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View Full Version : [4e] Footwork Lure + Spiked Chain = FUN!



Edge of Dreams
2009-01-19, 02:25 AM
Long roleplaying story spoilered, interesting mechanical discovery below:


So, my heroic tier Dragonborn Fighter, Gelian, made the mistake of stealing a trophy fullblade from a demoness known as the "Queen of Blades". After being resoundingly trounced by her in combat, he escaped with the party, but lost both the trophy blade and his own +2 fullblade in the process. Thus ended a truly epic session, along with the information that we had gained enough roleplaying xp from that failed encounter to hit level 7.

"Oh no," I say to myself, "what am I going to do without a magic weapon? Well, at least martial power is out now, so I have a chance to swap out a power - that'll cheer me up."

And cheer me up it did indeed! I discovered Footwork Lure, a fighter at-will that lets you slide 1 square and place the enemy in the square you left. I determined that I would swap out Cleave for Footwork Lure to add a new tactical option, and keep Reaping Strike as my main damage output standby.

During the week between sessions, I also considered how Gelian would deal with such a devastating loss of both pride and his favorite weapon. It occurred to me that he would actually be encouraged to work even harder, now that he has a worthy opponent to hopefully challenge again someday. He would also find this as a good opportunity to reconsider his fighting style and try something different. So, I talked to the DM, and we eventually came up with this:

Upon returning to town, Gelian heads to the marketplace and looks for a new weapon. The DM and I worked together to create a table for randomly deciding what kind of weapon would catch Gelian's eye - something that can be wielded two-handed, military or superior, and not too much like a fullblade (e.g. no bastard swords). Lo and Behold, the dice decree that Gelian finds himself intrigued by the sight of a spiked chain.

Now, I had never used a spiked chain in 3.5, and my group of friends had always considered it an unrealistic and silly weapon, while still recognizing its usefulness and cheese in the right builds. So, Gelian buys the spiked chain, and pays the party wizard to enchant it as +1 Bloodclaw (the enchantment which lets you harm yourself to increase your damage output). The group jokingly comes to the conclusion that this particular chain has spikes *everywhere*, even where you would hold it, thus the Bloodclaw effect. A few days in game of "practice" with it later, the DM kindly allowed me to swap out my Weapon Proficiency feat without needing to wait until the next level.

It wasn't until our first combat after this, that we truly understood how awesome this whole thing was.



What I noticed, is that Footwork Lure (a fighter at-will that lets you slide 1 square and place the enemy in the square you left) has a range of "Melee Weapon" which means it works with reach weapons. My fighter, Gelian, is using it with a Spiked Chain, which has reach. Our group began to imagine this as Gelian hooking the opponent with the end of the chain and pulling them into place (cue references to Scorpion from Mortal Kombat - "GET OVER HERE"). Combined with the encounter power I just picked up, Come and Get It, Gelian has gone from a normal stand-there-and-hit-things fighter to a master of tactical positioning and control. Being able to pull an opponent two squares AND shift with an at will is just so much fun and such a great image, not to mention pretty powerful. A character I wasn't terribly interested is has now become AWESOME.

Additionally, I think I may take the Polearm Master Paragon Path, because it doesn't actually require you to use polearms, just reach weapons!!!

NecroRebel
2009-01-19, 02:51 AM
Spiked Chains are fun, but they've really got nothing on true polearms when it comes to battlefield control fighters. Martial Power adds several fun feats for polearm Fighters that can let you keep every enemy around you prone all the time. As in, literally every time they move, or use a ranged or area power, or enter a square adjacent to you, they get pushed back and knocked prone, and that's just on their turn!

Anyway, you'd be far better with this tactic if you used a Glaive, Halberd, or Longspear instead, as then you could pick up Polearm Momentum (MP138), which makes it so that whenever you push or slide a target 2 or more squares, they get knocked prone. Then you realize that Footwork Lure slides enemies into the square you vacated, and you can hit targets 2 squares away, and it turns out that you can pull an enemy 2, knock it prone, and shift 1 yourself as an at-will power :smallbiggrin:



I actually built a character using this as the backbone of his build for a level 30 oneshot (that unfortunately has now stopped :smallfrown:), and found that Dwarven Halberier Fighter/Swordmages are the most effective possible tripmonkeys of 4E, to use a 3.5 term. It just turns out that dwarves get a bunch of feats that let them take opportunity attacks on more varied attack types, and, more importantly, lets them push people who provoke OAs if the dwarf is wielding an axe. If you're interested in seeing the build, the character sheet is here. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=94659)

Edge of Dreams
2009-01-19, 03:28 AM
Spiked Chains are fun, but they've really got nothing on true polearms when it comes to battlefield control fighters.

That's a pretty sweet build you've got there, NecroRebel. Unfortunately, I didn't start out optimizing for battlefield control. My initial build was purely a big weapon, big numbers style fighter. It's only now, with all the changes I've made and new stuff I've added this level that I'm starting to see just how good battlefield control can be on a fighter. Maybe in the future, for a oneshot or something, I'll try out an optimized polearm fighter, but for now, I'm content with what I've got being so much better than what I had two sessions ago.

Burley
2009-01-20, 08:37 AM
Spiked Chains are fun, but they've really got nothing on true polearms when it comes to battlefield control fighters. Martial Power adds several fun feats for polearm Fighters that can let you keep every enemy around you prone all the time. As in, literally every time they move, or use a ranged or area power, or enter a square adjacent to you, they get pushed back and knocked prone, and that's just on their turn!

Anyway, you'd be far better with this tactic if you used a Glaive, Halberd, or Longspear instead, as then you could pick up Polearm Momentum (MP138), which makes it so that whenever you push or slide a target 2 or more squares, they get knocked prone. Then you realize that Footwork Lure slides enemies into the square you vacated, and you can hit targets 2 squares away, and it turns out that you can pull an enemy 2, knock it prone, and shift 1 yourself as an at-will power :smallbiggrin:



I actually built a character using this as the backbone of his build for a level 30 oneshot (that unfortunately has now stopped :smallfrown:), and found that Dwarven Halberier Fighter/Swordmages are the most effective possible tripmonkeys of 4E, to use a 3.5 term. It just turns out that dwarves get a bunch of feats that let them take opportunity attacks on more varied attack types, and, more importantly, lets them push people who provoke OAs if the dwarf is wielding an axe. If you're interested in seeing the build, the character sheet is here. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=94659)


What Dwarven feats, specifically are you talking about? I know a dwarf can tank way better than most things, but if I were to make a Spear-trippin' Fighter, I'm wondering why not to be an Eladrin, for the Eladrin Soldier feat.


EDIT: And, then I actually look in the book to realize that a Halberd is an axe. Awesome.
But, what feats should I pick up for my new Dwarven Fighter, anyways, to make him the most effective Trip Monkey. (It's funny that I'm blocked from myth-weavers, cause my old DM helped create the site, and sent me links ALL THE TIME... Useless firewalls.)

Erk
2009-01-20, 11:49 AM
Kudos: this is one of the only times I have seen reasonable fluff for Come and Get It.

Sounds like a very fun character build. Sure, maybe not 100% optimal, but one of the things I love about 4e is that the difference between an optimised and unoptimised character is small... significant enough that optimising is fun, limited enough that building a character based on what one feels like at the time is perfectly fine.

NecroRebel
2009-01-20, 12:31 PM
What Dwarven feats, specifically are you talking about? I know a dwarf can tank way better than most things, but if I were to make a Spear-trippin' Fighter, I'm wondering why not to be an Eladrin, for the Eladrin Soldier feat.


EDIT: And, then I actually look in the book to realize that a Halberd is an axe. Awesome.
But, what feats should I pick up for my new Dwarven Fighter, anyways, to make him the most effective Trip Monkey. (It's funny that I'm blocked from myth-weavers, cause my old DM helped create the site, and sent me links ALL THE TIME... Useless firewalls.)

The REALLY kickass ones don't come out until paragon and epic tiers, but once you get them they... um... really kick ass. :smalltongue:

Specifically, I'm looking at Stonefoot Reprisal (from Martial Power), which grants you an opportuntity attack against anyone who attempts to push, pull, or slide you, available at paragon tier, and the main key to constant knockdowns, Knockback Swing (also Martial Power), which makes it so that, when you are wielding a hammer or axe - which a halberd is - you push enemies 1 square on opportunity attacks, hit or miss.

Combine Knockback Swing with a halberd, Spear Push and/or the Polearm Master's Forceful Reach ability (both of which increase the distance you push with a polearm attack by 1), and Polearm Momentum (a heroic Martial Power feat that makes you knock enemies prone if you push or slide them more than 2 with a polearm attack), and every time an enemy provokes an opportunity attack against an epic-level dwarf fighter they get knocked prone, whether or not the OA hits :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately, the build doesn't really really come into its own until paragon tier when Spear Push is available to make push 1s into push 2s, and it can't usually trip on opportunity attacks until epic tier - though you could do it with a Glaive, Heavy Blade Opportunity, Footwork Lure, and some clever positioning - but it's still capable of knocking prone every single round if it so chooses.



Edit: Oh, and you wouldn't actually want to use a spear regardless of racial choices. You cannot trip on opportunity attacks with a spear. Glaives can manage it, as they count as heavy blades and thus count for Heavy Blade Opportunity, which you can then use with an at-will push or slide power to trigger the knockdown. Halberds work for dwarves in epic tier due to Knockback Swing.

Oddly enough, if you want to use a glaive for battlefield control, you're actually better off being a Warlord with a Fighter multiclass. This is because Warlords have the Opening Shove at-will in Martial Power, which actually lets them push their target, while Fighters are stuck relying on Footwork Lure which can be harder to use effectively due to not triggering if they're adjacent.

If you want to be a spear-wielding tripmonkey, you should probably go regular spear and shield and use Tide of Iron as an at-will knockdown once you get to paragon tier and can pick up Spear Push or Polearm Master.

Burley
2009-01-20, 02:42 PM
Oddly enough, if you want to use a glaive for battlefield control, you're actually better off being a Warlord with a Fighter multiclass. This is because Warlords have the Opening Shove at-will in Martial Power, which actually lets them push their target, while Fighters are stuck relying on Footwork Lure which can be harder to use effectively due to not triggering if they're adjacent.

If you want to be a spear-wielding tripmonkey, you should probably go regular spear and shield and use Tide of Iron as an at-will knockdown once you get to paragon tier and can pick up Spear Push or Polearm Master.

Wait wait wait... you can still use the Footwork lure junk, if just won't trip, right? Why don't you just shift or something?
Or, even if you are, the wording of the Polearm Master's Forceful Reach ability says "...slides a target, you increase the distance of the forced movement by 1 square." So, you should still be able to bring it into your square and then one extra square, right? I guess that's open to interpretation, maybe.

Keld Denar
2009-01-20, 02:58 PM
Another Mortal Kombat moment that I read about over on the Brilliant Gameologists forum.

Adventurers Vault has a weapon enchant called Grasping or Gripping or something like that. It only goes on Spears, and when it hits, allows you to pull the target into a square ajacent to you.

Thing is...nothing about it requires you to wield it in melee.

Well....a Javelin is a spear. Throw the Grasping Javelin at someone like, 10 squares away.

GET OVER HERE!!!

[/MORTAL KOMBAT]

Burley
2009-01-20, 03:20 PM
The REALLY kickass ones don't come out until paragon and epic tiers, but once you get them they... um... really kick ass. :smalltongue:

Specifically, I'm looking at Stonefoot Reprisal (from Martial Power), which grants you an opportuntity attack against anyone who attempts to push, pull, or slide you, available at paragon tier, and the main key to constant knockdowns, Knockback Swing (also Martial Power), which makes it so that, when you are wielding a hammer or axe - which a halberd is - you push enemies 1 square on opportunity attacks, hit or miss.

Combine Knockback Swing with a halberd, Spear Push and/or the Polearm Master's Forceful Reach ability (both of which increase the distance you push with a polearm attack by 1), and Polearm Momentum (a heroic Martial Power feat that makes you knock enemies prone if you push or slide them more than 2 with a polearm attack), and every time an enemy provokes an opportunity attack against an epic-level dwarf fighter they get knocked prone, whether or not the OA hits :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately, the build doesn't really really come into its own until paragon tier when Spear Push is available to make push 1s into push 2s, and it can't usually trip on opportunity attacks until epic tier - though you could do it with a Glaive, Heavy Blade Opportunity, Footwork Lure, and some clever positioning - but it's still capable of knocking prone every single round if it so chooses.



Edit: Oh, and you wouldn't actually want to use a spear regardless of racial choices. You cannot trip on opportunity attacks with a spear. Glaives can manage it, as they count as heavy blades and thus count for Heavy Blade Opportunity, which you can then use with an at-will push or slide power to trigger the knockdown. Halberds work for dwarves in epic tier due to Knockback Swing.

Oddly enough, if you want to use a glaive for battlefield control, you're actually better off being a Warlord with a Fighter multiclass. This is because Warlords have the Opening Shove at-will in Martial Power, which actually lets them push their target, while Fighters are stuck relying on Footwork Lure which can be harder to use effectively due to not triggering if they're adjacent.

If you want to be a spear-wielding tripmonkey, you should probably go regular spear and shield and use Tide of Iron as an at-will knockdown once you get to paragon tier and can pick up Spear Push or Polearm Master.

Doesn't this this build require you to have a 15 in Dex and Wisdom? Considering you should have at least a 16 in strength if you want to hit anything. I don't know if I'm gonna do this, now that I think about it. I don't like to Min-Max and I'll end up with really poor scores in the social stats.

insecure
2009-01-20, 03:31 PM
Another Mortal Kombat moment that I read about over on the Brilliant Gameologists forum.

Adventurers Vault has a weapon enchant called Grasping or Gripping or something like that. It only goes on Spears, and when it hits, allows you to pull the target into a square ajacent to you.

Thing is...nothing about it requires you to wield it in melee.

Well....a Javelin is a spear. Throw the Grasping Javelin at someone like, 10 squares away.

GET OVER HERE!!!

[/MORTAL KOMBAT]

Plain awesome-ness.:smallbiggrin:

Asbestos
2009-01-20, 03:39 PM
Another Mortal Kombat moment that I read about over on the Brilliant Gameologists forum.

Adventurers Vault has a weapon enchant called Grasping or Gripping or something like that. It only goes on Spears, and when it hits, allows you to pull the target into a square ajacent to you.

Thing is...nothing about it requires you to wield it in melee.

Well....a Javelin is a spear. Throw the Grasping Javelin at someone like, 10 squares away.

GET OVER HERE!!!

[/MORTAL KOMBAT]

Its a Grasping weapon, spears and polearms, and I was sure that it didn't work that way so I went and looked it up... and 1/encounter, by RAW, it can totally work that way. Not only are you pulling them next to you, but they're grabbed as well.

Mando Knight
2009-01-20, 03:52 PM
Another Mortal Kombat moment that I read about over on the Brilliant Gameologists forum.

Adventurers Vault has a weapon enchant called Grasping or Gripping or something like that. It only goes on Spears, and when it hits, allows you to pull the target into a square ajacent to you.

Thing is...nothing about it requires you to wield it in melee.

Well....a Javelin is a spear. Throw the Grasping Javelin at someone like, 10 squares away.

GET OVER HERE!!!

[/MORTAL KOMBAT]

This has to be the most amusing magic weapon I've read about in a while. It's also far better than the level 25/30 Ghost Chain Javelin... and it's the same level as the basic Magic Weapon. I'd personally like to see an Eladrin Fighter with a Grasping Tratnyr hurling the weapon at an artillery opponent and marking him... the artillery now wants to move away to avoid AoOs when he uses ranged attacks, but can't because of the Fighter's abilities. A good fighter also has decent Wis, so eating the Attack of Opportunity isn't an option, either. It's a lose-lose situation when a paragon or epic-tier Eladrin Spear-Hurler/Fighter starts his turn within 19 spaces of you. (10 Javelin/Tratnyr, +2 Far Throw, penalty negated with Distant Shot, 6 speed, +1 Fleet Footed)

NecroRebel
2009-01-20, 04:01 PM
Wait wait wait... you can still use the Footwork lure junk, if just won't trip, right? Why don't you just shift or something?
Or, even if you are, the wording of the Polearm Master's Forceful Reach ability says "...slides a target, you increase the distance of the forced movement by 1 square." So, you should still be able to bring it into your square and then one extra square, right? I guess that's open to interpretation, maybe.

You can't usually make opportunity attacks against nonadjacent targets, so you can normally only slide them 1 with Footwork Lure, so it normally won't trip. That's why I said that it was harder for a pure-class Fighter to use a Glaive than a Warlord/Fighter (or a Fighter who paragon multiclassed into Warlord, but that's not usually something we consider because, let's face it, paragon multiclassing sucks).

How Footwork Lure interacts with Forceful Reach is... questionable. You very explicitly slide them into your square with Footwork Lure, so do you get to slide them another square due to Forceful Reach? My thought is probably not, but that is, as you say, open to interpretation.


Doesn't this this build require you to have a 15 in Dex and Wisdom? Considering you should have at least a 16 in strength if you want to hit anything. I don't know if I'm gonna do this, now that I think about it. I don't like to Min-Max and I'll end up with really poor scores in the social stats.


I had the necessary starting stats all set out, and you can start with enough Dex, Wis, and Con to get all of the niceities of the Dwarf Halberd build by 30 while also starting with 16 Strength on 22 point-buy. Unfortunately, I've now lost the starting numbers, but let's see if I can't reconstruct them from the character I have built:

Level 30 STR 26 - 2 Eternal Defender, 8 levels - Level 1 STR 16
Level 30 CON 20 - 2 racial, 5 levels - Level 1 CON 13
Level 30 DEX 18 - 3 levels - Level 1 DEX 15
Level 30 INT 13 - 3 levels - Level 1 INT 10
Level 30 WIS 18 - 2 racial, 3 levels - Level 1 WIS 13
Level 30 CHA 10 - 2 levels - Level 1 CHA 8

16/15/13/13/10/8 preracial at level 1, for 9+7+3+3+0+0, or 22, point buy. Going to be available in most games.

You obviously do start with somewhat low Charisma for social stats and the lowest Strength stat that is practical for a Fighter, so it is a bit min-max-ish. As I had mentioned before, I had built the character for a one-shot combat encounter (specifically, against Tiamat), so social aspects were immaterial for me.

You could save a lot of points on Constitution if you were to build for a non-halberd-wielder. An Elf Glaive-wielding tripper could eke out another 7 points to buy up Charisma and/or Strength another few points by dropping Con to 10 and Dex to 13 preracial at the later cost of not getting autotripping OAs at epic level. If you're never going to pass level 20, it's a nonissue, in other words.