Please, check if this is legal

[Nibelung]

{Scrubbed}

[Trazoi]

Your Javascript doesn't seem to work for me, but I know what you're trying to do.

I'm no IP lawyer, but I've had the basics explained to me by lawyers for my work. And I can't speak for the Giant. But if what you are asking is "Is this a loophole that means I can publish my translation without getting permission from Rich Burlew?", then no, this doesn't work. Rich Burlew owns the copyright to both the art and the words of Order of the Stick. This is absolutely, without a doubt a derivative work of the original. If Rich decided to take you to court over this, you would lose. Furthermore, if you are using any of Rich's trademarks (i.e., the words "Order of the Stick"), he'd have another legal avenue to which to pursue you. So, no dice.

If you mean "will this be okay with Rich Burlew?", then that's a completely different question that I cannot answer in his stead. But it looks to me like you're deliberately trying to ignore his wishes posted in the other thread for some reason, which confuses me a little. :smallconfused:

[Nibelung]

I'm asking for advice, because one of my old readers give me this suggestion. Thats why i put this title. It's exactly what is read on label.

[bluewind95]

I'm not sure, but I think that when Rich said "text only", he didn't mean "use the same squares, same size, same position and everything as the original so as to place the second image over the first and well, since the actual file is not edited, although the end result will look like it, it's not breaking copyright laws". I think he meant, like... a text document. Possibly in script format like:

Elan: I said this in this strip!
Belkar: And I said this other thing.

Of course, only he can really answer, but yeah.

[Trazoi]

I'm asking for advice, because one of my old readers give me this suggestion. Thats why i put this title. It's exactly what is read on label.
Cool. In that case, no, that isn't legal. The only thing I know of is the method Rich outlined: a plain text translation with a link back to the strip. That would be acceptable only because the copyright owner (Rich) has said it is. Anything else will require his permission.

[The Extinguisher]

Actually, I think this is fine.

Someone did something like this for french, and no one said anything wrong.
There isn't a problem with this method, as long as it's again not editing the artwork. If you make your own bubbles and place them, that's fine.

[Nibelung]

Great. Thanks.

[Edit]oops, a divergence. Lets wait then to see what come from others then.

[The Minx]

Perhaps you should simply email the Giant and ask him? He would know better what was a-ok than us humble forumites, after all. :smallsmile:

[Nibelung]

I send an e-mail to him via forum. Let's wait then. I only hope that he don't just see my name and start to think bad about me because of last events.

[Lord_Butters_I]

Damn, that's a nice trick! Also, if I may bring a point up: Nibelung is in Brazil. Do you realize just how much setting up an international court case would cost?

[Zeitgeist]

Actually, I think this is fine.

Someone did something like this for french, and no one said anything wrong.
There isn't a problem with this method, as long as it's again not editing the artwork. If you make your own bubbles and place them, that's fine.

I'm no legal expert, but I'm sure the Giant knows whether it is truly or not, as he's likely done his research, but there is one fact: none of the Giant's artwork has been manipulated. So if there is a way for you to link to giantitp.com and apply the overlay you made, then you may be on to something acceptable. I'm pretty sure you can't repost the comics on your own, so you'd have to do it via links to his original published work.


"Is this a loophole that means I can publish my translation without getting permission from Rich Burlew?", then no, this doesn't work. Rich Burlew owns the copyright to both the art and the words of Order of the Stick.

I'm almost positive that the Giant said that typing up text, translating, and linking to the comics is acceptable, and does not infringe upon anything. This is exactly that, except the words are placed in specific locations, and the linking and the typed up text process are "combined". It's not any different than using a transparency and placing it over the pages of the book. I don't think he's trying to find a "loophole" in the law so much as a legal way he can continue his work without infringing, which is perfectly acceptable. What's important is that the only posting of the artwork is right here at giantitp.com, and that he does not repost or alter any of the comics and host them at his own site.

In the end, though, it is the Giant's decision, and he could probably win at court if he really didn't like it.

[Nibelung]

Again, i'm asking just because if this can be done, it should be better to any reader than fast alt-tab-fu between this site and a plain text translation. If this could be done, then i'll focus my efforts os transparencies and js. If not, then i'll just continue posting plain text, as i did after deleting the edited images from my site (http://oots.com.br/2009/01/18/enquete/).

So, please, take your guns down and don't continue talking like you wish that my head need to be served on a silver plate in CNN.

[LuisDantas]

Again, i'm asking just because if this can be done, it should be better to any reader than fast alt-tab-fu between this site and a plain text translation.

While that is certainly true, I fear that it may also be part of the reason why a plain text translation is preferable. As I understand the matter, it is very important to avoid the illusion of an integrated translation and reinforce the need for visiting the source website.

Then again, it is the Giant's call, certainly not mine.


So, please, take your guns down and don't continue talking like you wish that my head need to be served on a silver plate in CNN.

People got a bit incensed by your decision to keep translating in a way that was specifically forbidden, Nibelung. It's to be expected, come to think of it.

[LuisDantas]

Damn, that's a nice trick! Also, if I may bring a point up: Nibelung is in Brazil. Do you realize just how much setting up an international court case would cost?

Far too much, I'd guess.

Which is an aggravant, however, since that only means that Rich is in a worse-than-average condition of defending his rights. The consequence is that Nibelung should pay that much more respect to his expressed wishes in the matter.

[Trazoi]

I'm sorry if my posts came of as a bit blunt. I'm used to these sorts of questions over at hobbyist game development sites ("Is it okay if I make a fan game of <insert-popular-media-item-here>?", "Answer: only if you have permission, which you are unlikely to get"). I might have switched a bit into the mode I use to answer the questions over there.


I'm almost positive that the Giant said that typing up text, translating, and linking to the comics is acceptable, and does not infringe upon anything. This is exactly that, except the words are placed in specific locations, and the linking and the typed up text process are "combined". It's not any different than using a transparency and placing it over the pages of the book. I don't think he's trying to find a "loophole" in the law so much as a legal way he can continue his work without infringing, which is perfectly acceptable. What's important is that the only posting of the artwork is right here at giantitp.com, and that he does not repost or alter any of the comics and host them at his own site.
Sorry. I got a bit hung up on the "is it legal?" question. The thing is that translations in and of themselves are (if you don't have permission) technically copyright infringement. The only difference here is what Rich has written that he is happy with. If he's fine with text only translations and a link back to the original strip, then that's cool. However I think that this is different from a mere plain text translation, maybe twisting the intent of what Rich said he was okay with.

So I agree with everyone else, you have ask Rich Burlew whether this is okay, because he's the only one who can give you a definitive answer.

[Maxdibe]

Actually you just made a blank image with some balloons in OOTS style, but technically you did not edited the original graphics of the comic (there is no character, only words).

It's like a P2P software: someone made it, but it's not his fault if users use it to make something not legal... (even if is still "legal" to edit someone artwork and keep it for yourself and not uploading it on a site.)

I think that, sooner or later, the Giant will have to consider that SOME translations are well done, and that the "translation project" could return on this website.
But there should be someone (someone not involved in the translation team) making sure that the translations are well made.
I remember the first italian translation I saw: those were not well translated, at all...

So, if we want translations back, we need a good english-other language translator, a good graphic, an effort to translate x comics a week and someone to guarantee the continuoty and genuinity of the work.
Then The Giant can consider to insert the translation in this site as he wants his works to be only in this site.

(why the translation were deleted from this site? because most of them were inaccurate, nobody were checking for the translation to be good, the translator disappeared after 30-50 strips...)

[Edwazah]

Cool!

You did what lawyers do, but for money!
You researched the law (in this case, what the giant said) and you're using the lack of it :)

Now he can say for you: What you're doing is legal, but I don't want it.
And I believe that's the only thing that he can say to you.

Someone said about the squares being in the same position or something like that.... well, he is not using Giant's artwork, as he said.

And also, I believe he's checking with his lawyer to don't say something illegal.


and guys (also the giant) you should check more "anime" stuff.... there's tons of translated mangas in the net, and everywhere they are released, the comics are sold out. Why shouldn't be different with OOTS?
I also bought the book of the origins of the pcs via amazon... the cost was too high but I saved money for a couple of months to do that. If I (I'm not rich) could buy a book (well, I'm saving money to buy the others) for a high cost, why Rich would loose money if he release his book in a future in Brazil (even thinking he will never do this in Brazil, or anywhere else, if he simply don't see this translation a fan thing)

I do follow his strips in English, but I like to see how the strips are being translated...

also, I just expressed my opinion in the topic (and I should did in the other one)... sry about that...

[Connor Darkdart]

Not to sound condescending (e.g. I am going to sound condescending) but just because manga and anime does it, does not mean the Giant should allow his copyright to be lost, and has been said before by the Giant: He payed a large amount for copyright and trademark. So if he just ignores it he loses his trademark and it tells other people that his copyright doesn't matter if they are not in America. This is why compared to the cost of one international court, ignoring it is very costly.

On Topic: I haven't looked at the method but I believe that at the end of the day its up to the Giant. Also I don't see the big fuss about doing text only translations, sure you lose the effects of some of the Visual Gags, but its better than trying to find loopholes in copyright law so you can supply text bubbles hardly seems worth the effort. I followed this case with these translations, and honestly Nigelbung, I wish you would just accept the fact that until the translation program is reopened (if it ever is) you can only do plain text translations. You are wasting your own time by looking for loopholes and the Giants by having him to consult his lawyer and then shoot you down. (Also, yes I am hostile because of two reasons (a) you decided to continue your work after a break to see if you could "convince" Rich to allow you, and your continuous Self Righteous tone (admittedly dimmed in this thread). Yes people will be hostile against you because you directly disobeyed a rule, accept that you did something wrong and try to regain trust.)

Long Post is Long.


EDIT: Also want to point out that Rich could just ask Wordpress to take the site down for copyright infringment and if they refused sue them (And they are American). If Nibelgung hosted it on his own machine/IP then Rich could ask the ISP of Nibelgung to take it down. There is no company that would risk getting sued on those grounds, as it would be a very short case.

Rich's Lawyer: Your Honor, I sample "website with copyright violations" and then giantitp.com, which belongs to Rich Burlew, owner of copyright and trademark of these images. .As you can see the art matches completely and has been manipulated.

Judge: Hmm Indeed. Any opposition from the defense?

Defense Lawyer: Errr... Umm... No.

Judge: I will now declare the verdict. I find the defendant, "Whoever" guilty of copyright infringment, the defendant shall pay a fee of "Whatever Rich wants" and shall have this noted on official record. Court Adjourned.


:smallannoyed:

[Nerd-o-rama]

and guys (also the giant) you should check more "anime" stuff.... there's tons of translated mangas in the net, and everywhere they are released, the comics are sold out. Why shouldn't be different with OOTS?While it is true that I will read fantranslated material that is technically pirated, I always make a point to purchase things I do this to when they are localized to North America; more importantly, all this copyright-infringement is done with the tacit consent of the copyright holders and on the basis that copyright law is much more lax in Japan. The Giant, on the other hand, does not wish his work to be distributed like this, as he has made abundantly clear, usually to this guy.

Nibelung: I give you credit, this may be a legitimate loophole. But still, I swear, would it kill you to just post text translations? We can avoid any legal messes or ill-feeling if you just follow the artist's very clearly expressed wishes, and anyone who doesn't have the attention span to keep two Firefox tabs open and match a script to panels probably doesn't have the attention span to follow this comic anyway.

Hmm...looking at this further, it's still up to the Giant, but I have to admit I wouldn't have a problem with it if it were me. You still have to open and look at the original image, this site is still getting all the traffic, your script just puts an extra layer in the user's browser. It's still way the hell more effort than just a text script, for you and the reader, though.

[Nibelung]

Nibelung: I give you credit, this may be a legitimate loophole. But still, I swear, would it kill you to just post text translations?

No.

And as you can see on the last link i provided on this topic, i already stared doing this. I'm asking because this was a suggestion from a reader. I liked the idea, and just decided ask.

[Edwazah]

Sry guys, I wasn't clear in my post.

I didn't mean "because anime fans do, I will do", my post had the other view:
to show how these things grow and sell.

Me (as a fan) believe it's better to have (even not official) an marketing than nothing.

I also believe Rich could see how his material is affecting other countries who not speak english EVEN with this situation, see how many brazilians are posting in these kind of topics and start to think in have a contract locally regarding this.

It will not be giant as it is in US but it also not be so small as he could think. :)

Or, any of you guys think if we had a translated version of the comic, would we have this discussion? It's clearly saying "hey, there a few people who don't speak english, could we have fun with your stuff too??"

:)

[Connor Darkdart]

The main problem is that any form of translation program requires the translations to be accurate and in some form keep the humour. If someone translates them and removes the funny in the proccess because of language issues, then people will read it and say "Eh, this Order of the Stick isnt that good." and we lose people. Rich may, if he ever gets enough cash, hire proffesional translators to do it, but it would be costly, and from the viewpoint of Rich, is that really worth it for 2 or 3 readers from another language?

[Nibelung]

Just being clear, i'm not asking "Hey, using java is legal?". I'm asking "Hey, do that images with blank baloons is legal?". Javascript is just a browser feature.

[raphfrk]

One potential issue is that you are using his colours for some of your boxes. Maybe, it would be better to have all translated text against a white background and with a different font. This would also show that it isn't part of the original art. In fact, I think that your result is to seamless. There should be some clear indication about what is happening.

Also, you need permission to host someone else's art on your own webpage. This includes having an image on your page that links directly to the other person's server

I assume your plan is to have a web page on your site which links to the image on the official site and then also has the javascript to do the overlay?

If you have a webpage that links to this server, then that isn't allowed without permission and similarly, you can't host someone else's images on your site without permission (especially if it is copyrighted *and* the holder of the copyright has explicitly refused permission).

Even if it was OK, you are effectively creating your own website which mirrors OOTS without permission from the copyright hold.

What you really want is some mechanism so that the user has to go to this official site and your images are somehow automatically overlaid on the images. The only way I can see that working is with some kind of browser add-on.

In any case, it is clearly not legally solid, to say the least. I think if a user's browser does the combination (so the browser has to retrive both the image and the overlay) then it would be more likely to be OK, but even then, you would need to talk to a lawyer.

The main point should be that it shouldn't be used to draw traffic away from the official site to your site. Once it does that, it is profiting (even if only 'fame' for your website) from someone else's work.

Finally, and most importantly, the author is totally hostile to this, so I think maybe you should try this idea on another comic first (ideally with author approval).

If you had a way of making it so that it is completely transparent and the user has to go to the official site of whatever comic, then you are likely to see less hostility.

[Last_resort_33]

Also, you need permission to host someone else's art on your own webpage. This includes having an image on your page that links directly to the other person's server

*snip*

Even if it was OK, you are effectively creating your own website which mirrors OOTS without permission from the copyright hold.


If I were you I would go and read the OP more carefully.

If you could somehow make this a browser add-in, say, a greasemonkey script, then I think that you would likely be ok, but I'm not a lawyer so don't take my word for it.

[Edwazah]

so, where is the art on the bubbles? actually, there is no bubbles, just texts in white background and some color in some of those.
Giant has no copyright on those colors, that I am sure.

And if it's worthless to pay someone to do that, say ok to nib and it will be ok, because he is not earning any of money with the translations.

And for the numbers, Giant know we have a community of about 1800 people who follows the english art and many others (I know about 20) who I sent the first 120 strips in portuguese and found hilarious (even with the notes about the translation) and don't follow the original one because it's in english.... and those 20 I know personally!

I'm not saying this to try to prove Nib's right or wrong. Just giving my idea about the whole idea to make OOTS MORE international :) (and not just in Brazil)

[Zid]

So, hasn´t anyone read the FAQ?


Q: I speak a language other than English. Can I translate the Order of the Stick for my game site?

A: At this time, the translation program is on indefinite hold. Some of the existing translations apparently suffered from accuracy issues, and all suffered from a lack of support from the translator, most of whom faded away after translating only a fraction of the strip's run. Also, there was no promotion or advertisement by the translators in their native language, resulting in a great deal of work for very, very few hits. Please do not contact me regarding translating OOTS into your native language until such time as I decide whether to continue the translation program.

[raphfrk]

If I were you I would go and read the OP more carefully.

If you could somehow make this a browser add-in, say, a greasemonkey script, then I think that you would likely be ok, but I'm not a lawyer so don't take my word for it.

Right, I did say that having the browser do it is better than the user having to go to some completely different webpage. The ideal is a 'button' for firefox that works something like

- you go to a website
- you press 'translate'
- the browser checks a list of translation websites/cache
- if there is a translation available, it overlays the images on the current page
- Also, if there is a 'no-translate.txt' file (or similar) on the web-site, the botton should do nothing. This allows authors to 'opt out'

The add-on should also change none of the links on the page in anyway (like say redirect you to some 'other' site).

This means that you must go to the official page to actually use the add-on and press the translate page button manually.

Again, even doing that, perhaps the add-on would be best tested for comics that are more supportive of the idea.

[LuisDantas]

Or, any of you guys think if we had a translated version of the comic, would we have this discussion? It's clearly saying "hey, there a few people who don't speak english, could we have fun with your stuff too??"

:)

Maybe you are right; maybe Nibelung's efforts are or could easily become advantageous to Rich.

Then again, maybe you are not. Brazil has a serious enough piracy challenge, after all. And social-economical troubles that make it a far less interesting market than it would at first appear to be.

Then again, maybe making any brazilian portuguese translation at all available for free (even in a manner that ensures the due visits to giantitp.com) would (or DID) hurt whatever plans the Giant has for Portuguese / Brazil related products and markets.

Hard to tell. But in any case it is Rich's call to make, and since it directly involves his means of earning a living, it is a very serious matter to him. He will be the one truly affected by the risks taken, not Nibelung, you or me.

That pretty much settles the matter for me. Rich decides what is acceptable, unless something even more authoritative (say, local laws forbidding the translation somehow) apply.

[ericgrau]

Typically simple loopholes aren't. I highly doubt this is allowable. Maybe someone has gotten away with it, etc., but I doubt it's allowable.

Still, best person to ask is Rich.

[Assassin89]

When in doubt, don't do it.

[mikeejimbo]

So, hasn´t anyone read the FAQ?

Dang, there goes the "Translate into Latin" project.

[Edwazah]

Luis, you forgot one thing:

How many piracy "RPG stuff" do you know here?
Even ME! (I stoped to play RPG in 2001!) I have a few original books!
Of couser I have some material from internet, but the piracy on RPG stuff is MUCH less than in... DVD or PS2 games (for example).

Well, I'm not in the RPG world here so I don't know if what I'm telling is true but the class who plays RPG in Brazil is not the poor one so yes, they have money to buy original RPG stuff... :)

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Rich DOES allow translations, as evidenced by the German Translation thread. What Rich doesn't allow is for you to take his strip, post it on your own website, erase his words and put your own in their place...

Now what Nieblung has done seems to be the most brilliant loophole of all time! Rich's strip stays where it is, the words stay on the Nieblung's website, and through the magic of Java, everything "looks" right!

(I've had to to the head-bob between a foriegn language comic and the English translation, and it's a bit of a pain in the neck. Literally.)

Still, it's Rich's call. To me, this seems to stick to the spirit and intent of Rich's desires, but since I'm not Rich, I certianly don't have the final say.

Well, Giant? Kill the seed before it grows?

[badgerigar]

This is quite evidently not legal. The giant has copyright not just on the pictures but also on the words in the speech bubbles. You can't publish those words without his permission, whether you translate them or not. If he gives permission for you to publish a translation in a certain way, it does not at all give you the legal right to publish that translation in another way.

[Edwazah]

translations are not the same words ;)
may be in a different country, but it's not THE SAME words.


and well, 10 days already.... and no answer? Oo'

Maybe the giant is still waiting for his lawyer's answer about it :)

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't do that. And please don't link to it here. If you get The Giant's permission, fine. But until then, this can't be linked here.