Help Me Optimize My Bladesinger?

[ObsidianRose]

Alright, we started the campaign at level 4, and this is what I've got so far:

He's a racist (against monstrous humanoids), offensive, greedy, fickle, but very pragmatic bastard. He's not bloodthirsty, and doesn't mind cutting deals to spare the enemy, but he rarely turns on allies. Chaotic Neutral/Evil (haven't figured it out yet), and wields an Elven Courtblade.

PHB Elf Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3

Str: 3
Dex: 22
Con: 10
Int: 20
Wis: 8
Cha: 10

Feats:
Finesse (free with Swashbuckler)
Improved Initiative
Quick Draw (for grabbing wands)
Shaky Flaw
Combat Reflexes
Elven Pride of Arms Flaw
Hold the Line

Skills:
I have a buttload, but the important ones are UMD, Jump, Hide, Move Silently, Balance, Climb, Tumble, Bluff. Seriously, Rogue levels with 20 intelligence = silly.

So right now, I'm thinking of taking a level of wizard next, getting some bladesinger for intelligence to AC, and just burning my spells for arcane strike when I qualify for it.

I cna probably make minor changes with feats, ability scores, or classes, but nothing too drastic. All books legal, even 3.0 books that aren't too silly.

Any help would be appreciated. I like the idea of a character with a two hander who doesn't swing it, but casually taps it at your vitals, though, so a finesse style will have to stay.

Thanks!

[Draz74]

You may actually be better off going Assassin rather than Wizard! Since half-caster PrCs tend to nerf the Wizard's casting pretty hard anyway. Swashbuckler 3 / Rogue 2 / Assassin 5 / Bladesinger 10 is a pretty great 20-level build, as far as INT-based warriors go. And you're even already considering being evil -- perfect!

[Keld Denar]

Hmmm, the best way to optimize a Bladesinger is to take a few Bladesinger levels as possible. The class is just flawed. 1/2 casting, I don't even care about the 1-2 quickened spells per day, its just a trainwreck. Its supposed to be delicate master of both arcane power and grace, but unfortunately it fails to execute at both. Would you consider playing something more mechanically strong, and then just calling yourself a Bladesinger? I can think of lots of different builds that do much better service than BS. Much.

And I see a problem with the way you are going into it. You like to use the Courtblade. Bladesinger's abilities only work when they wield a 1handed weapon in 1 hand, with their offhand empty. A Courtblade is the elven equivalant of the Greatsword, which definitely isn't a 1handed weapon. I think what you were looking for is either the Thinblade (Longsword) or the Lightblade (Shortsword). They all have the same crit range though.

Hmmmm, if you aren't married to the idea of actually taking levels of Bladesinger, than this should work, giving you the style and mechanics you crave.

1 Elf Paragon1 (Racial Weapon Familiarity-Races of the Wild) (Dodge-flaw)
2 Focused Specialist Transmuter1 banning Evocation, Necromancy, and Enchantment
3 Elf Paragon2 (Weapon Finesse)
4 Elf Paragon3
5 FS Transmuter2
6 FS Transmuter3 (Mobility)
7 Swiftblade1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)
8 Swiftblade2
9 Swiftblade3 (Arcane Strike CArcane)
10 Swiftblade4
11 Swiftblade5
12 Swiftblade6 (Minor Shapeshift CMage)
13 Swiftblade7
14 Swiftblade8
15 Swiftblade9 (Combat Casting)
16 Swiftblade10
17 Abj Champ1
18 Abj Champ2 (Improved Init)
19 Abj Champ3
20 Abj Champ4

Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) is almost exactly what you are looking for. Check out the link above. You move with such grace that time blurs around you. Your actions are quicker than a mans eye can follow, and you can strike your blade into a mans heart before he even knows you are there. This would also allow you to use your Courtblade.

Being a Focused Specialist Transmuter nets you a TON of spells per day, almost as many as a sorcerer, which is good because Swiftblade stunts your casting progression a bit, but unlike most partial casting classes, its actually worth it! You won't miss Necromancy (you are too beautiful for ugly spells of death), or Evocation, (to flashy and direct for your subtle ways), or Enchantment (best way to impress someone is to leave a swordprint in his heart, not try to weasel your way into his mind like a skulking witch).

Check it out. Its a really fun and flavorful class. Elf Paragon is in Unearthed Arcana btw, and is kinda fun. Fits your roguey flavor and gives a stat boost at the end.

Hope this still looks acceptable. Just call yourself a Bladesinger, just like Miko calls herself a Samurai without actually having any levels in any Samurai classes.

Also, Swiftblade Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=859073).

EDIT:

Swashbuckler 3 / Rogue 2 / Assassin 5 / Bladesinger 10 is a pretty great 20-level build, as far as INT-based warriors go. And you're even already considering being evil -- perfect!

Yea, that wouldn't actually be too bad. Since Bladesingers can autoquicken any spell up to 4th level, once and twice a day, depending on level, it would work well with Assassin's only getting 4 levels of spells. Quickened Improved Invis at the start of combat is pretty good.

It also builds off the origional build, so there wouldn't need to be complete ground up rebuilding.

[ObsidianRose]

I think I'm going to err towards the path of assassin, since it means I don't actually need to go back and change anything.

As for the courtblade, I've talked to my DM, and he's cool with me still using bladesinger style with it, since I just like the cosmetics of it, and I'm not using power attack cheese or anything.

Are there any more feats I need to take, besides arcane strike? How about combat expertise, Robilar's gambit, or defensive strike? The way this is going, I should have a fairly ridiculous AC.

Thanks for what you guys have said so far, though.

[Harperfan7]

How much do courtblades weigh? Because I think it will probably put you into a medium or heavy load, which I think ruins a lot of your class abilities.

[Draz74]

I think I'm going to err towards the path of assassin, since it means I don't actually need to go back and change anything.

Oh good. I think this path "covers up" the weaknesses of the Bladesinger PrC rather elegantly, so I'm happy to hear about someone actually using it. :smallsmile:


Are there any more feats I need to take, besides arcane strike? How about combat expertise, Robilar's gambit, or defensive strike? The way this is going, I should have a fairly ridiculous AC.

Darkstalker is always a favorite feat for stealthy characters.

Of the ones you mentioned, Robilar's Gambit would be good, if it's true that your AC really is turning out to be really good (at least your level +20, preferably more).

Craven, if allowed, is a very powerful choice for evil Sneak Attackers.

Tome of Battle-dipping feats can't hurt. E.g. pick up Shadow Jump and Assassin's Stance.

Look into Skill Tricks that allow you to avoid making your spellcasting obvious. Look into items that give a miss chance (e.g. Minor Cloak of Displacement). Look into Truedeath and Demolition weapon crystals, and Collars of Umbral Metamorphosis.

[ObsidianRose]

Defintiely snagging craven, maybe darkstalker, too. I'm not planning on using my spellcasting all that much, but I'll look into skill tricks.

I think I'll retrain improved initiative for craven, and quick draw for combat expertise.

So my next feats will be
6th Improved Feint
9th Martial Stance (Assassin's)
12 Shadow Hand
15th Arcane Strike
18th Robillar's gambit.

Are there any good ways to cheese out my AC? So far, I have mithral chainshirt, 22 dexterity, buckler, and a defending weapon. What's the best way to raise it some more?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Best way to raise AC is to not be hit in the first place. Wand of Mirror Image. It will almost always give you better returns.

If your GM lets you get away with it, you can grab it as an Assassin with a feat (Extra Spell). Most people state that you can only pick up a spell on your class's spell list, but you might get your GM to let you pick this up.

Failing that, Improved Invisibility. Sneak attacks AND not being able to be hit, all rolled into one.

I would suggest a two level dip in Swordsage, if your GM allows ToB material. The first dip is at level 2. Pick up Island of Blades as your stance, then pick up the feat Shadow Blade. You'll have to switch weapons to use it, but it lets you use your Dex for damage calculations instead of Str, meaning you can have Str as a dump stat with Weapon Finesse. The second level in Swordsage cannot be taken until 9, because then you pick up Assassin's Stance and Pouncing Strike (make sure you pick up two tiger claw maneuvers in your first dip). This lets you get a full attack on a charge, and +2d6 sneak attack.

[Draz74]

I would suggest a two level dip in Swordsage, if your GM allows ToB material. The first dip is at level 2. Pick up Island of Blades as your stance, then pick up the feat Shadow Blade. You'll have to switch weapons to use it, but it lets you use your Dex for damage calculations instead of Str, meaning you can have Str as a dump stat with Weapon Finesse.

I was going to suggest this, or something similar, but it seems using an Elven Courtblade is pretty iconic to this character's concept. Especially with that flaw! So Shadow Blade won't help him.


Defintiely snagging craven, maybe darkstalker, too. I'm not planning on using my spellcasting all that much, but I'll look into skill tricks.

Use it! Bladesinger really isn't worth it without spellcasting. Assassins really get a pretty good list, especially if you look through Spell Compendium, and don't forget about Wraithstrike either. And Bladesinger even lets you Quicken spells sometimes without boosting their level. That's their best ability.

Besides, skill tricks are a pretty minimal level of investment or opportunity cost (2 skill points each).

[Temp.]

I played this sort of build a couple years back. You might be interested in the Daring Outlaw feat for an extra 7 damage per hit, if that's your thing. I was TWFing with my spare hand with that build, so you might not get the same benefit.

And you're going to want to do something with that strength score. You won't be able to carry more than 10 pounds of gear without losing most of your class abilities. A Handy Haversack and clothes are going to put you into medium encumberance.

[Keld Denar]

And you're going to want to do something with that strength score. You won't be able to carry more than 10 pounds of gear without losing most of your class abilities. A Handy Haversack and clothes are going to put you into medium encumberance.

Not to mention that you'll last about 6 seconds in an encounter with a shadow, and after 1d4 rounds, you'll get a great tan and a thirst for human life force. All for the low low cost of your body and soul!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not to mention that you'll last about 6 seconds in an encounter with a shadow, and after 1d4 rounds, you'll get a great tan and a thirst for human life force. All for the low low cost of your body and soul!

Hence the Mirror Image and giving it a 1 in 9 chance of actually hitting the right 'you'... assuming the Cleric doesn't Turn it into Oblivion... they don't have a lot of HD for their CR, compared to most undead.

[Draz74]

And you're going to want to do something with that strength score. You won't be able to carry more than 10 pounds of gear without losing most of your class abilities. A Handy Haversack and clothes are going to put you into medium encumberance.

Nitpick: clothes don't actually count towards encumbrance.

Your point is still valid, though.

[Keld Denar]

Hence the Mirror Image and giving it a 1 in 9 chance of actually hitting the right 'you'... assuming the Cleric doesn't Turn it into Oblivion... they don't have a lot of HD for their CR, compared to most undead.

Suprise rounds suck, and do happen, especially with incorps who can just waltz out of the wall and nab your flat footed touch AC.

And Greater Shadows are a fun monster too, do 1d8 str damage, and have enough HD that you could give them Spring Attack, making them tough to turn (need LoE). Not impossible, but tough.

Just sayin, low str like that is a glaring vulnerability, IMO. YMMV.

[ObsidianRose]

Thanks for all the help guys, and I'll definitely look into shoring up my strength weaknesses and finding some fun uses for my spells.

I'm not sure where I'm going to sneak in daring outlaw, though. Maybe I could drop improved feint for it, and hope my friends will help me flank.

[Darrin]

I'm not sure where I'm going to sneak in daring outlaw, though. Maybe I could drop improved feint for it, and hope my friends will help me flank.

The only thing Bladesinger really has going for it is it's a full BAB PrC with +1 caster level on the first level, so elven gishes can dip it for one level without losing BAB or a caster level. However, Spellsword offers the same thing, but is much easier to get into (only BAB +4 and you don't have to take 3-4 worthless feats). The only reason I could see for taking it would be you'd already exhausted Abjurant Champion, Spellsword, and absolutely had to have another +1 BAB/+1 caster level dip. If you're dead-set on Bladesinger, then I'd recommend starting with two levels of Duskblade, since this gives you Combat Casting as a bonus feat.

I like the assassin/daring outlaw suggestion, although if you want to avoid the "must be paid to kill someone" requirement, look up the Avenger PrC on the WotC website. Same class without the "must be evil/kill people" requirement.

I would drop Improved Feint. Feinting is almost always a waste of an action, even if it's only a move action. You can get the same effect by putting ranks into Handle Animal or paying someone else to train an animal for you. Buy a mule and train it to grapple your opponents (Pin trick, DC 15). Or buy a monkey and train it to throw marbles (A&EG, p. 24) into an opponent's square. Either way, it's a move action to order an animal to do a trick but it's better than Improved Feint because they lose their Dex bonus for the entire round to everyone that attacks (and possibly multiple rounds) instead of just one attack by you.

Is Tome of Battle available? There's a lot of Int synergy with Warblade, or if you need more flanking, a dip into SwordSage would get you the Island of Blades stance, where any adjacent ally can count for flanking. The Eternal Blade PrC is also an awesome elven-only PrC: gain your Int bonus to attack/damage against one type of opponent, and the capstone ability lets you act twice in the same round once per encounter.

[Keld Denar]

I agree. Improved Feint is bad. In order to use it, you have to be in a position where you could full attack, but then you don't get to full attack. Unless you are completely solo all the time, you should be able to 5' step into flanking most of the time when you are already that close to an enemy, or but a pair of Anklets of Translocation which allow you to 10' teleport as a swift action, which will probably bring you into flanking with an ally. Anklets can be used twice per day, and have no atunement period. At a cost of only ~1400g, you could easily get 2-3 pairs and trade em out between combats for really good mobility. They also help you get out of grapples.