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quiet1mi
2009-01-19, 10:26 AM
hello everyone... I have recently open pandora's box of optimization when to my horror a trip monk was the best my group could come up with.

I showed them the Ubercharger, and all that is left is awe. As my damage is higher than everyones output combined, while being three levels lower than everyone in the group. ( I recently joined)

Now for the questions. how do things like improved power attack and supreme power attack interact with leap attack? Do they stack and cause one hit shots or shoulod I not even bother with Leap attack?

supreme power attack and improved power attack are from the Frenzied berserker presteige class

Mushroom Ninja
2009-01-19, 10:51 AM
Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3).

I hope this helps.

quiet1mi
2009-01-19, 11:01 AM
my problem stems from the fact that the supreme power attack and Imp. Powerattack do not multiply but rather say for every -1 penalty you take you get a +4 bonus with a two handed weapon

Keld Denar
2009-01-19, 11:03 AM
No, actually they errata'd the way Leap Attack works, which makes it obscenely OP. Instead of the ususal "2x or double" working, Leap Attack increases PA by 100%.

So, Supreme PA, from a FB10, gives 4:1 PA on its own. Leap Attack increases this by amount by 100%, which means 8:1 PA.

Now, since that is static addative damage, it is added to other static addative damage (+str) before we stack other multipliers onto it. Say we have an Orc with Headlong Rush, doubling damage on a charge. Now we make his weapon Valorous. And, for grins and giggles, we give him the Pious Templar(CWarrior) PrC, giving him a handful of Paladin spells, from which he casts Rhino's Rush (SpC, Pal1). That means hes got a base multiplier of x2 (HR) +1 (Valorous) +1 (RR), or x4. So, now we multiply all damage by x4. This means that the 1.5x str for using a 2handed weapon becomes 6x str, and that 8:1 PA becomes 32:1 PA. Oh, and if that Greatsword crits? 7.5x str damage and 40:1 PA.

Fortunately, by RAW, you can't combine Spirited Charge and Leap Attack...*shudder*

Because of the way the multipliers interact with different parts of the damage, this is how I feel most accurately describes the combination of these effects. Hope this helps.

quiet1mi
2009-01-19, 11:06 AM
Headlong Rush is in what book? does leap-attack multipily my Str bonus as well?

Keld Denar
2009-01-19, 11:16 AM
No, LA doesn't multiply your str. The other effects do though. LA just multiplies your PA.

As for Headlong Rush, look it up on crystal keep.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-01-19, 11:17 AM
No, actually they errata'd the way Leap Attack works, which makes it obscenely OP. Instead of the ususal "2x or double" working, Leap Attack increases PA by 100%.


WotC must have gone mad. That is the only explanation.

Eskil
2009-01-19, 11:49 AM
Headlong Rush is in what book?

Races of Faerūn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a) apparently.
Between the the Gray Orcs and the Orc Warlord

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-19, 01:54 PM
I have said it before, I will likely say it again:

Frenzied Berserker is a TPK in a can

Eventually, you WILL fail a Will save, you WILL destroy the entire party, and everyone WILL be sore about their characters dying, and the GM will be sore about his campaign being completely destroyed, because you chose to try to get every last little point out of charging.

You can charge quite will with PA/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper. You don't need FB to dish out obscene levels of damage. It's like having Foxglove Icing on the cake... sure, it's sweet, but it will kill you in the end.

7th lvl scrub
2009-01-19, 05:59 PM
Frenzied Berserker is a TPK in a can

Not unless your spellcasters have calm emotions or hold person.

Keld Denar
2009-01-19, 06:08 PM
Not unless your spellcasters have calm emotions or hold person.

Screw that, those are 2nd level spells, which are prescious! Use Grease. Frenzy denies the ability to make dex based checks while, which balanced is. No balance check, no getting off the grease. All that anger just gets you lubed up REAL good.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-19, 06:08 PM
Not unless your spellcasters have calm emotions or hold person.

Both of which have a Will save. So either they're having to do this constantly (which means possibly running OUT of them), or they rolled a nat 1 on their Will save, and will likely make the save on a 1st or 2nd level spell (particularly considering the bonus to save vs mind affecting while Frenzy), in which case, these will likely not be effective.

Arbitrarity
2009-01-19, 06:11 PM
Or if you got ranks in concentration and a Ring of the Diamond Mind, Novice (alternatively, get psionic focus, and only a few ranks in concentration). Or, if your spellcasters have a metric ton of will save boosts and Battle Hymn.

And yes, grease. Though 0.o if your foes use it :P.

allonym
2009-01-19, 06:12 PM
Yeah, because spellcasters always have such big problems with dealing with meleers... :smallwink:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-19, 06:14 PM
Or if you got ranks in concentration and a Ring of the Diamond Mind, Novice (alternatively, get psionic focus, and only a few ranks in concentration). Or, if your spellcasters have a metric ton of will save boosts and Battle Hymn. Yea, SOP is to raise the Will save to the point where the FB can make it except on a nat 1, so it doesn't happen often.


And yes, grease. Though 0.o if your foes use it :P.

That's the other problem with FB. Anything you can use to shut him down, the DM can use to shut him down as well. Grease is easily avoided, though. Reflex save before needing to make a balance check, and most FB's use Leap Attack, so you're not on the ground to run through the grease in the first place.

Keld Denar
2009-01-19, 06:20 PM
Buh-wha?

10 FB dispatches last foe.
20 Friendly caster casts grease under FB.
30 FB does or does not make save.
40 FB tries to move, requiring a Balance check.
50 FB autofails, lands on butt
60 FB stands, end turn.
70 Goto 40

Frenzy will wear off sooner than Grease, leaving you a fatigued and sweaty barbarian covered in KY jelly and blood. Sounds like fun!