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Frog Dragon
2009-01-20, 11:51 AM
I just got ToB from the mail an i was wondering. Would it be a good idea to use ToB style advancement for Caster Level? As in you get 1/2 caster levels for every other level you take. Let's take for example A Wizard level 6. He multiclasses into a rogue. He is now Wizard 6/rogue 1 and his Caster level is 6 1/2. Would that make caster/something non caster combinations more useful? Or would it open the door for horrible brokenness?

Eldariel
2009-01-20, 11:56 AM
That would help. That said, it's a pretty incomplete solution to the stupidity that is 3.5 caster multiclassing (or rather, PrC-classing since multiclassing between base classes gets you nowhere as a caster); it'd take a bit more hardcore changes to the system to make it truly work out.

Keld Denar
2009-01-20, 12:04 PM
Eh, casters are fine. They are already powerful enough as it is. Even multiclass casters like the "gish" and the arcane rogue fill their niches very efficiently, due the sheer number of PrCs out there that help.

Besides, CL is easy enough to recoup (Practiced Spellcaster) or advance further than your HD via items and other tricks.

Zephyros
2009-01-20, 12:07 PM
It could make PrCs with half caster progression more sufferable but on the other hand it would lead to some stupid things like: Duskblade 13/Wizard 7 (Duskblade CL16 & Wizard CL 13) <----simple to none optimization

So... No plz not... Definitely not...

edit: Unless u use it only for CL (and not spells known) and then it's just not needed...

kamikasei
2009-01-20, 12:10 PM
The problem is that maneuvers and spells are learned and known in quite different ways. For maneuvers, when you take a level in a martial class, you gain new maneuvers and/or can swap out old ones, and the level of new maneuvers you can learn is determined by your initiator level. This means a Fighter 10/Warblade 10 (in that order) is not as flexible as a Warblade 15, but can have just as powerful maneuvers known.

For casters, your caster level is only really relevant when you actually cast the spell. So a Rogue 8/Wizard 1 would cast like a first-level wizard casting first-level spells as if they were cast by a fifth-level wizard. This is much less good than having a first-level wizard's number of spells known and spells per day but being able to learn third-level spells.

Fundamentally, the difference between TOB and casters means that one way of handling this would be less good, and one way much better (that is, multiclassing less good for a caster than for TOB, not that the caster would necessarily be less powerful - he has kind of a head start after all). Just saying you get half your other levels as a bonus to your caster level would help make caster multiclassing less punishing, but not by a whole lot. On the other hand, saying you cast as a wizard of (your wizard levels + one-half your other levels) is too good. Or is it? It effectively makes the other classes into half-caster PRCs... depending on your power level that may be acceptable. Probably best to limit it to non-caster classes, though.

Frog Dragon
2009-01-20, 12:23 PM
Yeah no extra spells known or anything. Im not that crazy!:smallsmile: Just plain old Caster level. I'm not looking to boost casters. Just give a little boost to caster gishes who are somewhat gimped as both their casting and other class abilities are quickly decidedly subpar against what a normal member of either class could do. Some gishes work I'm willing to sign that, but most don't and I don't think a CL boost would ramp up Casters too much. They'e giving up casting anyway and it would be more effective to go straight caster most of the time. What I am fearing is some PRC:s. Are there some really powerful PRC:s on the class ablities standpoint tha lose CL to compensate. Because I see getting a rock-ass level with a Wizard/Malconvoker/Something that loses one level at the start. You would still get 1/2 so the penalty is negated. Does that amount to any serious cheese?

Zeful
2009-01-20, 12:38 PM
I just got ToB from the mail an i was wondering. Would it be a good idea to use ToB style advancement for Caster Level? As in you get 1/2 caster levels for every other level you take. Let's take for example A Wizard level 6. He multiclasses into a rogue. He is now Wizard 6/rogue 1 and his Caster level is 6 1/2. Would that make caster/something non caster combinations more useful? Or would it open the door for horrible brokenness?

If you did that you would have to gut caster PrCs otherwise you get spellcasting as a 22nd level caster with Wizard 15/Archmage 5.

Keld Denar
2009-01-20, 12:42 PM
The thing is, for your example of a gish, is that you either use spells and effects that aren't dependant on CL and/or save DC, or you recoup CL loss via Practiced Spellcaster. A standard gish at this point in the edition doesn't lob a fireball and then charge in behind it, he casts Greater Heroism and goes in Wraithstriking, or Polymorphs himself into something beastly and mauls faces, or, if he does cast spells, its through Arcane Channeling or similar feature, that allows him to make an attack as well as swing for damage. Thus, CL and DCs aren't as important, which is good, because they won't be as high as a dedicated straight class caster. Its just a different play style to acompany a different builds strenght. If you want to chuck fireballs, then take classes and features that make you better at it, but if you want to use magic to augement your martial offenses and defenses, you can do that as well, atm, without being quite as affected due to the presence of Abj Champion, Eldrich Knight, the Practiced Spellcaster feat, and other options.

woodenbandman
2009-01-20, 01:05 PM
No No No No No No never ever ever do this. This is only viable if you eliminate all other ways to boost caster level, entirely, with no other way to get a good caster level.

Zeful
2009-01-20, 01:21 PM
No No No No No No never ever ever do this. This is only viable if you eliminate all other ways to boost caster level, entirely, with no other way to get a good caster level.

Then no caster would go PrC (not that it's a bad thing because PrC's are a variant rule anyway), just reduce the maximum CL advancement from PrC's like Archmage to 1/2 max (starting on the second level), other don't get any.

FMArthur
2009-01-20, 03:55 PM
I honestly don't even like ToB initiator levels being advanced by other classes. It feels like I should always wait until 20th level if I want a small ToB dip to be worthwhile.

Nohwl
2009-01-20, 04:24 PM
how would a prestige class like mystic theurge work under this system?

Zeful
2009-01-20, 04:34 PM
how would a prestige class like mystic theurge work under this system?

It wouldn't. Dual progression PrCs would be stricken from existence.

Knaight
2009-01-20, 06:25 PM
I like the idea, it would let people mix classes together with a better result(ie warblade 4, cleric 3, wizard 3 as a tenth level character would have an initiator level of 7(and thus 3rd level maneuvers), and arcane and divine levels of 6(and thus 2nd level spells). 3rd level maneuvers, 2nd level arcane spells, and 2nd level divine spells would be balanced, and less powerful than just having 5th level arcane or divine spells, or 5th level maneuvers and the hit points to go with it.

Plus if you link other stuff up, it allows it to work well too with multiclassing(so a warblade 5, rogue 5 would do the sneak attack damage of a 7th level rogue, and have the manuevers of a 7th level warblade). Of course, you would have to take a good look at the system, and what would be allowed and stuff, as if it had been built with this sort of thing from the beginning it would work differently(and better probably.

Temp.
2009-01-20, 07:14 PM
One of my groups plays with a system like this with Psionics, advancing max PP investment with every other non-manifesting level. It's worked pretty well so far.

Of course that group also decided to tear the entire system apart and rebuild it as a generic class system centered around ToB, psionics and a Lurk/Factotum sorta thing, so it's hard to say how it would mesh with a regular game.



But frankly, I don't see how it would hurt anything in a normal game, either. If it means spellcasters are more apt to lose caster levels, all the better--they'll actually lose power in the process; the first law of character optimization still applies. If it means the Barbarian starts throwing Hastes and Righteous Mights around with a few dips or the Rogue starts shooting Moonbows with only a couple levels' investment, that's actually not such a bad thing in my book.

...And again, I probably need to qualify my opinions about balance: I have no beef with class imbalance in the game. If the Cleric beats the Samurai, great--If I want to play a powerful badass normal Samurai, I'll just refluff the Cleric and use it to build my character. If the Wizard makes the Rogue obscelete, great--I'll just use Unseen Seer to build my Rogue.

Lycar
2009-01-21, 04:04 PM
I think the base idea isn't to power up casters, but to make a little dip into a caster class, to pick up some utility for a melee class viable.

Like, you know, picking up a level or two of Fighter to get a nice feat. :smallamused:

How about this: Use the spellpoints variant for total arcane power and

A) limit spells available to cast only by what you can get into your spellbook (or the usual progression for spells known for the spontaneous casters).
This, of course, requires the GM to keep a very tight control about what kinds of stuff he allows to fall into the greedy hands of PCs.

B) make spellcasting a skill check for all non-spontaneous casters. A spellcraft check maybe. Something to the tune of 10 + (spell lv. x 2) or something. Or maybe 15 + (spell lv. x2), if you make skill boosting items readily available.

Personally I would favour the x2 variant, but make Spellcasting a new skill, linked to the casting stat, but totally impossible to boost by any means magical.


In this case, give characters that start their lives as wizards or other preparation casters a special ability to take 10 on Spellcasting checks, even in battle.

In the same vein, give people who start as Fighter at lv. 1 'Superior Weapon Aptitude' : Feats that usually only affect a singlke weapon affect all weapons of a category, chosen at the time the feat is picked up. Something like swords (short,long,great, etc.), hammers (warhammer, morningstar etc.), polearms ... you get the idea.

Hm.. any ideas about a nice 'Core Class Feature' for skill monkeys?

Lycar

Prometheus
2009-01-21, 04:20 PM
The OP variant would make it tempting for casters to be awesome AND take everyone else's job. No thanks.

Temp.
2009-01-21, 04:58 PM
The OP variant would make it tempting for casters to be awesome AND take everyone else's job. No thanks.
Huh? Casters already have everyone else's jobs.

A ToB-styled spellcasting system would just mean that your badass warrior character might have reason to take more levels in Fighter than in Cleric. I don't see anything wrong with that.

And the OP's suggestion (just affecting CL, not actual spell levels) wouldn't affect the game in the slightest--Practiced Spellcaster and Abjurant Champion already make up for lost caster-levels in Gish Types. And Unseen Seer removes the need for Rogue-types to take more than 1 level in a non-spellcasting class.

The only casting(-ish) class that the OP's change would at all affect would be the Ardent because its is the only spell/power progression determined by caster level.

lilhowie624
2009-01-21, 05:02 PM
i agree with the posts above. its a good idea but you would have to rewrite a lot of prcs before doing so. as stated a wiz 15 / archmagi 5 is CL 22 thats above the normal allowed amount based on lvl. but i like the idea of 6wiz / 4clr and casting as an 8 and 7 to be nice

Eikre
2009-01-21, 08:08 PM
As it stands, every Unseen Seer has Practiced Spellcaster. Once you implement this house rule, every Unseen Seer who doesn't have a Krau sigil will take Practiced Spellcaster. Nothing changes for these people.

But this is truely useful for the people whose spellcasting class levels are in the minority, like Rangers or Paladins who took Prestige Classes, or people who dipped into Bard or Cleric and have a few 1st and 2nd level spells that only heal 1d6 or last for two rounds.


If you did that you would have to gut caster PrCs otherwise you get spellcasting as a 22nd level caster with Wizard 15/Archmage 5.

Yeah, just like all those Warblade 15/Master of the Nine 5 people who have a 22 Initiator Level? Please. Do you really think he's that dense?