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AslanCross
2009-01-20, 08:09 AM
I didn't want to hijack Saph's thread, so I have here some questions regarding the Red Hand of Doom:

While the adventure has notes on how to use RHoD in Eberron, it only focuses on location. How about the cult of Tiamat? It's relatively central to the plot, especially to the last part.

Tiamat isn't really worshipped in Eberron, although the constellations are named after the dragon gods. How would one explain her willingness to interfere on the Material Plane, especially using the hobgoblin horde in particular, with a plan of this magnitude? The implications of the adventure are that Elsir Vale is only the beginning.

Grail
2009-01-20, 08:13 AM
My knowledge of Eberon is limited, however couldn't this be Tiamat trying to extend her influence where it isn't strong? Also, the plots are really those of Azur Kul, it just so happens that Tiamat has decided that he is worthy and his goals demand support.

that's how i'd explain it anyway.

Kol Korran
2009-01-21, 03:07 PM
first of all, i must say i barely know the RHoD (mostly from saph's journal and similar sources), but i am familiar with Eberron so here are my thoughts on your questions, and generally on the setting in this particular setting:
1) Tiamat, like all deities in Eberron, is an idea. no one knows if it exists, it never exerted any real influence in the world and no one knows what it wants. in EBerron it's not about the reality of God, but about the belief in God. in short- Tiamat itself is irrelevent, her belivers are all that realy matters- what they believe would further the goals and ideals that Tiamat represents.

this means that the focus should be on Azur Kul's interpertation of tiamat and how it spread it amongst the hobgoblins. how the hobgoblin masses view this new faith (they have followed versions of the dark six or soverign host so far. this is a brand new exciting faith!) and last but not least- how the dragons fit into this. they could be followers of tiamat, servitors or partners (this slightly changes how you play them), or maybe not related to her at all... they could also fit into the following idea-

2) the greater scheme: as you mentioned, something bigger, grander is afoot, to which the attacks on brindol are only the begining. one perfect theme of Eberron can be used by you to tie Azur Kul, the dragons, and "omens and propehcies" all together- the draconic prophecy! years ago Azur Kul either figured out on him/her (i don't know) self parts of the draconic prophecy, or another dragon (of the chamber or otherwise) singled him out through the prophecy. the prophecy spoke in riddles and ambigueous signs (as it always does) but some sense was made, enough to spark a new faith, raise an army of hobgoblins and other creatures, and get the assistance of dragons (who were also entranced/ persuaded/ intrigued) by the possibilities of the prophecy.
the characters may even find clues for the influence of the prophecy on their actions, or the red hand's actions (the razorfiedn hatchery, stealing the ghostlord's phylactery, and more). maybe the characters themselves are identified in the prophecy, and Azur KUl might send assasins after them (or major adverseries such as the wyrmlords can identify them and combat their strengths and abilities better, armed by knowledge of the prophecy).
lastly- you can use the prophecy to foretell future developments as this mini campaign comes to a close. this could be the link onwards- maybe the cathedral of brindol actually sits atop an artifact that can be used to release one of the rakshasa rajas? or maybe it is actually part of a massive size (countries wide) seal to xoriat? let your imagination run free.

3) a curious idea: i don't know what race Azur Kul is (other than being half dragon) but what about making the other half a rakshasa? a blasphemous combination of what represnts good and what represents evil. if you use the prophecy idea such individual will surely fit to be a nexus of that twisiting phasm. this works splendidly well with a party who actually read and knows about eberron (and more so if there are any characters belonging to the silver flame).

4) a substitute for tiamat: a new forging of the dark five! (dark six minus the traveler, which isn't realy a part of them anyway) each "dragon color" represnts one of the dark gods (i figured black= shadow, red= fury, green= devourer, white= keeper and blue= mockery, but you can change and alter them, including two or more heads of the same color). this concept is more belieavable concerning the goblinoids, who will surely flock to such a new faith. the dragons can join for various reasons, but more likely less religious ones. the major advantage (and disadvantage) of this approach is having a far more varied faith and clerical forces. this is only good if you can show the various 5 gods influence in a convinving manner. hard to do.

5) hobgolbins: just an idea to spice them up a bit- have them come from several differennt tribes, who are not happy with how Darguun is progressing. they will most likely be veterans of the last war. use any of the following to give them more color, more context other than just "humanoids who fight and die": tribal flags and signs, armor decorated with unit regalia or symbols (under the "red hand" symbol) use militery formations and language, have the hobgoblins form lines, use covering fire, and other simple militery drill. create a few "top notch" units to challange the characters (maybe such unit try to hunt the "foretold foe" that was prophecised). use bards as well as clerics, as war chanters.

6) dragons: don't have much to say here, just that dragons generally hold a fairly unique place in eberron. most dragons either reside in argonnesen or are chamber members. however not all are so- some dragons quit argonessen long ago and they (and their offspring) live elswhere, even on khorvaire. i suggest you find a good excuse for each dragon to follow Azur Kul (greed, curiousity, secret member of the chamber following events gauging where they'll lead, a fallen member of the chamber following a new lead on the prophecy against orders, just a desire to kill things and be worshiped as an instrument of god), and play them accordingly (some players like to try and talk to dragons or persuade them. could be an interesting development).

that all i have to say. if you d oread this Aslan, tell me what you think. hopefully all this writing wasn't for naught.

AslanCross
2009-01-21, 05:55 PM
My knowledge of Eberon is limited, however couldn't this be Tiamat trying to extend her influence where it isn't strong? Also, the plots are really those of Azur Kul, it just so happens that Tiamat has decided that he is worthy and his goals demand support.

that's how i'd explain it anyway.

The main thing behind Eberron's deities is that they're a good deal less involved in the mortal world, unlike FR's for example. They never have avatars, and while they are worshipped far and wide, nobody has ever seen them. (With the possible exception of the Silver Flame, which does have a manifestation of some sort in Flamekeep.) Outsiders don't really appear in Eberron either, since they're busy fighting each other forever on the plane of Shavarath.

This does tie well with the whole "it was Azarr Kul's plot" idea, as a lot of the great movers and shakers of Eberron in the past were mortals.


first of all, i must say i barely know the RHoD (mostly from saph's journal and similar sources), but i am familiar with Eberron so here are my thoughts on your questions, and generally on the setting in this particular setting:
1) Tiamat, like all deities in Eberron, is an idea. no one knows if it exists, it never exerted any real influence in the world and no one knows what it wants. in EBerron it's not about the reality of God, but about the belief in God. in short- Tiamat itself is irrelevent, her belivers are all that realy matters- what they believe would further the goals and ideals that Tiamat represents.

Yeah, I guess this makes sense for the most part. I was surprised to learn that even the Lord of Blades has clerics who get spells, so this works. The only caveat is
Tiamat herself makes an appearance in the ending, with Azarr Kul's err, explosively dramatic death scene. The last "boss" is actually an aspect of Tiamat. In fact, the serious threat that the PCs are trying to prevent after defending Brindol is the summoning of an infernal army (which I guess could come from Shavarath instead of Avernus). Azarr Kul's death allows the portal to open, although it's only enough for Tiamat to send her aspect.


this means that the focus should be on Azur Kul's interpertation of tiamat and how it spread it amongst the hobgoblins. how the hobgoblin masses view this new faith (they have followed versions of the dark six or soverign host so far. this is a brand new exciting faith!) and last but not least- how the dragons fit into this. they could be followers of tiamat, servitors or partners (this slightly changes how you play them), or maybe not related to her at all... they could also fit into the following idea-

2) the greater scheme: as you mentioned, something bigger, grander is afoot, to which the attacks on brindol are only the begining. one perfect theme of Eberron can be used by you to tie Azur Kul, the dragons, and "omens and propehcies" all together- the draconic prophecy! years ago Azur Kul either figured out on him/her (i don't know) self parts of the draconic prophecy, or another dragon (of the chamber or otherwise) singled him out through the prophecy. the prophecy spoke in riddles and ambigueous signs (as it always does) but some sense was made, enough to spark a new faith, raise an army of hobgoblins and other creatures, and get the assistance of dragons (who were also entranced/ persuaded/ intrigued) by the possibilities of the prophecy.
the characters may even find clues for the influence of the prophecy on their actions, or the red hand's actions (the razorfiedn hatchery, stealing the ghostlord's phylactery, and more). maybe the characters themselves are identified in the prophecy, and Azur KUl might send assasins after them (or major adverseries such as the wyrmlords can identify them and combat their strengths and abilities better, armed by knowledge of the prophecy).

The Draconic Prophecy was an idea had as well. Since it seems to have such a vast scope and dragons themselves can't even comprehend the whole, the Red Hand's movement might be a great development in it. Perhaps in this case, Tiamat could serve as a negative embodiment of the Prophecy---the united forces of Chromatic dragons and their desire to rule Eberron once more after all these years.


lastly- you can use the prophecy to foretell future developments as this mini campaign comes to a close. this could be the link onwards- maybe the cathedral of brindol actually sits atop an artifact that can be used to release one of the rakshasa rajas? or maybe it is actually part of a massive size (countries wide) seal to xoriat? let your imagination run free.

Hmm, this is an interesting idea, although I wouldn't know why the hobgoblins would want to unlock a seal to Xoriat. After all, kicking out the Daelkyr was their legacy.

The Rakshasa rajah idea, on the other hand, kind of runs contrary to the presence of dragons in the campaign. Though there's definitely potential for both.


3) a curious idea: i don't know what race Azur Kul is (other than being half dragon) but what about making the other half a rakshasa? a blasphemous combination of what represnts good and what represents evil. if you use the prophecy idea such individual will surely fit to be a nexus of that twisiting phasm. this works splendidly well with a party who actually read and knows about eberron (and more so if there are any characters belonging to the silver flame).

He's a half-blue dragon hobgoblin. One of his main hooks for the hobgoblins is that he's going to unite them and make them great, as the "People of the Dragon."


4) a substitute for tiamat: a new forging of the dark five! (dark six minus the traveler, which isn't realy a part of them anyway) each "dragon color" represnts one of the dark gods (i figured black= shadow, red= fury, green= devourer, white= keeper and blue= mockery, but you can change and alter them, including two or more heads of the same color). this concept is more belieavable concerning the goblinoids, who will surely flock to such a new faith. the dragons can join for various reasons, but more likely less religious ones. the major advantage (and disadvantage) of this approach is having a far more varied faith and clerical forces. this is only good if you can show the various 5 gods influence in a convinving manner. hard to do.

After reading Faiths of Eberron, I see that the color symbolism kind of fits.
Not so sure how the clerics would work together, though, considering they typically don't operate together.


5) hobgolbins: just an idea to spice them up a bit- have them come from several differennt tribes, who are not happy with how Darguun is progressing. they will most likely be veterans of the last war. use any of the following to give them more color, more context other than just "humanoids who fight and die": tribal flags and signs, armor decorated with unit regalia or symbols (under the "red hand" symbol) use militery formations and language, have the hobgoblins form lines, use covering fire, and other simple militery drill. create a few "top notch" units to challange the characters (maybe such unit try to hunt the "foretold foe" that was prophecised). use bards as well as clerics, as war chanters.

They were definitely from different tribes to begin with in RHoD, and I guess the discontent with Darguun works well. Perhaps they figured that without the power of dragons with them, it's very easy for the human nations to bully them (if ever the Five Nations get their act together). The idea of a "new god" is also a good unifying factor.


6) dragons: don't have much to say here, just that dragons generally hold a fairly unique place in eberron. most dragons either reside in argonnesen or are chamber members. however not all are so- some dragons quit argonessen long ago and they (and their offspring) live elswhere, even on khorvaire. i suggest you find a good excuse for each dragon to follow Azur Kul (greed, curiousity, secret member of the chamber following events gauging where they'll lead, a fallen member of the chamber following a new lead on the prophecy against orders, just a desire to kill things and be worshiped as an instrument of god), and play them accordingly (some players like to try and talk to dragons or persuade them. could be an interesting development).


-Regiarix: He's surprisingly loyal to his friend Wyrmlord Saarvith, especially for a black dragon. I guess he and Saarvith go way back, and that this gives him an exciting new opportunity to increase his influence and wealth.
-Ozzyrandion: As a green dragon, he might actually be a Blood of Vol spy who wants to see what this interesting new development is, and how this new cult might be subverted to serve the Queen of the Dead.
-Abithriax: The red dragon could be the fallen member of the Chamber, perhaps expelled for his willingness to directly interfere in the affairs of the humanoids.
-Tyrgarun: The blue dragon is actually Azarr Kul's father, and is also the oldest of the dragons in the campaign. My idea was that this whole thing was his idea, having gotten a lead on the Draconic Prophecy. To him, Tiamat embodies the unification of the dragons, and he went out to get a half-dragon son to establish a link with the "lesser races." He raised his son on this dogma. This indoctrination, combined with Azarr Kul's inflated ego, gave him the messiah complex that Tyrgarun thought the Prophecy called for.


that all i have to say. if you d oread this Aslan, tell me what you think. hopefully all this writing wasn't for naught.

Thanks a lot for your help. This thread will definitely be one of my references if ever I run this module in the future.

kpenguin
2009-01-21, 07:33 PM
I know nothing about Red Hand of Doom, so I don't know if this will be useful to you, but Tiamat does exist canonically in Eberron, according to Dragons of Eberron. She is a Daughter of Khyber and was imprisoned during the war between Dragons and the Fiends just like the Rakshasa rajahs. Unlike the Rajahs, though, there is a very real possibility of her being released. Her agents are Half-Dragon Rakshasas.

Iku Rex
2009-01-21, 07:46 PM
Dragons of Eberron has the Eberron canon on Tiamat.

Short version:

Tiamat is one of the most powerful Overlords from the Age of Demons. She can "corrupt and command" dragons, and chromatic dragons are especially vulnerable to her influence. Tiamat was eventually defeated by the couatls and is currently bound in the heavily guarded Pit of Five Sorrows on Argonessen. Her power to influence the world waxes and wanes. Currently she is more powerful than in a long time.

Her cult - the Talons of Tiamat - has both dragon and non-dragon members, and work to free her. Her clerics get spells through their faith and devotion.

As for the aspect: "Her [Tiamat's] chosen agents can commune with her, and at times they have even summoned aspects of her into the world—far weaker than Tiamat in her full glory, but fearsome nonetheless." -- Dragons of Eberron 21

AslanCross
2009-01-22, 09:12 AM
Thanks a lot, this makes things a lot easier. I should pick that book up.