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Izmir Stinger
2009-01-21, 03:19 PM
Has anyone tried to run a 4E campaign where the availability of magic items was much higher or much lower than the recommended loot per level from the DMG? I am curious if 4E classes suffer similar effects to what happens in 3.x when you jack around with the amount of magic items the party gets its hands on, namely: Martial (particularly melee) type classes suffer greatly from a lack of magic weapons and armor compared to caster type classes, and the reverse is true in environments where magic items are prolific.

There are a number of key differences I see in 4th edition that makes me think it is not the case, but I am unsure because I haven't tried it. First, no numerical boosts to Ability Scores from magic items in 4E. Second, to get the most out of spells casters need a magic "weapon" - their implement - just as badly as that fighter needs his +6 greatsword. Third, feats are no longer used differently by warriors and casters because everyone draws their combat options from the same source - their class powers list - and feats are now mostly just small numerical boosts to stuff for everyone, so warriors don't have to rely as heavily on magic items for modifiers because they used up all their feats on combat "powers."

But I could be way offbase. Has any 4E DM out there loaded their party up with every wish list magic item they could fit in their greedy little slots? (that didn't come out right) Or have you told them the D&D fantasy world is suffering a credit lending crisis that has seriously depressed the economy, so they better hang on to that starting equipment?

I know that party balance vs. monsters would be wildly effected. Give a bunch of level one characters +6 weapons and armor and those 4 fire beetles won't be a threat anymore. What I want to know is if some classes get more powerful with abundant magic disproportionally to others.

I have a specific campaign idea in mind, the feasibility of which depends heavily on this. I'll post about it later once the idea is fleshed out, unless the answer is an unequivocal "YES, varying magic item rarity does unbalance the classes" in which case it won't work.

Starbuck_II
2009-01-21, 03:22 PM
Has anyone tried to run a 4E campaign where the availability of magic items was much higher or much lower than the recommended loot per level from the DMG? I am curious if 4E classes suffer similar effects to what happens in 3.x when you jack around with the amount of magic items the party gets its hands on, namely: Martial (particularly melee) type classes suffer greatly from a lack of magic weapons and armor compared to caster type classes, and the reverse is true in environments where magic items are prolific.

There are a number of key differences I see in 4th edition that makes me think it is not the case, but I am unsure because I haven't tried it. First, no numerical boosts to Ability Scores from magic items in 4E. Second, to get the most out of spells casters need a magic "weapon" - their implement - just as badly as that fighter needs his +6 greatsword. Third, feats are no longer used differently by warriors and casters because everyone draws their combat options from the same source - their class powers list - and feats are now mostly just small numerical boosts to stuff for everyone, so warriors don't have to rely as heavily on magic items for modifiers because they used up all their feats on combat "powers."

But I could be way offbase. Has any 4E DM out there loaded their party up with every list list magic item they could fit in their greedy little slots? (that didn't come out right) Or have you told them the D&D fantasy world is suffering a credit lending crisis that has seriously depressed the economy, so they better hang on to that starting equipment?

I know that party balance vs. monsters would be wildly effected. Give a bunch of level one characters +6 weapons and armor and those 4 fire beetles won't be a threat anymore. What I want to know is if some classes get more powerful with abundant magic disproportionally to others.

You'd have to ajust some monster statistics:
Because NPCs get bonuses instead of feat/magic items for the most part (the enemies can get some magic items, but again they statistics assumes you have an armor/weapon/implement near your level or higher).

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-21, 03:24 PM
I believe the accepted alternative is a +1 per half-tier "Awesome bonus" to everything.

RTGoodman
2009-01-21, 03:38 PM
Low-Wealth Setting: As Inyssius said, give players a +1 bonus to AC, defenses, and attacks at about the same levels they'd get items providing those bonuses and you could do a NO-wealth setting. Sure they miss out on item powers, but those aren't NECESSARY. I'd probably gives the boosts starting at level 2-4, and improving every 5 levels. You don't even have to change monsters if you do things that way.

High-Wealth Setting: You can load players down with stuff, but because of the limits on Item Powers per day they still wouldn't be too overpowered or anything. They'll have access to more things, but they can't use all of them - they're basically like 3.x Batman.

Aoric
2009-01-21, 03:47 PM
I'm running my 4e game on the "accelerated xp" plan - i.e., i'm giving out more xp (usually at a rate of 1.5x) because we play less frequently then what the game assumes and we don't want it to take 1 year to reach paragon tier. As a result, I'm providing loot (money and xp) at an accelerated pace, so their power matches the foes they fight (my encounters tend to be "hard" - i.e., party level +2-4).

however, i'm currently stitching together modules and adding my own stuff. The plenitude of magic items seems a little forced to me, personally, and in my own campaigns, I tend to make magic items a bit more rare/more expensive. When this game shifts towards an actual campaign of my creation, I'll lesson the frequency and availability of magic items, but also a concomitant decrease in monster encounters/powers. Either by reducing abilities or features (such as hp or some defenses, or even reducing damage dealt), or by keeping most of the encounters at "standard level" (i.e., party level +0-1) or even easy (party level -1)

6 sessions now, and the party is almost level 5.

Aoric
2009-01-21, 03:49 PM
Low-Wealth Setting: As Inyssius said, give players a +1 bonus to AC, defenses, and attacks at about the same levels they'd get items providing those bonuses and you could do a NO-wealth setting. Sure they miss out on item powers, but those aren't NECESSARY. I'd probably gives the boosts starting at level 2-4, and improving every 5 levels. You don't even have to change monsters if you do things that way.

High-Wealth Setting: You can load players down with stuff, but because of the limits on Item Powers per day they still wouldn't be too overpowered or anything. They'll have access to more things, but they can't use all of them - they're basically like 3.x Batman.

ah, interesting.. i hadn't realized there was a generally accepted plan. I like this idea, and will use it in my more low-magic setting.

RTGoodman
2009-01-21, 03:55 PM
ah, interesting.. i hadn't realized there was a generally accepted plan. I like this idea, and will use it in my more low-magic setting.

I don't think it's really in the books anywhere, but it makes sense. I DO remember one of the designers talking about it in a preview article WAY back before 4E debuted, talking about how 4E really worked a LOT better than 3.x on low-magic, low-wealth games because the items and stuff you "need" could just be replaced with a scaling bonus.

Yakk
2009-01-21, 04:52 PM
1> Include Mastercraft Armor even if you don't include magic. Use the + to determine hat level the armor should show up. (This deals with the fact that vs AC scales a tad faster, and that light armor gets stat-to-AC).

2> Either have an Awesome bonus, or (my personal favorite) increase the stat boosts. Almost everything Awesome would add to, stat boosts add to. As a side benefit, your skills no longer lag behind your attacks, making things like "intimidate vs will+10 to make someone surrender" actually work.

Instead of +8/+8/+2/+2/+2/+2, you want something like +20/+20/+14/+8/+8/+8.

This is the kind of progression you get:
4: +2 to 3 stats
8: +3 to 2 stats, +1 to rest
11: +2 to all
14: +2 to 3 stats
18: +3 to 2 stats, +1 to rest
21: +3 to all
24: +2 to 3 stats
28: +3 to 2 stats, +1 to rest

Totals: +20/+20/+14/+8/+8/+8

As a side effect, you end up with level 30 characters having strength scores that are closer to the scale of level 30 NPCs.

Now, you can back off a tad from this. Suppose you want to allow Masterwork weapons.

A Masterwork weapon grants +1 to hit flat bonus, and +1d12 damage on a critical per tier (1d12, 2d12 and 3d12 in heroic, paragon and epic respectively).

Similarly, a magic luck charm grants a +1 to all 3 non-AC defenses.

Strip that +1 out of your stat-ups, and you get:
4: +2 to 3 stats
8: +3 to 2 stats, +1 to rest
11: +1 to all
14: +2 to 3 stats
18: +3 to 2 stats, +1 to rest
21: +2 to all
24: +2 to 3 stats
28: +3 to 2 stats, +1 to rest

+18/+18/+12/+6/+6/+6
which has a pretty mathematical pattern.

...

So you have:
1> Magic armor. Works just like standard masterwork armor, but has no enchantment bonus.

2> Magic weapons. Adds +1 to hit (flat), and +1d12 critical damage per tier. The critical damage is sometimes elemental.

3> Magic Luck Charms. Adds +1 to your defenses and often to one or more skill checks (flat bonus), and can have a daily power. You can only use one such charm's daily power per day.

4> Stat increase chart ramped up.

5> Skill DCs are increased at higher levels.
Trivial: 5+2L/3 (even the incompetent have a good chance)
Easy: 10+2L/3 (if you have talent, or a hobby, you can do it)
Medium: 15+L (reliable without going all-out to min/max it)
Hard: 20+L, +2 per tier (min/maxer can reliably beat this, if they use powers)

Kurald Galain
2009-01-22, 06:14 AM
Has anyone tried to run a 4E campaign where the availability of magic items was much higher or much lower than the recommended loot per level from the DMG?

It doesn't (really) unbalance the classes, but it does cause the entire system to break down. Unless, as several people suggested already, you give characters the exact same bonuses that the items do, only don't call them "items".

That said, characters that depend on hitting (i.e. strikers) are hurt most by the lack of magic weapons; characters that depend on getting hit (i.e. defenders) are hurt most by the lack of magic armor; characters that mainly support (healers/magic-zone-creators/...) are less hurt by either. So that's a potential bit of unbalance.

Izmir Stinger
2009-01-22, 06:18 AM
So there is no reason to worry that the fighters and rangers will hog all the spotlight from the wizards and warlocks if they have high magic item availability? I'm not worried about the PCs balance with the monsters, I am worried about the PCs balance with each other.

And so should they, as they will be fighting each other in this setting.

Also, its not going to be a low wealth setting, it is going to be high wealth. It is not really even a setting - more of a worldwide event that dramatically alters the magic economy by creating massive demand for residium, to the point where none is available commercially.

Normally characters can expect one or two items above your level, a few your level and the rest of the slots filled with old stuff. In this setting, they will have 3 or more items above their level, and never have anything below their level unless they choose to hang onto something old because they like it's property or something. At least one party member will have an artifact at any given time. On top of that, they will be swimming in residium (sp?), scrolls and rituals. Disenchanting will provide a much larger portion of the item's value in residuum (varying based on skill check). I am considering adding feats that let ritual casters who know Brew potion and/or create magic item exceed level limits somewhat, as well as feats that let you get rituals early.

There is a massive sink for all this magic - the churches and various institutions of magic are buying up all the residium in the world and commissioning adventures to obtain it for them, or hinder the residium collection efforts of their rivals. Keeping magic items enhances your ability to survive their contracts, but additional benefits (especially to the PvP aspects) are made available by turning them over either as magic items or disenchanted - which is what they are going to do to it. Significant portions of the loot, or at least the only portions the party cares about, will be magic items below their level. The idea is to make obtaining residium such an overriding goal that a party encountering a rack of crappy +1 swords next to a huge pile of gold and jewels will be more excited about the swords.

Once I get it more fleshed out I will post something in homebrew - I just want to know if there are any classes that will benefit unduly from me giving them so much access to magic? If it is just a little bit, that's OK because having ritual caster as a bonus feat is also very important in this setting (to the point where fighters and rogues would consider paying two feats picking it up). But when the parties (multiple) come into conflict I want to make sure that one party isn't going to dominate the other consistently because of class imbalance. The parties will be class limited - one party will be barred from some classes, and the other will be barred from different classes, and some classes (all of the martial and some others) will be available to both.

Artanis
2009-01-22, 12:15 PM
Also, its not going to be a low wealth setting, it is going to be high wealth. It is not really even a setting - more of a worldwide event that dramatically alters the magic economy by creating massive demand for residium, to the point where none is available commercially.
In high-wealth, the opposite of Kurald Galain's analysis would hold: guys needing more to-hit would benefit more from the weapons, and guys needing higher AC would benefit more from the armor.

Izmir Stinger
2009-01-22, 01:15 PM
In high-wealth, the opposite of Kurald Galain's analysis would hold: guys needing more to-hit would benefit more from the weapons, and guys needing higher AC would benefit more from the armor.

Are there really any classes that don't need to hit? I've done minimal play testing, but it looked to me like everyone needs periodic updates to their magic weapon/implement to keep up with increased monster defenses. Even leaders need hit boosters to be effective (though not quite as much, I guess)

Armor is another issue, as in a party with a powerful and competent defender, wizards and such should only be getting hit by the odd ranged attack vs. their AC, and the most threatening stuff is vs. their other defenses. But for a lot of armor, the real power is in the healing surge rechargeable powers.

I'm also thinking about increasing magic item daily use by one per tier. Not sure on that. I intend to start the characters in the middle of the heroic their lvl 4-6.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-22, 01:26 PM
Are there really any classes that don't need to hit?
There are classes that need to hit more than other classes need it. A striker needs to hit the enemy in order to do anything. On the other hand, a healer or defender doesn't need to hit anybody in order to function, and a controller can still drop zones without needing to hit anybody.

That is why getting a top-notch magical weapon is paramount to strikers, and less important to other roles. For instance, a defender might want to give priority to magical armor.


But for a lot of armor, the real power is in the healing surge rechargeable powers.
False. Only a single "healing surge rechargeable" armor exists. Makes me wonder why they invented that rule, because it sees so little use it might as well not exist.

Hal
2009-01-22, 01:42 PM
I only have experience playing 4E, not DMing, but I'll volunteer that the biggest difference between players comes from levels, not gear.

My DM was kind enough to let me take up a companion in the form of an orc mook whose life I spared. He's now a level 1 Barbarian to the level 4 party of 6 PCs. He really can't do much of his role well, sadly. His defenses are abominable, his HP low for a striker (my cleric currently has more) and his ability to land attacks is only moderate. A +7 to hit AC is nice, but when the monsters are running around with 20+ AC, he's finding it difficult to contribute.

JackTR69
2009-01-22, 01:52 PM
I don't find that a LACK of magic items is effecting a setting that I'm currently running. I've been approximately halving the number of magic items that the party is getting, which still allows classes to get the items they need, just not much more. I would imagine that giving people more items (still of an appropriate level) wouldn't effect the balance of classes, since many of the items wouldn't directly effect every attack they make. Yes, if you give the rouge a better weapon then he should have, he will do better than he should. Same goes for fighters getting too good armor. Giving the players more good weapons to choose from won't make them more powerful, it will just give them more options.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-22, 01:53 PM
I only have experience playing 4E, not DMing, but I'll volunteer that the biggest difference between players comes from levels, not gear.
I'm afraid that's not really true. While the marketing department made a big issue out of this precise point, it turns out that any paragon level adventurer is still expected to have 10-20 pieces of magical equipment. Since many of those have powers of some kind (not to mention up to a +6 difference in dice rolls), this makes a huge difference.

Izmir Stinger
2009-01-22, 07:14 PM
False. Only a single "healing surge rechargeable" armor exists. Makes me wonder why they invented that rule, because it sees so little use it might as well not exist.

I mistyped. I meant ones that let you or your allies spend healing surges for various effects. There are a bunch of those. I was going to say something about artificers recharging magic item powers but decided to skip mentioning it - I guess the word rechargeable kind of leaked out of my brain onto my keyboard.

Artificer is one of the classes I was worried about getting unbalanced by high wealth, but it is only out as a playtest class so is likely unbalanced anyway.


I'm afraid that's not really true. While the marketing department made a big issue out of this precise point, it turns out that any paragon level adventurer is still expected to have 10-20 pieces of magical equipment. Since many of those have powers of some kind (not to mention up to a +6 difference in dice rolls), this makes a huge difference.

Oh yeah, I can see that if you don't have (or have more than) the DMG specified level appropriate wealth then the challenge level of monsters as written is going to be very inappropriate.

I guess I asked my question in a roundabout way. This is what I'm getting at:

Say you make two parties of characters with the same composition of roles (e.g. a defender, a leader, a controller and 2 strikers) but different class composition (e.g. fighter/cleric/wizard/ranger/barbarian versus paladin/warlord/druid/warlock/rogue) and load them up with the same level of wealth in magic items. The only departure you take from the rules as written is that the level of wealth you give them is significantly above their DMG recommended level of wealth. Then you take these two parties and have them fight each other to the death. Obviously the players' skill levels at character optimization and tactical reasoning is a big variable here, but assume they are all equal (and when I play test this they will be because they will all be me). Then there is allways the luck of the dice, but if you do it repeatedly that should even out. The question is:

Do you think one such party might have a higher objective chance of victory because the classes in that party gain more benefit from extra magic items compared to the classes in the other party?

If no, good job WotC!

If yes, which classes do you suspect are the weakest choices, and which are the strongest, in a high wealth environment.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-23, 04:27 AM
Do you think one such party might have a higher objective chance of victory because the classes in that party gain more benefit from extra magic items compared to the classes in the other party?

No.

I think there may be a small difference here in which classes benefit from magical items, but this is far outdone first by player skill (although there is a limit to how "skilled" one can become at D&D because it's not a highly tactical wargame) and second by the fact that some classes are simply better than others for certain tasks (i.e. the party with the TacLord in it will most likely win, because TacLords are much better at party "buffing" than clerics are).

Izmir Stinger
2009-01-23, 07:06 AM
No.

Excellent. That is what I was hoping to hear.


I think there may be a small difference here in which classes benefit from magical items, but this is far outdone first by player skill (although there is a limit to how "skilled" one can become at D&D because it's not a highly tactical wargame) and second by the fact that some classes are simply better than others for certain tasks (i.e. the party with the TacLord in it will most likely win, because TacLords are much better at party "buffing" than clerics are).

That is all fine. I'm glad you think player skill is one of the biggest variables - that is as it should be.

Anyone disagree with Kurald Galain's assessment?