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Dyllan
2009-01-20, 12:25 PM
I've got a player who wants to play a Goliath 2 handed weapon fighter type (not sold on having to stay in fighter class necessarily). He said he doesn't want to play a barbarian, though he might take a 1 level dip for the speed and ability to rage 1/day. As far as I know, he's not aware of the substitution level for Goliath barbarians - I assume once he is he'll be definite on that 1 level dip.

He's not the best optimizer in my party, though he tries, and I'm trying to run a very high power party to balance a rather low availability of magical gear and healing (no divine casters, and no bards... only item based healing). Basically he wants to wield a big two handed weapon and beat things up, but doesn't want to be a barbarian. Any tips on how to accomplish this.

Complications/modifications: First off, I'm giving every player a free -1 LA, so he's playing Goliath as a 0 LA. Second, he doesn't know it but he's going to be cursed with Lycanthropy. It'll be some 3 HD version, probably Black Bear. So he won't be getting his second class level until he's 4 HD. I'm also waiving the +2 LA for the lycanthropy (every PC is getting cursed with some form).

We're allowing flaws, so he's planning to take the one that gives -2 to one stat (his charisma) and the one that gives -2 to ranged attack rolls. He wants to be in melee the majority of the time.

We rolled 5d6, keep the best 3, six times for stats. He didn't roll very well:

16
15
15
11
11
9

Unless I give him a better option he likes, he's planning on straight fighter for a while, at least. Help me find a better choice for him.

Thanks,

-Dyllan

Lycanthromancer
2009-01-20, 12:33 PM
Try a half-giant psychic warrior, with his first power known as expansion and his second level feat as Link Power. Put his best stat in Wisdom, and he'll be able to be treated as Huge sized several times per day, which only gets better from there. Psychic warriors get all sorts of awesome stuff, including the ability to craft psionic versions of magical items (no change in what they do; the only difference is the power and feat required to create them), and the ability to research psion/wilder powers for extra flexibility. I can give further tips on how to run one effectively, if you're open to it.

You could even run a psychic warrior virtually naked, and he'd still perform well.

Alternately, try Tome of Battle. Martial adepts gain initiator levels (similar to caster levels) at a rate of 1/2 per HD + 1 per martial adept level, so he'll start with some decent abilities. Martial adepts can also do some awesome things, if you have any idea of what you're doing.

Dyllan
2009-01-20, 12:39 PM
Try a half-giant psychic warrior...
Alternately, try Tome of Battle. Martial adepts gain initiator levels (similar to caster levels) at a rate of 1/2 per HD + 1 per martial adept level, so he'll start with some decent abilities. Martial adepts can also do some awesome things, if you have any idea of what you're doing.

I'm not using psionics in the campaign, so that's out.

However, Tome of Battle is allowed. I haven't looked at the classes very closely. Do they suffer from MAD more than your standard fighter? He really can't afford to put anything decent into mental stats the way he rolled...

Any other suggestions? :-)

-Dyllan

Celeres
2009-01-20, 12:41 PM
power attack, weapon focus/specialization/mastery, leap attack

staple beat-stuff-up feats.

Starbuck_II
2009-01-20, 12:45 PM
I've got a player who wants to play a Goliath 2 handed weapon fighter type (not sold on having to stay in fighter class necessarily). He said he doesn't want to play a barbarian, though he might take a 1 level dip for the speed and ability to rage 1/day. As far as I know, he's not aware of the substitution level for Goliath barbarians - I assume once he is he'll be definite on that 1 level dip.

He's not the best optimizer in my party, though he tries, and I'm trying to run a very high power party to balance a rather low availability of magical gear and healing (no divine casters, and no bards... only item based healing). Basically he wants to wield a big two handed weapon and beat things up, but doesn't want to be a barbarian. Any tips on how to accomplish this.

Complications/modifications: First off, I'm giving every player a free -1 LA, so he's playing Goliath as a 0 LA. Second, he doesn't know it but he's going to be cursed with Lycanthropy. It'll be some 3 HD version, probably Black Bear. So he won't be getting his second class level until he's 4 HD. I'm also waiving the +2 LA for the lycanthropy (every PC is getting cursed with some form).

We're allowing flaws, so he's planning to take the one that gives -2 to one stat (his charisma) and the one that gives -2 to ranged attack rolls. He wants to be in melee the majority of the time.

We rolled 5d6, keep the best 3, six times for stats. He didn't roll very well:

16
15
15
11
11
9

Unless I give him a better option he likes, he's planning on straight fighter for a while, at least. Help me find a better choice for him.

Thanks,

-Dyllan

Can we rearrange his stats? Like 16 in Con, 15 in Str, etc?

TOB isn't that MAD if you stay a Crusader/Warblade:
Both have secondary Mental stats (Warblade Int. Cha or Wis for Crusader) but you can make them without and be decent.

He could try Swordsage (light armored warriors), but his AC won't be that high with no wisdom bonus. Granted, with his Barbarian level he can just wear meduim armor.

Keld Denar
2009-01-20, 12:57 PM
Have him check out the Knockback feat from Races of Stone (same place as Goliath). It add the comical ability to punt people when you hit them hard enough. This is both amusing and strong mechanically.

Now, open your Dungeonscape to the ACF section and check out the Dungeoncrasher fighter varient. Instead of your 2nd and 6th fighter bonus feats, you gain bonus damage when you knock people into walls. Thats just golden.

If you aren't playing with multiclass penalties, which are dumb, you could do something like a Goliath Fighter6/Barb1/WarbladeX. That would be fun and strong. Get a reach weapon like a Glaive or Spiked Chain and the Combat Reflexes feat, and you can even punt things away from you that run at you. That's all kinds of fun!

Just like in the movies, bunch of mooks rush the hero, and with a roar and a mighty swing, he knocks them back flat against the wall. Fun stuff!

woodenbandman
2009-01-20, 01:04 PM
If he takes a barbarian level, trade fast movement for pounce as per the Complete Champion alternate class feature Lion Totem.

Thrawn183
2009-01-20, 01:09 PM
I'm with Keld all the way. It's pretty tough to top the awesomeness that is Goliath Dungeoncrashers with Knockback. You still have crowd control but instead of the lameness that is trip (boring lame, not weak lame), you get to send people flying like bowling pins.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-20, 01:21 PM
In a low magic campaign you want to be magical.

So ... Psychic Warrior, Incarnum User, Binder or ToB class.

Dyllan
2009-01-20, 01:35 PM
I'm trying to move him away from casters, for storyline reasons mostly... but not forbidding them.

Knockback - I think he'll like that.

As for the Dungeonscape options, I don't think we have that book... but it might be worth picking up. If he doesn't go that way with it, I will just have to make that my backup character in the campaign I'm playing in (as opposed to DM'ing)...

-Dyllan

Douglas
2009-01-20, 01:38 PM
Warblade or Crusader. Both are fairly powerful without lots of optimization, are designed as primary melee combatants, and will give much more interesting and varied combat than a typical one trick Fighter build. Warblade has a few intelligence based class features but they're all more like nice extras than core essentials. Crusader technically has charisma as a secondary stat, but all it's used for is a smite once or (at very high levels) twice per day and a bonus on will saves.

Crusader is more tanky, but both are good at dishing out damage. If you specifically want healing to be item based only rather than that just being a consequence of having no divine or bard casters then you will want to ban either the Crusader or a number of the Devoted Spirit maneuvers, including the discipline's capstone.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-20, 01:45 PM
If someone ends up playing as a caster, would their lycanthrop form still force them to take Lycanthrop HDs? I know you were talking about dropping LA in the other thread (which would be wise to avoid annoying the players if they would end up being nerfed by it). Incdentally, did you decide how the players will get cursed yet?

Dyllan
2009-01-20, 02:23 PM
If someone ends up playing as a caster, would their lycanthrop form still force them to take Lycanthrop HDs? I know you were talking about dropping LA in the other thread (which would be wise to avoid annoying the players if they would end up being nerfed by it). Incdentally, did you decide how the players will get cursed yet?

They're all going to get cursed - I'm not sure if we'll have 3 or 4 PCs yet, as one of my players has to talk it over with his wife first. :-)

We're going to have one caster, a Battle Sorcerer (using the UA variant), and I plan to give him a 1 HD lycanthropy curse, and let him start out as level 3 (or equivalent). The others will start at level 1 and get a 3 HD lycanthropy curse, so after the lycanthropy everyone will be at the same level. I've let the Sorcerer in on what's happening, and he's okay with it. In fact, he chose to use a +3 (reduced to +2 as I decided to give everyone a +1 LA free) template - Half Dragon... I don't know what base character he's choosing yet. But, at level 4, he'll be casting at level 1... but he'll be able to handle himself in melee pretty well when he runs low on spells.

As if this wasn't crazy enough, while looking for adventures I could steal content from yesterday (I needed a good map for a church catacombs they will be raiding to get much of their healing gear and some items to raise dead with) I found out that wizards did a 3.5 conversion of Tomb of Horrors... so now I plan to run them through that when they get strong enough.

Maybe Tomb of Horrors + no divine casters is a bad idea... but it'll be fun.

Guess I got a bit off topic. But I do think I have some good advice to give the Goliath player now. We're gonna have a Half-dragon/unknown race Werebaboon, a Catfolk Rogue/Scout Wereleopard and a Goliath Fighter/whatever Were-black bear. If we DO have a fourth character, he's up in the air. But he can min-max with the best of them, so I won't need advice there. He's playing the Frenzied Beserker in the campaign I'm not DM'ing...

-Dyllan

PinkysBrain
2009-01-20, 09:35 PM
I'm trying to move him away from casters, for storyline reasons mostly... but not forbidding them.
I would not call Psychic Warrior, Incarnum User, Binder or ToB classes casters ... they are magic users though and magic users are stronger in low magic settings.

Assassin89
2009-01-20, 09:41 PM
One of the people in my D&D group plays a Goliath fighter with his dump stat in Wisdom, but I think I can set up the stats for your friend a little.
(before racial modifiers)
Strength 16
Dex 11
Con 15
Int 15 (allows combat expertise)
Wis 11
Cha 9

Lycanthromancer
2009-01-20, 10:02 PM
Technically half-dragons cannot be lycanthropes, RAW, but it IS your campaign, so you can do as you like.

I'm not even sure how they'd interact. Is the result a dragon, a humanoid, or a monstrous humanoid?

PinkysBrain
2009-01-20, 11:21 PM
They can both be inherited template, can't you just apply the lycanthrope template first?

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-21, 01:57 AM
Thanks for the clarification. It's good that you let the Battle Sorcerer in on the plan. In regards to cursing the group, how about if they end up drinking water which makes them lycanthropic? (An evil Druid could have cursed a pool of water in a forest).

Dyllan
2009-01-21, 08:22 AM
Well, the Battle Sorcerer player convinced me to let him be the non-lycanthrope in the party... he was already giving up a couple levels for his half-dragon template (remember, I gave them a free -1 LA), and didn't want to lose more for the template.

I didn't realize half-dragons couldn't be lycanthropes, actually... though had I thought about it, I would have. But, I would've ignored that rule anyway. :-)

The situation is going to be the party (and some NPCs, without the half dragon) fighting off a bunch of animals, with a two or three of those animals actually being were-whatevers. The PCs get bit, and the battle turns against them when the half-dragon shows up, breathes acid and scares off the normal animals. The were-whatevers flee with the animals, because they no longer have the advantage.

From there, I wing it. Party will find out, the hard way, that they've become lycanthropes (having them kill cattle and stuff, not people, at first at least). They should deduce the cause of the animal problems at that point, and they'll either do something about it, or not. They might even get caught (or framed) and blamed for the animal problems (them fighting against the animals was obviously a clever ruse). Then the rest of the campaign, they're trying to cure lycanthropy... and the half-dragon is still trying to figure out WHAT he is... dragons are very rare, and he is an orphan as far as he knows, so...

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-21, 08:48 AM
It is probably wise to let him off. What will you do if party members end up not getting infected, though? (You could always say "you got it by X", but that would be god-modding without any dice rolls being involved.

Epinephrine
2009-01-21, 09:37 AM
I like the idea of a swordsage, actually. Setting Sun could be a world of fun for a big goliath - tossing enemies around like toys. Diamond Mind for some big hits (concentration check to deal double damage, quadruple damage later), Stone Dragon to power through stuff/tank it up? His BAB would suffer a bit from the 3/4 progression, but keep pumping the strength and he'd do alright. Grabbing the lead minion by the neck and throwing him in a 60' line, scattering enemies like ten-pins? Just too cool.

There's even a dwarf prestige class, deepstone sentinel, which is pretty decent flavour for a goliath (being another race of stone). It'd let him do some amazing area control and call the bones of the earth to serve him.

Dyllan
2009-01-21, 10:37 AM
There's even a dwarf prestige class, deepstone sentinel, which is pretty decent flavour for a goliath (being another race of stone). It'd let him do some amazing area control and call the bones of the earth to serve him.

Where's that class from? He could always take that 3 level PrC in Races of Stone that lets you qualify for other Race specific things, like PrCs...

And as for if they don't get infected... we do have a precedent in this group for the DM rolling saves for the players if it's a save for something they shouldn't know about. They're supposed to believe these are natural animals - a save would tip them off.

And what's rolled behind the DM screen STAYS behind the DM screen.

Also, I'll have the lycanthropes take the feat that increases the DC of one ability by 2, to make it more believable. Remember, if you're the DM, it's not cheating... but you better have a VERY good reason to do it. In truth, I don't cheat often as DM, and when I do it's more often to help players (oh, that NPC cleric rolled a 4, not a 3, on his caster level check to use the scroll of true ress for you... luckily 4 was just enough) than against them. I only cheat against them when it is essential to the plot (like this).

-Dyllan

Keld Denar
2009-01-21, 10:39 AM
Not really advise for the Goliath, but for the Sorc instead. If he really wants to be 1/2 dragon, I'd suggest he goes Copper (line effect acid!) and nabs the Draconic Breath feat from one of the Dragon books (Draconomicon, Races of, or Dragon Magic, I forget). It changes his breath weapon from 1/day to 1/1d4 rounds. Then there are a BUNCH of breath spells in Spell Compendium like Blinding Breath and Dispeling Breath that would be really good for a Sorc. Heck, take Entangling Breath from Dragon Magic, and your Sorc will be a pretty good battlefield controller/disabler with only a hand full of spells, allowing him to spend more spells on utility/whatever!

Epinephrine
2009-01-21, 11:03 AM
Where's that class from? He could always take that 3 level PrC in Races of Stone that lets you qualify for other Race specific things, like PrCs...

It's a Tome of Battle (Book of Nine Swords) PrC for an initiator-type (maneuvers and so on).

The powers center around making yourself a mobile fortress essentially. Particularly nice with a reach weapon, IIRC. It's a 5 level PrC, and its powers are roughly:
- Make a defensive hill rise under you to fight from
- Come crashing down off this hill in a charge, releasing the earth in ripples than can knock people down, while adding to charge damage
- Use another stance while on the hill
- Root enemies to the ground with an attack ; Cause pillars of stone to rise out of the ground.
- Earthquake type effect in 60 foot radius of you, only affects enemies, knocking them down and dealing damage

Really nice area control for a fighter-type, but not the "rush into combat swinging" style of fighting. More of a deliberate advance that can't be stopped.

metalbear
2009-01-21, 02:34 PM
I have a suggestion if your players decides to go the dungeon crasher fighter substitution along with knock back. It is called the Shock Trooper tactical feat, and it allows you three different options.
-Directed Bull Rush: after a sucessful bull rush and charge, you may knock the target back as many squares to the side as you do back (diagonal bull rush).
-Domino Rush: when you knock an enemy back into another enemy. You then get a free trip attempt against both enemies without them getting a trip attempt against you.
-Headless charge: after a charge you power attack. Instead of subtracting bonus from the hit roll, you subtract from your AC.

This will make the Bull Rush fighter a bit more fun.

Dyllan
2009-01-21, 08:05 PM
Thanks for all the advice. Here's what I'm suggesting for him. He's taking first level Barbarian, Goliath substitution. He doens't plan to take more levels of Barbarian than that. Since he is doing Barbarian though, I'm going to have him become a Were-dire badger (they get rage 1/day... and I'm decided to let him use that outside of Badger form... sort of a house rule... that'll give him 2 rages a day). Of course, he doesn't know that.

I'm suggesting he take Improved Bull Rush, Knockback and Raging Bull Rush first level. With that, he could rage, attack his enemy and knock him back 5 feet, and prone. If he did it from 5', knocking the guy back to 10', he'd still be in a threatened area, and standing would provoke an attack of opportunity from the Goliath, who would then knock him back 5' and knock him down again. Maybe that's TOO good of a combo at first level, but with 2 flaws... I'm gonna have to send some tough stuff against this guy.

As for later, I'm considering allowing Large and in Charge from Draconomicon. Of course, he'd only be able to use it while Raging (or if someone cast enlarge person on him), but I'm pretty sure there's errata allowing for taking feats that you only sometimes qualify for, and that they'd only take affect while you were meeting the prerequisites.

He already plans to take Endurance and Diehard... personally I think he way overvalues Diehard, but it's his character. If he's doing that, I figure Steadfast Determination is a no brainer. That should be enough to get him started, I think.

Thanks for all the advice. At this rate, I think he'll be in double digits before he feels the need to take something other than fighter (ie, before he's running low on feats). He doesn't plan to take the weapon focus tree at all.

-Dyllan