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Moonshadow
2009-01-19, 11:17 PM
Is it possible to get it high enough that you could convince an NPC that you were invisible?

And thn use that opportunity to beat the crud out of them/rob them blind?

Seffbasilisk
2009-01-19, 11:19 PM
Heck, use Glibness, and so long as the NPC was willing to listen to you (perhaps using the Mosquito's bite skilltrick from Complete Scoundrel) you could.

Lappy9000
2009-01-19, 11:20 PM
Heck, use Glibness, and so long as the NPC was willing to listen to you (perhaps using the Mosquito's bite skilltrick from Complete Scoundrel) you could.
Assuming you can bypass the DM's "NO Stick," of course.

xPANCAKEx
2009-01-19, 11:29 PM
the wrath of the no stick is to be feared

The Glyphstone
2009-01-19, 11:41 PM
Does anyone actually read the PHB anymore, instead of just skimming the SRD?



A successful Bluff check indicates
that the target reacts as you wish, at
least for a short time (usually
1 round or less) or believes
something that you want it to
believe. Bluff, however, is not a
suggestion spell. For example, you could
use bluff to put a shopkeeper off guard
by saying that his shoes are untied. At
best, such a bluff would make the
shopkeeper glance down at his
shoes. It would not cause him to
ignore you and fiddle with his
shoes.

Darn kids!

Eldariel
2009-01-19, 11:58 PM
Does anyone actually read the PHB anymore, instead of just skimming the SRD?



Darn kids!

Except he said "Sufficiently large". Therefore:
Epic usages of Bluff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#bluff)

Jasdoif
2009-01-20, 12:00 AM
If you can handle the target getting a +50 on its Sense Motive check, you can use Bluff to instill a suggestion.

Of course, this relies on your DM agreeing that epic skill usages such as Bluff's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#bluff) can be used by nonepic characters, but hey.

EDIT: ...now how'd I get ninja'd on that one?

Eldariel
2009-01-20, 12:02 AM
EDIT: ...now how'd I get ninja'd on that one?

Everything is possible as long as the personCs in the question are sufficiently epic.

Kroy
2009-01-20, 12:10 AM
EDIT: ...now how'd I get ninja'd on that one?

Ninjas are sneaky indeed. Also, sig'd.

Moonshadow
2009-01-20, 02:20 AM
I've never played 3.5, or read the books for it, so I have no idea how Bluff works.


I just thought it would be cool if you could ocnvince someone that you weren't there, just by talking >>

Draz74
2009-01-20, 03:01 AM
I think it's possible to convince an NPC that you sincerely think you're invisible. But that's it, except maybe with the epic check. And if they can see you perfectly well, but you convince them you think you're invisible, they'll tag you for a loony pronto.

malcolm
2009-01-20, 03:04 AM
Assuming you can bypass the DM's "NO Stick," of course.

Only if you play with a DM that is so intent on ignoring the rules that he disallows legitimate applications of skills.

Zeful
2009-01-20, 03:11 AM
Only if you play with a DM that is so intent on ignoring the rules that he disallows legitimate applications of skills.

Talking someone into believing your invisible is not a legitimate use of the skill.

Rad
2009-01-20, 03:37 AM
you could still have them believe that you are an illusion or a dream (as Haley does in otOotPC).

Moofaa
2009-01-20, 03:44 AM
Well, you can backstab with a ballista. So why not bluff...

I don't know about epic-level bluffs, but trying to convince someone you are an illusion is something I might allow, with a terrible penalty to success and if the person is of a suitable level. (prolly 10+)

Curmudgeon
2009-01-20, 03:45 AM
Of course, this relies on your DM agreeing that epic skill usages such as Bluff's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#bluff) can be used by nonepic characters, but hey. Epic feats require that characters be of epic level. Epic skills have no such requirment. That's part of the 3.5 rules, and no DM alteration of those rules is required.

bosssmiley
2009-01-20, 06:21 AM
Epic feats require that characters be of epic level. Epic skills have no such requirment. That's part of the 3.5 rules, and no DM alteration of those rules is required.

Most of the epic skill uses should, by rights, come into play pre-epic. I mean, a 15th level character is already supposed to be able to do outlandish, larger-than-life stuff. Skill DCs just don't reflect that. :smallannoyed:

As for convincing someone you're invisible. See the section on penalties for unbelievable bluffs (-20 IIRC). Heck, stage magicians can fool the eye; so why not high-level skill monkeys?

Jasdoif
2009-01-20, 11:12 AM
Epic feats require that characters be of epic level. Epic skills have no such requirment. That's part of the 3.5 rules, and no DM alteration of those rules is required.Yeah, I know. But at the same time, I can easily see a DM deciding "It says epic so you need to be epic" instead. Particularly if they thought they wouldn't need any part of the epic rules of their game.

Also, the statement made a handy segue to a link for the epic skill rules.

BRC
2009-01-20, 11:36 AM
I once heard a story about somebody bluffing a BBEG into believing they (The BBEG) didn't exist.

woodenbandman
2009-01-20, 11:48 AM
You could convince them that they're talking to an illusion.

Avor
2009-01-20, 01:23 PM
As a DM offten with a nasty rouge infection, I play bluff by my own rules. First off, if you are proven wrong, you automaticly fail.

example, a rouge walks up to a NPC and claims to be their long lost child, no matter what the PC rolls, if the NPC is chaste or whatever, it just will not work. And any fallow up lies such as "Wait, what I reapy mean Im your nephew" will fail as well

Also common sense preveils. Walking up to a town gaurd and telling him that it would be a good idea for him to give you his sword, doesnt work. But tricking him into beleiving that somebody is trying to hurt you is alot easier.


When in doubt, **** with the DC, like the DC for telling somebody you are accualy invisable has a DC of ab out 87

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-20, 01:35 PM
example, a rouge walks up to a NPC and claims to be their long lost child, no matter what the PC rolls...

That's why you tell it to the guards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wineville_Chicken_Coop_Murders#Walter_Collins) instead...


Seriously though, neither Bluff nor Diplomacy are supposed to violate common sense, even at epic levels. You can't use either to convince someone that the sky overhead is green instead of blue. (Although you could probably distract them briefly with that whole "Well how do you know what you call blue doesn't look like what you call green to me!?" line, if they are inclined to be distracted.)

Once magic enters the mix, of course, you can do any impossible thing you like.

kjones
2009-01-20, 02:26 PM
As a DM offten with a nasty rouge infection, I play bluff by my own rules. First off, if you are proven wrong, you automaticly fail.

example, a rouge walks up to a NPC and claims to be their long lost child, no matter what the PC rolls, if the NPC is chaste or whatever, it just will not work. And any fallow up lies such as "Wait, what I reapy mean Im your nephew" will fail as well

Also common sense preveils. Walking up to a town gaurd and telling him that it would be a good idea for him to give you his sword, doesnt work. But tricking him into beleiving that somebody is trying to hurt you is alot easier.


When in doubt, **** with the DC, like the DC for telling somebody you are accualy invisable has a DC of ab out 87

I agree with the general sentiment here, but I think your example is flawed.

Consider:
"I'm your son!"
"But I've been chaste all my life!"
"You were under the charms of a wizard at the time, who erased your memory afterwards!"

This is certainly a hard-to-believe bluff, and would thus receive a -20 on the check, but it's enough to go from "It couldn't be!" to "Hmm..."

Telonius
2009-01-20, 02:30 PM
I think it's possible to convince an NPC that you sincerely think you're invisible. But that's it, except maybe with the epic check. And if they can see you perfectly well, but you convince them you think you're invisible, they'll tag you for a loony pronto.

Well, it's possible.

Harvey the Rogue: Really, I'm invisible, except to you. Only you can see me!
Elwood: (whiffs his sense motive) ... you know, that's just crazy enough to work.

Narmoth
2009-01-20, 04:55 PM
Well, depends on how you are trying to bluff.
If the person in question can't see you, but can hear you, you could bluff the person to believe that you were invisible. Use a spell or ability to make your voice come from another source than yourself, and he would turn that way, enabling you to sneak behind his back.
You could also try to convince the person that you were an illusion.
But you can't make him believe that he isn't seeing you when in fact he is.

Starbuck_II
2009-01-20, 05:22 PM
That reminds me of a Pot head in Philosophy class: who during a discussion actually ran out of the room saying: I don't exist.

7th lvl scrub
2009-01-20, 09:02 PM
Personally, something I want to atleast try to do is if somebody gets a VERY high roll on a bluff check they BS the world into believing it's true.