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Kurald Galain
2009-01-20, 03:55 PM
I just noticed a new bunch of 4E errata is out, and available on the WOTC website. I suppose that was somewhat overdue, and I've seen certain "zomg! overpwoerd!" threads that claim more errata is needed. YMMV.

I found a few useful clarifications, and nothing particularly shocking, except for this one:


Veteran's Armor [Deletion]
Adventurer's Vault, page 55
Remove the item's power.


Soooo... no more extra dailies, then?

RTGoodman
2009-01-20, 04:03 PM
HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/updates)'s the link if anyone needs help finding it. Seeing as how the date on the them is January 20th, I guess they were just updated today.

I haven't looked over it yet, but I have to say, the "Remove the item's power" is the funniest errata I've ever seen. :smallbiggrin: I guess they realized after all this time that, in fact, it was pretty broken.


EDIT: Also, they changed the Spellscarred powers so that they actually WORK now. They added a paragraph that explains that you can use any implement from your class or that you gained use of through a feat for any spellscarred powers.

Saph
2009-01-20, 04:27 PM
Glanced through the PHB errata. There seem two significant changes (though if the summary is right, they were made last year):

Stealth now requires superior cover or total concealment to use in combat, making stealth sneak attacks much more difficult.
Brew Potion has gone from level 5 to level 1, meaning wizards and clerics can start with it as one of their free level 1 rituals. I guess that makes Ritual Casting very slightly more useful. :)

- Saph

Izmir Stinger
2009-01-20, 04:34 PM
Stealth now requires superior cover or total concealment to use in combat, making stealth sneak attacks much more difficult.

Guess they would have to be ranged sneak attacks, unless you are fighting in the dark and can sneak up to the edge of someone's light source and charge them.

Innis Cabal
2009-01-20, 04:43 PM
I thought 4th ed got rid of overpowered stuff. Guess it was wise of me not to invest in it

Hzurr
2009-01-20, 05:31 PM
I thought 4th ed got rid of overpowered stuff. Guess it was wise of me not to invest in it

Hmm...I suspect this post might have been meant for edition flaming, but I'll answer. 4E had some things that were overpowered and needed errata (although not nearly enough for a 4.5E), but the vast majority of the changes are minor and don't really affect much, with a few tweaking here and there to poorly worded powers

RTGoodman
2009-01-20, 05:36 PM
Hmm...I suspect this post might have been meant for edition flaming, but I'll answer. 4E had some things that were overpowered and needed errata (although not nearly enough for a 4.5E), but the vast majority of the changes are minor and don't really affect much, with a few tweaking here and there to poorly worded powers

I'm not sure if Innis is flaming or trying to be sarcastic, but yeah, like you said, what little stuff has been found to be broken is usually fixed pretty soon. The fabled "Orcus-Killer" build, for instance, bit the dust not long after the game came out because of errata, and one of the most overpowered racial abilities (the Oversized trait) is being phased out already anyway. (Minotaurs lost it via Dragon Magazine, and I ASSUME Bugbears will lose it eventually, too.)

Tengu_temp
2009-01-20, 05:39 PM
I thought 4th ed got rid of overpowered stuff. Guess it was wise of me not to invest in it

The difference is the amount of it (way, waaaaaaaay less) and the fact that various erratas balance is easily, while most of 3.5 overpower material is built directly into the system and you can't remove it without reworking most of the game's mechanics.

On actual topic, I'll miss pre-errata Veteran's Armor, but mostly because one of my characters is using it - I admit that it's balanced now, as even without its daily power it's worth being 1 level above normal magic armor.

Innis Cabal
2009-01-20, 05:43 PM
No, not flaming, just a general comment of relief

You guys can enjoy your game, nothing I can say or do will change your mind on it. Its all abotu having fun ya?

RTGoodman
2009-01-20, 05:49 PM
On actual topic, I'll miss pre-errata Veteran's Armor, but mostly because one of my characters is using it - I admit that it's balanced now, as even without its daily power it's worth being 1 level above normal magic armor.

Yeah, it's still good (especially as a level 2 item). You know, it'd probably be balanced if you bumped it up to Level 3 or 4 and changed the Daily power to let you recover an Encounter attack power instead of a Daily. Probably Level 4 if you allowed it for all armors, or Level 3 if only for certain ones (Chain, Scale, and Plate?). Or something like that - I haven't looked at items enough yet to do any real homebrewing of them.

its_all_ogre
2009-01-20, 06:12 PM
i thought the general consensus of action points spent on doing anything other than hurting your foes was a tactical blunder?

never found the power to be overpowered, in fact i took the armour for it's usual ability and never used this power.
mind you in a party with a taclord and a reourceful warlord with +6 int/cha you really wanted that extra attack.
+2 to hit and +10 damage on a hit or 6 temp hit points if you miss? yes please!

kjones
2009-01-20, 06:32 PM
They didn't clarify the range of Commander's Strike, by any chance?

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-20, 06:40 PM
They didn't clarify the range of Commander's Strike, by any chance?

No, but we already know the correct interpretation: you both have to be in reach.

And they changed Blazing Rorn the Fury into a solo brute, but left "see also blazing action" dangling there... pointing, bewilderingly, at nothing.

RTGoodman
2009-01-20, 06:40 PM
They didn't clarify the range of Commander's Strike, by any chance?

No, because it's not really a mistake. Both you and your ally have to be within melee weapon range of the target. Don't think of it as you saying "Hey, hit that guy" and your ally doing it, but instead you're distracting your foe with your weapon and telling your ally "Hey, hit that guy while I have him distracted."


EDIT: Oh, the ninjas...

Izmir Stinger
2009-01-20, 06:48 PM
Stealth now requires superior cover or total concealment to use in combat, making stealth sneak attacks much more difficult.

I just read it. This isn't as much of a nerf as I thought. You only need superior cover or total concealment to hide. You can remain hidden with partial concealment or cover. Also, you can hide without superior/total cover once per encounter by using the bluff skill.


Brew Potion has gone from level 5 to level 1, meaning wizards and clerics can start with it as one of their free level 1 rituals. I guess that makes Ritual Casting very slightly more useful. :)

No it doesn't. The ritual allows you to create potions of your level or lower, and basic healing potions are lvl 5 items so you can't use it till level 5. Somebody screwed up when they wrote that errata.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-20, 06:56 PM
No it doesn't. The ritual allows you to create potions of your level or lower, and basic healing potions are lvl 5 items so you can't use it till level 5. Somebody screwed up when they wrote that errata.

AV has lower-level potions.

Izmir Stinger
2009-01-20, 07:32 PM
AV has lower-level potions.

You are right. There is exactly one level 4 potion in there. So it is only a useless ritual for 3 levels rather than 4.

Swooper
2009-01-20, 07:38 PM
...one of the most overpowered racial abilities (the Oversized trait) is being phased out already anyway. (Minotaurs lost it via Dragon Magazine, and I ASSUME Bugbears will lose it eventually, too.)
*looks it up*

...This is what you 4E folks call overpowered? It's basically 4E Monkey Grip, which is notoriously a trap of a feat. :smallconfused: I know weapon damage scales a bit more in 4E with the n[W]+stuff powers, but... huh.

ZeroNumerous
2009-01-20, 07:39 PM
*looks it up*

...This is what you 4E folks call overpowered? It's basically 4E Monkey Grip, which is notoriously a trap of a feat. :smallconfused: I know weapon damage scales a bit more in 4E with the n[W]+stuff powers, but... huh.

'Cept a Minotaur/Bugbear gets no penalty to go with it. Personally, I see no difference as it requires a d12 weapon to get an extra weapon die out of it.

Artanis
2009-01-20, 07:41 PM
i thought the general consensus of action points spent on doing anything other than hurting your foes was a tactical blunder?
The problem is that using an action point to regain a daily is hurting your foes, it just takes slightly longer.

At low levels, you have so few dailies that it can be worth it, especially if said daily is very powerful. And it's not like you lose a turn, you simply fail to gain an extra one.

As levels go up, dailies get stronger and stronger, to the point where giving up an action to use a daily again becomes a net gain in terms of damage. There's powers out there that can do 7[w]+stat damage. And even the nerfed version of Blade Cascade can hit 10[w]+(5*STR).

Tengu_temp
2009-01-20, 07:56 PM
*looks it up*

...This is what you 4E folks call overpowered? It's basically 4E Monkey Grip, which is notoriously a trap of a feat. :smallconfused: I know weapon damage scales a bit more in 4E with the n[W]+stuff powers, but... huh.

Monkey Grip is a trap only because it gives you -2 to attack, you know - if it didn't, it'd be a good feat.

RTGoodman
2009-01-20, 08:05 PM
*looks it up*

...This is what you 4E folks call overpowered? It's basically 4E Monkey Grip, which is notoriously a trap of a feat. :smallconfused: I know weapon damage scales a bit more in 4E with the n[W]+stuff powers, but... huh.

Well, the Oversized mechanic isn't the MOST broken thing ever, but it still makes those races strictly BETTER than other races for classes that rely on weapons. Especially with weapons like the Executioner's Axe (normally 1d12 Brutal 2), which becomes 2d6 Brutal 2. If I'm doing my math right, that's statistically the same as 2d4 + 4, meaning your average damage jumps from 7.5 to 9.5 on 1[W] powers. On 7[W], it changes from 52.5 to 66.5. AND those races that had/have Oversized get bonuses to necessary stats for weapon-wielders (especially as Rogues, Fighters, and Warlords).

Aron Times
2009-01-20, 09:45 PM
"Overpowered" in 4E is nothing spectacular in 3E. Even the Blood Mage, which is generally considered to be stupidly powerful, is nothing compared to the Batman Wizard.

KKL
2009-01-21, 03:50 AM
I thought 4th ed got rid of overpowered stuff. Guess it was wise of me not to invest in it

eh wot, your statement confuses me. Could you elaborate?

Izmir Stinger
2009-01-21, 09:17 AM
Everything is overpowered in 4E, and therefore nothing is. First level characters are badass, and it just goes up from there. Everyone feels powerful, and nobody is overpowered. All they have to do is just weed out a few Ultra-Overpowered things, like that Veteran's armor.

The oversized racial feature is definitely a candidate for this category, but as it stands you can only get it with a monster race. DMs are under no obligation to allow allow any race and in fact, with the so-called "monster" races I think the literature subtlety discourages allowing them.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-21, 09:40 AM
Everything is overpowered in 4E, and therefore nothing is. First level characters are badass, and it just goes up from there.
Sure, if you consider "having trouble taking down a bunch of goblins" to be badass :smallbiggrin:

It would be more accurate to say that "nothing is overpowered in 4E, and therefore things that are slightly more powerful are considered massively overpowered by some". In terms of power level, even at level 30, 4E can't hold a candle to Exalted, or Amber DRP, or for that matter 3E. Of course, none of those three can be considered "balanced" by any stretch of the word, but that isn't their goal.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-21, 11:01 AM
Are these erratas printed in future printings of the books?

Oslecamo
2009-01-21, 12:07 PM
Everything is overpowered in 4E, and therefore nothing is. First level characters are badass, and it just goes up from there.

Actually, no. Characters start quite good, but then the power growth slugs down and by level 30 you're hardly more badass than level 1. They are dealing more damage and have more life and defenses, but little more. You're still just unleashing one attack per turn by yourself, and not even all your awesomess has managed to atract a single cohort to serve you. You actually forgot most of what you learned during your career for Vecna's sake!

In the other D&D editions when you reached such high levels you would be comanding yourself hordes of minions, you could breack trough walls, you would be unleashing flurries of attacks to make mincemeat of your oponents, you would be able to fly all day long, grow in size, you would slowly become something truly akin to a god. Heck, even the 3.X monk becomes stupidly fast and eventually can jump on clouds, while the fighter is taming purple wurms to serve as his mounts.

Sure, there were balance problems, but Wotc didn't really bother to make much errata. 3.5 itself broke as many things as they solved from 3.0. One can clearly see however that in 4e Wotc is killing all broken combinations as soon as they flourish. But this also leads to a game where character creation is that much limited. Wanna make an agile swashbuclker? Play rogue if it's one handed, play ranger if it's two handed. No, you haven't got any other choice. Wich is quite good when my brain is feeling lazy, but not so much when I want to be surfing over a custom tank while shooting a hand crossbow in one hand and swininging a rapier in the other.

Artanis
2009-01-21, 12:47 PM
eh wot, your statement confuses me. Could you elaborate?
It looked to me like an attempt to start an edition war. I could be wrong though, what with text not conveying tone.

Mando Knight
2009-01-21, 01:11 PM
Actually, no. Characters start quite good, but then the power growth slugs down and by level 30 you're hardly more badass than level 1. They are dealing more damage and have more life and defenses, but little more. You're still just unleashing one attack per turn by yourself, and not even all your awesomess has managed to atract a single cohort to serve you. You actually forgot most of what you learned during your career for Vecna's sake!

Did you happen to forget Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies? Guys who used to lie on the ground after getting knocked around are now capable of fighting past the limit. You laughed at the man who chose the burdensome plate armor... but now you cannot even pierce his skin. You hunt gods, and they fear you. You have a leather wallet that you convince some random thug at a diner to give back to you. The abilities you acquired while fighting years ago have been surpassed by the ability to crawl along slick walls and burn the Red Dragon. You don't need the old powers. Your new ones do the same thing... but better.


Wich is quite good when my brain is feeling lazy, but not so much when I want to be surfing over a custom tank while shooting a hand crossbow in one hand and swininging a rapier in the other.

Martial Power: Two-Fisted Shooter feat. Hand Crossbow becomes an off-hand weapon with free reloading. Take any of a number of powers that have the Melee or Ranged keywords.

Asbestos
2009-01-21, 01:12 PM
It looked to me like an attempt to start an edition war. I could be wrong though, what with text not conveying tone.

Well, if that was its purpose it certainly worked, or at least someone bit... see above.

Er... someone above that asked if they were going to print errated books. I doubt it. Awesomely though, they will be releasing dragon/dungeon as a collection at some point. Or rather the 'best of Dragon 2009' or whatever as a 160 page hardcover out in September, if you want to be exact. Given what's been coming out in Dragon, I think it might be a 'must-have' when it comes out. Its the closest thing I can think of being an 'errated book' since it will likely have the full, revised stats for Minos, Gnolls, Warforged, and whatever else they come out with in Dragon.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-21, 01:15 PM
You hunt gods, and they fear you.
Let me put it like this: 4E ends with the player characters fighting gods. Exalted starts that way.


(also, for all its vaunted epicness, you'd be hard pressed to find anything at all in 4E that is capable of affecting something more than 100 meters away from you...)

Asbestos
2009-01-21, 01:29 PM
Let me put it like this: 4E ends with the player characters fighting gods. Exalted starts that way.


(also, for all its vaunted epicness, you'd be hard pressed to find anything at all in 4E that is capable of affecting something more than 100 meters away from you...)

I think walking anywhere in the Multiverse in a day or dying (and getting back up) 5 times in a day without a cleric around to raise you is pretty sweet. Also, why bring in Exalted when the response was to a 3.x loyalist?

Kurald Galain
2009-01-21, 01:32 PM
Also, why bring in Exalted
Because Exalted is awesome, of course.


when the response was to a 3.x loyalist?
To a what?! What is this, the Civil War? :smallbiggrin:

Townopolis
2009-01-21, 01:43 PM
I've noticed that people playing 4e D&D generally aren't looking for the style of play that exalted gives. They usually aren't looking for the style of play that Birthright gives either. Yes, you're a superhero/king from the get go. No, we don't want to join you.

Artanis
2009-01-21, 02:20 PM
Your new ones do the same thing... but better.
Hell, there's even some powers out there that come right out and say they're that way. I looked at the non-Paragon Wizard powers for about ten minutes, and four at least four sequences of a later power being objectively more powerful than the previous, plus a fifth that is nearly that way:

Ice Storm < Greater Ice Storm

Acid Arrow < Necrotic Web

Shock Sphere* < Fire Burst < Combust

Fireball < Meteor Swarm

Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning are almost this way, with a minimal downside to Chain Lightning being the secondary attack being slightly more limited. Chain Lightning is otherwise vastly superior to Lightning Bolt.


*Shock Sphere is lightning damage while the others are fire, so whether it counts or not is up to the player. But even if it doesn't, Combust is still better than Fire Burst.

Asbestos
2009-01-21, 03:35 PM
To a what?! What is this, the Civil War? :smallbiggrin:

I was tempted to say 'Tory' when I was writing that originally. :smalltongue:

DM Raven
2009-01-21, 04:45 PM
Guess they would have to be ranged sneak attacks, unless you are fighting in the dark and can sneak up to the edge of someone's light source and charge them.

Actually, if you take an action that would cause you to lose stealth, you remain hidden until your current action resolves. So, if you were to say use deft strike to take two steps and attack, you could walk out of the shadows and stab someone with a sneak attack. Or, you could take two steps out from behind cover and fire your crossbow. The cool thing is, if you can get back to full cover again, you can make a new hide check in the same round.

Oslecamo
2009-01-21, 06:17 PM
Did you happen to forget Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies? Guys who used to lie on the ground after getting knocked around are now capable of fighting past the limit.

No I didn't, but hey, 3.X has cool Prcs also, and there's plenty of combos to keep going even after that dragon swallowed you.



You laughed at the man who chose the burdensome plate armor... but now you cannot even pierce his skin. You hunt gods, and they fear you.
Of course they fear you. They fear everything actually.:smallwink:
It's kinda hard for gods to don't be afraid when all they can do is wait inside their dungeons whitout any way of creating new minions, see what's hapening around them or reforcing their defenses as adventurers closes in. Asmodeus himself was being raped day and night by solo guys untill Wotc nerfed them. Poor Asmodeus, having to beg to mortal wizards just to get some shred of respect...

Of course, "god" in 4e means "monster as everybody else". There are no gods in the sense of the word in 4e as far as the rules care.



You have a leather wallet that you convince some random thug at a diner to give back to you.
With need of several minutes of conversation. In 3.X, you convinced the king to hand you his kingdom with just some seconds of smart talk.



The abilities you acquired while fighting years ago have been surpassed by the ability to crawl along slick walls and burn the Red Dragon. You don't need the old powers. Your new ones do the same thing... but better.
Exactly. They do the same thing, over and over again for the next 20 levels, with just bigger numbers. Your fireblast burns hotter and perhaps a little wider....But it's still a fireblast. In 3.X I would be opening a gate to the plane of fire, or making delayed fireblasts, or bringing forth an army of fire elementals, or becoming the fireblast myself.



Martial Power: Two-Fisted Shooter feat. Hand Crossbow becomes an off-hand weapon with free reloading. Take any of a number of powers that have the Melee or Ranged keywords.

But in 3.X I would be able to shoot the crossbow at one target and stab someone else with the rapier in the same turn. And then stack sneack attack or some other special ability on top of it. Several times if I had enough BAB.
Your 4e feat doesn't actually allow you to attack with both all turns.

And where is my custom tank?:smalltongue:

DM Raven
2009-01-21, 06:38 PM
Everyone hush and stop the 3.x vs 4ed wars. Stop arguing because it's all opinion...play either and let the other people do the same!

Mando Knight
2009-01-21, 06:43 PM
Of course, "god" in 4e means "monster as everybody else". There are no gods in the sense of the word in 4e as far as the rules care.

You kidding? Tiamat has the ability to avoid defeat, has a 75% chance of defeating any condition before it comes into effect, even if it doesn't allow a save, and is 5 levels higher than any of the MM monsters other than Orcus. She's not "just a monster." She may be statted out as a monster... but in a one-shot that I was running, it turned out that without uber-cheese on the PCs' side, her stats were just a long way of saying "Every 1d4 rounds, the toughest PC in the room dies."

On top of that, most deities haven't actually been statted out: just Tiamat and Vecna, IIRC.

And the wallet bit was a reference to a well-known piece of badassery (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PulpFiction) by Samuel L. Jackson (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SamuelLJackson). :smallannoyed:

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-21, 06:45 PM
Everyone hush and stop the 3.x vs 4ed wars. Stop arguing because it's all opinion...play either and let the other people do the same!

Seriously. Can we... not do this? Just this one time? Is there any possibility that we might be able to let the matter drop, spit Cabal's badly punctuated trollbait out of our collective mouth, and go back to discussing the errata and how it affects the errata'd aspects of 4E?

EDIT: Because I don't play a stealthy type, and I'd really be interested in some discussion about how stealth worked before, and how it works now, and whether all you rogues think the change was warranted.

Asbestos
2009-01-21, 06:51 PM
No I didn't, but hey, 3.X has cool Prcs also, and there's plenty of combos to keep going even after that dragon swallowed you.

They aren't really the same now are they? Saying that 3.x has it too doesn't do much for your argument, fyi.



Of course they fear you. They fear everything actually.:smallwink:
It's kinda hard for gods to don't be afraid when all they can do is wait inside their dungeons whitout any way of creating new minions, see what's hapening around them or reforcing their defenses as adventurers closes in. Asmodeus himself was being raped day and night by solo guys untill Wotc nerfed them. Poor Asmodeus, having to beg to mortal wizards just to get some shred of respect...
Wtf are you talking about?



Of course, "god" in 4e means "monster as everybody else". There are no gods in the sense of the word in 4e as far as the rules care.
3.x gods were never statted out, nope, not ever.



With need of several minutes of conversation. In 3.X, you convinced the king to hand you his kingdom with just some seconds of smart talk.
And a kobold could become God-King of the Multiverse. It's retarded.



Exactly. They do the same thing, over and over again for the next 20 levels, with just bigger numbers. Your fireblast burns hotter and perhaps a little wider....But it's still a fireblast. In 3.X I would be opening a gate to the plane of fire, or making delayed fireblasts, or bringing forth an army of fire elementals, or becoming the fireblast myself.
You're doing the same thing, burning stuff, either way. No matter what one way is going to be better than the others, so you wouldn't be doing the lesser ways at all.




But in 3.X I would be able to shoot the crossbow at one target and stab someone else with the rapier in the same turn. And then stack sneack attack or some other special ability on top of it. Several times if I had enough BAB.
Your 4e feat doesn't actually allow you to attack with both all turns.
My cloaked sniper rogue springs out from behind a pillar, attacking the surprised guard in front of him with a Low Slash with his blade, adding sneak attack damage, knocking the guard away, and slowing him until the end of my next turn. I then use my hand crossbow (held in my offhand) to take aim at the tightly grouped baddies ahead of me (they're sitting around playing dice), unleashing a barrage of crossbow bolts with Burst Fire as they try to dodge away, then, noting that the guard I stabbed earlier is still standing, I pop him with Sudden Bolt and plunge a bolt into him. If I feel like it, I spend an action point to make another attack, adding my sneak attack bonus to it thanks to this being the surprise round and Sniper's Action, I probably use this to drop the guard I've been turning into a pin cushion. I then shift back behind the column.

That took very little time for me to think up, there are many ways in 4e to attack more than one target/more than once in a round.


And where is my custom tank?:smalltongue:
I can tell you where to go looking for it... :smallsmile:

But seriously, you prefer 3.x to 4e, good for you! Quit trying to **** all over something just because you don't like it and it isn't for you.

Asbestos
2009-01-21, 06:54 PM
Anyway...

What do people think of the Errated skill challenge stuff, I haven't had a ton of experience with it.

Saph
2009-01-21, 07:24 PM
Anyway...

What do people think of the Errated skill challenge stuff, I haven't had a ton of experience with it.

Well, it's better . . . but that's not saying much. I was unfortunate enough to have gone through several 4e skill challenges played with the un-errataed rules, and they were awful. I honestly can't figure out how the designers could ever have thought that "well, you go around in initiative order and roll skill checks!" was a good way of resolving an encounter.

The errata helps by reducing the DCs and giving a bit more freedom. Unfortunately, they've errataed EVERY section, making reading it a nightmare. Honestly, I think it's better to just give the whole thing up as a bad job and run skill encounters by ear.

- Saph

TheEmerged
2009-01-21, 07:29 PM
I'll have to wait until I get home to be certain (download limits at work), but what I'm seeing is a continuation from before -- minor changes that aren't much more serious than typos, really.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-21, 07:29 PM
Unfortunately, they've errataed EVERY section, making reading it a nightmare.


Yeah. Mike Mearls himself has admitted that they pretty much screwed up completely on the whole Skill Challenge thing. They've apparently been trying to fix (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dursc/20090114) those mechanics ever since. I dunno, I haven't actually been reading those articles or listening to the podcast, so this is just what I've heard on the forums.

bremlar
2009-01-21, 07:44 PM
My comments are not going to be all that spectacular, but here they are anyway:

The errata for Purple Worm/Elder Purple Worm were a PITA to write into my MM - though not as much as rewriting the entire stealth check section from the previous errate into my PHB - but I think that it clarifies and improves on the original. For example, I think it makes perfect sense to change the swallowed taget's attack options from "melee basic attack" to just "basic attack." There's no reason a ranger can't be shooting his bow into the worm's stomach, let alone a reason why an arcane caster wouldn't use Eldritch Blast, Magic Missile &c.

I'm confused about how I'm supposed to write the errata onto my DM screen. I obviously need to do so, since the whole point of spending money on the screen was to keep me from having to check the books for rules. I suppose I could use a pen, but that could bet messy with my handwriting, let alone the possibility of future errata.

Did anyone notice that, even though the errata page still mentions it, the new "Target DCs" table is no longer available to download and paste onto the DM screen? I'm glad I caught that with the last batch of errata.

Asbestos
2009-01-21, 07:54 PM
My comments are not going to be all that spectacular, but here they are anyway:

The errata for Purple Worm/Elder Purple Worm were a PITA to write into my MM - though not as much as rewriting the entire stealth check section from the previous errate into my PHB - but I think that it clarifies and improves on the original. For example, I think it makes perfect sense to change the swallowed taget's attack options from "melee basic attack" to just "basic attack." There's no reason a ranger can't be shooting his bow into the worm's stomach, let alone a reason why an arcane caster wouldn't use Eldritch Blast, Magic Missile &c.

I'm confused about how I'm supposed to write the errata onto my DM screen. I obviously need to do so, since the whole point of spending money on the screen was to keep me from having to check the books for rules. I suppose I could use a pen, but that could bet messy with my handwriting, let alone the possibility of future errata.

Did anyone notice that, even though the errata page still mentions it, the new "Target DCs" table is no longer available to download and paste onto the DM screen? I'm glad I caught that with the last batch of errata.

I thought you could just print out the errata for the DM screen and like, paste it over the old section.

bremlar
2009-01-21, 08:34 PM
I thought you could just print out the errata for the DM screen and like, paste it over the old section.

You could do that with the old errata for the target DCs, since that was basically a .pdf of a new table, formatted just like all the other tables on the screen, which you could cut out and paste onto the screen. That files is gone now, though the top of the page still mentions it.

The errata posted on 1/20 for the screen doesn't have the table for target DCs, and the new arrata is formatted just like all the other errata, i.e. paragraphs of plain text that say "See this section. Replace that with this."

I'm at work right now, so I don't have my screen with me, but I'm pretty sure that the it won't be possilble to cut put parts of these paragraphs and paste them onto the screem without having them stretch off the various tables.

Though I suppose I could attempt to refomat some things myself and see how that works.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-22, 06:07 AM
Yeah. Mike Mearls himself has admitted that they pretty much screwed up completely on the whole Skill Challenge thing.

Link please?

Not that I'm surprised. They obviously hadn't done the math on SCs as printed in the DMG.

There are a few other things that need errata and have apparently been overlooked - most notably being that 3rd-level fighter power that some people claim grants you four attacks. And, from a balance point of view, the items that penalize enemy saving throws could use some errata.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-22, 06:10 AM
Link please?

Sorry, no link. Just passing on unsubstantiated rumors.

KKL
2009-01-22, 01:52 PM
Of course they fear you. They fear everything actually.:smallwink:
It's kinda hard for gods to don't be afraid when all they can do is wait inside their dungeons whitout any way of creating new minions, see what's hapening around them or reforcing their defenses as adventurers closes in. Asmodeus himself was being raped day and night by solo guys untill Wotc nerfed them. Poor Asmodeus, having to beg to mortal wizards just to get some shred of respect...

Trolling stop. 4e trolling stop. Oslecamo 4e trolling stop.

Saph
2009-01-22, 02:27 PM
By the way, is it just me, or did the Adventurer's Vault errata miss some of the most powerful items? Orb of Ultimate Imposition, for instance.

- Saph

KKL
2009-01-22, 02:38 PM
By the way, is it just me, or did the Adventurer's Vault errata miss some of the most powerful items? Orb of Ultimate Imposition, for instance.

- Saph

I really wanted them to do something about radiant weapons. They somehow get an item bonus to damage equal to their enhance value...which should be wrong.

Mando Knight
2009-01-22, 02:41 PM
By the way, is it just me, or did the Adventurer's Vault errata miss some of the most powerful items? Orb of Ultimate Imposition, for instance.

- Saph

Yeah... I'd at least houserule that a nat 20 always saves, or that the maximum net penalty to saves is -10. (the end result is the same...)

RTGoodman
2009-01-22, 02:45 PM
Sorry, no link. Just passing on unsubstantiated rumors.

Well, there may be no direct quote, but I think it's pretty obvious when, by now, they have something like 4 full articles in Dragon Magazine about running skill challenges. I haven't read them so I don't know any content, but that seems like a lot since the games only been out what, 7-8 months?

Matthew
2009-01-22, 03:09 PM
I think I read somewhere that the WotC staff also tend to cut the number of hit points monsters have in half. Is that addressed in the errata or am I just imagining it? My thief is getting his ass kicked in our current play by post encounter. I think he must have hit the fire beetle four times and it's still not friggin' dead!

Artanis
2009-01-22, 03:25 PM
Aren't Fire Beetles the ridiculously overpowered one? Or am I thinking of a different monster?

Saph
2009-01-22, 03:34 PM
Aren't Fire Beetles the ridiculously overpowered one? Or am I thinking of a different monster?

Fire Beetles are nasty, but not totally overpowered unless you use them in packs - an encounter of 5-6 of them is likely to be a TPK to level 1s, but you can handle one or two. It's Needlefang Drake Swarms that are the ridiculously deadly ones.

- Saph

Matthew
2009-01-22, 03:55 PM
Aren't Fire Beetles the ridiculously overpowered one? Or am I thinking of a different monster?

Fire Beetles are nasty, but not totally overpowered unless you use them in packs - an encounter of 5-6 of them is likely to be a TPK to level 1s, but you can handle one or two. It's Needlefang Drake Swarms that are the ridiculously deadly ones.

Hmmn. Our party of first level characters (Human Fighter, Human Thief, Human Wizard, Dragonborn Warlord, and Elf Ranger) is currently facing off against three fire beetles and one stag beetle looking thing. It does look to be pretty touch and go at the moment. :smallbiggrin:

Colmarr
2009-01-22, 04:14 PM
So for those of us without access to the actual errata, is there anything in there with direct relevance to general play (ie. not "This item changes this way", but more "change the rules for X skill like this")?

JMobius
2009-01-22, 04:16 PM
It's Needlefang Drake Swarms that are the ridiculously deadly ones.

- Saph

Oh, good to know. I was going to put this in the first adventure of an upcoming game...

Starbuck_II
2009-01-22, 04:27 PM
Needle swams are only too dangerous in groups.
Same as Fire beetles.

I think one of the designs has a reptile and bug fear. As they are the most dangerous groups.

Mando Knight
2009-01-22, 04:38 PM
It should be noted, though, that a team including a Wizard with Scorching Burst and a Swordmage with Sword Burst will be able to thrash a Needlefang Swarm's HP quite quickly... if there's just one. Or if it's Tucker's PCs.

Saph
2009-01-22, 05:24 PM
It should be noted, though, that a team including a Wizard with Scorching Burst and a Swordmage with Sword Burst will be able to thrash a Needlefang Swarm's HP quite quickly... if there's just one.

That's the problem. A single Needlefang Swarm is only one level 2 monster. You could be facing five of the little nightmares at once.

In the last 4e session I DMed, I had two Needlefang swarms and some terrain hazards against five level 2 PCs, including a Wizard. It was pretty much an even fight.

- Saph

Totally Guy
2009-01-22, 05:36 PM
In the last 4e session I DMed, I had two Needlefang swarms and some terrain hazards against five level 2 PCs, including a Wizard. It was pretty much an even fight.

- Saph

In the first session I ran I used these, reflavoured as undead bees and vunrable to radiant damage. I saw what was happening and allowed the Paladin to kill them with Healing Hands as I'd not yet learned the whole positive energy thing no longer applied. So that's it, one session in and I'd fudged the rules to survive the party.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-22, 06:36 PM
By the way, is it just me, or did the Adventurer's Vault errata miss some of the most powerful items? Orb of Ultimate Imposition, for instance.
It's not just you. The AV errata is way too short, and misses several unclarities (e.g. can you use a multiclass feat to wield Gloves of Admixture? or what does a pacthammer do exactly?) even aside from the power level question. Another thing that needs clarifying is how much warlocks with pact blade (or spiral tower wizards) benefit from magical weapons and weapon-related feats.


I think I read somewhere that the WotC staff also tend to cut the number of hit points monsters have in half.
Wouldn't surprise me. Frankly, battles with tough monsters tend to become boring quickly. After three or four rounds, all the party's encounter powers are gone, and they're just numbingly spamming their at-wills until the monster finally drops.


So for those of us without access to the actual errata, is there anything in there with direct relevance to general play (ie. not "This item changes this way", but more "change the rules for X skill like this")?
How can you not have access to the errata, they're on a public site.

The PH and DMG has some crucial errata, in that both the Stealth skill and all the Skill Challenge rules work very differently now.

(edit) oh yeah, and using Perception is supposed to be a minor action (not standard) and Thievery adds half the enemy's level to its DC (not the full level) for the obvious reason that both become exceedingly pointless otherwise. Frankly, WOTC should have caught those in proofreading.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-22, 06:37 PM
So for those of us without access to the actual errata, is there anything in there with direct relevance to general play (ie. not "This item changes this way", but more "change the rules for X skill like this")?

The errata is not under the DDI umbrella, man.

--And yes, there is. Stealth rules, skill DCs. Bunch of power changes.

Colmarr
2009-01-22, 10:39 PM
How can you not have access to the errata, they're on a public site.

Sorry I should have said "access from work". The WotC website is blocked here.

P.S. You caught me. My main aim was to distract people from their edition wars...