOT NO oposites. Such, they seem to feel attracted to third gender like behaviour, or could like oposite sex as normal, but like any spectrum of genderish behaviour or visual expression.
Yes: the binary, sometime, fail totally. :smallbiggrin:

[Neithan]

An interesting fact, is oposites attract each others. And: Androgynes GOT NO oposites. Such, they seem to feel attracted to third gender like behaviour, or could like oposite sex as normal, but like any spectrum of genderish behaviour or visual expression.
But "like attracts alike".

But I fear I have to confirm the other part of your statement. :smallbiggrin:
Men and women are a bit "mundane"... :smallwink:

[Kneenibble]

This discussion is good reading.

I'm heading down a very challenging dramatic road in the next six weeks. I have to play le Chevalier d'Eon, the interpretation of the dramatic figure in a Canadian play called Monsieur d'Eon is a Woman. Is anybody with eyes on this thread familiar with either the historical figure or the script?

I'm trying to gather data right now to prepare me to approach this character, this character written with an invisible muse of Jeanne d'Arc (need I explicate the layers that signifies?), who lives his life as a man in the first act, and comes to identify as a woman in the second; a play whose closing moment is, "The FRIEND raises the sheet and MRS. COLE ducks down to look. She looks again to make sure then pops her head back up. It's so... big!" A character who is a committed virgin, in an 18th century world of camp and sex; a play where roles are cast cross-gender across the board.

How do I crack this role's crust? How do I, with integrity, embody this character for the public? How can I deliver all this sex and gender ambiguity from a place that is personally resonant? I'm not seeking answers, just a space to air the questions.

The play is SO GOOD. It asks all the right questions. And the historical figure on which it is based is ****ing fascinating.

That's all I got.

[Neithan]

That sounds really fun.

But I think to provide some ideas to how to approach this, we need more information.
What's the characters life story, what's the characters current social environment, what's going on in the play? Stuff like that.

[Exeson]

Well yeh. I have made two anonymous posts in this series of threads before. Simply under E. and I can now proudly and safely say I am bisexual.

I have always thought that I might be bisexual, apparently all it took was half a bottle of brandy for me to sum up the balls to kiss one of my male friends.... and other stuff. :smallwink:

Since then I gained confidence and now no longer need alcohol to accept who I am. Yay.

I have been fairly open about it among my friends, and it is very funny to see them sometimes actually get worried when I jokingly make a pass on them just to mess with their mind. now they know I might be being serious. Heh. :smallamused:

[Kaelaroth]

Well yeh. I have made two anonymous posts in this series of threads before. Simply under E. and I can now proudly and safely say I am bisexual.
I have always thought that I might be bisexual, apparently all it took was half a bottle of brandy for me to sum up the balls to kiss one of my male friends.... and other stuff. :smallwink:
Since then I gained confidence and now no longer need alcohol to accept who I am. Yay.
I have been fairly open about it among my friends, and it is very funny to see them sometimes actually get worried when I jokingly make a pass on them just to mess with their mind. now they know I might be being serious. Heh. :smallamused:

Lucky you. :smallsmile: If only I had your confidence.
Alas. Well, that's incredibly awesome.
*blows a party popper*

[Collin152]

So, some massive amount of time ago, I recall someone complaining about being set up with people. I forget the details but...
I don't see the catch. It seems to be suspiciously smooth operating. It's like, bizarro world. But the craziest part?
I predicted it last December, right down to the time frame, even though I hadn't met any of the people involved in it then. Wiiiiiiiierd. But awesome.

[Dihan]

Lucky Exeson is lucky.

Ah well, there's always uni in September.

[Neithan]

Welcome to the club.

[Calamity]

Lucky Exeson is lucky.

Ah well, there's always uni in September.

It can't come fast enough...

[Phae Nymna]

Well yeh. I have made two anonymous posts in this series of threads before. Simply under E. and I can now proudly and safely say I am bisexual.

I have always thought that I might be bisexual, apparently all it took was half a bottle of brandy for me to sum up the balls to kiss one of my male friends.... and other stuff. :smallwink:

Since then I gained confidence and now no longer need alcohol to accept who I am. Yay.

I have been fairly open about it among my friends, and it is very funny to see them sometimes actually get worried when I jokingly make a pass on them just to mess with their mind. now they know I might be being serious. Heh. :smallamused:
YAHAY!
*bakes cake*
Emotionally strong Exeson is emotionally strong!

Also, I had this odd little conversation with my mother the other day. I'm out to my parents, but I, of all people, shut down most conversations about it.

*Me and Mom are sitting on couch watching Heroes*
Me: Y'know, Sylar is reeeeally hot.
Mom: Who?
Me: The guy right there who pinned the guy to a chair.
Mom: Oh. . .
*pause*
Mom: You mean you think he's attractive?
Me: Very.
Mom: You mean, in a gay way?
Me: Well I certainly don't belive myself to be female, so, yes, I find him, another man, attractive.
Mom: . . .

I told her because she said she wanted to try to hear more and understand more about how I feel about people opposed to how my straight older brother does.

Also, on the whole more older brothers = +% gay, I'm one of two, but my mom had six miscarriages. Was it inevitable? STAY TUNED, FOLKS.

My school is finally moving out of the Dark Ages. With the three performances of The Laramie Project this year by students and more chatter in the community, the administration has founded a Queer-Straight Alliance. Or something similar. I want to pop in sometime, and see if there's anyone I know. Not to gossip, but to know so we can talk.

Over and Out,
-Admiral

[Dihan]

It can't come fast enough...

Unluckily for you I'll be going further away.

[Calamity]

Unluckily for you I'll be going further away.

>.< I know... but, at least you'll be able to vist sometime?

@AW: Wow, that sounds like an awkward conversation. At least I'd find it awkward. But then again I'm just awkward in general.

[Rama_Lei]

I think next time anyone complains about the size of their dating pool, I'm going to slap them. Seriously. No openly gay guys in my my high school. Which is the only English school for about 5 hours. I don't speak fluent German, don't feel confident or safe going to a gay bar, and I'm in THE most Catholic area of Germany. So yeah. Your odds are better than mine.

[Neithan]

Say... Where exactly are you?
Oberbayern? :smallbiggrin:

[Neithan]

Also, on the whole more older brothers = +% gay, I'm one of two, but my mom had six miscarriages. Was it inevitable? STAY TUNED, FOLKS.
Don't say such things in public. Makes us appear as if we are a social defect.

[Serpentine]

Don't say such things in public. Makes us appear as if we are a social defect.Eh? :smallconfused: There's been a study that found a correlation between the number of brothers and (male) homosexuality. They think that multiple male offspring causes some sort of change in the womb that makes it more likely that a son will be gay. If anything, it implies that it has a biological purpose - say, because there's a bunch of straight older offspring to breed, you can afford to have a non-breeder to help raise any new young family members.
Seriously, I repeat: Eh? :confused: "Don't say it in public" indeed... If anything, it means you're be a biological defect :smallwink:

[Neithan]

I clearify: "Don't say it like that."

I guess the statistical correlation is there, but don't say such things as "was probably inevitable".
Maybe it's a way to get a semblance of tollerance from stupid people, but I belive we should aim for being accepted because we're just people, who are not threat to anyone. Not because we can explain why we have become who we are.

Maybe it's just me, but when someone says something like "Yes, but I can explain why...", it appears to allready imply a aknowledgement of ones own "fault". I don't want to say that anyone here, or anywhere else, does actually feel that way. But I think it can easily be understood as such.

It's possible that I feel uncomfortable with this because of my actual social reality, where I experience absolutely no discrimination or hostility at all. But maybe in places where society has not come that far regarding this issue, people have to archieve a minimum of tollerance first, before hoping to find real acceptance. I don't know.

But I really belife than any queer people must not start to belive, even unconsciously, that they have a condition that is "wrong" in some way and that they would have to explain to others.

[Exeson]

YAHAY!
*bakes cake*
Emotionally strong Exeson is emotionally strong!

Eh. Not really, I just got sick of buying alcohol all the time. Wait, I still do. >.>

It just got to the point where I was luck, '**** it, I might as well just admit it'. Not really emotional strength, more emotional laziness. :smalltongue:

And Serp, that actually makes sense, seeing as ideally you want more females than males around, or at least breeding males anyway.

[Collin152]

Eh? :smallconfused: There's been a study that found a correlation between the number of brothers and (male) homosexuality. They think that multiple male offspring causes some sort of change in the womb that makes it more likely that a son will be gay. If anything, it implies that it has a biological purpose - say, because there's a bunch of straight older offspring to breed, you can afford to have a non-breeder to help raise any new young family members.
Seriously, I repeat: Eh? :confused: "Don't say it in public" indeed... If anything, it means you're be a biological defect :smallwink:

That... I like that theory, as it relates to the philosophy that forms the face of my Evil Plan to save the world. Let's work on making people believe that. We'll call it phase one.

[Thurbane]

At the risk of getting myself flamed, I have to ask a question. Isn't it a little... odd... to be proud of your sexuality? I see a lot of people saying "I'm proud to be gay" or "I'm proud to be bisexual", but isn't it something you just are?

Isn't it also a little provocative? If people were to go around saying "I'm proud of being white" they would instantly get labeled as some kind of racist...

I don't mean that people should be ashamed of their sexuality, I just don't see it as something people need to be proud of, any more than I should be proud of being right-handed, or being tall.

If I'm missing the point here, please enlighten me. Please note: this is not meant to be a slam of anyone or any group, I just wanted to ask the question.

[Collin152]

Isn't it also a little provocative? If people were to go around saying "I'm proud of being white" they would instantly get labeled as some kind of racist...

Well, you've got a false analogy running here. What you've compared it to is more like saying "I'm proud to be straight".

It's more like a black person in the, say, 50's saying "I'm proud to be black". We are a minority, you know.

[Dihan]

It's only natural for the minorities to put on a brave face and say they're proud of what they are. If you can't be proud of what you are when not many others will, then what can you do? It's all about acceptance. You don't get 'Straight Pride' or anything because it's already accepted.

[Ishmael]

Thurbane, I completely agree with you insofar that 'queer pride' creates an inherent dichotomy between queer and straight people, which shouldn't really exist (and that sort of isolates bisexuals, like me, who operate more on a continuum, and don't like to be put on either side of a polar system).

However, when I began to think of it in terms of repression--where the 'gay community' exists to avoid repression and increase visibility--it made much more sense. Ideally, the queer rights movement should work for assimilation, where a queer person is indistinguishable from any other person, aside from their sexuality (sort of how race is treated in most places, now). But there's a major difficulty with that. Sexualities a lot less visible, so total assimilation makes things kind of difficult--it makes dating a lot harder, for one thing. And, well, though things are a lot better now--depending on a bunch of factors (being in the Bay Area at the moment, just a subway trip away from where Harvey Milk basically started the queer rights movement, I experience less repression than someone in inner Arkansas), there's still a ton of negative energy directed against queer people.

I don't know. I don't consider myself a member of the 'queer community', and I have no desire to join this 'community'. I happen to be bisexual, but I'm not going to define myself by that. It's not even really a part of who I am, it's just who I happen to be attracted to. I support queer rights (notice, I'm trying to use the blanket term queer rather than the monstrous LGTBQQAI acronym, since it's impossible to pin everyone down on the spectrum of sexuality...), but I'm sort of disconnected to the 'community' as a whole.

[Serpentine]

Neithan: We know why some people have black skin, why some people have blue eyes, why women tend to really like chocolate, why some babies are born with big lumps on their heads, why some people are left handed and some are right. Why the bajeebus shouldn't we know why some people are gay and some are straight? And why on Earth shouldn't we discuss it? Of course there are always going to be some people who misuse the information, but that's the fault of the people, not the info. No matter what explanation - or, quite probably, combination of explanations - you come up with for this particular phenomenon, whether genetic, biological (wombal?), sociological, psychological, or whatever, there are going to be douches who take that to mean it's a bad thing. To take another example: Women are generally "more emotional" than men. I believe the current explanations are due to evolutionary developments and ancient, ancient roles, but I have no doubt that there's many others - say, "women were made inferior, and excessive emotion is just another of their demonstrable flaws". You take this fact - "women tend to be more emotional than men" - and give it an explanation, no matter what that might be, there are going to be a whole bunch of chauvinists who take it to confirm what they knew all along, that women are naturally weak. That doesn't mean we should stop studying or discussing female psychology.

Thurbane: I think I may have asked something similar myself. How about this? Think back to the women's and black rights movements. There were people chanting then that they were proud to be female or black, and flaunting it wherever they could, because they needed to not only acknowledge their own... condition?, but to force everyone else to acknowledge and accept it, and the fact that they aren't and shouldn't be ashamed of it. While the gay rights movement occured around the same time, in far too many places it is still, by necessity, going on. So, the gay community isn't yet able to put down the chants, even if the protests have settled now.

[Collin152]

the info. No matter what explanation - or, quite probably, combination of explanations - you come up with for this particular phenomenon, whether genetic, biological (wombal?), sociological, psychological, or whatever,

Don't forget magical. It's my working theory that the queer are the chosen people, cursed with difficulty in direct reproduction of our kind so we don't overthrow the lesser humans prematurely, and that it is our destiny to someday do that very thing.

[Serpentine]

You're right, I should have included "imaginary" :smallwink:

[Collin152]

You're right, I should have included "imaginary" :smallwink:

If I think it's real, it's not imaginary, it's insane, darlinger.

[rankrath]

If I think it's real, it's not imaginary, it's insane, darlinger.

ah, but if wasn't imaginary, it wouldn't be insane.

[Collin152]

ah, but if wasn't imaginary, it wouldn't be insane.

See, it's things like that that make me insane, because if it's not imaginary and not insane, it must be real, which it isn't, so it's imaginary, except I believe it, so it's insane, so I'm insane, so anything I say is insane, real or not, except that if it's real it's also real, but still insane, because I"m insane. After all, I'm real and insane, so why can't the things I say be both?

[Serpentine]

It can be imaginary and insane. Which is what Rankles was getting at, methinks.

[Collin152]

It can be imaginary and insane. Which is what Rankles was getting at, methinks.

Of course not, because insane people don't have imaginations, we have our insane versions of reality. Well, us one-dimensional ones anyways.

Oh, semi-thread-relevant question: Does the title "boyfriend elect" strike a strange chord to anyone elses ears?

[Recaiden]

Oh, semi-thread-relevant question: Does the title "boyfriend elect" strike a strange chord to anyone elses ears?

A little. Seriously, just a tiny bit, no more.

[turkishproverb]

I clearify: "Don't say it like that."

I guess the statistical correlation is there, but don't say such things as "was probably inevitable".
Maybe it's a way to get a semblance of tollerance from stupid people, but I belive we should aim for being accepted because we're just people, who are not threat to anyone. Not because we can explain why we have become who we are.

Maybe it's just me, but when someone says something like "Yes, but I can explain why...", it appears to allready imply a aknowledgement of ones own "fault". I don't want to say that anyone here, or anywhere else, does actually feel that way. But I think it can easily be understood as such.

It's possible that I feel uncomfortable with this because of my actual social reality, where I experience absolutely no discrimination or hostility at all. But maybe in places where society has not come that far regarding this issue, people have to archieve a minimum of tollerance first, before hoping to find real acceptance. I don't know.

But I really belife than any queer people must not start to belive, even unconsciously, that they have a condition that is "wrong" in some way and that they would have to explain to others.

See, I'm inclined to agree, especially insofar as this "cause" business is really only going to lead ot certain people wanting to find a "cure".

[Coidzor]

Do you ever sometimes wish that you were into the sex you're not attracted to physically due to meeting someone that strikes you as pretty cool, but ultimately know that your fondness for them couldn't overcome the lack of physical chemistry?

[Quincunx]

Thurbane: First, the heterosexual are flaunting it more than any other sexual group, but that's become background noise for the most part. Second, actions which seem outrageous to the well-adjusted give a kick-start to people who don't feel equal or well-adjusted. Somehow a big statement paired with small self-esteem adds up to finding your voice when an even-handed statement paired with the small self-esteem keeps your mouth glued shut. Outrageous statements. Excess energies. Muses on a budget.

Coidzor: To quote a woman a lot wiser in relationships* than I was, "Hun, I don't do charity work any more". There's enough good people flailing around lost in anyone's dating pool that no one needs to cross boundaries for another one unless one wants to cross boundaries in the first place.

*board-friendly substitution

[Thufir]

Oh, semi-thread-relevant question: Does the title "boyfriend elect" strike a strange chord to anyone elses ears?

I imagine most people would just find it weird. To me, it just seems like an unusual Mikado reference.

On the queer pride thing, I'd say that because we're a minority, pride kind of makes sense, except it's not exactly pride in being whatever sexuality we are, just pride in being confident enough to admit it, despite it going against the norm.
Myself, I wouldn't say I'm especially proud to be bi, except insofar as I'm just kind of proud to be me. My sexuality is just another aspect of that.

[Neithan]

Neithan: We know why some people have black skin, why some people have blue eyes, why women tend to really like chocolate, why some babies are born with big lumps on their heads, why some people are left handed and some are right. Why the bajeebus shouldn't we know why some people are gay and some are straight? And why on Earth shouldn't we discuss it? Of course there are always going to be some people who misuse the information, but that's the fault of the people, not the info.
That's all completely true, of course. But I strongly belive that this must not be the reason why people should accept us. They should accept us, because they realize that experiencing or living your homosexual or whatever sexuality, is in no way a greater cause for social problems than peoples heterosexual sexuality.

As you said, we can explain through genetics and evolution, why people are black. But that does not stop racism against black people at all! We can explain that a pitbull has a strong tendency to get extremely agressive because of his genes and breeding, but that doesn't stop the pitbull from being potentially extremely dangerous. And I strongly fear that people, who think that gay people are dangerous in whatever weired way their twisted minds made up, won't stop doing so just because you tell them it might be in the DNA.

And in my personal belive, we should really downplay this genetic and psychologial aspect, because it doesn't further real acceptance and tollerance at all.
There might be some extreme cases in the american midwest (don't want to offend anyone, we also have lots of completely crazy guys in urban germany), where some people are genuinely concerned about gay people because they think it's a mental disorder. They might maybe be relieved that the "symptoms" are completely harmless to the individual and that is't simply a normal human trait, like skin or hair color. But except for those rare cases, I don't think it helps at all to try to convince people to accept gays with genetics and psychology.
Homophobia is not a gentic problem, but a social problem, and I belive we should discuss it as such.

As I said before, I'm probably one of very few people who is fortunate to live with such few prejudice. Maybe there are really places in the world, where homophobia is the result of concern for the mental health of gays, and not simple fear of the unknown. I don't know these places and maybe that approach really does help to make a start to getting full acceptance.
But I still belive that gay people should not start to fall into this line of thought themselves.

[Ethrael]

Collin- Your trail of thoughts confuses me... :smalltongue:

And @Exeson, welcome! And congratulations for the show of courage. :smallbiggrin:

[Collin152]

Collin- Your trail of thoughts confuses me... :smalltongue:

Oh? Mamma mia, does it show again?
I mean, I'm thinking even more behind the scenes. What aint'cha following hunarlingheart?

[rankrath]

Of course not, because insane people don't have imaginations, we have our insane versions of reality. Well, us one-dimensional ones anyways.


No, insane people cannot distinguish between imagination and reality.

[Collin152]

No, insane people cannot distinguish between imagination and reality.

And if you think about it the way I do, that only renders my argument even more valid.

[rankrath]

And if you think about it the way I do, that only renders my argument even more valid.

no, your argument is that you think something imaginary is real, which makes you insane. You then go on to claim that since you're insane, what you imagine is real, which is only proof of your insanity.

[Collin152]

no, your argument is that you think something imaginary is real, which makes you insane. You then go on to claim that since you're insane, what you imagine is real, which is only proof of your insanity.

I thought that was my argument.

[rankrath]

I thought that was my argument.

no, that's my argument

[Collin152]

no, that's my argument

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure all of my points thusfar have been pointing towards me being mad as a hatter.

[rankrath]

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure all of my points thusfar have been pointing towards me being mad as a hatter.

I think we've been arguing towards the same point, using different methods. You, using non logic, due to being insane, and me using logic due to being bored with insanity.

[Serpentine]

And I strongly fear that people, who think that gay people are dangerous in whatever weired way their twisted minds made up, won't stop doing so just because you tell them it might be in the DNA.Not many of them, no. Neither will hiding and ignoring and hushing-up the facts. And the brothers thing isn't about DNA, it's about some condition in the womb.

[Coidzor]

Not many of them, no. Neither will hiding and ignoring and hushing-up the facts. And the brothers thing isn't about DNA, it's about some condition in the womb.

Indeed, I believe the term I heard applied was... epigenetics. Basically the conditions in the womb seem like they are throwing some kind of switch that activates such things.

[Dogmantra]

I'd like to say thanks to all you guys here.
Reading this thread has really helped me, and I've "come out" to a couple of friends who I can trust. I said (and believe) that I'm bicurious, but it's not heterosexual but interested in same-sex relations, it's homosexual and interested (but really not very much, to the point I could label myself as gay and have it not get "in the way" for the most part) in opposite-sex relationships. The one thing is: I haven't said a thing to my parents. It's not so much that they won't be okay with it, it's more that I'm just nervous about admitting it to them, so any advice?

The discussion about womb conditions and number of older brothers is very interesting. From what I understand (though I haven't really spoken much about it), there were a few failed births before I was born, plus I have an older brother. The testosterone thing's also really interesting, because I've heard reports saying "Girls are more likely to x and boys are more likely to y", or even "Girls do x and boys do y", and I find myself thinking "Then why do I do x?". I have felt very female at times, but it's not really a desire, more a way I am, probably just some rogue testosterone or something.

Once again though, thanks for all you fantastic and supportive people here at GitP :smallwink:

[Serpentine]

The testosterone thing's also really interesting, because I've heard reports saying "Girls are more likely to x and boys are more likely to y", or even "Girls do x and boys do y", and I find myself thinking "Then why do I do x?".Because "more likely to" indicates a trend, not a rule :smalltongue:

[Neithan]

As the statisticans say: Don't mix correlation with causality. :smallwink:

Reading this thread has really helped me, and I've "come out" to a couple of friends who I can trust. I said (and believe) that I'm bicurious, but it's not heterosexual but interested in same-sex relations, it's homosexual and interested (but really not very much, to the point I could label myself as gay and have it not get "in the way" for the most part) in opposite-sex relationships. The one thing is: I haven't said a thing to my parents. It's not so much that they won't be okay with it, it's more that I'm just nervous about admitting it to them, so any advice?
Yeah, I know. It's just weired.
I have few problems with telling it, when the issue comes up. But how to bring it up?
Why would they have to know? It's not that it would change anything (ideally). So why go there and say "Hey, I'm bisexual"?
But you do want to have it out in the open.

It's just weired. :smallbiggrin:

My guess is, that it's probably the easiest way not to try to bring it up in conversation, but to just go to them and say, "hey I'm bisexual (or gay or whatever)". Still weired but much less so.
Or if you think it would be easier, just grab one of yur parents while the other is not around. That's what I did. Not that I thought my father wouldn't like it, but I think it just felt easier to talk to my mother about it. Let her handle the rest.
Well, at least I hope she did. My parents are cool, and I don't live with them anymore, so it never came up again. Would be really weired if she thought it was confidential and my father never knew all these years. :smallbiggrin:

[Dogmantra]

Because "more likely to" indicates a trend, not a rule :smalltongue:
Ah, but what about when it's presented as fact?
Either something odd is going on, or those golly-gosh-darned scientists are hiding something.

Either way, that testosterone thing explains a lot... The things they don't tell you in Biology lessons...

Anyway, thanks for listening, and for the advice, except you, Serp :smalltongue:

[Neithan]

Ah, but what about when it's presented as fact?
Either something odd is going on, or those golly-gosh-darned scientists are hiding something.

Either way, that testosterone thing explains a lot... The things they don't tell you in Biology lessons...
I thought it was said by an american, but I really can't find the quote with google at all.
But in germany we have the proverb: "Don't trust any statistic that you didn't make up yourself." :smallbiggrin:

But I did find a lot of funny ones. Like In ancient times they had no statistics so they had to fall back on lies. Or you can use almost any statistic to bo prove and refute any fact at the same time.

And of course, 68% of all statistcs are made up anyway. :smallwink:

[cabbagesquirrel]

The whole womb thing may be a trend or something I dunno. But I'm an identical twin, he's just got married to his fiance and I'm a big old homo. :smalltongue:
So maybe the left side of the womb was a little different to the right side of the womb or something.
But yeah, no older siblings or anything, identical twins, one gay, one straight. Go figure.

Also I'm of the opinion everyone is insane, just in different amounts. People like Britney Spears for example, that's insane. And some people eat marmite, and should be shot.

[Serpentine]

Anyway, thanks for listening, and for the advice, except you, Serp :smalltongue::frown: >Clutches heart, wounded, and falls to the floor<

[Rama_Lei]

:frown: >Clutches heart, wounded, and falls to the floor<
NOOOOO! This call for an emergency ration of hilarious sterotypes! The high school I started attending this year had lots of new teachers this year, including a gay couple, who have an adopted child. Met one of them during my Red Cross Course and he was a nice guy. Silent victory for homo-kind aside, I started my publications elective two weeks ago. We had to read through old school magazines and I picked up the first one from this year. I was reading the new teacher mini-bio's and when I got to his, it said "once appeared on an episode of Will and Grace". That kept me laughing for a couple of weeks.

[Collin152]

The whole womb thing may be a trend or something I dunno. But I'm an identical twin, he's just got married to his fiance and I'm a big old homo. :smalltongue:
So maybe the left side of the womb was a little different to the right side of the womb or something.
But yeah, no older siblings or anything, identical twins, one gay, one straight. Go figure.

This is interesting and important. Don't be alarmed if you and your brother are spontaneoulsy abducted from the streets and wake up in a laboratory of some kind. You won't remember it afterwards anyways.
For the benefit of us all.

After all, if we know how to make it happen, we can open doors that once were closed, give opportunities to all mankind, show them things to which they were hitherto blind! It is the only logical course of action; we must find the cause of the various queer identities, anbd find a way to bless our less-envisioned brethren with our sight, with our world!

[Anuan]

*pats Collin on the head* Yes, yes, of course.
I went through a lot of confusion with my sexuality-identity a few years ago, bi-curiosity, pondering a few androgynous and feminine aspects of myself (personality and physicality-wise; this was before weight-gain from both working out and from stopping working out, after I'd grown my hair but before I gree my goatee) and a lot of comments by other people on said aspects. I got hit on by guys a lot who said their 'gaydar' (that term makes me lol) had pointed me out.

Eventually I figured out that despite all the confusion, I'm one of the (apparently rare) people that came out of the period of heavy questioning as a heterosexual biological and psychological male.
I guess I count as an Ally?

[Felixaar]

On that subject, are any of those little LGBT supporter badges around? I'd like to put one in my sig.

[Neithan]

This one?


http://www.smeenet.org/images/LGBTitP.png


Also I'm of the opinion everyone is insane, just in different amounts. People like Britney Spears for example, that's insane. And some people eat marmite, and should be shot.
"When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained."

Strange thing: It really does. :smallconfused:

[mercurymaline]

^
That's LGBTitp. I think an "Ally" would use the "Straight But Not Narrow" banner. I think they're both available for anyone who wants them...but don't quote me on that.

[Anuan]

I'm sure I've seen a LGBTitP Supporter badge somewhere... LGBTitP was rainbow shades and Supporter was, like, brown. Or something.

[mercurymaline]

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z270/coolcalbert/LGBTitP.gif

^This one?

[Anuan]

Aye, that'd be the one. Thankin ye. I hadn't noticed it was a single image with the straight but not narrow inside it.

[Collin152]

*pats Collin on the head* Yes, yes, of course.


Collin does not take well to being treated like a pet. The irony of Collin biting people who do so is not usually visited; they're usually too preocupied with the removal of my teeth from their flesh to argue such intricacies. :smallannoyed:

[mercurymaline]

Collin does not take well to being treated like a pet. The irony of Collin biting people who do so is not usually visited; they're usually too preocupied with the removal of my teeth from their flesh to argue such intricacies. :smallannoyed:

Must...resist...

Nope. Can't do it. *scritches Collin behind the ears*

[bryanthelion]

Hey, It seems like the topic is on signature ideas, but...

I'm going to use this forum!
And I'm gay!
Lulz, Ok, so what is the subject besides signature ideas, I saw breast milk donations on the first page, but...