[campaign] Elemental planes influenced by emotion

[HellFencer]

Alright, I am currently developing a new campaign setting, where there is a material plane, 4 elemental planes, and 4 sort of ethereal / dreamlike planes.


Background:
My idea for magic is that it is drawn from one of these 8 planes, with arcane coming from the elementals, and divine coming from the ethereals. What makes these elemental planes different is that they are influenced by certain emotions displaced among the inhabitants of the material plane. Thus, they should not be called elemental planes; I am merely calling them that out of convenience.

Below the material plane, in the sub-cardinal directions (northeast-west, southeast-west), lie the psuedo elemental planes. I say this because the elements are only side effects of the plane's effects. Each plane corresponds to a different set of emotions, and then transforms those emotions into a physical reality. Each of these planes has a doubled effect though; one part responds to the positive side of emotion, whereas the other responds to the negative. Thus, these planes represent a mixed hybrid of positive and negative energy, which allows for powerful beings to exert their will upon its shape. At the very least, the side of the certain emotion that a person, or group of persons (such as a party, or town) most resembles / believes in, will automatically affect the area of the plane they are currently in.

The planes are as follows: The fiery plane of wrath and passionate love, the endless sea of sorrow and expression, the airy mists of hope and fear, and the crags of joy and wracking despair that tower in the skies. In these planes, there is a different alignment. No longer based on good or evil, a being that enters this realm is ruled now by the dual emotions of the plane. This will cause some contradiction, but that is to be expected. If a person were to focus their emotions towards a certain side, the area around them would change correspondingly (getting extremely angry on the Plane of Wrath causes blistering fires to rise from the ground, etc.). This can be a useful tactic, but can also affect the psyche of the person that abuses this power, as some of the power seeps into them, and transforms their core beliefs and emotions. Each person here has a "Domination Rating" based on attitude, alignment, current emotion, and charisma. This is represents their ability to meld the environment around them when in these planes.

Should a person cast a magic with a certain intent, there is a chance to have the corresponding emotion taint the caster for a number of days equal to spell level. This represents the planes taking their toll on the caster, and the role of a bridge that the caster must play in order to bring the magic between planes. These emotions range from weak to overwhelming, depending on intent, force, power, and overlapping castings. A mage may cast a fireball, and be tainted with an overall short temper for three days, or it could be a concentrated burst of rage and intoleration of others for an entire single day. (I have yet to figure out the mechanic to determine whether you are affected by the spell or not. Maybe just a caster check DC 10+spell level?) Over time, these emotions leave a residue on the caster's soul, permanently affecting them towards a certain emotion. High level fire mages tend to be filled with unquenchable anger and irrational hate. (I'm thinking of basing all this on a point based system; for every level in a mage class, you gain a point towards that certain emotion. Nothing concrete on this yet, though)


[hr]
Question for criticism:
I am wondering if it is fair (and fun) to force a mage to be affected by the magic he casts? Think of it as a karma thing; you summon up the wrathful energies of a fireball, and unless you properly dismiss the emotions brought on by the energy (with a roll of some kind), you will be affected by it.

I realize this may spurn some players from the casting classes, or from certain spells, but it makes sense in the terms that I have set forth. I would appreciate opinions and criticisms, as well as how to make it better.

[HellFencer]

Edited topic for clarity.

I would appreciate what others have to think about this topic, even if its just to say "this is boring", though I do ask that you would explain why its boring, or whatever.

Thank you.

[Shazzbaa]

As long as people know ahead of time how magic is going to work, that could be an interesting addition to character building -- "I want a kind of hot-tempered character, so I'll play a fire mage," where the sort of character you want to be would affect the sort of magic you had.

Though I think quantifying and requiring certain emotions could be a source of a lot of difficulty, particularly if you and your player don't agree on how an air mage with five points of fear should act.

Now then, mechanics aside, as this isn't really a mechanics stage yet, and I'm a storyteller first, gamer second....

A question -- can you decide for yourself which emotion you're using? For example, if your fire mage has a bit of a temper and casts largely out of anger, then he would obviously be tainted in the way you describe... but could you also have a passionate fire mage, who casts for a love of the art with no particular malice, who becomes tainted with an impatient passion that undermines his rational logic wih strong emotion and makes his decisions hasty and perhaps even reckless? Or would a fire mage kind of hold both sides of the coin -- capable of both passionate rage and passionate love? I'm rather partial to both sides of the coin, since I can see a mage drawing on both emotions of the plane to cast in different situations.

Thing is, only the Fiery Plane and the Endless Sea really would work with the "both sides of the coin," interpretation, as they wouldn't create opposing personalities, whereas the other two hold contradictions. A fire mage could be simply passionate, be it for good or for ill, and a water mage would be extremely artistic (you know, like a tortured artist? The stereotype is often true -- it's alarming how many artists have unstable lives or emotional problems). However, you can't have a personality easily tend towards both joy and sorrow (unless they're being passionate, but we already used that), or both hope and fear (those truly tend to eliminate each other).

If you don't mind a slight critique of the idea, would it be possible to alter the last two (the Airy Mists and the Towering Crags) to be closer to "two sides of a coin" rather than antonyms? Come to that, while the Airy Mists do make sense to me as they are (both hope and fear being somewhat... evanescent emotions), I've never seen the element of earth or towering cliffs as evoking joy or despair, so I would wonder about changing that one as well.

My first thoughts in regards to changing the Airy Mists' and Towering Crags' emotions would to make them focus on two sides of a single emotion. My thoughts:
Joy could come from the Airy Mists -- Happy, hopeful, excited -- but, in accordance with the nature of air, flighty, unfocused, unable to concentrate on the problems at hand. Thus the Airy Mists would be, in a word, carefree.
The Towering Crags are more difficult for me because I tend to see earth being steadfast, stable, and unswayed by strong emotion, which may contradict with your wanting each plane to focus on an emotion (though I could easily see this tainting an earth mage, in that his passions becomes dulled in favour of a cold rational, or possibly even pessimism). You could bounce off that idea and make an earth mage focused, but close-minded. Essentially, the OCD to balance the ADD of the Airy Mists. X3

Then you've got the elements as their traditional opposites -- the bluntly, passionately emotional fire versus the subtlely expressive water; and the flighty, hopefully carefree air versus the focused, pessimistic and stable earth. Each element would still have, essentially a "good" side (passion, artisticness, happiness, stability) and a "bad" side (anger, sadness, irresponsibility, close-mindedness), but they'd be two sides of the same coin.

OR you could keep them just as they are. ;) But either way, I am curious whether you choose which side of the emotion fuels your fire, as it were, or if you automatically have access to both sides of it in your personality (so that your personality eventually resembles more closely the energy of the plane itself).

[HellFencer]

As long as people know ahead of time how magic is going to work, that could be an interesting addition to character building -- "I want a kind of hot-tempered character, so I'll play a fire mage," where the sort of character you want to be would affect the sort of magic you had.

Though I think quantifying and requiring certain emotions could be a source of a lot of difficulty, particularly if you and your player don't agree on how an air mage with five points of fear should act.
True enough, this will be a hard aspect to force upon players. And I would definitely let them know ahead of time. However, in doing this sort of magic, I would require veyr good roleplayers in order to accept such changes with grace and be able to act upon them with appropriate importance.


Now then, mechanics aside, as this isn't really a mechanics stage yet, and I'm a storyteller first, gamer second....
As am I, which is why I want to make sure that forcing this kind of roleplaying upon people is fair.


A question -- can you decide for yourself which emotion you're using? For example, if your fire mage has a bit of a temper and casts largely out of anger, then he would obviously be tainted in the way you describe... but could you also have a passionate fire mage, who casts for a love of the art with no particular malice, who becomes tainted with an impatient passion that undermines his rational logic wih strong emotion and makes his decisions hasty and perhaps even reckless? Or would a fire mage kind of hold both sides of the coin -- capable of both passionate rage and passionate love? I'm rather partial to both sides of the coin, since I can see a mage drawing on both emotions of the plane to cast in different situations.
An interesting question that I had not taken into consideration. I was thinking that a mage would be affected by both sides of such magic, as I said before: "A mage acts as a bridge between the current plane, and the plane from which they are casting." Thus, they would have a potential to be affected by whatever emotion comes from that certain plane.


Thing is, only the Fiery Plane and the Endless Sea really would work with the "both sides of the coin," interpretation, as they wouldn't create opposing personalities, whereas the other two hold contradictions. A fire mage could be simply passionate, be it for good or for ill, and a water mage would be extremely artistic (you know, like a tortured artist? The stereotype is often true -- it's alarming how many artists have unstable lives or emotional problems). However, you can't have a personality easily tend towards both joy and sorrow (unless they're being passionate, but we already used that), or both hope and fear (those truly tend to eliminate each other).
I'm not sure whether I want contradicting emotions or not. I like the idea of a person switching emotions from side to side, however, I also like the idea of having the two emotions be "mixable" (a fiery passion and hatred at the same time).


If you don't mind a slight critique of the idea, would it be possible to alter the last two (the Airy Mists and the Towering Crags) to be closer to "two sides of a coin" rather than antonyms? Come to that, while the Airy Mists do make sense to me as they are (both hope and fear being somewhat... evanescent emotions), I've never seen the element of earth or towering cliffs as evoking joy or despair, so I would wonder about changing that one as well.

My first thoughts in regards to changing the Airy Mists' and Towering Crags' emotions would to make them focus on two sides of a single emotion. My thoughts:
Joy could come from the Airy Mists -- Happy, hopeful, excited -- but, in accordance with the nature of air, flighty, unfocused, unable to concentrate on the problems at hand. Thus the Airy Mists would be, in a word, carefree.
The Towering Crags are more difficult for me because I tend to see earth being steadfast, stable, and unswayed by strong emotion, which may contradict with your wanting each plane to focus on an emotion (though I could easily see this tainting an earth mage, in that his passions becomes dulled in favour of a cold rational, or possibly even pessimism). You could bounce off that idea and make an earth mage focused, but close-minded. Essentially, the OCD to balance the ADD of the Airy Mists. X3
I DO like the different aspects you have come up with. I'll have to think more on them.


Then you've got the elements as their traditional opposites -- the bluntly, passionately emotional fire versus the subtlely expressive water; and the flighty, hopefully carefree air versus the focused, pessimistic and stable earth. Each element would still have, essentially a "good" side (passion, artisticness, happiness, stability) and a "bad" side (anger, sadness, irresponsibility, close-mindedness), but they'd be two sides of the same coin.
I don't see how happiness and irresponsibility are two sides to the same coin, for instance. ???


OR you could keep them just as they are. ;) But either way, I am curious whether you choose which side of the emotion fuels your fire, as it were, or if you automatically have access to both sides of it in your personality (so that your personality eventually resembles more closely the energy of the plane itself).
In responding to this, I had a further idea of simply having the "mixable" emotions as you have stated above, fight over dominancy of a mage. Thus, you can have a mage that casts from all spells allowable (fire, earth, air, water) and have them affect (or try to affect) the mage on a spell-by-spell basis.

OR, a mage would be able to focus his efforts towards a single element / emotion, and thus be more affected by (or less with proper training).

Other ideas:
I had a thought that instead of saying that a mage is affected by the emotion of the type of magic he uses, perhaps he simply has small tendencies towards it sometimes? I am still very much in the air on this topic.
[hr]
I REALLY appreciate the input, and welcome more that people have.

[Shazzbaa]

I don't see how happiness and irresponsibility are two sides to the same coin, for instance. ???
Ahh, sorry. That was based upon my thought of the Airy Mists being connected to a sort of "carefree" emotion -- thus you'd get a happy outlook/attitude, but also a sort of lack of caring about serious problems (to go with the flightiness I perceived Air as possibly having) which I interpreted there as irresponsibility, because I was tired of using the word "flighty." But that's the idea I was going for; sorry for confusion. ^^;

Obviously, you could use whatever emotions fit in your mind; these were just ideas I had.


In responding to this, I had a further idea of simply having the "mixable" emotions as you have stated above, fight over dominancy of a mage. Thus, you can have a mage that casts from all spells allowable (fire, earth, air, water) and have them affect (or try to affect) the mage on a spell-by-spell basis.

OR, a mage would be able to focus his efforts towards a single element / emotion, and thus be more affected by (or less with proper training).
Huh, now for some reason I totally didn't think about the posibility of mages casting from more than one element. *laughs*

I'm tempted to say that in a campaign with this kind of a feel to it, the system should be such that the phrase "Jack of all trades, master of none," should apply to any caster who tries to use every element.

That is, that if a caster truly dedicated himself to one plane of energy, he'd have access to a great power... but he'd run the risk of that element's related emotion overcoming him. Whereas, a caster who never dedicated himself to any particular plane would probably only have slight fluctuations in mood or attitude if a spell lingered now and then, but he'd never run the risk of the extreme personality alterations of a dedicated caster; however, he'd also never have true mastery over an element.

Personally, I would want to set up the magic system (those who are better with mechanics can give ideas for how to do this if you like the thought) so that it's difficult for a mage to "spread himself out," so to speak, so that you can have elemental versatility at the cost of power, or "put all your points" into one element, and master it.

This would make it so that a very powerful mage would be in serious danger of becoming a representation of the plane he draws from, rather than a messy conglomerate of warring emotions. I can see the idea of an air/water mage who slips from happiness into depression based on what spell she last cast being fun, and it seems you like the idea of the conflict... but I, personally, would restrict it so that drawing from multiple elements will never give you access to some of the more powerfully emotion-affecting spells -- for some reason I don't like the idea of an extremely powerful mage going from THE VERY EMBODIMENT of the Endless Sea to THE VERY EMBODIMENT of the Airy Mists after a series of spells.

Does this make sense? I'm not sure I've explained myself well here.


Other ideas:
I had a thought that instead of saying that a mage is affected by the emotion of the type of magic he uses, perhaps he simply has small tendencies towards it sometimes? I am still very much in the air on this topic.
I dunno, I really like the idea that the more you play with fire, the more like fire you become, to the point where a caster who is unable to or doesn't control it becomes a virtual embodiment of his elemental plane... the more powerful he becomes the more he must struggle to control it. But that's me. ^^;

[Fredderf]

Wow. Very flavorful. I like the concept, and I can easily see how air is related, fear and hope can be similar-ish, but the complete opposites of joy and despair bother me a bit. Perhaps you could use a different emotion there and save the other for one of the divine planes?

I also don't understand how you will choose between which of the two conflicting emothions will efect your character. I don't forsee any mage saying "I pationately fling my fireball at the orc," rather than being bent on killing the orc instead. Will it be a 50/50 on which of the conflicting sides will effect you or something? Otherwise the caster may feel angry when casting an earth spell and, well you get my point.

I really do like the idea though. Could be pretty darn cool. I would'nt make any effect last for days though. Maybe a day tops. A high level spell shouldn't make you change forever, but maybe slightly over a period of time.

Just my thoughts.

[Shazzbaa]

Sorry for posting so much on here, but I do have a quick question--

Will there be mechanical evidence of the, essentially, "emotional residue" of spellcasting, or will that be strictly a roleplaying trait?

[HellFencer]

I LOVE the notice this has gotten and you have helped me alot, however I was in a car accident and life got hectic. I will respond to this stuff as soon as I can.

--- WATCH THIS SPOT FOR A POST ---

EDIT: post below

Alright, I like the idea of the generalist not having access to some of the more powerful spells, but a focused mage suffering the effects of their plane more. I think I will have feats that give you focus over one element of your choosing, thus allowing higher spell access. Perhaps a generalist is only allowed up to 6th or 7th level slots, and a focused mage gets all the way up to 9th?

Also, suppose that a focused mage sacrifices knowledge and power in an "opposing" element when they choose to focus. Thus, a fire focused mage would have access to 9th level fire spells, 7th level earth and air spells, and 5th level water spells. Sound ok?

You would only be allowed to focus once, just like a school specialized wizard in standard D&D may only choose one school of focus.

Nextly, a generalist would perhaps only suffer a minor chance to contract an "elemental taint", and a focused mage incurs a much larger chance for their chosen element, and a much smaller chance for their opposing. For example, a generalist has a 5% chance per spell to gain a taint from that element for X hours (X being the spell level), and a fire mage has a 10% chance on fire spells, 5% on earth and air spells, and 2% chance on water spells. How's that?

Lastly a focused mage would receive a free Spell Focus (element) feat upon choosing an element, and a generalist would perhaps gain a partial spell resistance (3-5), to show their ability to shrug off any element?

Zombie:
I see your point. Perhaps I will change each elemental plane to be more like a single emotion, with positive and negative effects, much like what Shazzbaa was saying earlier. Thus, passion and hate can coexist, as can hope and flightiness. Then, when a mage casts a spells and is tainted, he will, for instance, become irrationally hateful, irritable, and will defend the things he passionately believes in with violence. He would also give in to his overall emotions moreso when it comes to the things he cares for most (lover, racism, etc).

In this way, you won't have to try to cast a fireball out of passion. Sure, it could happen, if done merely in defense of a lover, but that's pretty rare.

Shazzbaa:
Don't worry about posting too much in here. That's why I put this topic up, was for people to express their ideas.

As for a emotional residue, I was thinking that it would be partially both. It would require a good roleplayer to take on their "emotionally tainted responsibilities", but then they would also suffer bonuses to certain skills/checks, and negatives to others. For instance, a hate filled mage would have NO patience for a negotiation, and would demand things be done their way (negatives to diplomacy, but positives to intimidate, for instance).

[Grim Greyscale]

One thing I've noticed is: You've put all this effort into these elemental planes, right? But the material plane seems to be getting no love at all, and Planar Travel spells were, last time I checked, 5th level spells at the least. So, I think it'd probably be a better idea to just scrap the material plane in this gameworld, and set it entirely inside the other planes. While it means there is no way for players to escape these emotion-altering magicks, it means you can feasibly start the campaign at a lower level without a huge backstory or something. Imbalances in campaigns can cause problems, as I have found from my current one (yay building a campaign with little-to-know knowledge of the rules <_<)

Some other problems: This seems to be affecting casters a lot more than melee or other classes. I realise the reasons for this, but, like I said above, imbalances between certain aspects of a campaign can cause disgruntlement. Like having a movie that is 10 minutes of awesome wrapped in an hour of suck (I'm fairly sure that's a quote...), will still, overall, suck.

Now that that's out of the way, I really like the idea you've got going here. As magic is a mental ability, it makes sense that it would to some degree be based off emotions. I might spring this on my players at some point, forcing them to actually do some roleplaying for once. I'll be keeping my eye on this thread.

[HellFencer]

One thing I've noticed is: You've put all this effort into these elemental planes, right? But the material plane seems to be getting no love at all, and Planar Travel spells were, last time I checked, 5th level spells at the least. So, I think it'd probably be a better idea to just scrap the material plane in this gameworld, and set it entirely inside the other planes. While it means there is no way for players to escape these emotion-altering magicks, it means you can feasibly start the campaign at a lower level without a huge backstory or something. Imbalances in campaigns can cause problems, as I have found from my current one (yay building a campaign with little-to-know knowledge of the rules <_<)

Some other problems: This seems to be affecting casters a lot more than melee or other classes. I realise the reasons for this, but, like I said above, imbalances between certain aspects of a campaign can cause disgruntlement. Like having a movie that is 10 minutes of awesome wrapped in an hour of suck (I'm fairly sure that's a quote...), will still, overall, suck.

Now that that's out of the way, I really like the idea you've got going here. As magic is a mental ability, it makes sense that it would to some degree be based off emotions. I might spring this on my players at some point, forcing them to actually do some roleplaying for once. I'll be keeping my eye on this thread.
True, I have put alot of effort into these planes here, but I do have plans for the other planes, especially traveling to them.

It is also true that melee, mundane type characters will be less affected by these aspects. I would like to change that... Perhaps you have some ideas?

My point for keeping a material plane around, is that without a focal plane, no other planes may interact with each other. The material plane is how each of these other planes interact, and help create it. Its a bit of a symbiotic relationship. For right now, I am just focusing on getting the elemental planes portion hammered out.

[Logain]

Well, it seems like you're put a lot of work and thought into the elemental planes, but what about the divine planes?

How were you planning on dividing them? Light, Darkness, Law and Chaos?

-Logain

[Fredderf]

I too am intrested in seeing the divine planes. I expect they will be somewhat similar?

[HellFencer]

Yes, the Ethereal planes are as such:

You have one material plane where most things live / occur, that is also the least permeable to magic effects. above this plane, is a circle of four planes, all interconnected. Starting at the north point is the plane of Dreams, which leads to the East, the plane of Pattern, which leads to the South, the plane of Void, which leads to the West, the plane of Shadows, and back to the North once more. These represent the different aspects of life, more or less, in a flowing circle. Travel to these planes is not wise, though there are tales of great wizards creating entire dominions here simply by force of will alone.

What I mean by this, is that the material plane is the most stable of all the planes, and it takes someone of a diety's power to reshape it. In the other realms, a mortal can shape the realm around him if he can exert his will strongly enough. In the Ethereal planes, this is especially true.

I had an idea to have the same sort of emotional influences upon a person that draws from these planes of energy, however I want it to be a different process, since the realms and energies are different too. I want them to be more subtle, perhaps affecting a person's psyche, rather than his emotions. Just as a mage can project his will upon the land, so can the land project its will upon the mage. I was leaning more toward moral changes rather than emotional ones.

Anyone have any further ideas?

[Logain]

So where do divine spellcasters get thier spells from? Evil from Shadow, Good from Dreams? Would these planes have emotional reflections, like the elemental planes?

-Logain

[Grim Greyscale]

So the material plane has the divine morphic trait, but all of the others have the alterably morphic trait? That's the simple way to put it, from what I can see. I suppose saying that you haven't done stuff for the material plane YET makes sense, but I would still like at least a rough explanation of whatever you've planned out. Maybe just make it a gateway dimension?

As for the planes affecting non-magic users, that will be more difficult, especially when you have to consider the divine planes are well. Now, I have some queries here: Will Arcane casters on the divine planes be affected at all, or will they just be like meleers there, and also, vice versa, will Divine casters be affected on the elemental planes? I also think you should invent some proper names for all these groups of planes, it'd make conversation so much easier. Now, back to how non-casters would be affected. I think, that they should be able to use great willpower to be able to affect the plane around them, by making some sort of check, as you stated earlier. Then, whenever they do this, they must make a will save, or be affected slightly by the emotions of that plane, as casters would be. Makes sense, really.

Now, back to the casters. Perhaps, for starters, make it only spells of 3rd level and above cause emotional problems with the mage. A ray of frost would hardly cause any damage, and thus should have little backlash. Also, rather than a caster level check, it should be a will save to avoid the emotional damage (DC=10+Spell Level?Maybe spell levelx2, or x1.5, as casters tend to have good will saves and we don't want them always succeeding). Now. Divine casters and divine planes. I think the Dream/Pattern/Void/Darkness sounds good, but doesn't really make much sense to me. I've always thought void and darkness were pretty much the same thing. So, like someone suggested earlier, based the divine planes off the four alignments, Law, Good, Chaos, Evil. I think the pattern plane can stay then, as the lawful, and the darkness one for evil. Two other shiny names would be need for Chaos and Good, though. And, whenever they cast a Lawful/Chaotic/Good/Evil spell on the corresponding plane, they must make a will save, or be slightly more inclined towards that specific alignment. (Note, that would not actually change their alignment until it happened many, many times.)

Or something.

[Zophiel]

I think the Dream/Pattern/Void/Shadow layout of the divine planes makes good sense. Here's my interpretation, which I acknowledge is likely to be different from what you had in mind. But who knows, maybe it will give you an idea or two along the way.

You mentioned in outlining these four divine planes that they represent the circle of life.

Starting with Dream, I see here a sort of coherency of thought and creation, in much the way that one's dreams (in the sense of daydreams or imaginings, at least) tend to follow some sort of internal consistency, albeit a loose one, and arguably represent thoughts of creation or semi-articulated expressions of potential. Relating this back to the cycle of life, under the cosmology of this world, life begins with consciousness; the spark of the soul that has, as yet, not physically manifested.

Moving on to Pattern, this is the manifestation of that initial spark of life that came to be, somehow, in the Dream plane. In taking form, this consciousness becomes bound more rigidly, more patterned, as it were.

The creature's life ends, and thus we come to the Void, which ideologically could represent the unknown oblivion that is death.

However, all is not lost, because seeping out of the oblivion (or perhaps distilled and purified by the void?), emerges incoherent potential into the plane of Shadow. It is a misty place, where everything is mutable and nothing is certain. Even the loose coherency of inspirations and the first sparks of living souls have not yet formed, so it's basically a big cosmic soup.

Eventually, the energies from the Shadow plane drift to the Dream plane (or the energies become too coherent for the chaos and are shunted to the Dream plane?), where they can grow and mature and become the spark of life, thus perpetuating the cycle.


Like I said, I have no idea if this is even close to what you had in mind, but this is what I imagined when you mentioned the four divine planes, so I thought I'd toss it out there in case you find it useful. :)


On the subject of the elemental planes, I think you're really on to something there. One possibility for having the planes influence even non-casters might be to have characters select a plane they are 'marked' by, in sort of a Zodiac-esque birth sign way. This could be accomplished either through Feats, in which case only characters who choose to be marked at birth are thus influenced, or could be a mandatory choice as part of the character creation process. Making it mandatory does pose complications for the 'generalist' caster, however.

And for what it's worth, I don't think it's necessarily mandatory that the planes directly influence non-casters. After all, magic itself doesn't inherently influence the life of your average fighter (in that he draws no power from it, not in the sense that he's immune to it). Some players may find it very interesting playing a non-magical character in such a setting, and thematically denizens of the world may find it desirable not to be touched by the planes. After all, those who are touched by the planes have so much potential to become slaves to those planes' emotions, whereas those free of planar influence are also free to feel and act as they wish. It's an interesting dichotomy that might make for a good element to explore, since the non-casters might envy the casters their power, while the casters envy the mundane characters their psychological liberty.

[HellFencer]

I think the Dream/Pattern/Void/Shadow layout of the divine planes makes good sense. Here's my interpretation, which I acknowledge is likely to be different from what you had in mind. But who knows, maybe it will give you an idea or two along the way.

You mentioned in outlining these four divine planes that they represent the circle of life.

Starting with Dream, I see here a sort of coherency of thought and creation, in much the way that one's dreams (in the sense of daydreams or imaginings, at least) tend to follow some sort of internal consistency, albeit a loose one, and arguably represent thoughts of creation or semi-articulated expressions of potential. Relating this back to the cycle of life, under the cosmology of this world, life begins with consciousness; the spark of the soul that has, as yet, not physically manifested.

Moving on to Pattern, this is the manifestation of that initial spark of life that came to be, somehow, in the Dream plane. In taking form, this consciousness becomes bound more rigidly, more patterned, as it were.

The creature's life ends, and thus we come to the Void, which ideologically could represent the unknown oblivion that is death.

However, all is not lost, because seeping out of the oblivion (or perhaps distilled and purified by the void?), emerges incoherent potential into the plane of Shadow. It is a misty place, where everything is mutable and nothing is certain. Even the loose coherency of inspirations and the first sparks of living souls have not yet formed, so it's basically a big cosmic soup.

Eventually, the energies from the Shadow plane drift to the Dream plane (or the energies become too coherent for the chaos and are shunted to the Dream plane?), where they can grow and mature and become the spark of life, thus perpetuating the cycle.


Like I said, I have no idea if this is even close to what you had in mind, but this is what I imagined when you mentioned the four divine planes, so I thought I'd toss it out there in case you find it useful. :)
This is almost exactly what I had in mind for these planes, and representing the aspects of life. I would have said more on them previously, but I was in a car accident last sunday and since then my brain has been a wee bit off-kilter. I hope these planes make a little more sense.

I suppose treating these as law/chaos/good/evil would work, however its just not jiving with what I had in mind. I like the fact that those criteria tend to screw with the morals of the caster.

Rix:
I like the idea of having 3rd level spells and up affect the caster, however, there should still be a bit of an effect from any amount of magic traveling through a person.

Touching on the material plane... My idea for this plane was that, number one and most important: This plane is mundane. The only thing special about it, is that it is non-magical by itself. Some consider it a place of sanctuary, where one can become lost amidst the myraid other things on the plane. Yes, it would be affected in certain ways by the other planes, and there would be portals and the like to the other planes. There would be relics of old races that came and lived long before the current inhabitants, and ruins of civilizations long dead.

Think of the material plane more as a hub, or giant marketplace for everyone to gather. Several races were created in the material plane, while others come from other places. Most monsters will hail from a different plane, as a mundane plane has no inherent magic to create such beasts.

Does this satiate your appetite for the material plane a bit more?

As I said before, the material plane can only be affected by deific power levels, whereas the other realms that revel in magic, can be willed by sheer thought of mere mortals (regardless of class) to change. In fact, this is how towns and large areas are changed and created inside the other planes. A group of likeminded people will effectively force away the unwanted emotion, and thus shape the land around them.

I thought about letting non-casters pick up certain feats that let them act as though they were casters, or some such. Regardless of your class, however, ANY person that visits an emotional plane will have the chance to be affected by that plane's taints. If there is an argument among party members on the plane of fire, the ground may crack and release magma from its depths, or both people could come to blows, even if they are best friends, or lovers. NO ONE escapes the influences when on the actual plane.


On the subject of the elemental planes, I think you're really on to something there. One possibility for having the planes influence even non-casters might be to have characters select a plane they are 'marked' by, in sort of a Zodiac-esque birth sign way. This could be accomplished either through Feats, in which case only characters who choose to be marked at birth are thus influenced, or could be a mandatory choice as part of the character creation process. Making it mandatory does pose complications for the 'generalist' caster, however.
I like this idea. A fighter, for instance, could be "Born under the sign of wrath" (or some such name), and thus be able to manipulate a small amount of fire energy, through sheer willpower. He could wreath a blade in flames, or cause a person to act as though under the influence of a charm. This has possibilities. They would still have a chance to be affected by emotional taint.


It's an interesting dichotomy that might make for a good element to explore, since the non-casters might envy the casters their power, while the casters envy the mundane characters their psychological liberty.
This is especially interesting to me. And it rings very true.

Logain:
I believe I said that clerics/priests/etc., would get their spells primarily from the Ethereal planes.

[hr]
Plane of Dreams = ideas and contradiction
Plane of Pattern = creation and logic
Plane of Void = death and placement
Plane of Shadows = unseen and "remains"

For this discussion, please refer to the "divine planes" as the Ethereal planes, the "elemental planes" as the Emotional planes, and the material plane as the Mundane plane.


Further thoughts? Please keep the comments and questions coming!

[Logain]

What do you mean by saying that the plane of Shadow is 'remains'? Or was its purpose to be vague?

-Logain

[HellFencer]

What do you mean by saying that the plane of Shadow is 'remains'? Or was its purpose to be vague?

-Logain

Like when someone dies, they leave behind things, like family members, a soul, thoughts, dreams, unfulfilled wishes; by remains, I more or less mean a shadow of a person. Almost like a replica, but possessing only the most important aspects of the now gone person. Does that make more sense? I haven't fully fleshed that out.

[HellFencer]

BUMP!

Could I have some more people add in their thoughts / concerns / criticisms / whatevers on this topic? I'm not yet comfortable with where its at, so any help is appreciated!

[HellFencer]

Bump, again. Does no one have any comments!? We were making great progress here!

*sits and waits*

[Zophiel]

I was kind of under the impression that you were going to flesh things out a little more based on the stuff that's been discussed thus far. Is there really much farther to go with what you've shared to this point? Other perspectives on it, certainly, but it doesn't necessarily look like anyone else is tossing in their two cents. Maybe they're looking for more info as well, who knows.

This is your brain child, so if you are looking for more discussion, help expanding ideas, etc., then make it known. I think that, after all the discussion so far, it might be a good idea for you to summarize things, maybe revise what you started with to whatever extent the discussion has inspired you to modify or expand on the initial concepts for the game, and then make some specific solicitations. Do you want feats? Prestige classes? Monsters? Story hooks? More cosmology? Other stuff entirely?

I think the basics for the cosmology have been hammered out sufficiently that you can write that stuff out in better detail (not final detail necessarily, but there's more to work with now), and maybe articulating your current thoughts on that stuff will help you decide where you want to go with it next. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the way I see it this is sort of a "You started this idea, so you gotta keep the ball rolling" kind of thing. So the thread has discussed one aspect of the game and touched on a couple others, but what next? There's no shortage of input, creativity, and opinions on these forums, so perhaps what's missing is direction. I don't know about anyone else, but I really like a lot of the stuff you've presented so far, and I'd really like to see more of your thoughts about it.