Religious Childhood [Feat]

[JellyPooga]

One of the things from Libris Mortis I really liked was the Pale Master PrC. However, it really doesn't agree with the Sorcerer class (no Knowledge (Religion)). Looking in Races of Destiny, there is a Feat ('City Slicker' I think) that makes certain skills always class for you. In that line of thought -

Religious Childhood
For one reason or another, religion is part of your life. maybe you were an orphan, brought up by a church or maybe your parents were very devout.
Prerequisites: Non-Chaotic Alignment, 1st Level
Benefit:Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (religion) and Sense Motive are always class skills for you.

Thought? Suggestions? The feat in Races of Destiny gave 4 skills as always class and required 1st level and I think the (human) subtype (though I'm not sure about that last bit). I designed the feat so that a sorcerer coulfd more easily get into the Pale Master Prc, but I think it makes for a good Roleplay element for any character without them having to multiclass into Cleric and get the spells and turn undead, etc.(the Religious Fighter who doesn't actually have any divine powers, but still knows all that a Cleric would, or the Rogue who steals from the rich to benefit his church, or whatever)

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I don't really understand the non-chaotic part. Chaotic characters could have had childhoods worshipping chaotic gods afterall.

And would a sorcerer make a good pale master? I've heard sorcerers aren't good necromancers. But I dunno...

[JellyPooga]

I threw the Non-chaotic part in because the skills it gives access to are better than the ones that City Slicker give you, in my opinion. I also imagined that although you could be a worshipper of a chaotic deity, your upbringing is likely to be very strict (what with enforced religion lessons) - which is unlikely to produce chaotic personalities. Though I suppose that it could be wavered.

Sorcerers probably don't make very good Pale Masters, and they make even worse ones if they start having to multiclass to meet the prerequisites. Kind of why I thought up the feat - to make it worthwhile being a Sorcerer/Pale Master.

[Caelestion]

Why the required non-chaotic alignment? I think four skills is too many, even for an effective "regional feat". Mark it as a regional/heritage feat, so that the character gives up all other similar feats to take it at 1st-level (only), and then give Heal, Knowledge: Religion and Profession: Priest as permanent class skills, with a +1 racial bonus if you have any of those specific skills at 1st-level.

[SilveryCord]

Well, if every religiously raised child turned into a priest, the Catholic church wouldn't be having problems, would they?
I think it's fine as-is. It's hardly 'overpowered'.

[Triaxx]

I don't know. If I'm a patron of an evil god, I'm not typically going to turn to diplomacy as my main method of convincing.

Why not make Intimidate a class skill for evil characters?

[Eighth_Seraph]

I agree with Mr. Cord. The feat seems balanced, but I don't see the reasoning behind having Sense Motive as a benefit for this. What I do like is that Knowledge (Religion) can be a class skill for characters other than clerics and paladins now. This makes it possible to have a devout fighter, without turning him into a paladin.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Actually, Monks have Knowledge (religion).

[Eighth_Seraph]

Do they? I wouldn't expect a monk to take this feat then, as she's only be getting Heal as a new class skill, I think. Monks do have Diplomacy, don't they?

[Caelestion]

Well, there's an official feat that gives you one permanent class skill and an almost-official feat that gives you two permanent class skills, both of your choice. Four skills, even pre-selected ones, is too many.

[JellyPooga]

Like I say, I based it off of City Slicker (Races of Destiny) which gives 4 skills as permanent class skills, so I wanted 4 to be in there. I immediately thought of a religious upbringing being a good one (hence diplomacy and heal rather than intimidate), but maybe it could be split into separate feats along the lines of:

Religious Childhood (Good) - requires good/neutral alignment - Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (religion) and Sense Motive

Religious Childhood (Evil) - requires evil/neutral alignment - Intimidate, Knowledge (religion) and Sense motive

I purposely give Evil less skills because Intimidate has combat connitations. Then again, most characters that would take this feat get Intimidate as class skill anyway (fighter, barbarian, rogue - only actually benefits Sorcerer fully)...hmm

I like Sense Motive being in there because having a knowledge of someones religion gives you a good understanding on why they think/act the way they do. To me, Sense Motive should get a synergy from Knowledge (religion), but that goes beyond the realm of this particular feat.

I wouldn't see Proffession (priest) in there at all. Just because your parents were very strict or you had an interest in your deity or whatever, doesn't automatically make you a priest. Being a priest (i.e. Cleric or Expert for "non-holy powers" priests ) makes you a priest.

[Pegasos989]

I am quite certain that follower of Nerull or similar evil god of secrets and knowledge could use diplomacy to convert people.

Then again, I don't know why followers of many good gods would be exceptionally trained in diplomacy.

I would say that don't have alignment restrictions and have it give knowledge(religion) and +2 on diplomacy rolls when dealing with someone worshipping the same god or something? (or on the priests of the same god if you think that it would be too strong)

[Caelestion]

Then why do very strict parents or religious zeal make you good at being nice to people or being able to tell when someone is lying? Knowledge (Religion) is a given, as is Heal if you spent any time around infirmaries.

[JellyPooga]

O.k. whole story:

I design a Feat to give a character access to Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill. So, we have:

Religious Childhood - Knowledge (religion) is always a class skill for you.

Looking in Races of Destiny, there's a Feat that gives 4 skills as always being class. I think "Oh crap, my feat's way under par". Having a think about the sort of upbringing that would give an ingrained knowledge of religion I come up with tow possibles - 1)Orphan brought up in a church sponsered orphanage, or 2)very devout parents. I then think:
1) Evil deities are not going to sponser an orphanage, it's just not their thing ("I am the god of Death and Murder! All fear me and all bow before my might!... oh, by the way, lets look out for all those homeless kids, make a note of that...where was I?...oh yeah Quail before my awsome power of destruction!")
2) Similar to 1). Parents that will indoctrinate a child with their deities scriture are more likely to be good/lawful inclined. Evil parents either abandon their kids or treat them badly or teach them to be evil, not so much the whole religious indoctrination thing.

So that leaves me with the thought that the child is going to be given strict (good)moral lessons - that means something along the lines of Diplomacy. After all, Diplomacy is the art of being nice to people so that they might do stuff for you (sort of).

Given that they have been taught Diplomacy, what goes hand in hand with Diplomacy? Knowing how peoples reactions affect what you should say next. Sense Motive. Given that knowing about a persons religion tells you a lot about that person, this fits because Knowledge (religion) is already part of the package.

Now I've got one hole to fill (remember that I'm trying to get to the same level as City Slicker, with 4 skills as always class). What generally fits in, from the remaining skills, to this overall description of a Religious Childhood? Looking down the list, very little. Given that the child is most likely to be good inclined (if not in alignment), Heal is a good thing (and a fairly low-powered skill to boot) and slots in nicely to round off the feat.

But wait, I don't want to restrict it only to those of good alignment. After all, a child with a very strict upbringing might rebel against the ideals of their tutors and turn from the path of light, to the dark side. But looking at the list of skills, they seem somewhat better (but not that much so that it warrents taking one out) than the ones granted by City Slicker. Having a think, I come to the conclusion that someone with such a strict upbringing may well rebel against the ideals they have been taught, but there will still be something of it deep within them. I don't want to restirict the evil from taking it, nor the neutral (cos that would be absurd). A strict childhood is by defintion lawful, so banning lawful characters is out. That just leaves Chaotic. Wait a minute, that fits just right. Although they may rebel against he principles and turn to evil, the child is still going to think in a certian frame of mind that seems more lawful than anything else, so banning Chaotic characters from taking the feat.. just fits.

Given that it's a childhood thing, restirct it to 1st level characters and you have the feat presented in the OP.

I hope that explains why I put the features of the Feat in to it. If anyone has a thought that I haven't considered (the above is pretty much my entire thought process on the subject), please tell an I'll reconsider some aspects.

Thinking about the comments already made, specifically

I would say that don't have alignment restrictions and have it give knowledge(religion) and +2 on diplomacy rolls when dealing with someone worshipping the same god or something? (or on the priests of the same god if you think that it would be too strong)
+2 on diplomacy with followers of the same faith is, if anything, too weak. Perhaps if it was something like:

Religious Childhood
For one reason or another, religion is part of your life. maybe you were an orphan, brought up by a church or maybe your parents were very devout.
Prerequisites: Non-Chaotic Alignment, 1st Level
Benefit:Knowledge (religion) is always class skills for you. You recieve a +2 bonus on Knowledge (Religion) checks regarding one faith and a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks with followers of that faith.

Although that gives a total of +6 points of bonus' as well as a permanent class skill, the skill bonus only applies to one faith, which is pretty limiting given the number if gods there are in the D&D multiverse. I specifically make it one faith (and not your own faith) because although you know a lot about the faith that you were taught as a child, you might not neccesarily follow it as an adult.

[Triaxx]

This gives me an idea for a sister feat.

Commands of War
Prerequisites:Opposing Alignment of Selected Deity, 1st level.
Benefit: Knowlede (Religion) is a class skill, focusing on the knowledge of your opposing religion. You recieve a +2 bonus on Knowledge (Religion) checks regarding one faith and a +2 bonus on Intimidate and Will checks against followers of that faith.

Use it for Paladins, or Monks, when fighting followers of that Religion. So a follower of St. Cuthbert would have to be Neutral Good, to oppose Vecna's followers.

[Maerok]

One of the things from Libris Mortis I really liked was the Pale Master PrC. However, it really doesn't agree with the Sorcerer class (no Knowledge (Religion)).

Yay! A fellow PM fan. I'd like to try Dread Necromancer 5/Pale Master 10 someday. But that's the only reason I'd buy Heroes of Horror at the moment. I never use a sorceror, usually Necromancer 5/Pale Master 10/Wizard 5 or Archmage 5. That 1 extra level needed for a sorceror just gets in the way for my builds. (Plus Wizard gives extra feats) But I would rather use a more impromptu spellcaster than the wizard for that creepy voodoo feel.

[Caelestion]

I like that feat now, Marrik. It's restricted but powerful and, above all, has a self-consistent theme.

[JellyPooga]

^ Yay! Thanks all. If anyone has any other suggestions, please make them, but I think I'll go with the one that I last posted (I like the look of that sister feat too...)

[Triaxx]

Thank you. The only question I wonder, is if you're a Druid, or other True Neutral, who do you oppose? Is it self opposing? Or does it oppose only other neutral alignments? Having it oppose all other alignments would be over powered.

[FreeRangeOyster]

I suppose there's a chance that issue might arise, but I don't really see a true neutral "opposing" anyone. It doesn't fit their nature. If law and chaos, good and evil don't really matter or need to be kept in balance, there is no apparent basis for a feud or vendetta, which this feat seems to imply.

[Triaxx]

True, but on consideration, a True Neutral would feud with Lawful good, and Chaotic evil, because they are serving goals working against a True Neutrals stated goal of absolute balance.