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Zeful
2009-01-20, 10:54 PM
I'm working on designing a campaign setting and have come across a stumbling block. I have a very Lawful kingdom/country that is need of an effective prison system for a large number of inmates. Life/Death sentences are rare there, but I've already got something taking care of that. I'm just drawing a blank on what should be the non-life prison be. I'm going for high security.

You guys got any ideas?

EDIT: Forgot that this is for 3.5

Kesnit
2009-01-20, 10:55 PM
D&D setting or Modern? LG or LE?

Zeful
2009-01-20, 10:58 PM
D&D setting or Modern? LG or LE?

D&D 3.5, Lawful Neutral most likely.

Innis Cabal
2009-01-20, 10:59 PM
If there is alot of magic in the kingdom, shrink them all down, put them in mini-cells. You save space, don't need to feed them as much, and can pick them and move them easily.

The Neoclassic
2009-01-20, 11:02 PM
Well, you might consider finding some unpleasant and menial industry that most prisoners could be assigned to work in. It'd give them something to do with their time and also help cover the costs the government incurs by keeping them in jail. I mean, I know hard labor in the mines and such is usually considered brutal, but if done humanely it doesn't seem like it would be a bad option in a LN D&D society. After all, someone's got to do it. Just one thought.

Zeful
2009-01-20, 11:04 PM
If there is alot of magic in the kingdom, shrink them all down, put them in mini-cells. You save space, don't need to feed them as much, and can pick them and move them easily.

There aren't many casters willing to expend that kind of effort. The society is pretty strict about Lawfulness, and breaking the laws does almost always mean jail time, and sometimes a fine. Littering is 7 hours in jail and a 30gp fine, for example.


Well, you might consider finding some unpleasant and menial industry that most prisoners could be assigned to work in. It'd give them something to do with their time and also help cover the costs the government incurs by keeping them in jail. I mean, I know hard labor in the mines and such is usually considered brutal, but if done humanely it doesn't seem like it would be a bad option in a LN D&D society. After all, someone's got to do it. Just one thought.
Maybe for non-violent crimes sure, cart pushing (I'm not giving inmates picks it's a bad idea, just because their in for a non-violent crime, doesn't mean their not violent) road construction and cleaning would be simple.

Grail
2009-01-20, 11:07 PM
Prisons always need to be built in or part of it in a dead-magic zone.

xanaphia
2009-01-20, 11:08 PM
Remember that a common laborer gets 1 sp a day. The fine for littering is about a year's wage. That's sort of unlikely.

If I were you, I'd use them to dig dungeons, or mine, or build roads.

Lappy9000
2009-01-20, 11:11 PM
Anti-magical barrier surrounding an magical university to prevent arcane pollution/keep in unruly spellcasting inmates? [source (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5512909&postcount=94)]

EDIT: Post-ninja'd???

Zeful
2009-01-20, 11:13 PM
Remember that a common laborer gets 1 sp a day. The fine for littering is about a year's wage. That's sort of unlikely.

If I were you, I'd use them to dig dungeons, or mine, or build roads.

Point, though making the fine also payable in menial labor works.


Prisons always need to be built in or part of it in a dead-magic zone.I was going to have magic shackles that absorb magical abilities, as there are no dead-magic zones in this setting.


Anti-magical barrier surrounding an magical university to prevent arcane pollution/keep in unruly spellcasting inmates? [source (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5512909&postcount=94)]See above about magic eating shackles.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-01-20, 11:20 PM
Uhh, I question why this is all that much of a problem? Medieval societies, pseudo or otherwise, probably won't have as large a population to manage in the first place . . .

So why can't this simply be solved by what amounts to little more than a giant building with cells in it?

Even your magic wielding prisoners are probably rare and far-and-few in between, and a good majority of those are trumped by binding their hands and gagging them.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-20, 11:25 PM
Forbiddance everywhere obviously.

Zeful
2009-01-20, 11:38 PM
Uhh, I question why this is all that much of a problem? Medieval societies, pseudo or otherwise, probably won't have as large a population to manage in the first place . . .

So why can't this simply be solved by what amounts to little more than a giant building with cells in it?

Even your magic wielding prisoners are probably rare and far-and-few in between, and a good majority of those are trumped by binding their hands and gagging them.

Because I tend to space on smaller details, most of the stuff I've come up with have been responses to people asking questions.

Toliudar
2009-01-21, 12:17 AM
I'd focus on the possibility that, if it's a highly lawful society, there don't need to be lots of space for prisons, since proportionately fewer people break the law.

A mark of justice cast by a high-level priest can be an effective tool to enforce obedience, except with other high level casters.

Emperor Tippy
2009-01-21, 12:21 AM
The 6th level spell Smokey Confinement from Complete Mage. The prisoner gets stuffed in a crystal vial and stays there, in stasis, until you decide to let him out. Unfortunately the prisoner doesn't notice any time passing at all but it does allow for an interesting justice system.

Instead of a 7 hour sentence for littering, make it a 7 week (or even 7 year) sentence. And assault could be a 100 year sentence. The prisoner doesn't notice the time passing but when their time is up the world has changed drastically and everyone they knew is dead or gone.

thorgrim29
2009-01-21, 12:26 AM
That's a bit extreme.... I do like the shrinking prisoner idea though, even though it does mean it's easier to escape (well, unless each cell is made out of a solid block of stone)

Zeful
2009-01-21, 12:30 AM
The 6th level spell Smokey Confinement from Complete Mage. The prisoner gets stuffed in a crystal vial and stays there, in stasis, until you decide to let him out. Unfortunately the prisoner doesn't notice any time passing at all but it does allow for an interesting justice system.

Instead of a 7 hour sentence for littering, make it a 7 week (or even 7 year) sentence. And assault could be a 100 year sentence. The prisoner doesn't notice the time passing but when their time is up the world has changed drastically and everyone they knew is dead or gone.

There aren't enough high-level casters in the setting willing to devote effort towards prison confinement because they are locked in a stalemate at the moment and like to continue existing.

Waspinator
2009-01-21, 12:31 AM
Flesh to Stone could also work.

Zeful
2009-01-21, 12:32 AM
Flesh to Stone could also work.

Life sentences have their own system, which is better and worse at the same time.

Waspinator
2009-01-21, 12:47 AM
I didn't say permanently. Flesh to Stone just makes excellent storage since there's really no way to get out of it short of somone using Stone to Flesh on you.

Zeful
2009-01-21, 12:56 AM
I didn't say permanently. Flesh to Stone just makes excellent storage since there's really no way to get out of it short of somone using Stone to Flesh on you.

There's Break Enchantment. And again, there aren't enough casters willing or able to cast enough 6th level spells per day to run that kind of system. And in a strict LN society, there won't be enough mid-level offenses (extortion, kidnapping, slavery and the like) to justify it's use over long terms.

Alleine
2009-01-21, 01:08 AM
You could do a massive underground complex guarded by horrible beasts that none of the inmates could really stand a chance getting past. Just have the jailers with eternal wands of invisibility or something similar. They go invisible along with the inmate who could possibly by unconscious and make their way to cells the guardian monsters are not capable of getting into, and do the same for getting someone out only in reverse.

Have it set up with monsters on every level between cells. The further down you go, the harder it will be to get out.

Alternatively you could just say the creatures are tame/trained, or the jailers have some amulet that causes the monsters to ignore them. This works better for actually making sure the inmates get fed, because then they could just haul a load of foodstuffs for the inmates past the creatures without needing to be too careful.

As for the really petty stuff like littering? Just throw them in a regular jail/the very tip top of the jail where escape is relatively easy compared to the bottom floor. There's no real reason to have dangerous guards on someone who will be there for less than a day.

hiryuu
2009-01-21, 01:20 AM
Prisons always need to be built in or part of it in a dead-magic zone.

Not if you chop off their hands, rip out their tongues, and put out their eyes. If you're dealing with a setting where magical methods of escape are this much of a problem, you can always cast regenerate later, if you don't execute magic-using criminals as a matter of course.

Zeful
2009-01-21, 01:20 AM
You could do a massive underground complex guarded by horrible beasts that none of the inmates could really stand a chance getting past. Just have the jailers with eternal wands of invisibility or something similar. They go invisible along with the inmate who could possibly by unconscious and make their way to cells the guardian monsters are not capable of getting into, and do the same for getting someone out only in reverse.

Have it set up with monsters on every level between cells. The further down you go, the harder it will be to get out.

This is almost exactly how the Life/Death sentences are done in this society. Except it's a massive public crypt, full of the undead (which are animated by a standing enchantment on the crypt by the first king, which was several hundred years ago), and an neigh inaccessible demiplane. But getting sent down there requires a big offense (torture, murder, treason, rape, and such), everything else would be a normalish jail, with petty offense sentences enforced by the honor system in a low-sec block.

tyckspoon
2009-01-21, 01:23 AM
There's Break Enchantment. And again, there aren't enough casters willing or able to cast enough 6th level spells per day to run that kind of system. And in a strict LN society, there won't be enough mid-level offenses (extortion, kidnapping, slavery and the like) to justify it's use over long terms.

Break Enchantment doesn't actually work- Flesh to Stone is too high level for it, so you'll pretty much be using Stone To Flesh. Which has the nasty side-effect of probably killing a large percentage of the people you use it on, who are unlikely to have buffed Fort saves. Presuming the society intends to be just in its application of punishments, you wouldn't do this to anybody who hadn't already earned a death sentence anyway.

MickJay
2009-01-21, 02:15 PM
For a mediaeval-like setting, there shouldn't even be a prison. Typical sentences were usually carried out immediately - paying fines, mutilation, execution, banishment. Keeping people in prisons requires lots of money, why pay if there are simpler solutions? Dungeons were typically reserved for special cases. Prisoners awaiting trial could even be locked up in makeshift arrests if there was no suitable facility (like a dungeon) in town. Fines were often considered suitable even for serious crimes (rape, murder), the amount to be paid depended on social status of both the perpetrator and the victim; peasants and townsfolk would typically be executed anyway (they usually wouldn't have the money to pay anyway), while nobles would pay the family of the murdered person as compensation (amounts varied greatly depending on time and place; fine could be e.g. amount sufficient to buy a village, serfs included, or just enough to get a good, but not extraordinary, horse).

Sending people to row on the galleys was a good way getting them out of the society (and they did something useful as well). Mines and such offered more chances of escaping.

Zeful
2009-01-21, 02:55 PM
For a mediaeval-like setting, there shouldn't even be a prison. Typical sentences were usually carried out immediately - paying fines, mutilation, execution, banishment. Keeping people in prisons requires lots of money, why pay if there are simpler solutions? Dungeons were typically reserved for special cases. Prisoners awaiting trial could even be locked up in makeshift arrests if there was no suitable facility (like a dungeon) in town. Fines were often considered suitable even for serious crimes (rape, murder), the amount to be paid depended on social status of both the perpetrator and the victim; peasants and townsfolk would typically be executed anyway (they usually wouldn't have the money to pay anyway), while nobles would pay the family of the murdered person as compensation (amounts varied greatly depending on time and place; fine could be e.g. amount sufficient to buy a village, serfs included, or just enough to get a good, but not extraordinary, horse).

Sending people to row on the galleys was a good way getting them out of the society (and they did something useful as well). Mines and such offered more chances of escaping.

Historically that may be true. Good thing this setting in no way reflects our history, at all.

Alleine
2009-01-21, 03:01 PM
This is almost exactly how the Life/Death sentences are done in this society

Well, if the system works for life/death then a toned down copy of it should be fine and logical for lesser crimes.
And just think, if your PC's ever go in there for whatever reason, they'll actually be in a real dungeon! Not just a cave or a ruin, but a dungeon!

Starbuck_II
2009-01-21, 03:12 PM
Iron Bands of Binding work from DMG, but they costs 26K.

Eldariel
2009-01-21, 03:40 PM
How about a permanent, nearly empty (or one with cells, whatever) demiplane with only exit/entrance in the structure that handles the imprisonments? Some old mage built 'em for some large sum of money long ago and they're still just as good as they were. The advantage is that this requires no magical upkeep; just that they were constructed at some point (through Genesis). And you could, for example, have magic suppressed in the demiplane to prevent magical escapes and to make 'em usable with whatever types of criminals (just walls hard enough to hold any person; Adamantine should do it).

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-21, 03:48 PM
There aren't many casters willing to expend that kind of effort. The society is pretty strict about Lawfulness, and breaking the laws does almost always mean jail time, and sometimes a fine. Littering is 7 hours in jail and a 30gp fine, for example.

This seems impractical. Why would they imprison someone who is not a threat to others or to the government? That's not how prisons worked back in the day. "7 hours in jail" is not any sort of punishment, and makes no sense for a society to apply.

Putting people to hard labor for X hours a day for Y days seems like a better solution. More serious crimes could be punished with, say, a prison legion - prisoners chained together and forced to fight alongside regular units.

Prometheus
2009-01-21, 04:05 PM
Maximize Surveillance. Modern prisons use mass surveillance technology - which translates to divination magic in the D&D world. I heard that there was a prison in Cuba that was essentially a large guard tower and a yellow circle on the ground (how is that a prison? Don't step outside that circle). In this case, this would mean a couple of powerful wizards (or perhaps archers) would be in charge of security, more by deterrent than actual prevention. In light of magical deterrence and magical surveillance, it makes little sense to employ the high costs of magic draining shackles.

If you really want to play up the theme or abhor the cost of magic, use a Panopticon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon) prison. This was a conceptual prison that featured one-way mirrors so that no one could know when they are being watched and when they weren't - but since they could be at any moment, no time was safe to attempt a break-out.

In addition to replicating this with effect with surveillance technology, modern prisons also employ use in-mates to report each other. Rewards for reporting security breeches or helping restrain an unruly inmate is actually quite successful. This would reinforce the notion that even the criminals are lawful, or perhaps that the lawful government is forcing its values on the general public.

While this wouldn't be a page from the modern prison how-to-guide, the others are right in that putting the prisoners to a labor-intensive task saves on costs. It is fitting with the punishment over rehabilitation lawful mindset as well, but I have to say that it multiplies the security dilemma by giving the inmates access to tools and diverting attention.

Here is the real point - is the description of this prison just for describing the society or will it have an actual impact on the game dynamic? If say there will be a successful prison revolt while the PCs are there or the PCs will have to break themselves out, you should consider how these elements will play into it. If it's just there to build verisimilitude, than the less detail you go into it the more convinced your PCs will be that it is safe (because the PCs will start to think the information is relevant, and safe prisons usually aren't).

Inhuman Bot
2009-01-21, 08:25 PM
There aren't many casters willing to expend that kind of effort. The society is pretty strict about Lawfulness, and breaking the laws does almost always mean jail time, and sometimes a fine. Littering is 7 hours in jail and a 30gp fine, for example.

I don't know if nitpicking bothers you, but 30gp? That would take years to pay off for the average person!

Curmudgeon
2009-01-22, 06:43 AM
Iron Bands of Binding work from DMG, but they costs 26K. Oh, excellent! That way you've got a way to finance your escape from jail -- just sell the expensive magical trinket for 13K gp!

ericgrau
2009-01-23, 01:21 AM
Magical contours are expensive, and high level magic is rare. Instead, try confiscating spell components and spell books, tying up known spellcasters, possibly gagging them, etc. Plus you gotta keep in mind that low level magic won't be the end of the world for the jail. Guards can fight back, and attempts to escape are followed up by punishment. For high level magic, then you pull out the bigger guns or find another work-around for that specific case.

Plus jail wasn't always the popular way to go. There are other punishments.

Canadian
2009-01-23, 11:47 PM
Banish them! To the forbidden city...

Neek
2009-01-24, 02:02 AM
I'm working on designing a campaign setting and have come across a stumbling block. I have a very Lawful kingdom/country that is need of an effective prison system for a large number of inmates. Life/Death sentences are rare there, but I've already got something taking care of that. I'm just drawing a blank on what should be the non-life prison be. I'm going for high security.

You guys got any ideas?

EDIT: Forgot that this is for 3.5

Alright, there are a few things to be asked:
How large is the kingdom in terms of population, population density, and density of communities (that is, is the kingdom a metropolitan kingdom that contains little rural land, a large central population with villages outside of varying density and enough rural area, or is it mainly rural with some main pockets of villages, and the capital?)
How expectant are you of a guard to follow EVERY letter of the law? Are some more lax than another, are some reasonable, or are they all just pricks about this?
What is the reason for the existence of punishment?

As stated before, prison systems are impressively expensive, requiring a massive drain on the economy unless 1). privatized, in which case the quality of incarceration will vary, 2). is made possible by a heavy tax on the populace, 3). is paid for by the fines paid for criminal acts. There is a pitfall for the latter-most option: The lower class won't be able to pay the fines, and chances are, will be forced to menial labor, which breaks more or less even once paid in full.

Prisons of the olden times were reserved for criminals of the upper class, the execution or punishment of whom would result in massive political reciprocation: Enough to start a war. Lesser crimes could be paid on various methods--look at the Code of Laws of Hammurabi. Now, this is a fantasy setting, which gives you a lot of freedom. You don't want to emulate the past, which is fine, however looking at historical forms of punishment gives you a spring board to determine how to handle things.

Remember these two points: 1). Not every crime is going to be given a punishment from a lenient guard. 2). Because you are lawful does not make you immune from corruption.

You listed littering has having 7 hours of jail time and 30 gp fine. Which is fine if you're an adventurer or noble--you could probably even get out of jail through a bail, a bribe, or simply convincing the guard that you have no time for this, that you're very important, and detaining you would be detrimental to the community because of where you are going. If you have enough clout, you won't have to make a Bluff check to find out. As a commoner? You'll serve jail time and work the menial labor, because paying is not an option. At 1 sp/day, a 6-day work week out of a seven-day week, we're looking at 50 weeks of menial labor. You'll see almost a year in menial labor, and if you run a shop, you will more than likely lose it (maybe the state will seize it on lack of proper tax payment because, which may incur MORE time) or be taken over by competitors.

A lawful neutral community would run the punishment of a crime to be fair compared to the crime. Unless your littering caused 30 gp of damages to the city, paying 30 gp wouldn't be fair. It could spell financial ruin for the lower class, and the upper class wouldn't balk at it--30 gp is 30 gp. I'd recommend the task of menial labor to be the baseline of the crime, that is, an eye for an eye without taking an eye: If someone litters, they are sentenced to 1 day of community service, picking up trash. There is no reason why the state would burden itself for 7 hours of prison for a littering criminal. Nor is there a reason why the state would expect 50 weeks of a type of labor that does not match the crime.

Such an expectation would make the state run towards Lawful Evil: It deprives those who cannot are faced with a citation of their livelihood, even on the most basic of crimes, while inconveniencing those on top.

One must also realize that a lawful neutral community would have an appeals system: Am I truly guilty of littering, one could ask the state, and seek to have the charges dropped or reduced. An option if you have a lawyer or a good rhetor as a retainer, but you'd only have a retainer if you were a patron (in a Romanesque setting) or a noble (in a more medieval setting)--more than likely, in a medieval setting, a court or a jury would be more inclined to hear a convincing and entertaining argument--generally, the more flamboyant and robust the argument, the more truth it MUST have. This is true of Italy from the time of the Romans to World War 2. Even today's courts, a lawyer must be good at rhetoric--not only must state an argument to be without counter-argument, but also well-stated and appropriately understood by the jury. While flamboyance makes for an entertaining trial, we view it as unprofessional. Not the masses of rural Europe, however.

The upper class wins in such a system, while the poor invariably loses. The best way to handle this is to simply allow for the compensation of the crime to match the crime directly. A theft requires the returning of the goods, or a payment equal to the value of the goods stolen if they cannot be recovered, and perhaps some time served.

Serving time doesn't have to be a prison. The in-processing and out-processing could take longer than the prison sentence in some instances, depending on the amount of paperwork involved, checking the borough and district records for unpaid fines or warrants for their arrest, double checking any inconsistencies in the records (one borough states he had paid the fine, but no receipt was issued; another borough states he's wanted for the violation of a similar, yet unrelated crime, but the notes are unclear as to whether or not he is without a doubt the suspect and the witness who reported it has since passed away, while another says he was tried and executed, ad nauseum). A simple pillory might suffice, despite how close it runs to capital punishment. Revoking privileges to certain areas of a town might be called. House arrest. The list goes on, but the punishment must meet the crime.

In the end, the best way for this to work is to divide the region into a nightmare of boroughs and districts and divisions, allow each section its own holding-area for local crimes that require some detainment, and to ensure that each infraction is fairly administered. You're wanting to Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Evil in this instance.

Zeful
2009-01-24, 03:01 AM
Alright, there are a few things to be asked:
How large is the kingdom in terms of population, population density, and density of communities (that is, is the kingdom a metropolitan kingdom that contains little rural land, a large central population with villages outside of varying density and enough rural area, or is it mainly rural with some main pockets of villages, and the capital?)
How expectant are you of a guard to follow EVERY letter of the law? Are some more lax than another, are some reasonable, or are they all just pricks about this?
What is the reason for the existence of punishment?1) This is probably the most populous country in the setting as well as the most organized (others being similar to city-states).
2) Guards are not above the law. Penalties for both groups are twice what is expected from the common man. Sympathetic guards are likely to not arrest or report minor things, or in cases of theft (like Aladdin/orphans stealing food) pay the damaged party themselves and if very charitable, work something out with the thief.
3) To reinforce the common ideal of the Government.


As stated before, prison systems are impressively expensive, requiring a massive drain on the economy unless 1). privatized, in which case the quality of incarceration will vary, 2). is made possible by a heavy tax on the populace, 3). is paid for by the fines paid for criminal acts. There is a pitfall for the latter-most option: The lower class won't be able to pay the fines, and chances are, will be forced to menial labor, which breaks more or less even once paid in full.The longer this thread goes, the more menial labor for small things (littering, leaving one's horse untied and such) makes more sense than incarceration.


Prisons of the olden times were reserved for criminals of the upper class, the execution or punishment of whom would result in massive political reciprocation: Enough to start a war. Lesser crimes could be paid on various methods--look at the Code of Laws of Hammurabi. Now, this is a fantasy setting, which gives you a lot of freedom. You don't want to emulate the past, which is fine, however looking at historical forms of punishment gives you a spring board to determine how to handle things. Some of Hammurabi's laws were pretty cruel. But I understand the point.


Remember these two points: 1). Not every crime is going to be given a punishment from a lenient guard. 2). Because you are lawful does not make you immune from corruption.

You listed littering has having 7 hours of jail time and 30 gp fine. Which is fine if you're an adventurer or noble--you could probably even get out of jail through a bail, a bribe, or simply convincing the guard that you have no time for this, that you're very important, and detaining you would be detrimental to the community because of where you are going. If you have enough clout, you won't have to make a Bluff check to find out. As a commoner? You'll serve jail time and work the menial labor, because paying is not an option. At 1 sp/day, a 6-day work week out of a seven-day week, we're looking at 50 weeks of menial labor. You'll see almost a year in menial labor, and if you run a shop, you will more than likely lose it (maybe the state will seize it on lack of proper tax payment because, which may incur MORE time) or be taken over by competitors.

A lawful neutral community would run the punishment of a crime to be fair compared to the crime. Unless your littering caused 30 gp of damages to the city, paying 30 gp wouldn't be fair. It could spell financial ruin for the lower class, and the upper class wouldn't balk at it--30 gp is 30 gp. I'd recommend the task of menial labor to be the baseline of the crime, that is, an eye for an eye without taking an eye: If someone litters, they are sentenced to 1 day of community service, picking up trash. There is no reason why the state would burden itself for 7 hours of prison for a littering criminal. Nor is there a reason why the state would expect 50 weeks of a type of labor that does not match the crime. I was aiming for the punishment to be slightly worse than what your being punished for.


[Y]ou could probably even get out of jail through a bail, a bribe, or simply convincing the guard that you have no time for this, that you're very important, and detaining you would be detrimental to the community because of where you are going.I just need to address this specifically. Which is highly unlikely at best. Sweeping an lawful arrest under the rug without extenuating circumstances (like the orphans I mentioned earlier) will result with the guard taking twice (or more depending on what your crime is) the punishment you would have received. It's barely ever worth it to let someone go from a guard's point of view.


Such an expectation would make the state run towards Lawful Evil: It deprives those who cannot are faced with a citation of their livelihood, even on the most basic of crimes, while inconveniencing those on top.Compelling point, I'll ease back on the punishment.


One must also realize that a lawful neutral community would have an appeals system: Am I truly guilty of littering, one could ask the state, and seek to have the charges dropped or reduced. An option if you have a lawyer or a good rhetor as a retainer, but you'd only have a retainer if you were a patron (in a Romanesque setting) or a noble (in a more medieval setting)--more than likely, in a medieval setting, a court or a jury would be more inclined to hear a convincing and entertaining argument--generally, the more flamboyant and robust the argument, the more truth it MUST have. This is true of Italy from the time of the Romans to World War 2. Even today's courts, a lawyer must be good at rhetoric--not only must state an argument to be without counter-argument, but also well-stated and appropriately understood by the jury. While flamboyance makes for an entertaining trial, we view it as unprofessional. Not the masses of rural Europe, however.Since a LN community would focus on equality/fairness, the job of a barrister (or barred lawyer) would be the sole purview of the state so that all classes would have access to legal representation. Their wages would be paid by the state and bribery of a lawyer/other state official would be a very serious crime, such that it would be often in the lawyer's best interest to turn you in for bribery rather than accept the bribe.


The upper class wins in such a system, while the poor invariably loses. The best way to handle this is to simply allow for the compensation of the crime to match the crime directly. A theft requires the returning of the goods, or a payment equal to the value of the goods stolen if they cannot be recovered, and perhaps some time served.Was my intention, though I get overzealous sometimes.


Serving time doesn't have to be a prison. The in-processing and out-processing could take longer than the prison sentence in some instances, depending on the amount of paperwork involved, checking the borough and district records for unpaid fines or warrants for their arrest, double checking any inconsistencies in the records (one borough states he had paid the fine, but no receipt was issued; another borough states he's wanted for the violation of a similar, yet unrelated crime, but the notes are unclear as to whether or not he is without a doubt the suspect and the witness who reported it has since passed away, while another says he was tried and executed, ad nauseum). A simple pillory might suffice, despite how close it runs to capital punishment. Revoking privileges to certain areas of a town might be called. House arrest. The list goes on, but the punishment must meet the crime.Pillory? What's that? Yeah bookkeeping would be insane, I'll think about that.


In the end, the best way for this to work is to divide the region into a nightmare of boroughs and districts and divisions, allow each section its own holding-area for local crimes that require some detainment, and to ensure that each infraction is fairly administered. You're wanting to Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Evil in this instance.That would probably be the best bet overall.