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Kiero
2009-01-22, 06:40 AM
NB: This isn't a regular free-for-all anything-goes type thread. I'm going to be blunt and I'm going to be harsh in this post to help define the criteria. That means some people's favourite games will be ruled out from the very start. Sorry if that offends you, but that's life.

We're playing a Star Wars Saga Edition game right now. From the players perspective, it's fun, but I know that's not necessarily the case from the other side of the screen. Our GM has expressed a number of times that he finds it frustrating, his usual calibre of game is towards the direction of freeform. While nothing concrete has been said about a change, he has said he might just say "**** it let's run it with Wushu".

That remains an alternative, but I'd like to see what else there is out there that might work that's perhaps a little crunchier. Why? Because it's less work for the players having to be switched-on and creative all the time. And because so far I think this game has benefitted from having a degree of mechanical distinction between the characters and what they're capable of.

So to be clear, lighter than Saga Edition means no other D20 systems. It means GURPS and HERO are out from the off. It means lighter in all respects, not lighter in some areas, but crunchier in others. If it has a skill list of more than about 15 skills, it's not lighter. If it has more than three categories of special things (Saga has Feats, Talents and Force powers), it's not lighter.

It shouldn't have lots of subsystems built in, because that immediately makes it more complicated than Saga. It shouldn't have an overly involved resolution system, or involve buckets o' dice (small pools are fine, Exalted is not).

It must also be capable of handling both Force-users and non-Force-users. As in balancing the two fairly well, not either nerfing the Force, or making non-Force-users irrelevant. That means D6 is out. It must handle the Force at least as simply as Saga does. D6 with it's "Control, Sense and Alter" is out again for that reason.

Purely from my own perspective (but it might not be shared by either GM or some of the other players), I hate White Wolf's systems. So I'd prefer if people didn't recommend those.

If possible, one corebook should be enough to do the job. I don't think we're averse to indie games, if they're suited to more-than-one-shots. On the other hand, I'm not too keen on DitV's overly complicated mechanics, for reference. Stuff that tends towards the cinematic is obviously better than anything trying to be "realistic".

If it helps at all, there are five players. The PCs comprise a piratical scion of a mining clan, a Twi'lek Jedi, a scout/explorer turned Jedi, a Cerean doctor and a Force-sensetive spy/saboteur. So it must be a game that can handle that many PCs, and allow that amount of distinction. If it only allows single-concept characters (either you're a Jedi or you're not), it's out.

So heavier than Wushu, but lighter than Saga Edition. What is there?

Iku Rex
2009-01-22, 07:01 AM
Feng Shui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_Shui_(role-playing_game)) might work. It will take some work to make it fit though.

(I found a Feng-Shui-for-Star-Wars adaption here (http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/5539/fssw.html) - don't know if it's any good.)

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-22, 07:15 AM
HeroQuest from Issaries, Inc. All you need is the resolution system, which takes up a few pages. There's no mechanical difference between skills, and there's no skill lists - you can have any skill/ability you want (but Master Swordsman is no more useful than Close Combat/Swords in combat), and you can use them for anything that the GM and other players don't object to. As far as the resolution system is concerned, you could have a contest of Oratory and Punch People Dead skills. The Force would easily be handled as a set of affinities and feats - the three affinities being Alter, Control, and Sense, obviously. Nobody would be a Devotee, and everyone would have to "purchase" the Force feats normally.

You'll have to write up your own Keywords, but that's no problem at all.

Balance would exist to the degree that common sense allows. Alter / Force Thrust would be mechanically identical to Shove People Around in combat etc., but obviously the Force would be easier to use in weird ways. (I'd probably limit augmenting with the Force to one feat per contest.)

As a bonus, you get an awesome game set in the most awesome and magical fantasy setting ever. If you don't feel like playing it in the default setting after reading the book, I'll eat a shoe.

SilverSheriff
2009-01-22, 07:30 AM
You could forget about rules and just have a "No, my dude can do this" competition that 5 year olds usually play. I find the D20 system to be a very light, simple and flexible. I don't know why you would want to dumb it down any more than it is.

perhaps your DM is having trouble keeping you to a stuck course so that the game will turn out exactly the way he wants it? I'd suggest just playing on the fly, as that has turned out pretty well for some of the DMs in my group.

Edge of Dreams
2009-01-22, 07:34 AM
Fudge. (http://www.sonic.net/~rknop/Omar/fudge/FudgeSRD/)

Availiable free online as an SRD, Fudge is a system designed to let you make any system you want out of it. The size of the rules looks intimidating at first, but that's only because they actually consist of a whole bunch of variants, options, and advice for choosing the rules that best suit your playstyle, setting, and characters. I'd estimate that a final version of the rule set, once decided on by the GM and edited down, would only consist of 5 printed pages, with a little extra in your case to allow for defining how the Force works.

Why Fudge?

Simple character creation - there are Attributes (defined by the GM), Skills (any you can make up, subject to GM approval and tweaking), Gifts (benefits that aren't attributes or skills, make up your own), and Faults (like gifts, but negative). That's it. No looking through lists of feats and powers.

Balance: Fudge can be tweaked to have any kind of balance you want. For example, simply increasing the cost of force powers relative to other skills will force people to think about trade offs, because everything comes from the same pool of points at character creation.

Anywho, check out the srd. Then again, it might not be heavy enough for your tastes. It makes a great base to build on, though

Kiero
2009-01-22, 07:36 AM
Feng Shui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_Shui_(role-playing_game)) might work. It will take some work to make it fit though.

(I found a Feng-Shui-for-Star-Wars adaption here (http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/5539/fssw.html) - don't know if it's any good.)

I've done my own for Feng Shui, too. It's a possibility, but it has problems of it's own (the core mechanic being a prime one).


HeroQuest from Issaries, Inc. All you need is the resolution system, which takes up a few pages. There's no mechanical difference between skills, and there's no skill lists - you can have any skill/ability you want (but Master Swordsman is no more useful than Close Combat/Swords in combat), and you can use them for anything that the GM and other players don't object to. As far as the resolution system is concerned, you could have a contest of Oratory and Punch People Dead skills. The Force would easily be handled as a set of affinities and feats - the three affinities being Alter, Control, and Sense, obviously. Nobody would be a Devotee, and everyone would have to "purchase" the Force feats normally.

You'll have to write up your own Keywords, but that's no problem at all.

Balance would exist to the degree that common sense allows. Alter / Force Thrust would be mechanically identical to Shove People Around in combat etc., but obviously the Force would be easier to use in weird ways. (I'd probably limit augmenting with the Force to one feat per contest.)

As a bonus, you get an awesome game set in the most awesome and magical fantasy setting ever. If you don't feel like playing it in the default setting after reading the book, I'll eat a shoe.

I think a problem with HQ is going to be Extended Contests. That's a pretty involved bit of meta-mechanics which may turn out even more complicated in it's own way.


You could forget about rules and just have a "No, my dude can do this" competition that 5 year olds usually play. I find the D20 system to be a very light, simple and flexible. I don't know why you would want to dumb it down any more than it is.

perhaps your DM is having trouble keeping you to a stuck course so that the game will turn out exactly the way he wants it? I'd suggest just playing on the fly, as that has turned out pretty well for some of the DMs in my group.

You know when I said "crunchier than Wushu"? Freeform isn't an option, I don't think that would work for anyone. We already know Wushu works better than freeform. And D20 is far from "light"; if you think it's the definition of simplicity, then it speaks more to your lack of experience with other systems.


Fudge. (http://www.sonic.net/~rknop/Omar/fudge/FudgeSRD/)

Availiable free online as an SRD, Fudge is a system designed to let you make any system you want out of it. The size of the rules looks intimidating at first, but that's only because they actually consist of a whole bunch of variants, options, and advice for choosing the rules that best suit your playstyle, setting, and characters. I'd estimate that a final version of the rule set, once decided on by the GM and edited down, would only consist of 5 printed pages, with a little extra in your case to allow for defining how the Force works.

Why Fudge?

Simple character creation - there are Attributes (defined by the GM), Skills (any you can make up, subject to GM approval and tweaking), Gifts (benefits that aren't attributes or skills, make up your own), and Faults (like gifts, but negative). That's it. No looking through lists of feats and powers.

Balance: Fudge can be tweaked to have any kind of balance you want. For example, simply increasing the cost of force powers relative to other skills will force people to think about trade offs, because everything comes from the same pool of points at character creation.

Anywho, check out the srd. Then again, it might not be heavy enough for your tastes. It makes a great base to build on, though

Trust me, "not heavy enough" is unlikely to be an issue, as I said the alternative is Wushu. But we'd like a little more differentiation than that.

What's the difference between Fudge and Fate? Has someone done a Fudge/Star Wars adaptation already?

SilverSheriff
2009-01-22, 07:46 AM
You know when I said "crunchier than Wushu"? Freeform isn't an option, I don't think that would work for anyone. We already know Wushu works better than freeform. And D20 is far from "light"; if you think it's the definition of simplicity, then it speaks more to your lack of experience with other systems.

it might be that D20 was the first system I learned and I'm so used to D20 that other systems seem to be harder to learn.

Edge of Dreams
2009-01-22, 07:48 AM
What's the difference between Fudge and Fate? Has someone done a Fudge/Star Wars adaptation already?

Fate is based on Fudge, but other than that, I dunno. Spirit of the Century is an example of a great game that took Fudge and picked certain options, threw out others, and tacked on a bit of its own thing.

As far as I know, no official Fudge/Star Wars game exists, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone, somewhere, has done it.

bosssmiley
2009-01-22, 08:15 AM
A "Star Wars" system lighter than SWd20 or Saggy? WEG's SW d6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_role-playing_game_(WEG)) should work for you.

A little scratching about in some of the more wretched hives of scum and villainy of the webtertubes (ie: ebay) should turn up cheap old copies.

Mando Knight
2009-01-22, 08:25 AM
As far as I know, no official Fudge/Star Wars game exists,

Correct. The only official Star Wars RPGs are the WEG d6 and WotC's d20/RCR and SAGA systems.

However, all of these have been eliminated as a possibility in the first post.

Kiero
2009-01-22, 08:37 AM
A "Star Wars" system lighter than SWd20 or Saggy? WEG's SW d6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_role-playing_game_(WEG)) should work for you.

A little scratching about in some of the more wretched hives of scum and villainy of the webtertubes (ie: ebay) should turn up cheap old copies.

As I said in the OP, D6 does not fit the bill. I've played it before; Jedi and non-Jedi aren't balanced, the skills list is too long, it has tables galore and buckets o' dice.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-22, 08:45 AM
I think a problem with HQ is going to be Extended Contests. That's a pretty involved bit of meta-mechanics which may turn out even more complicated in it's own way.

I'm not sure how it's complicated. You bid, you roll, you repeat until someone's out of points. This can be used to handle fighting a hundred enemies at once, if you feel like going up against a four-digit point pool...

It's definitely the simplest combat resolution system I'm familiar with, and the action is entirely descriptive, not tactical.

Khatoblepas
2009-01-22, 08:55 AM
How about BRP? I like that system. Percentile skills, very few real crunch elements, but crunchy enough to handle any situation. I don't like really rules-light/freeform systems, as having something solid is a good thing for me. Balance is determined by the GM, not the system, too, so you can adjust it as you like.

Magic in BRP is likewise very flexible. You could exchange Magic Points for Force Points, and the augmentations could cost 1MP for +X% to a skill, and stranger powers could just be spells in themselves. You can even say that you need X POW to use force powers (and have a Force Point pool), or simply give your players an extra skill, and tell them:


"Use the Force" is a skill if you want to Use the Force. Force Sensitivity is another. You must roll Use the Force if you want to use a Force Power. If successful, you gain one of the following effects:
- Bonus to the skill roll if used at the same time. (1MP)
- Extra dice of damage if used like Martial Arts (2MP)
- A use of a Force Power [spell] (varies)

Skills, well, it has a VERY large skill list, because ANYTHING can be a skill if the GM allows it. BRP systems have had anything from Jump, Parry and Psychology to Needlecraft, Chair Leg (weapon), and Cleaning to Hold Liquor, Sit On, and Talk about Self. It's pretty light on HOW you use it, though. It's pretty awesome.

Yeah, BRP. You may have to do some homebrewing for races and junk, but hey, I bet someone's already done it.

bosssmiley
2009-01-22, 08:57 AM
As I said in the OP, D6 does not fit the bill. I've played it before; Jedi and non-Jedi aren't balanced, the skills list is too long, it has tables galore and buckets o' dice.

Ah. Gotcha. Ok then, how about "Savage Worlds"? It was made for pulp adventure games like SW, Indy Jones and Flash Gordon. Light system, quick to use. Job done. :smallwink:

Kiero
2009-01-22, 09:28 AM
I'm not sure how it's complicated. You bid, you roll, you repeat until someone's out of points. This can be used to handle fighting a hundred enemies at once, if you feel like going up against a four-digit point pool...

It's definitely the simplest combat resolution system I'm familiar with, and the action is entirely descriptive, not tactical.

I've read that section of the book lots of times over, and still don't have a good feel for how they actually work. All the bidding business is an abstraction from what's going on - not necessarily in an intuitive way either.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-22, 10:04 AM
It is an abstraction, yes, but I don't think you'll find a light system that isn't. I mean, the only non-abstract combat system I can think of is in The Riddle of Steel, where ten seconds of combat takes half an hour (a great half-hour, full of tactical decisions, and when someone gets hit, it's pretty decisive) - and even TRoS is somewhat abstract.

I'm not sure I see how the bidding can be complex.

You bid points from your pool. You roll dice. As a result, either you lose points, or your opponent loses points. (Or both of you, or one loses and one gains, etc.)

Meanwhile, you're describing what's going on. If you bid everything you had, then clearly you're making a risky gambit - an all-out attack, a everything-on-the-table revelation or putting your own character on the line in a social situation, etc. If you bid very little, you're being cautious, maybe just setting up for an advantageous position or probing your opponent.

Once someone runs out of points, they're defeated - the degree depends on whether they went into the negatives and how badly.

CharPixie
2009-01-22, 10:45 AM
Serenity; it's still one of my favourite rules-light systems. I've used it for a Medieval game before. You just ignore costing and economic stuff; really, that stuff you could pull from the saga book and translate it (or have your DM offload that to someone. offloading world creation... i want to do that next time.). General resolution is attribute + skill (no lists) + plot points. Resolution numbers are easy, too.

I'd recommend making force powers cost a certain number of plot points to even use, except in DM mandated situations.

Of course, failing that, there's always the basic WoD skill system; don't take combat, just skills and attributes and resolution. You don't need anything beyond that for light. (in fact, you could do that with D&D even; it's just the d&D skill system suffers from some flaws that making it the center of a game would only emphasize.

Kiero
2009-01-22, 12:35 PM
A note from the GM in question:


Hi. I'm the mysterious and elusive GM in question.

I'm a White Wolf Freelancer and long-term oWoD/nWoD head, so Storyteller (pre-Exalted versions) and Storytelling are the systems that I know backwards. On the other hand, they're also the ones I don't want to use.

I have played and enjoyed several games of the "real" SAGA system by TSR - mostly fantasy campaigns, admittedly, but there were a number of intriguing hacks of the system created by an old buddy I could take a look at.

I own (but am shamed to say have never actually read) Savage Worlds, so I'll take a look at that conversion.

Never read Heroquest. Unisystem I've read the once, but never got into playing due to above-mentioned oWoD obsession when it was at it's height.

I own (and have run) the old D6 system. It does not do what I want.

To clarify what I DO want - I'm trying to replicate the "feel" of the movies, particularly the prequels. I'm not so much concerned with "lightness" or granuality as I am with speed. SWSE reproduces the action of the films pretty well and does so while maintaining differences between characters, but the stumbling block for me is that it's very slow to do so. The combat system takes slightly too long for my taste (but only slightly). The real bugbear is in the fiddly microsystems that seem designed to punish player improvisation and the godawful lead time needed to create encounters, which seems designed to punish GM improvisation.

My style of GMing is very reactive - I need to be able to respond to players suddenly going to a different system, or deciding to sneak into Crime Lord X's base at the drop of a hat. If the npc stats for a system aren't simple enough that I can supply them without breaking stride, the system isn't simple enough for us to use.

About that "punishing improvisation" thing. One of my bugbears about the last two versions of D&D is that the more you add Feats, Talents, Knacks or whatever the more things you're implicitly stating any character without said mechanical coupon can't do. Every armour use feat prevents canny scoundrels from stealing an Ubese bounty-hunter's clothes, every cunning combat manuevere lovingly statted out as a Talent means noone else can try it. But the other extreme - a core system with no distinction between characters - is equally useless for my needs, as it leads to PCs being homogenised.

The Jedi need to keep their special powers while being balanced with the non-Jedi. Whether that balance is in the form of luck mechanics (like Buffy's sidekicks getting more plot-altering points than powered folk), easier skill rolls, whatever. I don't mind.

Incidentally, I really dislike the fact that you have fire and forget Jedi Powers in SWSE that are limited to the ones you've explicitly bought, too. Less of that, please.

Kiero
2009-01-22, 12:37 PM
It is an abstraction, yes, but I don't think you'll find a light system that isn't. I mean, the only non-abstract combat system I can think of is in The Riddle of Steel, where ten seconds of combat takes half an hour (a great half-hour, full of tactical decisions, and when someone gets hit, it's pretty decisive) - and even TRoS is somewhat abstract.

I'm not sure I see how the bidding can be complex.

You bid points from your pool. You roll dice. As a result, either you lose points, or your opponent loses points. (Or both of you, or one loses and one gains, etc.)

Meanwhile, you're describing what's going on. If you bid everything you had, then clearly you're making a risky gambit - an all-out attack, a everything-on-the-table revelation or putting your own character on the line in a social situation, etc. If you bid very little, you're being cautious, maybe just setting up for an advantageous position or probing your opponent.

Once someone runs out of points, they're defeated - the degree depends on whether they went into the negatives and how badly.

I play and enjoy Wushu, it's not like abstraction itself is an issue. But when it doesn't feel intuitive or natural then it is. I've heard someone say in the past if you're familiar with poker, then HQ's bidding system is pretty straightforward. Well I'm not, so it doesn't feel simple at all.

Thane of Fife
2009-01-22, 12:59 PM
It could be worth checking out Powergame (http://www.kotiposti.net/trmika/powergame/). It's meant for Superhero stuff, but it's pretty flexible.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-22, 01:13 PM
Everway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everway). Sure, the base setting is that of your typical fantasy planeswalking schtick, but the core mechanics are simple and intuitive.

There are no dice: all action is resolved by DM fiat or by a draw from the tarot deck when the DM can't make the decision himself.

There are four statistics: Earth (representing physical and mental stamina, practicality, and overall endurance); Air (representing intelligence, agility, and creativity); Fire (representing power, passion and drive); and Water (representing perception, wisdom, and patience). Each range between 1 and 10. Determining who is the victor in a trial of skill amounts to comparing one person's score to another: the higher wins.

Magic can be refluffed as The Force easily. Magic is also rated on a 1-10 scale, and the example paths given are largely described as "higher numbers allow a larger scope of effect". In short, you make up your magic as you go along, and the DM adjucates as needed.

Powers, which are different from magic, are physical abilities or special equipment. These cost between 0 to 3 points of your character creation pool, with the score depending on if the power is Frequently Usable, Powerful, or Versatile. Being a force-wielder, for instance, would be a 3 point power (as it is frequent, versatile, and powerful); a lightsaber would be a 2 point power (as it is frequent and powerful, but not versatile); a blaster would be a 1 point power (as it is frequent, but not powerful or versatile); a resistance to heat would be a 0 point power ( as it is not frequent, powerful, or versatile).

I'd highly suggest checking it out: even if it'd take a little bit of effort to make the game's mechanics do exactly what you want them to do, they are capable of doing it out of the box with almost no effort.

Roog
2009-01-22, 01:47 PM
Fate is based on Fudge, but other than that, I dunno. Spirit of the Century is an example of a great game that took Fudge and picked certain options, threw out others, and tacked on a bit of its own thing.

So how about Spirit of the Century?

Just replace the War/Novel/Guest Star phases of character generation with something more appropriate for Star Wars.

There is also an online coversion to SciFi, Spirit of the Far Future, which, although its set up as a version of Traveller, gives a nice example of Spirit of the Century as a SciFi game.

Spirit of the Century SRD (http://bzr.mausdompteur.de/fate3/fate3.html)
Spirit of the Far Future (http://www.phreeow.net/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=Spirit+of+the+Far+Future)

DMfromTheAbyss
2009-01-22, 02:02 PM
I second the suggestion for Feng Shui.
Not sure what your problems with the system are, but by just excluding all the powers and archtypes that don't make sense it would be an easy and good fit.

Short of that coming up with a not-quite free form homebrew might be another option, just going to take some work from the GM to get it where he wants it.

Satyr
2009-01-22, 02:06 PM
All Flesh Must Be Eaten + All Tomorow Zombies. All Unisystem goodness, including a star wars based setting.
The rules are light and easy to learn, the different characters are adaptable and easy to adjust (no painfully hidebound class limitations).

The base system has a somewhat more specifc list of skills, but since it is absolutely no problem to use the ATZ specific stuff together with the cinematic Unisystem, which is much simpler.

Kiero
2009-01-22, 06:54 PM
So how about Spirit of the Century?

Just replace the War/Novel/Guest Star phases of character generation with something more appropriate for Star Wars.

There is also an online coversion to SciFi, Spirit of the Far Future, which, although its set up as a version of Traveller, gives a nice example of Spirit of the Century as a SciFi game.

Spirit of the Century SRD (http://bzr.mausdompteur.de/fate3/fate3.html)
Spirit of the Far Future (http://www.phreeow.net/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=Spirit+of+the+Far+Future)

I've looked at FATE a few times in the past, I think it could fit the bill. I've heard of a Spirit of the Force out there somewhere, but I've not been able to track it down.

Thane of Fife
2009-01-22, 07:57 PM
I've looked at FATE a few times in the past, I think it could fit the bill. I've heard of a Spirit of the Force out there somewhere, but I've not been able to track it down.

Some thoughts on the subject (http://codrus.livejournal.com/199749.html), at least.

As far as I can tell from looking at other stuff, though, Spirit of the Force was never really written down:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=314060