V has Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

[JonestheSpy]

Last strip finally explained what's been up with Vaarsuvius - s/he fits the description of PSTD sufferers to a t. Considering that memory, it's not at all surprising. Considering that elves' 'dreams' actually consist of reviewing memories, the whole "flashback" aspect of PTSD would be even worse for them. Check it out:

Specific Symptoms of PTSD:

The person has been exposed to a traumatic event in which the person experienced, witnessed, or was confronted with an event or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others and the person's response involved intense fear, helplessness, or horror.

The traumatic event is persistently reexperienced in one or more of the following ways:

Recurrent and intrusive distressing recollections of the event, including images, thoughts, or perceptions.
Recurrent distressing dreams of the event.
Acting or feeling as if the traumatic event were recurring (includes a sense of reliving the experience, illusions, hallucinations, and dissociative flashback episodes, including those that occur on awakening or when intoxicated).
Intense psychological distress at exposure to internal or external cues that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event
Physiological reactivity on exposure to internal or external cues that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event


The individual also has persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma and numbing of general responsiveness (not present before the trauma), as indicated by 3 or more of the following:

Efforts to avoid thoughts, feelings, or conversations associated with the trauma
Efforts to avoid activities, places, or people that arouse recollections of the trauma
Inability to recall an important aspect of the trauma
Significantly diminished interest or participation in significant activities
Feeling of detachment or estrangement from others
Restricted range of affect (e.g., unable to have loving feelings)
Sense of a foreshortened future (e.g., does not expect to have a career, marriage, children, or a normal life span)

Persistent symptoms of increased arousal (not present before the trauma), as indicated by 2 or more of the following:

Difficulty falling or staying asleep
Irritability or outbursts of anger
Difficulty concentrating
Hypervigilance
Exaggerated startle response

The disturbance, which has lasted for at least a month, causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx32.htm

[Doomcat]

wow O.o i think you hit this right on the mark man, one thing i wonder though is why memories of azure city guards...and not haley?? it seems strange to me >.<

[Lerky]

wow O.o i think you hit this right on the mark man, one thing i wonder though is why memories of azure city guards...and not haley?? it seems strange to me >.<
I think it's because V witnessed the guards slaughtered terribly while they begged V for help, while s/he was unable to give them any.

This explains a lot, for this could also be the reason V has decided not to trance other than giving him/her more time for studies. This also explains why V is trying to become more magically powerful, so that events like those that s/he witnessed can never happen again.

Impressive work:smallamused:

[holywhippet]

I think it might be more like survivor's guilt. Not exactly though, survivor's guilt is when you can't accept the fact that you lived while everyone else died.

V knows why, or at least believe he/she knows why. It was because he/she wasn't strong enough in the arcance arts - and part of that was because of the time wasted fighting a petty war against Belkar. People died, and V is plagued with guilt because of it.

[WarriorTribble]

It's strange and funny how the spell (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Modify_Memory) capable of helping V can only be cast by our resident bard. Though one would think a wizard of V's caliber should be able to make a simliar spell.

[magic9mushroom]

It's strange and funny how the spell (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Modify_Memory) capable of helping V can only be cast by our resident bard. Though one would think a wizard of V's caliber should be able to make a simliar spell.

Or assassins ie Crystal O.o

[Assassin89]

Or assassins ie Crystal O.o

Crystal is not smart enough to use such a spell (int lower than 14), so that is not a good example.

[BRC]

It's probably a combination of the above. V has spent his/her entire life studying the Arcane. Figuring out how to make the laws of physics sit down and shut up. V wields enough power to remake nations and slay dragons. V has worked hard, and reaped the reward of arcane power.

Then, along comes the battle for Azure city where, despite V's great power, he/she failed. Then, He/she see's some soldiers die while begging for help, not just die, but be killed by a group of perfectly mundane Hobgoblins. Things that any adventurer of V's level should scoff at. Instead, V could do nothing but watch as the Azurites were slaughtered, his/her decades of study unable to do anything against the simple effectiveness of a sharp sword and mundane muscle. Imagine, if you will, a firefighter, somebody who has trained their life to be a firefighter, be forced to watch as people burn to death because they don't have the equipment needed to save them. Logically, they should neither blame themselves nor their skills. If they had what they needed they would have used it. But the mind is not completely logical.

So, not ONLY was it traumatic in the way that seeing people die begging for help you cannot give is traumatic, it also triggers something of an existential crisis. What good has V's decades of study done, if they cannot help him/her save some soldiers from hobgoblins. The situation with Haley is the same, his/her magic continues to fail, so the conclusion is obviously that he/she isn't using enough, or the right type of magic. Hence the obsession, V needs to prove to him/herself that his/her arcane power can solve this problem.

[WarriorTribble]

Crystal is not smart enough to use such a spell (int lower than 14), so that is not a good example.Well Elan probably can't cast it either, but the concept is funny.:smallsmile:

Also, it won't surprise me if she can somehow cast it anyways... on herself.

[Assassin89]

Well Elan probably can't cast it either, but the concept is funny.:smallsmile:

Also, it won't surprise me if she can somehow cast it anyways... on herself.

Elan can cast it as Bards use charisma for spells, and Elan has at least 18 charisma.

[Kish]

wow O.o i think you hit this right on the mark man, one thing i wonder though is why memories of azure city guards...and not haley?? it seems strange to me >.<
Vaarsuvius didn't bail on Haley.

[WarriorTribble]

Elan can cast it as Bards use charisma for spells, and Elan has at least 18 charisma.He has the stats, but what are the odds he actually knows the spell? This is a man who can until recently could barely cast illusions, and doesn't even have the obviously useful spells like Neutralize Poison, or Cure xyz wounds.

[bluewind95]

I don't think Elan would know the spell. It would cheapen the situation for Vaarsuvius, really, to take away a plot-affecting trauma like that with one spell. :smalltongue:

That said, I do agree with the OP. V is acting very much like the victim of PTSD. A very interesting thing to note. I'm looking forward to seeing how this will play itself out.

[Optimystik]

What it does not explain, are his reasons for attaining power BEFORE the Azure City battle. Hopefully these will be revealed in greater detail soon.

[Kaytara]

wow O.o i think you hit this right on the mark man, one thing i wonder though is why memories of azure city guards...and not haley?? it seems strange to me >.<

Also, elves are (supposedly) only capable of reliving actual memories. There's no room for fantasy in their dreams, so V can only dream of that which has happened and consciously choosing to abandon Haley was not a decision V made.

It is, though, a decision DURKON made when he suggested that they move on Girard's gate - even though that would mean leaving Haley trapped in enemy territory, being imprisoned and tortured for all they know. I don't blame V for no longer valuing Durkon's opinion.

[David Argall]

Well, it's not particularly wrong. However things like PTSD are routinely way over-diagnosed [which is fine with those doing the diagnosis. They pretty much get paid according to the number of patients.] And are often several hundred multi-sylababble words to say something like "he couldn't take it."

[magic9mushroom]

Crystal is not smart enough to use such a spell (int lower than 14), so that is not a good example.

Same trick as with Belkar casting Cure: Fox's Cunning.

[[TS] Shadow]

I don't think that V gives one hoot about the nameless soliders that died. Sure, he might feel bad that he couldn't save them, but it's his lack of ability that bothers him, not the fact that Azurites died. V only woke up screaming from his dream after the women called his magic "useless." If he was really at all concerned about their survival, he probably would have woken up after the majority of them had died. His search for Haley now is his way out of his current state of "uselessness" in his mind. If he can find Haley, then he can prove that his magic is indeed powerful, and his mistake at the Azure City battle can be redeemed.

[amuletts]

V's magic failed him/her. That's what it's all about.

Perhaps I skipped over it whilst reading the thread, but which spell are you talking about that could help V?

[Lykainon]

What it does not explain, are his reasons for attaining power BEFORE the Azure City battle. Hopefully these will be revealed in greater detail soon.

While it's certainly possible that (s)he had some external motivation for that, I'd say it's rather likely that V simple was the sort of person who believed in gaining power just for the sake of power.

Now, I don't think such an attitude would have anything to do with alignment, while it's probably more common among neutral and evil people, even very good people (not that I think V has ever been very good) could wish to be powerful without other reasons. It's simply a character trait of sorts.

[Fredthefighter]

While it's certainly possible that (s)he had some external motivation for that, I'd say it's rather likely that V simple was the sort of person who believed in gaining power just for the sake of power.

Now, I don't think such an attitude would have anything to do with alignment, while it's probably more common among neutral and evil people, even very good people (not that I think V has ever been very good) could wish to be powerful without other reasons. It's simply a character trait of sorts.

And it is that trait that causes V to be the way (s)he is, V believes that (s)he has failed, which is something that V can't stand. Thus leading to him reviewing the memory of his/her failure and his/her attitude on the boat, as V felt like (s)he was failing by not being able to locate Haley, which awakened the memory of what happened in Azure city, which turned V into what (s)he is now.

[Andre Fairchilde]

Last strip finally explained what's been up with Vaarsuvius - s/he fits the description of PSTD sufferers to a t.

...The disturbance, which has lasted for at least a month, causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx32.htm

I completely agree. Valid points, well researched and I believe true.

[Zeful]

V's magic failed him/her. That's what it's all about.

Perhaps I skipped over it whilst reading the thread, but which spell are you talking about that could help V?

Modify memory, a spell that can erase, replace or change the memories of the recipient.

[Kaytara]

Shadow;5667365']I don't think that V gives one hoot about the nameless soliders that died. Sure, he might feel bad that he couldn't save them, but it's his lack of ability that bothers him, not the fact that Azurites died. V only woke up screaming from his dream after the women called his magic "useless." If he was really at all concerned about their survival, he probably would have woken up after the majority of them had died. His search for Haley now is his way out of his current state of "uselessness" in his mind. If he can find Haley, then he can prove that his magic is indeed powerful, and his mistake at the Azure City battle can be redeemed.

Vaarsuvius bolted awake after that last soldier died, not immediately after the remark. I suppose on could argue that the dying part makes the memory complete even if it's not the part that's relevant to Vaarsuvius, but it would have been easy to have him wake up after the remark without losing drama value.

Besides, you say that if Vaarsuvius cared about their survival, he would have woken up after the majority of them died, i.e. before the remark. However, if his dream didn't show the part that came later, that would imply that V does not care about the remark and being called helpless, which is obviously not true. So it couldn't have been done that way.

Another thing. It is NOT the first time V's spells have failed. He failed to defeat Leeky Windstaff with his spells, he had to resort to a contrived loophole to get rid of Zz'dtri, he couldn't prevent the Order from getting captured by bandits, he utterly failed to be effective in both battles against Miko. He was also helpless against the deathknight, and while he does complain about it afterwards, it's not the part that haunts him either. The part that does? It's where redshirts get killed as the result of his failure.
Based on that, I'd say that people dying is almost certainly a factor of V's distress, one way or another.

But I suppose it can be seen either way.

[[TS] Shadow]

Vaarsuvius bolted awake after that last soldier died, not immediately after the remark. I suppose on could argue that the dying part makes the memory complete even if it's not the part that's relevant to Vaarsuvius, but it would have been easy to have him wake up after the remark without losing drama value.

Besides, you say that if Vaarsuvius cared about their survival, he would have woken up after the majority of them died, i.e. before the remark. However, if his dream didn't show the part that came later, that would imply that V does not care about the remark and being called helpless, which is obviously not true. So it couldn't have been done that way.

Another thing. It is NOT the first time V's spells have failed. He failed to defeat Leeky Windstaff with his spells, he had to resort to a contrived loophole to get rid of Zz'dtri, he couldn't prevent the Order from getting captured by bandits, he utterly failed to be effective in both battles against Miko. He was also helpless against the deathknight, and while he does complain about it afterwards, it's not the part that haunts him either. The part that does? It's where redshirts get killed as the result of his failure.
Based on that, I'd say that people dying is almost certainly a factor of V's distress, one way or another.

But I suppose it can be seen either way.

In the case of Leeky, at least he was able to come up with a way to dystroy his opponent, even if he didn't do it himself. Besides, being bailed out by a friend is better than having to flee like a helpless citizen. Besides, in Leeky's case, he had other spell prepared, so he could defend himself. The Azure City battle wasn't the same. He was set back with Leeky, and defeated at Azure City. Besides, I doubt that's the only group of nameless soliders that V witnessed the death of as he fled Azure City. Watching them die already showed V how useless his magic is: being told to "choke on his useless goddamn magic" brought him down to a new low. He just wants to be brought back to glory, and little remorse is felt for those NPCs.

[Gamiress]

Shadow;5669269']In the case of Leeky, at least he was able to come up with a way to dystroy his opponent, even if he didn't do it himself. Besides, being bailed out by a friend is better than having to flee like a helpless citizen. Besides, in Leeky's case, he had other spell prepared, so he could defend himself. The Azure City battle wasn't the same. He was set back with Leeky, and defeated at Azure City. Besides, I doubt that's the only group of nameless soliders that V witnessed the death of as he fled Azure City. Watching them die already showed V how useless his magic is: being told to "choke on his useless goddamn magic" brought him down to a new low. He just wants to be brought back to glory, and little remorse is felt for those NPCs.

Put yourself in V's position. You already feel guilt for abandoning your post in battle because of your helplessness. As you run away, cursing Jack Vance with every step, you are discovered by a group of comrades in need of help you are unable to give. They are begging you. Their terrified pleas grow louder as their assailants rush forward. You stand by and watch, unable to lift a finger, as they are cut down one by one by creatures you should be able to wipe out with a flick of your wrist. The screams of horror become dying wails, and all you can do is hide. As the last one falls, she curses you with her dying breath.

I think V feels plenty of remorse. Those soldiers depended on him, and he couldn't do anything to help. He was forced to stand and watch as they were cut to pieces. If you want to keep arguing that he feels nothing for them, you're going to spark one hell of an alignment argument.

[[TS] Shadow]

Put yourself in V's position. You already feel guilt for abandoning your post in battle because of your helplessness. As you run away, cursing Jack Vance with every step, you are discovered by a group of comrades in need of help you are unable to give. They are begging you. Their terrified pleas grow louder as their assailants rush forward. You stand by and watch, unable to lift a finger, as they are cut down one by one by creatures you should be able to wipe out with a flick of your wrist. The screams of horror become dying wails, and all you can do is hide. As the last one falls, she curses you with her dying breath.

I think V feels plenty of remorse. Those soldiers depended on him, and he couldn't do anything to help. He was forced to stand and watch as they were cut to pieces. If you want to keep arguing that he feels nothing for them, you're going to spark one hell of an alignment argument.

Would I feel remorse for those soliders? Yeah, I would. But in this case, it's not the deaths of the solider's that bother's V. It's his inablity to be strong enough to help them that bother's V. Sure, he feels bad that those people died, but V has always been a logical person. At the time, he probably didn't care about their deaths. They're NPCs, after all: mindless characters meant to slow down the hoard of bad guys coming after the main characters. The fact that V couldn't save them means he's not strong enough to save them, and that's why he feels bad. It's the same thing with Haley, too. He might want to see Haley again, but being blocked by the Cloister has changed his search for Haley into a quest for V to prove his magical superiority over whatever is blocking his progress.

[brilliantlight]

Shadow;5669959']Would I feel remorse for those soliders? Yeah, I would. But in this case, it's not the deaths of the solider's that bother's V. It's his inablity to be strong enough to help them that bother's V. Sure, he feels bad that those people died, but V has always been a logical person. At the time, he probably didn't care about their deaths. They're NPCs, after all: mindless characters meant to slow down the hoard of bad guys coming after the main characters. The fact that V couldn't save them means he's not strong enough to save them, and that's why he feels bad. It's the same thing with Haley, too. He might want to see Haley again, but being blocked by the Cloister has changed his search for Haley into a quest for V to prove his magical superiority over whatever is blocking his progress.


I disagree strongly. She was haunted by it because she ran out of magic and couldn't save them. She was defeated before but it didn't result in lots of deaths. She feels very guilty about people dying because she ran out of spells.

[TheSummoner]

Because in V's mind, he SHOULD be able to save them. He thinks himself a complete failure because he was unable to do something that he SHOULD be able to do and countless lives were lost because of it. Yes, V is depressed because he failed, that much is obvious. His failure resulted in the fall of a city, separation from his friends, and a complete sense of helplessness, but also being forced to watch innocent soldiers, many of which mere militia... civilians drafted in a time of desperation, cut down pleading for help that he SHOULD'VE been able to give.

V's failed plenty of times in the past, Kaytara gave several fine examples, but never before has it had such an effect on him. His behavior makes it clear that hes not willing to admit to the others that he upset because his failure caused so many lives to be lost, but its fairly obvious to the reader what is going on. Perhaps V is too proud to let the others know he feels regret for the deaths he feels responsible for. He seems to believe he should've been able to do much more than is reasonable... Its destroying him.

[magic9mushroom]

Another thing. It is NOT the first time V's spells have failed. He failed to defeat Leeky Windstaff with his spells, he had to resort to a contrived loophole to get rid of Zz'dtri, he couldn't prevent the Order from getting captured by bandits, he utterly failed to be effective in both battles against Miko. He was also helpless against the deathknight, and while he does complain about it afterwards, it's not the part that haunts him either. The part that does? It's where redshirts get killed as the result of his failure.
Based on that, I'd say that people dying is almost certainly a factor of V's distress, one way or another.

But what do you notice about all those times?

They were, without exception, her being beaten by other casters, or by spell resistance/immunities. That one time is the one time she had to face her utter insignificance when out of spells.

[Assassin89]

I sense an inferiority complex for V. V's problem is with failure in situations, where a more powerful wizard would have succeeded.

[DBear]

I wonder if V's way to "arcane power" is to start putting some skill in mundane weapons. During the Azure City arc, he mentions that he is proficient in bow, but not good at it. If he was, the goblins in his flashback could've been cut down with no problem. We've never even seen V wield a staff, a standard weapon for mages.

[Optimystik]

I wonder if V's way to "arcane power" is to start putting some skill in mundane weapons. During the Azure City arc, he mentions that he is proficient in bow, but not good at it. If he was, the goblins in his flashback could've been cut down with no problem. We've never even seen V wield a staff, a standard weapon for mages.

I doubt it - any time V spent improving a martial skill would be time not spent on his arcane studies, which would be all but anathema to his current state of mind.

Not to mention, learning a weapon would be on some level an acknowledgment that magic can't solve everything... an admission Vaarsuvius seems unwilling to make.

[Kish]

I wonder if V's way to "arcane power" is to start putting some skill in mundane weapons. During the Azure City arc, he mentions that he is proficient in bow, but not good at it. If he was, the goblins in his flashback could've been cut down with no problem.
D&D really doesn't work that way. Sure, Vaarsuvius could take Weapon Focus, or even multiclass into fighter...but either of those would weaken him/her pointlessly, and neither would make him/her more than a joke against a group of hobgoblins without spells.

[brilliantlight]

Agreed,picking a level or two of fighter would be just stupid for V. It wouldn't help much on the rare occasion she runs out of spells and she would lose valuable spell slots to get it.

[David Argall]

They were, without exception, her being beaten by other casters, or by spell resistance/immunities. That one time is the one time she had to face her utter insignificance when out of spells.
On the face of it, that would make them worse stings. He was beaten on the very ground she deemed the most important. She was shown to be an inferior mage. But these apparently don't bother near as much as a case where a few low level NPCs relied on him foolishly and without valid claim. In all these other cases, V's side won, or at least nobody was killed.

Now power is obviously a big motivation for V, but to assume it is the only one just is not warranted by the facts before us. V did care about those NPCs.

[whitelaughter]

It would cheapen the situation for Vaarsuvius, really, to take away a plot-affecting trauma like that with one spell.
I'm not sure V would approve of a solution that wasn't a spell - and an arcane spell would make it even better!

[whitelaughter]

I doubt it - any time V spent improving a martial skill would be time not spent on his arcane studies, which would be all but anathema to his current state of mind.

Not to mention, learning a weapon would be on some level an acknowledgment that magic can't solve everything... an admission Vaarsuvius seems unwilling to make.
Rather than training, V could create/buy a decent magical weapon or two; with a decent longbow, V would be about as useful as a warrior of half hir level. Not earth-shattering, but also not to be sniffed at.

[Kaytara]

But what do you notice about all those times?

They were, without exception, her being beaten by other casters, or by spell resistance/immunities. That one time is the one time she had to face her utter insignificance when out of spells.

It sounds like you're saying "Vaarsuvius isn't bothered by those defeats because it was MAGIC that defeated him, which is okay because it reinforces his belief in the might of magic."

You're forgetting one thing. Vaarsuvius doesn't only have faith in magic. He also has faith in HIS magic, HIS skills. So if it was magic that defeated him, it only means that it was his own skill that failed him rather than magic in general, which, as David said, could actually be worse.

Additionally, if V believes magical power to be absolute, then it should be absolute. No buts, no "as long as the monster doesn't have spell resistance"

The fact that those failures didn't cause V to break down like this suggests that there's something special about this one.

Vaarsuvius himself says that during the battle he "could have saved the lives of countless soldiers" but "did not possess the capacity". If Vaarsuvius didn't care one whit about the soldiers, why would he even mention then? Presumably he would have said something like "could have changed the outcome of the battle" or "could have turned the tide" rather than focussing on the soldiers.

So yes, Vaarsuvius himself says that he regrets not being able to save the soldiers. I suppose one could still argue that V only cared about the being powerful enough to save them part and not actually about their lives, but with this evidence it seems far fetched to suggest that V is a completely sociopathic and doesn't care about people.

[magic9mushroom]

V can deal with being beaten by casters because it just validates her drive to become more and more powerful. She can deal with SR because she acknowledges it as the universe being unfair.

But when she runs out of spells, that's a failing of her class, so she breaks down. It undercuts her belief that magic is the answer to everything. Which appears to have been one of her "core truths" up to that point.

I just can't see V being weepy over the soldiers, given she'd been sliding towards killing everything even before that. Remember she advocated Soul Binding Nale.

[[TS] Shadow]

V can deal with being beaten by casters because it just validates her drive to become more and more powerful. She can deal with SR because she acknowledges it as the universe being unfair.

But when she runs out of spells, that's a failing of her class, so she breaks down. It undercuts her belief that magic is the answer to everything. Which appears to have been one of her "core truths" up to that point.

I just can't see V being weepy over the soldiers, given she'd been sliding towards killing everything even before that. Remember she advocated Soul Binding Nale.

Nale is a bad guy, and so, the situation was different. I agree with everything else though. Whatever sadness V feels about the death of those soliders is tiny compared to the feeling of uselessness he feels right now. He's upset because he couldn't save them, not because they died.

[Underground]

I really have trouble understanding why some people have trouble understanding whats going on with V ?

She had a traumatizing experience. She really wanted to save the guards but she couldnt. Even worse, one of the guards cursed here while dying. She intellectually knows that its not her fault, but that simply doesnt stop the trauma from haunting her.

As doctors know, such events can physically alter the brain. They no longer operate like brains without such a trauma. The whole emotional apparatus in us has then changed and altered and wont stop just because we know its wrong. Feelings are NOT rational. The parts of the brain which implement feelings are older than the intellectual parts. Thats why stuff like phobia arent rational either.




Elan can cast it as Bards use charisma for spells, and Elan has at least 18 charisma. Yes but the spell is spelllevel 4 and Elan has taken a PrC which probably doesnt allow him raising his Bard powers (i.e. song and spellcasting) any more.

Plus, as others have mentioned, Bards have a very small selection of spells, and a very small number of spells per day as well. So its very likely that, even if Elan would have stayed pure class, he wouldnt know how to cast the spell in question.

After all, his spell selection seems to be even more limited than what the rules suggest.




Same trick as with Belkar casting Cure: Fox's Cunning. Err, I strongly doubt Fox Cunning is enough to raise Crystal's Int to 14.

I think she must be somewhere around Int 6. At very best Int 8. For example, she doesnt even know what "nemesis" means. A simple +4 to Int wont be enough there, in my understanding.

[ocdscale]

V can deal with being beaten by casters because it just validates her drive to become more and more powerful. She can deal with SR because she acknowledges it as the universe being unfair.

But when she runs out of spells, that's a failing of her class, so she breaks down. It undercuts her belief that magic is the answer to everything. Which appears to have been one of her "core truths" up to that point.


Your explanations appear to be contradictory.
Magic can't be the answer to everything if you also claim that SR is accepted as the universe being unfair. Why doesn't she break down then, when she encounters SR and realizes that magic isn't the answer to everything?
If V accepts the existence of SR, why doesn't V also just accept that limited spell slots is the Universe being unfair again? The Universe trying to level the playing field between those who can bend the laws of reality and those who can't.
Edit: I was browsing some older comics after reading the translation thread and came across this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html where V ran out of spells for the day and was completely unfazed.

Too many if/ands/buts. V is suffering because he was forced to stand helplessly by while a bunch of trivially weak hobgoblins cut down allied soldiers.

[[TS] Shadow]

I really have trouble understanding why some people have trouble understanding whats going on with V ?

She had a traumatizing experience. She really wanted to save the guards but she couldnt. Even worse, one of the guards cursed here while dying. She intellectually knows that its not her fault, but that simply doesnt stop the trauma from haunting her.

As doctors know, such events can physically alter the brain. They no longer operate like brains without such a trauma. The whole emotional apparatus in us has then changed and altered and wont stop just because we know its wrong. Feelings are NOT rational. The parts of the brain which implement feelings are older than the intellectual parts. Thats why stuff like phobia arent rational either.

What do YOU think would be more traumatic? 6 soilders being killed while they curse you, or about 50 soliders being trampled by about a thousand hobgoblins, who knew that you were there, but useless? V doesn't recall (or more likely doesn't care) about that event because they didn't spit in the face of his all powerful magic. Deducing that you're useless is one thing: being told to choke on the one thing that you've dedicated your entire life to is another.

But seriously, all of the argueing about this is pointless right now. We will only know the true nature of V's concience after a few more strips pass.

[Kish]

Your explanations appear to be contradictory.
Magic can't be the answer to everything if you also claim that SR is accepted as the universe being unfair. Why doesn't she break down then, when she encounters SR and realizes that magic isn't the answer to everything?
Remember, Vaarsuvius knows s/he lives in a universe based on D&D rules. Spell resistance could be viewed as an implicit concession to his/her position that magic is the ultimate power--"This monster, which could mince a fighter, won't be dangerous to an entire party unless we arbitrarily give it some resistance to magic!" Also, and perhaps more importantly to Vaarsuvius, spell resistance was a quality of the death knight while being out of spells was a quality of Vaarsuvius.

[King of Nowhere]

Unless it's a minor form of houseruling (you never used a weapon, you sucks with them and that's it), V has still +6 base attack bonus, allowing hir to make two attacks with a longbow or a staff. So, he should have been able to take down a dozen hobbos even without magic.



What do YOU think would be more traumatic? 6 soilders being killed while they curse you, or about 50 soliders being trampled by about a thousand hobgoblins, who knew that you were there, but useless? V doesn't recall (or more likely doesn't care) about that event because they didn't spit in the face of his all powerful magic. Deducing that you're useless is one thing: being told to choke on the one thing that you've dedicated your entire life to is another.

Actually V wasn't there when those 50 soldiers where trampled. He didn't whatch them die while witnessing helpless. So the 6 soldiers could actually cause a trauma, while the 50 could not. And why not to think that in hir dream, V also saw those 50 and we saw only the last part of the dream?
Even the death knight spit in the facce of all hir powerful magic, but that didn't cause a trauma in V.


I just can't see V being weepy over the soldiers, given she'd been sliding towards killing everything even before that. Remember she advocated Soul Binding Nale.
What's wrong in Soul binging Nale? He totally deserves it, and the world will be a much safer place. Heck, the "good" action of sparing his life brought directly to the death of 200+ people in Cliffport, therefore I say that NOT taking all the precautions to make sure he isn't unleashed on the world again (including Soul Bind) is a very evil act.
I'm not blaming the order for sending him in Azure City's prison because they couldn't have predeicted his evasion, but deducing evilness in someone because he or she or it is willing to soul bind Nale don't hold.

[[TS] Shadow]

Actually V wasn't there when those 50 soldiers where trampled. He didn't whatch them die while witnessing helpless. So the 6 soldiers could actually cause a trauma, while the 50 could not. And why not to think that in hir dream, V also saw those 50 and we saw only the last part of the dream?
Even the death knight spit in the facce of all hir powerful magic, but that didn't cause a trauma in V.

V turned invisabile, but there's no way he couldn't tell that many hobgoblins were coming, and that the people defending were dead. It's common sense. Also, his "victory" over the death knight bothered him as well, and likely contributed to his current position. See comic 504.

[Optimystik]

Remember, Vaarsuvius knows s/he lives in a universe based on D&D rules. Spell resistance could be viewed as an implicit concession to his/her position that magic is the ultimate power--"This monster, which could mince a fighter, won't be dangerous to an entire party unless we arbitrarily give it some resistance to magic!" Also, and perhaps more importantly to Vaarsuvius, spell resistance was a quality of the death knight while being out of spells was a quality of Vaarsuvius.

Hit the nail on the head, Kish. Even V's comment about the universe forcing arbitrary equality "between those of us who can shape matter with our thoughts and those who cannot" (#437) indicates his inherent belief in the magic user's superiority over other classes.


Too many if/ands/buts. V is suffering because he was forced to stand helplessly by while a bunch of trivially weak hobgoblins cut down allied soldiers.

V also stood helplessly during the Death Knight's charge, when it decapitated his buffed soldiers. But he at least had spells left at that point. Running out of spells is an important part of his feelings of inferiority.

[David Argall]

Shadow;5673640']What do YOU think would be more traumatic? 6 soilders being killed while they curse you, or about 50 soliders being trampled by about a thousand hobgoblins,
There are at least 2 common [if not especially logical] reasons for the 6 being more traumatic than the 60, or 600. There is the saying that one death is a tragedy, while one million is a statistic. We somehow deem the one more real and are affected more by that death than by the larger number. Somewhat similar is that V, even at full power, could not have stopped that entire army. There were just too many attackers. But the number of hobgoblins in the current strip is almost trivial. If V had just one spell left, not even one of his better spells, he could have saved them. Just a tiny increase in power... This can inspire a lot more guilt than failing to move mountains.



I just can't see V being weepy over the soldiers, given she'd been sliding towards killing everything even before that. Remember she advocated Soul Binding Nale.
Nale was an enemy, and seemed to need such tactics to restrain. Nothing inconsistent here with wanting to help the soldiers.

V's behavior makes sense the more we assume he cared about those soldiers. We don't have to assume any great amount of eagerness to help, but we get a more likely picture if we assume V wants power, and to help people.

[magic9mushroom]

Actually V wasn't there when those 50 soldiers where trampled. He didn't whatch them die while witnessing helpless. So the 6 soldiers could actually cause a trauma, while the 50 could not. And why not to think that in hir dream, V also saw those 50 and we saw only the last part of the dream?
Even the death knight spit in the facce of all hir powerful magic, but that didn't cause a trauma in V.

The death knight and its DEM getting rid of did hurt V. It's entirely plausible that if the DK hadn't been crushed she would be having nightmares about it instead.


What's wrong in Soul binging Nale? He totally deserves it, and the world will be a much safer place. Heck, the "good" action of sparing his life brought directly to the death of 200+ people in Cliffport, therefore I say that NOT taking all the precautions to make sure he isn't unleashed on the world again (including Soul Bind) is a very evil act.
I'm not blaming the order for sending him in Azure City's prison because they couldn't have predeicted his evasion, but deducing evilness in someone because he or she or it is willing to soul bind Nale don't hold.

What's Evil about Soul Binding Nale? The fact that you're condemning him to eternal torture. That's what. Noone deserves that, and the constitutions of most nations today specifically prohibit torture because of that.

Also, here's what Vaarsuvius says. The bold bits are what I consider telling.

"Excuse me! Excuse me for one moment!

While I would normally be outright gleeful at the prospect of an intellectual discussion without the halfling's proverbial two copper pieces, I feel that perhaps his unique viewpoint might actually be relevant to this question. Namely, would it not just be wiser to execute all three of them and be done with it?"

"And what, exactly, would the problem with that be?

I did SAY that I was representing the halfling's viewpoint in this."

"I see. So we have no options that will not result in near-immediate freedom for a trio of enemies that has proven willing to devote enormous amounts of time and energy toward engineering a victory over us, personally? Adding once again to the ever-growing roster of forces out there harboring vaguely-defined plans that involve our deaths?

Maybe we could get a few of our recurring villains to fight each other, to thin the herd? I would pay a handsome sum to see the Linear Guild and that paladin battle it out for our amusement. Perhaps in some manner of gladiatorial arena..."

The first demonstrates non-lawful, but not necessarily evil. The second is telling, she doesn't dispute that it's evil, she just doesn't care. The third... well, it speaks for itself.

[[TS] Shadow]

There are at least 2 common [if not especially logical] reasons for the 6 being more traumatic than the 60, or 600. There is the saying that one death is a tragedy, while one million is a statistic. We somehow deem the one more real and are affected more by that death than by the larger number. Somewhat similar is that V, even at full power, could not have stopped that entire army. There were just too many attackers. But the number of hobgoblins in the current strip is almost trivial. If V had just one spell left, not even one of his better spells, he could have saved them. Just a tiny increase in power... This can inspire a lot more guilt than failing to move mountains.

I agree with you about the hobgoblin troop size thing. Even if V had took a bow, like that guy said, he probably could have defeated those hobgoblins. (V's arrogance is to blame here, but that's a different arguement.) However, I don't think people would regard the Holocaust as a tragedy if 6 people died as opposed to 6 million.

[Optimystik]

Shadow;5676396']I agree with you about the hobgoblin troop size thing. Even if V had took a bow, like that guy said, he probably could have defeated those hobgoblins. (V's arrogance is to blame here, but that's a different arguement.) However, I don't think people would regard the Holocaust as a tragedy if 6 people died as opposed to 6 million.

Without getting too much into the nature of the Holocaust as that's probably a no-no topic for these boards, you're forgetting one thing. Yes, the H-caust was a tragedy, no question. But no one person feels responsible for being unable to prevent it, either, because the scale was just too large.

In other words, V is going to feel much more personal guilt for 6 soldiers than 60. Ask yourself which would haunt you more: jumping out of a plummeting plane and leaving the other 50+ passengers to die, or grabbing the last parachute away from a family of 4 before that same jump? You'd feel sorry about the larger loss, but personally responsible for the smaller - and it's their accusing faces that would appear in your dreams.

[[TS] Shadow]

Without getting too much into the nature of the Holocaust as that's probably a no-no topic for these boards, you're forgetting one thing. Yes, the H-caust was a tragedy, no question. But no one person feels responsible for being unable to prevent it, either, because the scale was just too large.

In other words, V is going to feel much more personal guilt for 6 soldiers than 60. Ask yourself which would haunt you more: jumping out of a plummeting plane and leaving the other 50+ passengers to die, or grabbing the last parachute away from a family of 4 before that same jump? You'd feel sorry about the larger loss, but personally responsible for the smaller - and it's their accusing faces that would appear in your dreams.

Is it against the rules of the forum? Sorry if it is.

The point that I'm trying to make is that V is remembering this specific attack because the soliders cursed V's almighty magic. I find it unlikely that those soliders were the only ones V saw die as he fled toward the ship. Wouldn't those be traumatic too? If he really cared about the solider's lives as opposed to his magical prowess, I'd assume that multiple images of several different groups of soliders being killed would be more likely as a dream that one group who cursed him.

[Kaytara]

Remember, Vaarsuvius knows s/he lives in a universe based on D&D rules. Spell resistance could be viewed as an implicit concession to his/her position that magic is the ultimate power--"This monster, which could mince a fighter, won't be dangerous to an entire party unless we arbitrarily give it some resistance to magic!" Also, and perhaps more importantly to Vaarsuvius, spell resistance was a quality of the death knight while being out of spells was a quality of Vaarsuvius.

But this doesn't address the point ocdscale made earlier. Namely, if Vaarsuvius could rationalize SR as being a ridiculous arbitrary gesture specifically designed to "sabotage" wizards in their awesomeness, then there's really no reason he couldn't consider limited spell slots to be the same. "The mage has awesome powers but limited use of them otherwise he would pwn the world" is certainly also an implicit admission of the superiority of spellcasters.

Also, Vaarsuvius has run out of spells before without signs of distress, so it's certainly not the possibility of running out of spells itself that is bothering him. As David said, any explanation for this becomes a lot more simple, elegant and less convoluted if we assume that Vaarsuvius actually cares to some decree about those soldiers, enough to be traumatized when his failure causes their deaths rather than just creates some new hoops for the party.

Whether Vaarsuvius cares about living beings in general (other than trees, that is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html)) or 'only' feels that he of all people should be able to save those living beings rather than let them die, now that is anyone's guess.


Shadow;5678009']
The point that I'm trying to make is that V is remembering this specific attack because the soliders cursed V's almighty magic. I find it unlikely that those soliders were the only ones V saw die as he fled toward the ship. Wouldn't those be traumatic too? If he really cared about the solider's lives as opposed to his magical prowess, I'd assume that multiple images of several different groups of soliders being killed would be more likely as a dream that one group who cursed him.

While correct, the problem with your reasoning is that it just proves that Vaarsuvius cares about power, which we already know. It doesn't prove that Vaarsuvius ONLY cares about power and doesn't care at ALL about the soldiers.

Let's assume for a moment Vaarsuvius cares about the soldiers and was also traumatised by the deaths of other fleeing groups, as you suggested. The reason this particular scene would still be more memorable is that it touched on TWO of his weak spots (believing himself to be invincible plus not wanting the soldiers to die) as opposed to just ONE of them. So, logically, the woman blaming Vaarsuvius would add to the memory's trauma value, adding insult to injury and making this memory stand out.

[TheSummoner]

V also stood helplessly during the Death Knight's charge, when it decapitated his buffed soldiers. But he at least had spells left at that point. Running out of spells is an important part of his feelings of inferiority.

I think the big difference here is even though V was incredibly disadvantaged, he still stood a chance, however slim it was. There is no way any of the surviving soldiers who may have been watching V and the Death Knight could deny that V was trying to defeat a much more powerful opponent to protect their city. However, as soon as he ran out of spells, V was completly helpless, defenceless, and useless. He did the only smart thing he could possibly do at that point, try to survive. Its not a stretch to say that some of the soldiers who beged V to save them had seen sone of the amazing things he had been able to do earlier in the battle. Its also a fair assumption that few of the soldiers know very much about the limitations of magic. All they knew was they had stumbled upon an amazing, apparently limitless source of power. When their cries for help fell upon deaf ears, the only conclusion they could come to was that V didn't save them because he didn't want to, not because he couldn't.

[Rotipher]

Let's assume for a moment Vaarsuvius cares about the soldiers and was also traumatised by the deaths of other fleeing groups, as you suggested. The reason this particular scene would still be more memorable is that it touched on TWO of his weak spots (believing himself to be invincible plus not wanting the soldiers to die) as opposed to just ONE of them. So, logically, the woman blaming Vaarsuvius would add to the memory's trauma value, adding insult to injury and making this memory stand out.

Plus a fourth reason it would be traumatic: It's possible that if V had simply gotten out of the way, those soldiers could have managed to outrun their hobgoblin pursuers and get to the docks. They'd only stopped running in the first place because one of them bumped into an invisible elf mage.

Had V been a little more level-headed and avoided all bodily contact with them, those fleeing troops might've at least stood a chance of escaping. Likewise, had V dared risk exposing her presence to the hobgoblins, ve might at least have shouted "Keep running!", rather than let them believe V could defend them.

Not only could V be blaming virself for not having the power to help those soldiers, V might be half-convinced that ve put them in danger, by vir own carelessness and cowardice. Quite a blow to the ego, for someone who so prides virself on a cool head.

[Neithan]

I think the problem is that Vs magic should be able to locate Haley or send a message and it always fails. So apparntly V did something wrong and can't rest until the mistake is found. Else, it would mean that V is as powerful a mage as believed, which is completely horrible.

[Lissibith]

I think another thing that might make this particular event stand out (I apologize if it was said before - I have read the thread, but didn't always get the nuance of what the poster was trying to say) is that he didn't just watch people die here. They knew he was there. They knew he was powerful, and they thought he could save them. They asked - they PLEADED for help, even as they were being cut down.

I think it's the difference between knowing people are starving to death out there in the world and having one die at your feet, tugging at your clothing, when you don't have a scrap to offer them.

[Prime32]

To those saying "V could have killed the hobgoblins with a bow"... well, sure. But then his invisibility would short out and V would surely die.

Regardless, I'm sure V is cursing himself for not doing that right now.


Not that "your magic is useless" wouldn't bother him - it just makes him feel even worse when added to the other stuff he's feeling bad about.

[Optimystik]

Shadow;5678009']The point that I'm trying to make is that V is remembering this specific attack because the soliders cursed V's almighty magic. I find it unlikely that those soliders were the only ones V saw die as he fled toward the ship. Wouldn't those be traumatic too?

No, not as traumatic as the ones that had directly asked for his help... help he was unable to provide due to his weakness.


But this doesn't address the point ocdscale made earlier. Namely, if Vaarsuvius could rationalize SR as being a ridiculous arbitrary gesture specifically designed to "sabotage" wizards in their awesomeness, then there's really no reason he couldn't consider limited spell slots to be the same.
...
*snip*
...
Also, Vaarsuvius has run out of spells before without signs of distress, so it's certainly not the possibility of running out of spells itself that is bothering him.

While I certainly agree with you that V does have some measure of care for the lives of the soldiers, Kish's point about the differences between SR and spell slots is a valid one. Spell slots are purely a matter of growth on the wizard's part; as he gets stronger or smarter, he gets more of them. SR is an innate quality of certain creatures and thus beyond the wizard's control, and even breaking through it depends as much on luck as the wizard's skill.

Otherwise, I find your conclusion (the scene being memorable because it touches on two of V's feelings of weakness, rather than just one) to be accurate.


I think the big difference here is even though V was incredibly disadvantaged, he still stood a chance, however slim it was.

Precisely, he stood a chance due to having spells left. You just agreed with me that the death knight situation was very different from the fleeing soldier situation, despite both occasions having dead soldiers. :smallsmile:


I think the problem is that Vs magic should be able to locate Haley or send a message and it always fails. So apparntly V did something wrong and can't rest until the mistake is found. Else, it would mean that V is as powerful a mage as believed, which is completely horrible.

Just being unable to find Haley isn't enough of an explanation for V's obsession. When Durkon asks him why he's spending so much time on that one task, V himself brings up the traumatic events of the battle; he has forged the link in his own mind.

[King of Nowhere]

Don't forget that a stress disorder is something that hit the irrational part of the brain, so it don't have to be 100% rational. V could have gone through similar experience without any effect.
To put it in a gaming context, we may say that being through a bad experience may force you a will save, and V tanked this one. Or in Chtulu fashion, you have a certain number of sanity points, and V lost his lastest in that moment.

[Lunawarrior0]

well, I have 2 things to say here:

1. My 2 copper pieces worth on the debate, the fact that V was so helpless bugs him, but it isn't that he was helpless, it was the fact that many people died because he was just a little too helpless. to make things worse (this memory, rather than any other) one of the ones who died insulted magic. And yes, PTSD explains how V is acting quite well.

2. I saw a few people say that even if V had had a weapon he could have helped, this isn't really true. (This next part will get a bit crunchy, skip ahead a bit if you don't like the numbers.)
If we assume that V is a 12th lvl wizard (saw it speculated somewhere) then that means that he has a +6/+1 BAB. if we are using the base Hobgoblin out of the MM, they have an AC of 15. V is a wizard, low str (say 10) and unenchanted quarter staff, means he needs a 9 followed by a 14 to hit a hobgoblin 2 times (less than 50% chance). Quarterstaves do only d6, while the hobgoblins have 6 hp, this means on average it will take V 2 rounds to kill one. While V has 12d4 hp (assuming 10 con) average of: 30 hp.

The hobos do 1d8+1 (average of 5.5, round down to) 5 damage per hit, 6 hits to take her out. Since V has no armor (arcane spell failure) and probably a low Dex (wizard, for ease of calculations lets call Dex 14) the hobgoblins need a total of 12 to hit him, they get a +2, they need a 10 to do 5 damage. 50% chance.

So, first round: four hobgoblins hit V (no flanking somehow) 2 connect, 10 damage. V hits one, damage's it.
Round 2, FIGHT: four hobgoblins hit V, 2 connect, 10 damage, he is down to 10 HP. V hits both hits, drops one hobgoblin, does damage to another.
Round 3: 3 hobgoblin hit V, 1 connects, 5 damage, he is down to 5 HP. V hits once, dropping hobgoblin number 2.
Round 4: 2 hobgoblins swing at V, 1 connects, 5 damage, V is a 0.

Crunchy stuff over (I need to learn how to do the spoiler box)
This means even with only the 4 seen in the comic, that with a normal quarter staff V would probably lose, unless he is really lucky. with the number of soldiers that were running,I would say we only saw a small fraction of the hobgoblins there, so tweaking the numbers a bit won't help V. Besides, even if he somehow won, he is now visible (notice it was invisibility, not greater invisibility that was cast), and has no more invisibility spells. so he has to find a safe spot fast. So in short even if V had had a Quarterstaff, it wouldn't have done much. V probably can figure this out (they know the rules of the world, and he has a high int) so that might make the soldiers dying even worse.

[Optimystik]

2. I saw a few people say that even if V had had a weapon he could have helped, this isn't really true. (This next part will get a bit crunchy, skip ahead a bit if you don't like the numbers.)
If we assume that V is a 12th lvl wizard (saw it speculated somewhere) then that means that he has a +6/+1 BAB. if we are using the base Hobgoblin out of the MM, they have an AC of 15. V is a wizard, low str (say 10) and unenchanted quarter staff, means he needs a 9 followed by a 14 to hit a hobgoblin 2 times (less than 50% chance).

Three main problems with your analysis:

1) V is at least 13th level, or he couldn't have managed Prismatic Spray. We know he's at least 13 during the battle also, because that's how many soldiers he enlarges. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html)

2) V has less than 10 strength (he mentions his "strength penalty" to Haley while the inn is burning. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html))

3) The weapon he could have picked up to help fight is a longbow, not a quarterstaff. He would subtract his strength penalty from damage, but not from his attack roll. (On account of being an elf, his Dex modifier is likely to be positive, though it's unclear how much.) It's unlikely he'd be very effective even so.

[King of Nowhere]

Actually, it is stated that V has no good dex. 0 or +1, tops. Hir CON is lower than 14, and has a STR penalty. Being 13th level don't change hir BAB (all this from class-level geekery and solid proof).
So it's likely a +7 th hit for 1d8-1. V may have some armor enhancing items putting hir armor in the 15-20 range (he or she or it had been stuck in melee a few times before, and he didn't die, even if he took some hit. So, this is consistent with an AC in that range). With a good place to snipe, V could take down some foes, but not very much.
Also, oots works on a curious mixture of DnD and real world rules. Even if by the rules V is proficient in a longbow, probably in truth he never used one before, or at least he never used one for decades. He never even used a weapon, so maybe the "master" told hir that hir BAB applies only to touch attack with spells, but that he lose that bonus if picking a weapon.

[Kaytara]

Poor V. I keep finding myself surprised by the fact that for the "most powerful member" of the OotS, Vaarsuvius really got screwed over on his stat rolls, low or average in everything except intelligence. While some people like Roy and Haley or even Belkar have it lucky....

[SSGW Priest]

Well, it's not particularly wrong. However things like PTSD are routinely way over-diagnosed [which is fine with those doing the diagnosis. They pretty much get paid according to the number of patients.] And are often several hundred multi-sylababble words to say something like "he couldn't take it."

Fine, call it shell shock, battle fatigue, combat stress or any of the other viable words with fewer syllables. Its too bad Army docs are not paid per patient then maybe Soldiers with PTSD would be fortunate enough to be over diagnosed instead of the current under diagnosed. Too many of my peers are getting ignored.

Saying PTSD = "He couldn't take it." is an insult and part of the problem.

[Gamiress]

Fine, call it shell shock, battle fatigue, combat stress or any of the other viable words with fewer syllables. Its too bad Army docs are not paid per patient then maybe Soldiers with PTSD would be fortunate enough to be over diagnosed instead of the current under diagnosed. Too many of my peers are getting ignored.

Saying PTSD = "He couldn't take it." is an insult and part of the problem.

Quoted for truth. PTSD is a serious psychological condition, and the men coming home from war zones need help and understanding, not to be told to "suck it up" as many of them are. It can last for decades - I used to work for a hospice, one of the residents was a bombardier in WW2. He used to tell me stories about 'over there', but whenever the topic started veering towards times spent closer to the front, he would suddenly look very far away, then make me swear on the lives of my grandfathers that I would never join the army. The look in his eyes was haunting, I couldn't do much but promise.

[JonestheSpy]

Can't help wanting to add a bit to the last two posts. I don't want to veer into that verboten political realm, but saying that psychologists benefit from overdiagnosing PTSD is ridiculous. Someone suffering from the symptoms of PTSD - the nightmares, emotional numbness alternating with fits of rage, etc - has got a serious problem regardless of what you call it. So there's no particular incentive to diagnose a person suffering those symptoms as Post- Traumatic Steress Disorder, as they are going to need psychiatric care no matter what. But there IS an obvious motivation for the oneswho put people in situations that cause PTSD to under-diagnose.

Also, I'm still rather suprised at the number of people who think V doesn't care about suffering and the lives of those around him. Being high-handed and sometimes arrogant doesn't make you a robot. Think of Charles Emerson Winchester III from M*A*S*H - annoying, high-handed, way to confidant of their own abilities to the point of denigrating those of evetyone around him, but in the end still a decent person.

[Kaytara]

Being high-handed and sometimes arrogant doesn't make you a robot.

Quoted for truth. ^^ People seem to be arguing that Vaarsuvius doesn't care about people based solely on the fact that he obviously has other motivations, too. It should be obvious that the two are not mutually exclusive.

[GoC]

Not to mention, learning a weapon would be on some level an acknowledgment that magic can't solve everything... an admission Vaarsuvius seems unwilling to make.

And why should he? In D&D magic can solve everything.