Evil theft.

[Zeitgeist]

I didn't want to derail the topic I got these quotes from any further, but I am interested in the discussion:


Comes under Theft, which by BoVD is always evil.


Haven't read BoVD (Book of Vile Darkness, right?) but this seems rather odd. While I could see how someone would lable "ordinary" theft as evil (and perhaps webcomic art theft as well) I don't really see how something like a poor person stealing a loaf of bread or so would be considered evil. Isn't Robin Hood generally considered Chaotic Good? He did quite a bit of stealing, that one.


one argument is he was only stealing from "thieves"- men who taxed to line their pockets rather than putting those taxes into running society- nd returned the money to people it was "stolen" from.

Aladdin- Stealing to survive is incredibly miniscule evil, depriving yourself (admittedly of stuff he stole in the first place) to help the needy is a sign of his being comfortably Good overall.

So if you steal from a thief or corrupt politician, it's not evil? But theft is always evil?

I'm having trouble seeing the consistency. To me, it seems like theft is "usually" evil. Nobody labels Haley as evil, but she's definitely done her fair share of stealing - which if it was always evil, would probably be more than enough to label her as evil or in the very least, neutral.

That's why stealing being always evil doesn't seem to be quite right to me.

[Optimystik]

The morality of theft depends on both who you're stealing from, and why. Robin Hood is the quintessential example of good theft because he never robs the poor, and never keeps the proceeds for himself.

[Llama231]

Uuuggghhh...:smallyuk:
The BoVD has problems.

[SirEdward]

There are no few gaming circles that disallow Exalted Deeds and Vile Darkness. I, myself consider them to be non-canon in any campaigns, to put it nicely.

Theft is though not always evil, is considered evil as a default. There are circumstances that must be taken into account.

For instance, are the stolen goods rightful property? (Prince John/Sheriff of Nottingham)
Would the stolen goods be used by the owner for an act of evil? (Usurpation of the Crown)
Is the thief in moral need of those goods? (Bread for the starving)

I'm sure there are others, but I'm somewhat distracted. Suffice to say, in the end, it's a DM judgment call.

[Querzis]

I dont see the problem with that. See the definition of theft:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theft

Theft is: «the act of stealing ; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it »

Stealing can be good but I dont see how theft, which is when you steal with no other intent then depriving the rightful owner from it, can be good. Even if you do it to evil people. For more information:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theft

«Note: To constitute theft there must be a taking without the owner's consent, and it must be unlawful or felonious; every part of the property stolen must be removed, however slightly, from its former position; and it must be, at least momentarily, in the complete possession of the thief. See Larceny, and the Note under Robbery. »

You know there is a reason why there is the word theft and there is the word steal, they are really two different words. Theft is a subset of stealing which must be done with felonious intent. And I'm french so I really shoudnt be doing the english lessons here.

[amuletts]

Thieving should be considered Chaotic (i.e. opposite to lawful). Good and Evil rather depend on the motivations for doing it.

[Optimystik]

Anyone have the exact quote from the BoVD concerning theft and evil? Does it provide any reasons why theft would always be considered an evil act?

[JonestheSpy]

Actually, if you go back and read the old ballads and tales from before the story got codified into the version that's in all the movies, Robin Hood kept a fair amount of money for himself - not unlike Haley's father's "AFTER reasonable expenses" clause. Being a discriminating thief, Robin didn't steal his men's clothes, ale, etc, - he paid for them with what he took from the rich.

Also, and bolstering the "He was Chatoic Good, dammit!" argument, he stole from plenty of folks who weren't embezzling tax revenues for their own Swiss bank account or what have you. The point was that the whole system was corrupt, screwing over the commoners for the sake of those at the top. It should be noted, though, that he also helped bankrupt knights and minor nobles, if he liked them - his true ire was for the corrput clergy. There might be poor wandering knoights, but never ever a hungry bishop.

All that being said, the morality of theft is dependant on context, like prettty much all actions. Hey, most regular folks would regard killing as a far worse crime than stealing, but good adventurers go around killing sentient beings all the time. Of course Redcloak might have something to say about that...

[Myou]

THEFT - paraphrased to avoid rule breaking because I just saw that we're not allowed to post non-SRD content.

"Normal people see that stealing is wrong. Villains often don't. Fear of being caught is the normal deterrent for a villain, but they may also be scared to steal from certain people for fear of other reprisals."

[[TS] Shadow]

In the strip, the characters are usually shown stealing the loot from monsters they have already killed. In cases where they aren't (ex. Grubwiggler) the money that they stole would have been used on things that are evil, and by commiting the evil act of stealing, they are preventing an even greater evil. A kind of "ends justify the means" thing.

However, if Haley or anyone else were to just steal stuff from an innocent person, it would most likely be considered an evil act.

[Warren Dew]

Also, and bolstering the "He was Chatoic Good, dammit!" argument, he stole from plenty of folks who weren't embezzling tax revenues for their own Swiss bank account or what have you.

It's also to be noted that he's often assumed to be good because the story is told from his point of view; it's a less extreme version of "Belkar is good because he's a protagonist".

[Zeitgeist]

However, if Haley or anyone else were to just steal stuff from an innocent person, it would most likely be considered an evil act.

Glad you said most likely, because immediately I thought of (cliche) a hero stealing an innocents car to chase the evil criminal dude.

[Optimystik]

THEFT - paraphrased to avoid rule breaking because I just saw that we're not allowed to post non-SRD content.

"Normal people see that stealing is wrong. Villains often don't. Fear of being caught is the normal deterrent for a villain, but they may also be scared to steal from certain people for fear of other reprisals."

I was able to read the real quote before your edit, and it confirmed my suspicions - nowhere in that statement did it say that good people NEVER steal, it only says that villains have no compunctions about it. In other words, theft is an act typically performed by evil people, but being evil is not a requirement in order to steal.

The examples provided, of the drow that pays the rogue etc., are all assuming that the person is evil before the actual theft, not as a result thereof.


Actually, if you go back and read the old ballads and tales from before the story got codified into the version that's in all the movies, Robin Hood kept a fair amount of money for himself - not unlike Haley's father's "AFTER reasonable expenses" clause. Being a discriminating thief, Robin didn't steal his men's clothes, ale, etc, - he paid for them with what he took from the rich.

How he was introduced in antiquity really isn't relevant - his alignment is based on the modern, Disney-fied version of his character. It's the same reason that discussions of Aladdin's alignment don't typically reference 1001 Nights.

[King of Nowhere]

1 Being written in a book don't make anything any more right or wrong.

2 No simple action can be good or evil per se, egardless of circumstances

That said, I associate with the general tought: stealing is chaotic, and generally evil, yet there are circumstances in which stealing can be good or neutral

[Connor Darkdart]

I believe, that in Haley's situation it is difficult to distinguish. She is getting gold to release her father. Which could be considered good, but then again, her father was a 1st Edition Thief, e.g. a person who stole for Greed. So is releasing him a good act because he is her father or an evil one because he is a thief?

I agree stealing should be on terms of Lawful/Chaotic instead of good/evil.

[hamishspence]

they wrote the books to give players a straight answer- will this act cause a Fall- yes or no?

it probably ranks really really minisculy evil when its to save lives- other people's lives, no less, and the overall tendency toward Good of that character's acts would overwhelm it.

Champions of Ruin, which expands on BoVD material, stresses that good characters can commit evil acts and remain good, its just commiting evil (even minor evil) on a regular basis that marks the slide into evil- to an evil character (though they might believe themselves to be aiding the cause of Good) Evil type methods are standard operating procedure.

Fiendish Codex 2 calls out a specific kind of theft as Corrupt- theft from the "needy" for personal gain.

Note that minor corrupt acts probably wouldn't change a person's alignment, even if they might change the afterlife destination if there are enough of them not atoned for.

[Forealms]

Theft is: «the act of stealing ; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it »

Stealing can be good but I dont see how theft, which is when you steal with no other intent then depriving the rightful owner from it, can be good. Even if you do it to evil people.

So stealing and theft are two different things? :smallconfused:

It's this kind of confusion that always leads me to either playing a paladin trying to ascend to god-dom (By leveling, I mean), or a barbarian intent on mass murdering the next group of people to look at me funny. At least I know where I stand the whole time.

[hamishspence]

seems a bit odd definition- very few people will Steal with the sole purpose of ensuring the Other Person does't have the item:

a burglar steals, not to have the items, but so he can sell the items to make money.

Aladdin steals food, not specifically to deprive the shoppkeepers, but to feed himself.

a Heroic Thief might steal the rightful property of the villain- because the item in question makes the villain too dangerous to handle, and removal of it enables other heroes to take the villain down.

No matter the motive, an act of stealing will attract a Theft charge if the authorities catch the thief.

[Optimystik]

Champions of Ruin, which expands on BoVD material, stresses that good characters can commit evil acts and remain good, its just commiting evil (even minor evil) on a regular basis that marks the slide into evil- to an evil character (though they might believe themselves to be aiding the cause of Good) Evil type methods are standard operating procedure.

So Haley DOES have some wiggle room. That's all I needed to know.
So much for Celia's self-righteousness!


Note that minor corrupt acts probably wouldn't change a person's alignment, even if they might change the afterlife destination if there are enough of them not atoned for.

I agree, this seems to be specifically what happened to Roy. He had committed enough unlawful and morally dubious acts that his alignment could actually have changed, but it was his efforts to stay true to that alignment that canceled those actions out. Haley can probably expect a similar review concerning theft from her teammates.

[hamishspence]

yes- the acts themselves, while evil, would be called "theft from the non-needy, not primarily for personal gain" by DM using FC2, rather than "theft from the needy for personal gain."

The FC2 Corruption rating system is more for Lawful characters to worry about than Chaotic ones, though the Obesiance Rating (for Chaotic characters in danger of being treated as Lawful because of a lot of very Lawful acts) in the same book could be combined with it- the book suggests devils tempt the Chaotic into acting too Lawful, and so they get condemned.

Haley has not done much that could be described as Corrupt or Obesiant. Shooting the guy in the Test of the Mind probably doesn't count as Inflicting Gratuitous Injury, though a particularly severe DM might treat it that way.

(Self defense wouldn't count as Gratuitous Injury)

Still, just because character's thefts have not done much real harm, doesn't mean a overly Lawful Good character will approve, since they have done a little harm.

[Devils_Advocate]

Doesn't this thread belong in the d20 forum, since it's about the alignment of an act in general, and not how it relates to the comic in particular? Anyway...

"Stealing is always Evil, but sometimes killing isn't Evil."

Can we at least all agree that the above is completely stupid? Even if it is or follows from an official rule somewhere?

You could argue that killing is always Evil, of course. But saying that taking others' stuff is inherently bad but taking their lives isn't is utterly dumb.

[Optimystik]

On a somewhat lighter note; since we're discussing evil misappropriation, I think the BoVD needs a whole chapter devoted to Wutai Theft (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WutaiTheft). :smalltongue:

[LurkerInPlayground]

I believe, that in Haley's situation it is difficult to distinguish. She is getting gold to release her father. Which could be considered good, but then again, her father was a 1st Edition Thief, e.g. a person who stole for Greed. So is releasing him a good act because he is her father or an evil one because he is a thief?

I agree stealing should be on terms of Lawful/Chaotic instead of good/evil.
Except that Haley's father was known to be the Robin Hood type in a town dominated by organized crime. 40% after reasonable expenses, so to speak. And if he's anything like Haley, he was concerned with keeping the common people away from harm that might result from internecine wars.

The most objectionable thing I can think of Haley doing is stealing and keeping for herself, loot that the Order of the Stick never technically claimed. Oh yeah, that and she cheated her party of a share of the gold in exchange for "magical" rocks.

[hamishspence]

There are philosophical theories that argue precisely that- that killing can easily be in self defence, but stealing, really can't.

[Rotipher]

So if I have a psycho ex-boyfriend, and I kill him to protect myself, that's better than stealing the gun I'm sure he's planning to use on me? :smalleek:

[Optimystik]

The most objectionable thing I can think of Haley doing is stealing and keeping for herself, loot that the Order of the Stick never technically claimed. Oh yeah, that and she cheated her party of a share of the gold in exchange for "magical" rocks.

She was even totally honest about the rocks. "Five ordinary, valueless grey rocks I found in the throneroom..."; "...just plain old rocks, no value whatsoever..."; "If we all get an equal share AND the five of you each get a rock, you'll clearly have gotten more than I have." All 100% true statements.


There are philosophical theories that argue precisely that- that killing can easily be in self defence, but stealing, really can't.

Killing someone in self-defense still means killing them before they can kill you. Taking something from someone before he can do harm is much the same thing to me.

If you want to get biblical however, they're both commandments; one belief system at least equates both acts.

[Devils_Advocate]

There are philosophical theories that argue precisely that- that killing can easily be in self defence, but stealing, really can't.
As Rotipher and Optimystik point out, it's not hard to imagine stealing in self-defense. A bunch of nasty bad dudes are menacing you and your pals, so you gank one of their guns when they're not looking. Or whatever.

Now, you could say that that isn't stealing. But if you're defining "theft" to be the immoral acquisition of another's property, then you should acknowledge that by saying "Theft is always evil", you're just clarifying your definition of "theft", not making a factual claim. You should also acknowledge that others may use "theft" to mean the illegal acquisition of another's property.

Same deal with "murder" and killing.