PDA

View Full Version : Need Help killing a Large Iron Golem with my Duskblade.



Roythebattousai
2009-01-20, 02:09 PM
Of course, I have other party-members to help if necessary, but it's my nature to want to do it all by myself. :]

We have a Cleric, A Wizard, a Wild Mage, a Rogue and me, the Duskblade.

We're all only 5th level, except for the Rogue, 4th.

I see that Rust magic is the only real way to defeat an Iron Golem, since it's immune to Spells and has an AC of 30...

Any ideas, since I don't have that?

Thrawn183
2009-01-20, 02:15 PM
At your level?

Trick it to follow you onto a really really really high bridge and destroy the bridge while its on it.

You can't take this thing on head-to-head. You're going to have to be creative if you want to stand a chance.

Keld Denar
2009-01-20, 02:22 PM
Ouch, an Iron Golem should slaughter a 5th level party up and down the floor.

Immune to Magic isn't absolute. Its basically the equivalent of SR=Infinity. Thus, if you chuck a fireball at an Iron Golem, and you make an SR check, and no matter how high you roll, its always lower than infinity. BUT, if you cast a spell that doesn't allow SR, like Glitterdust, Grease, or Lesser X Orb, then you skip the step where you roll against SR and make with the winning. In fact, Grease is the single most potent spell to use against like, 90% of Golems. The duration is short, so you gotta pack a few of them, and casting them from a Wand or Scroll isn't very efficient because you have to do it EVERY round. Golems typically have terribad Ref saves, bad Dex scores, and 0 ranks in Balance, so getting out of a Grease pile is virtually impossible for a Golem. Once you've got it floored, stay out of range and pelt it with Lesser Orbs or use a bow with Adamantine arrows.

Thats really the best way to do it.

Starbuck_II
2009-01-20, 02:36 PM
Duskblade spells that can harm an iron golem:
1) Acid Splash
2) Kelgore's Fire Bolt
3) Melf's Acid Arrow

None are Arcane Channeling material: but eh.

I don't have my PHB 2: Does Blades of Blood have SR?

Keld Denar
2009-01-20, 02:47 PM
Blade of Blood
Saving Throw: None
SR: No

Bingo

Oh crap....reading further gives us:
"The next time this weapon strikes a living creature, <snip>"

Lame, doesn't work on Golems. Soooooo close.

Blackfang108
2009-01-20, 03:00 PM
Duskblade spells that can harm an iron golem:
1) Acid Splash
2) Kelgore's Fire Bolt
3) Melf's Acid Arrow

None are Arcane Channeling material: but eh.

I don't have my PHB 2: Does Blades of Blood have SR?

Arcane Channeling is useless in this instance, because you still have to hit the thing with your weapon for it to go off.

Thankfully, it's touch AC is ABYSMAL(8).

With an EPL(effective party level) of about 5, a 13 CR creature isn't something you're going to survive fighting toe-to-toe in a group. You cannot solo this thing that way. you'll need to use the terrain to your advantage.

It has DR15/Adamintine, effectively SCREWING Melee at your level.(unless you've got a weapon of adimantine.) you need to rely on touch attacks to do anything, here.

DON"T USE ANY FIRE SPELLS.

It will HEAL the golem instead.

If you have Energy Substitution(Electricity), you can still use Kelgore's FB, but otherwise...

Acid is your way to go, but you don't have enough spells at your level to kill it on your own.

If you have an adamantine weapon, you can TRY to kill it, but you'll run out of True-strikes before you get it halfway down.

Use your head and the terrain. Your character probably isn't suicidally valorious. (right)

Dyllan
2009-01-20, 03:17 PM
Is this a situation where you can prepare and ambush the golem, or a situation where you have to survive as it's attacking you?

If it's the former, have the full casters prepare lots of grease, keep the golem pinned down and fill it with every ranged attack (spell with no SR or adamantine arrows) you can get off. When you run out of offensive power or grease, run. If you can get away, rest and return, you'll wear it down in a few days.

If it's jumped you... just skip to the run part. Throw anything that'll slow it you might have so you can escape. Remember, you don't have to outrun the golem, you just have to outrun your party.

-Dyllan

Darrin
2009-01-20, 04:11 PM
Take 60 ft. of rope. Cut it into three 20-ft lengths. Create three lassos (BoED, p. 34). It's an exotic weapon, but hitting with it is only a touch attack.

Hand out the lassos to your companions, and hit the golem with three of them. Each lasso that hits imposes a -2 to attacks a -4 penalty to Dexterity (untyped penalty, so they should stack). If all three lassos hit, the golem's Dex of 9 is reduced below zero, and he can no longer move, which means he can no longer make the DC 23 strength check to break free. Dispose of the now-immobile golem any way you see fit. Even if you don't get all three, the golem has to use a full-round action to break free.

Dyllan
2009-01-20, 04:15 PM
Take 60 ft. of rope. Cut it into three 20-ft lengths. Create three lassos (BoED, p. 34). It's an exotic weapon, but hitting with it is only a touch attack.

Hand out the lassos to your companions, and hit the golem with three of them. Each lasso that hits imposes a -2 to attacks a -4 penalty to Dexterity (untyped penalty, so they should stack). If all three lassos hit, the golem's Dex of 9 is reduced below zero, and he can no longer move, which means he can no longer make the DC 23 strength check to break free. Dispose of the now-immobile golem any way you see fit. Even if you don't get all three, the golem has to use a full-round action to break free.

Great rules lawyering, but if your DM allows that he really should be shot (or have enough lassos on him to render him immobile). Untyped penalties from the same source don't stack though, and you COULD argue that 3 different lassos are still the same source, just as multiple copies of a spell don't stack.

Or, the DM could just say that no, three ropes don't become strong enough to hold a Golem just because they're shaped like lassos.

Keld Denar
2009-01-20, 04:29 PM
Penalties should never be able to reduce a stat below 0. An Exhausted Entangled foe hit with a Ray of Clumsiness should still have a Dex of 1. Now, if you hit that foe with a Numbing Sphere and did 1 point of Dex damage, that should take them out, but alone, stacking on lasso penalties or whatever should paralyze someone (what happens when your Dex=0).

That said, only Ray of Clumsiness(and Enfeeblement) has the clause in it that prevents Dex(and Str) from being lowered to less than 1. While it sets a precident, I'm not really sure whether or not you could extrapolate that to include all penalties by RAW, but as a DM, that is how I would rule it.

Reverent-One
2009-01-20, 04:46 PM
Penalties should never be able to reduce a stat below 0. An Exhausted Entangled foe hit with a Ray of Clumsiness should still have a Dex of 1. Now, if you hit that foe with a Numbing Sphere and did 1 point of Dex damage, that should take them out, but alone, stacking on lasso penalties or whatever should paralyze someone (what happens when your Dex=0).

I disagree, it makes sense that enough lassos would make movement impossible. Not knowing exactly what all the other ways there are to give penalties to stats though, I'm not sure about that rule overall.


That said, only Ray of Clumsiness(and Enfeeblement) has the clause in it that prevents Dex(and Str) from being lowered to less than 1. While it sets a precident, I'm not really sure whether or not you could extrapolate that to include all penalties by RAW, but as a DM, that is how I would rule it.

And I'd think that the clause sets precedent that you normally can reduce a stat below 0, and Ray of X is an exception. Otherwise, why would they have to state that specfically for the spell?

Keld Denar
2009-01-20, 04:59 PM
Well, because its a copy/paste from Ray of Enfeeblement, which was around in the PHB back in the day when there weren't a lot of things that gave Str penalties.

And having a Dex of 0 doesn't make you unable to move...it PARALYZES YOU. You are helpless, and can be CDGed. I've never seen a person paralyzed because a couple people threw ropes over them. Now, a person throughly tied up by a skilled Use Rope check, yea, they are helpless, though still not paralyzed. Thats just wierd.

Eldariel
2009-01-20, 05:02 PM
You have a Wizard. A character with Fly and a stack of Acid-type spells and those Acid Flasks or whatever (mundane items, just stack up on them). As long as you stay high enough to not be hit by its breath weapon while it's jumping, you should be fine. Other than that, throwing flasks at it while using your (hopefully) superior speed to stay out of melee range (never let it close to 40'; that means it can charge and you're dead) and drop it before you get fatigued and die (probably eventual Con-checks much like for long distance running). You can't take it alone. Your party can relatively easily though. As said, Grease is a really solid spell especially since it has no Balance and crap for Dex. It has annoyingly high Ref-save (although a level 5 Wizard should have DC 16-17 already), but it can still fail its balance checks after that. If you have a stack of acid flasks, it should die to sufficient bombardment aided by Lesser Orbs of Acid and whatever Acid-spells you can cast.

One acid flask deals 1d6 damage, so you need an average of 37 flasks to kill it. That's 7 hits from each character. They can be thrown 50' away which is far enough to be safe from the immediate charge of the Golem.

Roythebattousai
2009-01-20, 05:43 PM
Okay, so now I think it's just gonna be an attempt to stick it to the DM.

I think he wants us dead, but he's cool enough not to do it in a completely ridiculous way... so... I'm going to fight to my last breath.

Now, instead of Magic resistance, it gets an Anti-Magic Barrier.

How does one break one of those? XD

AslanCross
2009-01-20, 06:19 PM
Maybe he's just railroading you into not going in that direction. XP

But yeah, there's no real way you can kill it if you aren't already prepared for it. I suggest using the environment to find a way to destroy/disable it or otherwise prevent it from ever bothering you again. The presence of any bottomless chasms might help.

ChaosDefender24
2009-01-20, 06:46 PM
I agree with everyone who said "use the environment."

You guys obviously can't kill the iron golem on a straight fight. It's clear to everyone here, and it's clear to your DM too.

Either he's an idiot, or he's expecting you to think (much more likely). Because the PC's have something that the iron golem does not have - the capacity to think.

How does one exploit this? It all depends on your environment, and the programming of the golem. For instance, there's a well-known story of a DM who unsuspectingly threw pitted two iron golems against a 1st-level party containing a dragonfire adept, with the intent of making the party run away. The golems were programmed to chase after the party, and there was plenty of room to run.

What ended up happening was that the DFA repeatedly used its entangling breath while moving away, so that the iron golem couldn't catch up to him. Slowly but surely, the DFA wore down and killed the CR 13 encounter!

Obviously, this wouldn't have worked if the golem was just programmed to guard the room and stop chasing after that point. However, if the golem is programmed to attack only to a certain parameter, the PC's could simply slowly snipe out the golem from afar. Or you could be like Celia and lure the golem off of a cliff. If the DM intends for you to kill the iron golem by using your head, he should have something somewhere that will allow you to trick the golem into an hero or otherwise being helpless, even if you have to think about it to a good degree in order to find out what that thing is. And if you're creative, you might even come up with something the DM didn't think of!

Curmudgeon
2009-01-20, 07:03 PM
With adequate shopping opportunities, you can get wands prepared at any caster level and with metamagic feats pre-applied (as long as the result is still a 4th level spell or lower). So you can get a wand of Widened Grease, which will cover 4x the area, priced as a 4th level spell and lasting 1 round; or pay more and get a higher CL for longer duration (which you will want so you can do things other than just keep it in place).

Golems don't think, so they won't try to avoid a greased area or difficult terrain. They also have sucky Balance checks, so that single wand is enough to let you whittle the golem down from a distance.

chiasaur11
2009-01-20, 07:35 PM
Hmmm....
A huge, nearly invincible iron construct bent on destruction...

Have you tried convincing him he's Superman and thus should fly into space to destroy an atom bomb?

Roythebattousai
2009-01-20, 08:00 PM
Okay, so here's what I'm thinking:

The Wizards Grease the floor in his path. He slips, or just slows down. Whatever.

Either way, we then get the (I forgot to mention there is a) Druid and the Cleric to cast stone shape at the stone(hopefully) ground below him, and make it into a cage, that encases him.

Even with his 30 STR, it would still take around 10 turns for it to break free. Or a DC 30 roll. Which is basically a 20, even with STR bonuses.

Then... when it's encased.... we run... and hopefully devise a plan to actually destroy it.

Any Ideas past that? Can I kill it more easily when it is encased in stone?

Oslecamo
2009-01-20, 08:12 PM
Any Ideas past that? Can I kill it more easily when it is encased in stone?

1-Nevermind the cage, make a hole. A big one.
2-Fill the hole with as much acid as you can.
3-Remember the DM that creatures covered by acid take 12d6 damage per turn.
4-?
5-Profit.

Anyway, altough the iron golem is a very tough nut, it also has some glaring weakness. Most of them have already been presented but I think people forgot the main one:
20 foot base speed, no ranged attacks and can't run. So you it can't really kill you as long as you keep running like chickens. Shoot orb, run away, rinse and repeat untill it dies.

Keld Denar
2009-01-20, 08:15 PM
Go re-read Stone Shape. You have to actually manipulate it with your hands. Thus, messin around with the stone underneath the Golem will surely get you AoOed into a less than consious state. You could use it to prepare a trap involving a large pit, a Greased patch, a sharp corner, and a good illusion. Get the golem to chase you, run toward the trap. Wizard casts the Grease, then a Silent Image. You take the corner and duck into a cubby (possibly created by Stone Shape) and when the golem comes around the corner, it sees the illusion, runs past you, slips on the Grease, and falls into the pit. If its deep enough that it can't jump or climb out right away, another Stone Shape can cover it up.

Mad props though, if instead of covering the golem, you pull off its mask to reveil Mr. Jenkin's, the keep's butler, who is trying to scare people away so he can break into the ancient vault beneath the castle, and he would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for those meddling kids.

Starbuck_II
2009-01-20, 08:16 PM
Okay, so here's what I'm thinking:

The Wizards Grease the floor in his path. He slips, or just slows down. Whatever.

Either way, we then get the (I forgot to mention there is a) Druid and the Cleric to cast stone shape at the stone(hopefully) ground below him, and make it into a cage, that encases him.

Even with his 30 STR, it would still take around 10 turns for it to break free. Or a DC 30 roll. Which is basically a 20, even with STR bonuses.

Then... when it's encased.... we run... and hopefully devise a plan to actually destroy it.

Any Ideas past that? Can I kill it more easily when it is encased in stone?
Have the Wild Mage/Wizard buy a scroll of Rusting Grasp
or
Hire a pet Rust Monster.

Does the Wizard have Electric zap? Cantrip that does 1d3 electric damage. Won't hurt the golem as it has SR, but slows it for 3 rounds no save.

Then pepper him with Non-magical fire (Iron Golems only heal magic fire). Like torches and stuff.

Summon Monster/Ally 3(before the battle)Fire creatures.
Hell Hound, Small Fire Elemental, 1d3 Med Spiders (they can use web on the golem to weaken him like entangle), a Thoqqua, 1d3 Fire Elementals, etc.

Fire that isn't magic works. I sugget Spiders because they rule with Web attack.

Darrin
2009-01-20, 11:13 PM
And having a Dex of 0 doesn't make you unable to move...it PARALYZES YOU. You are helpless, and can be CDGed. I've never seen a person paralyzed because a couple people threw ropes over them. Now, a person throughly tied up by a skilled Use Rope check, yea, they are helpless, though still not paralyzed. Thats just wierd.

Hmm. I was going to say there was a bit of a problem there, since constructs are immune to paralysis. But after checking with the SRD, it doesn't actually mention paralysis at all:

"Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless."

Also, there's nothing in there about ability score penalties stopping at 1, so by RAW multiple lassos/nets should render most opponents motionless and helpless.



Now, instead of Magic resistance, it gets an Anti-Magic Barrier.

How does one break one of those? XD

Barrier, not a Field? Hmm... the trump card for AMF is usually Iron Heart Surge, but I'm not sure if that works on a barrier... also needs a duration, I think. Rod of Cancelation, maybe?

Sounds like your DM may be intentionally trying to herd you away from something. Might be a good idea to go off, level up a bit and come back to the golem later.

Ponce
2009-01-20, 11:26 PM
Rust Cubes (Complete Scoundrel) cost 100gp each and do 1d6 damage a round for 3 rounds to metal objects and creatures (ignoring hardness) and only require a touch attack to hit AND can be loaded into a sling for greater range. Might take a while, but it'd work. It will cost about 1300gp though.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-01-21, 02:08 AM
Did you say your DM gave it an Anti-Magic Field? If that's the case, just run away. Right now. Thing's invulnerable, but very slow.

Shocking Grasp will slow it, but you have to be right next to it and get inevitably pummeled on its turn. You can also hit it with a True Strike-buffed attack, and deal zero damage since you don't have an adamantine weapon.

Run away.

Kyouhen
2009-01-21, 03:05 AM
I like the idea of the Stone Shape spell. With a bit of testing you could trap the golem pretty easily too, if you have a chance to prepare ahead of time. Stone Shape or dig a really deep hole and make it so the area around the hole slopes into it. Stand with the hole between you and the golem and be ready to Grease the slope if the golem's smart enough to not jump in the hole. If you can get the hole deep enough for it to take fall damage you could rig it up so there's a series of notches so the golem can climb out, then grease the top part of said notches as the golem gets up there so he can go falling down again. Rinse lather and repeat until the golem shatters at the bottom.

Edit:
Better idea. Have a ramp or stairway circle the edge of the hole instead of the notches. When the golem gets to the top grease it and watch the golem go tumbling back down. You're bound to get more damage in that way. :smallbiggrin:

Jack_Simth
2009-01-21, 08:20 AM
can't run
The restriction that critters without a Con score can't run was removed in the transition to 3.5. If you have a move score in excess of 20, this can still work, though.

Stock up on Flasks of Acid (10 gp, deals 1d6 damage as a touch attack, also does 1 point of splash damage to those adjacent to the target). Ideally, you'll want to get a horse or something, and throw the flasks of Acid from the back of the horse. A light horse is ideal, but a Heavy Horse will work just fine. You throw acid, the horse double-moves (80 or 100 feet) (in that order). You'll miss a lot (moving penalties, possibly range penalties unless you cut it close), but with enough of the flasks you'll win unless the DM throws something new at you (acid resistance, letting the Golem's DR stop energy damage (by default, it doesn't), giving the golem a boost in speed, or letting the golem's magic resistance/antimagic barrier stop the *non-magical* alchemical substance, giving the golem fast healing, et cetera) ... but otherwise you can take it down if you're willing to spend about 1,000 gp on it (75 gp for a light horse, 10 gp for a saddle, about 900 gp on about 90 Flasks of Acid - have your fellow party members carry most the acid - at 1 pound each, they get heavy, and you can't afford the horse getting encumbered enough to slow down). It'll be a dice marathon, though.

Malacode
2009-01-21, 08:54 AM
Sounds to me like the DM doesn't want to stop you from going somewhere, more like that he's being a jerk. This guide here (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dkb1/dnd/tarrasque.txt), while being about the Tarrasque, might give you a few ideas. Just ignore the "Drown it" one, or replace the water with acid as someone else suggested. Also, be aware a few of these requre obscene wealth or spells per day. I personally like method 5, if you can find 50 bards with Inspire Courage, you're golden. This is the plan:


Bards have an ability called "Inspire Courage" which grants all who hear it a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls. This ability is usable even at Level 1. So, get an army of 50 bards with slings and march, singing, on the Tarrasque. Each of your bards has +50 to-hit and deals something like
1d4+50 damage. Since your weapons aren't magical, Tarrasque's damage reduction will ignore the first 25 points of damage, but he still takes at least 25 damage per hit. 50 hits at 25 damage each is 1250 damage total, which puts him way into the negative hit points in one round.
Obviously, the lesser damage reduction and HP of the Iron Golem will mean it goes down a lot faster.
Best of all? It costs 50gp to do. One day of work from a bard will cost you 1gp. It's the cheapest method. Main problem is the AMF your GM has put in place. Maybe substitute 150 level 1 fighters. Again, cost is 1gp/person. That'll take it down.

Starbuck_II
2009-01-21, 09:03 AM
Sounds to me like the DM doesn't want to stop you from going somewhere, more like that he's being a jerk. This guide here (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dkb1/dnd/tarrasque.txt), while being about the Tarrasque, might give you a few ideas. Just ignore the "Drown it" one, or replace the water with acid as someone else suggested. Also, be aware a few of these requre obscene wealth or spells per day. I personally like method 5, if you can find 50 bards with Inspire Courage, you're golden. This is the plan:

Obviously, the lesser damage reduction and HP of the Iron Golem will mean it goes down a lot faster.
Best of all? It costs 50gp to do. One day of work from a bard will cost you 1gp. It's the cheapest method. Main problem is the AMF your GM has put in place. Maybe substitute 150 level 1 fighters. Again, cost is 1gp/person. That'll take it down.

Did the writer odf that guide/topic realize Bards use Moral bonuses?
Thus, they don't stack!

Kyouhen
2009-01-21, 03:45 PM
Did the writer odf that guide/topic realize Bards use Moral bonuses?
Thus, they don't stack!

Simulacrum also won't let you create a copy of a creature with more than double your caster level in HD, which means his idea of copying a Terrasque while level 13 doesn't work either.

Jack_Simth
2009-01-21, 05:33 PM
This guide here (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dkb1/dnd/tarrasque.txt), while being about the Tarrasque, might give you a few ideas. That particular guide was written for 3.0, I think - quite a few of the things in there don't work in 3.5.