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Myou
2009-01-22, 01:33 PM
I'm trying to maximise my chances of scoring a critical hit with a TWF rogue//assassin. I'm planning on taking Improved Critical: Kukri, what else can I do?

And would it be better just to get Keen Kukris?


If anyone knows of ways to make the most of the critical hits I do get then that would be appreciated too.

Edit: I'm not interested in PrCs or any kind of multiclassing, but thanks to those who suggested it.

NEO|Phyte
2009-01-22, 01:54 PM
If anyone knows of ways to make the most of the critical hits I do get then that would be appreciated too.

Tome of Battle: the level 1 stance Blood in the Water. Every time you confirm a critical (including against crit-immune foes), you get a stacking +1 to attack and damage, resetting back to +0 if you go one minute without critting.

ToB + Complete Warrior: CWar has the feat Lightning Mace, which lets you take an extra attack at the same bonus whenever you get a critical threat while TWFing with light maces. The +1-equiv Aptitude weapon enchantment in ToB allows you to use the enchanted weapon with any feat that requires a specific weapon, even if the weapon is otherwise ineligible.

Satyr
2009-01-22, 01:57 PM
Generally, enchantments are superior to spent feats, as feats are rarer and harder to get. So, when your campaign makes it easy to get new magical items, then it would make sense just to get the enchanted weapons instead.

Aprt from this, I know exactly one prestige class, the Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d), that increases the threat span of critical hits and stack with the improved critical feat.

lilhowie624
2009-01-22, 02:07 PM
another class to look into is the weapon master. they get a ki ability that adds 2 to your threat. another weapon is the rapier or scimatar 1d6 18-20X2
rapier is fenessable


ToB + Complete Warrior: CWar has the feat Lightning Mace, which lets you take an extra attack at the same bonus whenever you get a critical threat while TWFing with light maces

ive seen this do some massive dmg. one player i had rolled like 6 attacks TWF

Epinephrine
2009-01-22, 02:12 PM
Loaded dice. Rolling more high numbers will help.

Making the most of crits? The weapon enhancements that trigger on crits may be good - there are many enhancements - fiery, enervating, icy, paraytic, doom, shocking, prismatic, curse spewing, vorpal.

RTGoodman
2009-01-22, 02:12 PM
Like Satyr said, enchantments are probably cheaper than feats, and there's also the keen edge spell (which keen is based on) that's a 3rd-level Sor/Wiz spell that works for 10 min. per level. If you can score a keen kukri or two yet, ask your party arcanist to cast it for you.

One thing to remember is that only natural 20s are automatic hits. Even if your threat range is 15-20, you don't automatically hit everytime you roll a 15. If it IS a hit, you threaten a critical, but otherwise it's just a miss. Because of that, don't neglect to work on ways to up your attack bonus through spells, magic weapons, attacking from hiding/flanking (which you should be doing anyway for Sneak Attack), and stuff like that.

Also, the Psionic Weapon Master that Satyr mentioned might be pretty good. The abilities that deal with critical hits aren't usable all day, but they are nifty. Also, it grants Improved Critical, but if you already have it it grants you a FURTHER +2 to your crit range (13-20). If you decide to go with that, I suggest the Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) variant, though with the Psionic Weapon Master prerequisites you lose all but maybe one level of Assassin.

Myou
2009-01-22, 02:14 PM
Tome of Battle: the level 1 stance Blood in the Water. Every time you confirm a critical (including against crit-immune foes), you get a stacking +1 to attack and damage, resetting back to +0 if you go one minute without critting.

ToB + Complete Warrior: CWar has the feat Lightning Mace, which lets you take an extra attack at the same bonus whenever you get a critical threat while TWFing with light maces. The +1-equiv Aptitude weapon enchantment in ToB allows you to use the enchanted weapon with any feat that requires a specific weapon, even if the weapon is otherwise ineligible.

But I'm not a Swordsage or Warblade. o.O

Would that make Improved Critical and Keen stack?


Generally, enchantments are superior to spent feats, as feats are rarer and harder to get. So, when your campaign makes it easy to get new magical items, then it would make sense just to get the enchanted weapons instead.

Aprt from this, I know exactly one prestige class, the Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d), that increases the threat span of critical hits and stack with the improved critical feat.

Yeah, I should have really said I was thinking abou taking it and probably won't if it's not going to stack.

That'll be handy to know for the future but sadly wont work this time as I'm not multiclassing.

Keld Denar
2009-01-22, 02:18 PM
ToB + Complete Warrior: CWar has the feat Lightning Mace, which lets you take an extra attack at the same bonus whenever you get a critical threat while TWFing with light maces. The +1-equiv Aptitude weapon enchantment in ToB allows you to use the enchanted weapon with any feat that requires a specific weapon, even if the weapon is otherwise ineligible.

I got bored once and actually wrote MatLab code to simulate a build that JaronK posted over on the CharOp boards. His build involved Disciple of Dispater, a PrC from Book of Vile Cheeze which explicitly does stack with Imp Crit. I didn't run the code since I seem to have misplaced my MatLab install disk and am about 3000 miles from my university's computer lab. If anyone has MatLab and is interested in running the code, lemme know. I'm pretty sure it won't go to infinity and crash, but I'm not making any garuntees with MatLab's RNG...lol! Hope you have a lot of RAM though, since its written in a kind of a bulky loop-style logic, but that was the only way I could think of to model it.

Damn it, I'm not a programmer, I just play one on TV!

Myou
2009-01-22, 02:22 PM
Loaded dice. Rolling more high numbers will help.

Making the most of crits? The weapon enhancements that trigger on crits may be good - there are many enhancements - fiery, enervating, icy, paraytic, doom, shocking, prismatic, curse spewing, vorpal.

That's a good point, yes. Although I thought Vorpal was only on natural 20s, not criticals.


Like Satyr said, enchantments are probably cheaper than feats, and there's also the keen edge spell (which keen is based on) that's a 3rd-level Sor/Wiz spell that works for 10 min. per level. If you can score a keen kukri or two yet, ask your party arcanist to cast it for you.

One thing to remember is that only natural 20s are automatic hits. Even if your threat range is 15-20, you don't automatically hit everytime you roll a 15. If it IS a hit, you threaten a critical, but otherwise it's just a miss. Because of that, don't neglect to work on ways to up your attack bonus through spells, magic weapons, attacking from hiding/flanking (which you should be doing anyway for Sneak Attack), and stuff like that.

Also, the Psionic Weapon Master that Satyr mentioned might be pretty good. The abilities that deal with critical hits aren't usable all day, but they are nifty. Also, it grants Improved Critical, but if you already have it it grants you a FURTHER +2 to your crit range (13-20). If you decide to go with that, I suggest the Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) variant, though with the Psionic Weapon Master prerequisites you lose all but maybe one level of Assassin.

That spell would be great, but I'm in a solo campagn. ><
(Does the spell stack with the enhancement?)

My strategy is hiding, flanking, SA and weapon finesse, yeah. This is more to take advantage of Telling Blow (it lets you sneak attack on crits) for when I can't flank/hide.

Next time, next time. xD
I just like playing one class and making the most of it.

lilhowie624
2009-01-22, 02:37 PM
unfortanatly keen and imp crit doesnt stack. youll have to find the good cheese on crits by serching and digging. as for getting the stance without being a sword sage theres a feat that allows you to get martial manuvers and stances in ToB.

TheCountAlucard
2009-01-22, 02:40 PM
There's a feat out there that lets you treat rolling a 1 as if you had rolled a nat 20. I don't remember the name at the moment - I'm still laughing over the Candlejack reference in the other th-

Telonius
2009-01-22, 02:47 PM
The Power Critical feat from CWar gives you a +4 on crit confirmation rolls when you connect with your chosen Weapon Focus weapon.

Confound the Big Folk from Races of the Wild gives +4 on crit confirmation vs foes 2 size categories larger. (You have to be Small or smaller to get it, and must occupy the opponent's space to use it).

Myou
2009-01-22, 02:48 PM
unfortanatly keen and imp crit doesnt stack. youll have to find the good cheese on crits by serching and digging. as for getting the stance without being a sword sage theres a feat that allows you to get martial manuvers and stances in ToB.

Hmmm, that's not really worth it just for the ability it's give me, it looks like a melee class's ability, not something too good for a hit-and-fade rogue.

Thanks for the info though.


There's a feat out there that lets you treat rolling a 1 as if you had rolled a nat 20. I don't remember the name at the moment - I'm still laughing over the Candlejack reference in the other th-

I saw that in CS, but it said it was limited to one use a day.

NEO|Phyte
2009-01-22, 03:06 PM
But I'm not a Swordsage or Warblade. o.O

Would that make Improved Critical and Keen stack?

Spending two feats can get you the stance. Martial Study to pick up a maneuver, then Martial Stance to pick up a stance.

And no, Aptitude wouldn't make Imp. Critical and Keen stack, it would just mean that if you had Imp. Critical (underwater basket weaver), it would apply to your kukris.

Epinephrine
2009-01-22, 03:09 PM
That's a good point, yes. Although I thought Vorpal was only on natural 20s, not criticals.

Point - not as handy then. I was just trying to be thorough.

Let me do a quick analysis though, before you follow up on it.

Will you be using Greater Magic Weapon to boost the bonus on your blades? If you don't have a caster providing that, it may not be worth looking at burst weapons.

An elemental weapon (e.g., corrosive) adds 1d6 damage (3.5 average) without adding to hit or base damage, at a +1 bonus. Depeding on your base damage and chance of hitting, this could be a good or a bad trade-off. After all, with high base damage and only hitting on a 20, you double the number of hits you get by adding a +1 to hit, and your additional hits will easily make up more than the +3.5 damage you very rarely get to benefit from. On the other end of the spectrum, if you are guaranteed a hit the +1 to hit is worth nearly nothing, so you're comparing the +1.30 damage from the enhancement (+1, but a 30% chance of confirming a crit) against the 3.5 damage from the weapon property.

A burst on top of that only adds damage when you crit. It adds 1d10 extra damage (5.5 average) on a crit, but even assuming that you hit automatically, you'll only crit 30% of the time. That's a mere 1.65 damage per swing on average, when you can count on a crit! Taking another +1 enhancement bonus, on the other hand, will add at least 1.3 more damage. If the target is at all hard to hit, the extra to hit bonus delivering your damage more often wins out.

So I'd ignore my earlier comment - it's just not worth it damage-wise to pursue those enhancements.

The debuffing enhancements (Paralytic Burst, Enervating, Doom Burst) may be worth using, as the effect may be more valuable than damage.

Myou
2009-01-22, 03:37 PM
The Power Critical feat from CWar gives you a +4 on crit confirmation rolls when you connect with your chosen Weapon Focus weapon.

Confound the Big Folk from Races of the Wild gives +4 on crit confirmation vs foes 2 size categories larger. (You have to be Small or smaller to get it, and must occupy the opponent's space to use it).

Yeah, Power Critical will help.

But sadly I'm medium so so confounding for me.


Spending two feats can get you the stance. Martial Study to pick up a maneuver, then Martial Stance to pick up a stance.

And no, Aptitude wouldn't make Imp. Critical and Keen stack, it would just mean that if you had Imp. Critical (underwater basket weaver), it would apply to your kukris.

Oh well. I guess a Keen enhancement is the way to go.


Point - not as handy then. I was just trying to be thorough.

Let me do a quick analysis though, before you follow up on it.

Will you be using Greater Magic Weapon to boost the bonus on your blades? If you don't have a caster providing that, it may not be worth looking at burst weapons.

An elemental weapon (e.g., corrosive) adds 1d6 damage (3.5 average) without adding to hit or base damage, at a +1 bonus. Depeding on your base damage and chance of hitting, this could be a good or a bad trade-off. After all, with high base damage and only hitting on a 20, you double the number of hits you get by adding a +1 to hit, and your additional hits will easily make up more than the +3.5 damage you very rarely get to benefit from. On the other end of the spectrum, if you are guaranteed a hit the +1 to hit is worth nearly nothing, so you're comparing the +1.30 damage from the enhancement (+1, but a 30% chance of confirming a crit) against the 3.5 damage from the weapon property.

A burst on top of that only adds damage when you crit. It adds 1d10 extra damage (5.5 average) on a crit, but even assuming that you hit automatically, you'll only crit 30% of the time. That's a mere 1.65 damage per swing on average, when you can count on a crit! Taking another +1 enhancement bonus, on the other hand, will add at least 1.3 more damage. If the target is at all hard to hit, the extra to hit bonus delivering your damage more often wins out.

So I'd ignore my earlier comment - it's just not worth it damage-wise to pursue those enhancements.

The debuffing enhancements (Paralytic Burst, Enervating, Doom Burst) may be worth using, as the effect may be more valuable than damage.

I appreciate it. ^^

Nope, I'll be casterless sadly.

That's been quite illuminating thanks. I too was drawn by the shiny elements.

Person_Man
2009-01-22, 04:21 PM
FYI, trying to optimize critical hits is generally a poor strategy. In general, tons of enemies are immune to crits, and the overall bonus to expected damage really isn't impressive even when enemies are susceptible to it. But in particular, bonus dice of damage (such as the bonus damage from Sneak Attack) are NOT multiplied by a critical hit. So it's a particularly poor strategy for a Rogue/Anything.

Instead you should consider trying to get as many attacks as possible, and optimizing your Sneak Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915) and Death Attack (usually by debuffing your enemy - check out any Hexblade thread for feats and ideas).

Anywho, assuming you're committed to optimizing crits, here's my advice:

Buy a Scabbard of Keen Edges (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Scabbard_of_Keen_Edges) or Wand of Keen Edges. In the long run it's cheaper then a feat or weapon enhancement (since each additional +1 bonus of enhancement dramatically increases the cost of the weapon).

Increase your non-dice bonuses to damage, which are multiplied when you crit. For example, your Str bonus, Craven feat, Smite, Power Attack, etc.

Lightning Mace + Aptitude Weapon, as NEO|Phyte suggests (warning, DMs hate this combo).

You have UMD as a Skill, use it. In particular, spells like Haste, Divine Power, Greater Invisibility, Greater Magic Weapon, Wraithstrike or Spectral Weapon (Spell Comp), etc. This will increase the number of attacks you can make, and drastically improve your chances of hitting.

Enhance your weapons with the Bodyfeeder enhancement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm). As long as you crit once per round, you should have a constant stream of temporary hit points. (Although it temporary hit points overlap, they are also lost first when you take damage. So unless you take massive damage or suffer from status effects, you should be able to stick it out indefinitely in almost any combat).

Fax Celestis
2009-01-22, 04:32 PM
Enhance your weapons with the Bodyfeeder enhancement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm). As long as you crit once per round, you should have a constant stream of temporary hit points. (Although it temporary hit points overlap, they are also lost first when you take damage. So unless you take massive damage or suffer from status effects, you should be able to stick it out indefinitely in almost any combat).

Couple with the Stone Power feat for hilarious temporary HP values.

Myou
2009-01-22, 05:10 PM
FYI, trying to optimize critical hits is generally a poor strategy. In general, tons of enemies are immune to crits, and the overall bonus to expected damage really isn't impressive even when enemies are susceptible to it. But in particular, bonus dice of damage (such as the bonus damage from Sneak Attack) are NOT multiplied by a critical hit. So it's a particularly poor strategy for a Rogue/Anything.

Instead you should consider trying to get as many attacks as possible, and optimizing your Sneak Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915) and Death Attack (usually by debuffing your enemy - check out any Hexblade thread for feats and ideas).

Anywho, assuming you're committed to optimizing crits, here's my advice:

Buy a Scabbard of Keen Edges (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Scabbard_of_Keen_Edges) or Wand of Keen Edges. In the long run it's cheaper then a feat or weapon enhancement (since each additional +1 bonus of enhancement dramatically increases the cost of the weapon).

Increase your non-dice bonuses to damage, which are multiplied when you crit. For example, your Str bonus, Craven feat, Smite, Power Attack, etc.

Lightning Mace + Aptitude Weapon, as NEO|Phyte suggests (warning, DMs hate this combo).

You have UMD as a Skill, use it. In particular, spells like Haste, Divine Power, Greater Invisibility, Greater Magic Weapon, Wraithstrike or Spectral Weapon (Spell Comp), etc. This will increase the number of attacks you can make, and drastically improve your chances of hitting.

Enhance your weapons with the Bodyfeeder enhancement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm). As long as you crit once per round, you should have a constant stream of temporary hit points. (Although it temporary hit points overlap, they are also lost first when you take damage. So unless you take massive damage or suffer from status effects, you should be able to stick it out indefinitely in almost any combat).

My main strategy is optimisation of my SAs and DAs, but as part of that I'm taking Telling Blow, which lets me SA on critical hits. So I want to get as many crits as I can, and make the most of them.

Lightning Mace requires you to use maces though (at least I assume it does), sadly my character uses blades.

Yeah, I'll see what I can get, I'm pumping UMD for a reason after all.


Couple with the Stone Power feat for hilarious temporary HP values.

Sounds like a plan. :3

NEO|Phyte
2009-01-22, 05:11 PM
Lightning Mace requires you to use maces though (at least I assume it does), sadly my character uses blades.

Normally, yes, it requires maces, but if you have Aptitude weapons, you can get the feat's benefit with them.

MCerberus
2009-01-22, 05:20 PM
I'd recommend simply talking to your DM. Improved Critical and Keen stacking is one of the more common house rules. If you could convince him/her to use it that's a fairly big threat range.

Myou
2009-01-22, 05:29 PM
Normally, yes, it requires maces, but if you have Aptitude weapons, you can get the feat's benefit with them.

Wow, I totally misread your first post. ^^;

Hmmm, that could be very useful. :3


I'd recommend simply talking to your DM. Improved Critical and Keen stacking is one of the more common house rules. If you could convince him/her to use it that's a fairly big threat range.

Really? Well, maybe I'll ask him then!

Myou
2009-01-22, 06:05 PM
Update;

My DM has agreed to let Keen and IC stack.

As I understand it, if I take Improved Critical: Kukri ad get a pair of Keen kukris they'd have a threat range of 18-20/x2 + 3 + 3 for a total rage of 12-20/x2, yes?

And I get a sneak attack with every critical thanks to Telling blow. (Sadly that's not multipled of course.)

Now is there a way to increase the multiplier? xD

If I can get the Aptitude enhancement then take the Lightning Mace feat that would let me get an extra attack every time I go a critical threat too.

Power Critical will also help convert the threats into crits.

(I won't go for the bodyfeeder trick though, that would be a bit too cheesy, my character's meant to sneak about, not be unkillable in melee. xD )

So, anything I'm missing?

Eldariel
2009-01-22, 06:41 PM
The listed weapon enhancements. Bursts, especially Prismatic Burst are great for critical monkeys. Getting Blood in the Water-stance would also rock (as said, two feats gets it to you if you don't want to multiclass in Swordsage/Warblade for 1 level). There're also some enhancements that heal you when you crit and such. Overall, focus on your Kukris; there's more to critting than Keen.

Myou
2009-01-22, 07:15 PM
The listed weapon enhancements. Bursts, especially Prismatic Burst are great for critical monkeys. Getting Blood in the Water-stance would also rock (as said, two feats gets it to you if you don't want to multiclass in Swordsage/Warblade for 1 level). There're also some enhancements that heal you when you crit and such. Overall, focus on your Kukris; there's more to critting than Keen.

Prismatic? o.o

Now where can I get me some of that? :o


And do you mean take Weapon Focus?

Fax Celestis
2009-01-22, 07:22 PM
Someone needs to reverse the concordant property that the Concordant Killer (MM-IV) has on his weapon.

Myou
2009-01-22, 07:44 PM
Someone needs to reverse the concordant property that the Concordant Killer (MM-IV) has on his weapon.

Wow, a weapon that kills you with the sheer impossibility of it's existence! xD

An unholy holy weapon, it must hurt just trying to comprehend it.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-22, 07:48 PM
Wow, a weapon that kills you with the sheer impossibility of it's existence! xD

An unholy holy weapon, it must hurt just trying to comprehend it.

It's worse than that. It's a holy unholy axiomatic anarchic sword +4. It's like they put alignment in a blender and hit puree.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-22, 07:50 PM
You do realize that you won't get many critical hits with the -4 nonproficiency penalty for using kukris, right? Neither Rogue nor Assassin have them on their weapon proficiency list.

Draz74
2009-01-22, 07:57 PM
I'm going to go against the grain and recommend getting Improved Critical, non-Keen kukris. Then get a Bless Weapon effect on them. If you don't want to be UMDing Paladin-only-crafted wands, there's a great item in the MIC, similar to Scabbard of Keen Edges, that can get you this auto-confirm-criticals ability: Sacred Scabbard.

By the way, are Rogues even proficient with kukris without spending a feat?

Keld Denar
2009-01-22, 08:06 PM
It's worse than that. It's a holy unholy axiomatic anarchic sword +4. It's like they put alignment in a blender and hit puree.

Actually, a high level Horizon Walker with the Aligned Planar Mastery could wield that. He can emulate any alignment he want that is most beneficial. Nothing says he can't emulate all or none. Unfortunately, such a weapon wouldn't be very practical in use, as you'd get a max of 2 enhancements vs any given foe.

And Myou, look up Kaorti Resin weapons. They are terribly cheasy, but they automatically set any weapons multiplier to x4. Thus, with Imp Crit and Keen able to stack on a Kaorti Resin Kukri, you'll crit on 11+ for 4x damage. Fortunately, SA don't multiply, so the only things you'll be multiplying are your base weapon damage, meager Str, and Craven damage.

Myou
2009-01-22, 08:10 PM
You do realize that you won't get many critical hits with the -4 nonproficiency penalty for using kukris, right? Neither Rogue nor Assassin have them on their weapon proficiency list.

I didn't even think to mention that my DM gave me the proficiency. Otherwise, yes I would indeed.


I'm going to go against the grain and recommend getting Improved Critical, non-Keen kukris. Then get a Bless Weapon effect on them. If you don't want to be UMDing Paladin-only-crafted wands, there's a great item in the MIC, similar to Scabbard of Keen Edges, that can get you this auto-confirm-criticals ability: Sacred Scabbard.

By the way, are Rogues even proficient with kukris without spending a feat?

Hmmm... but to confirm a critical I only need to roll a hit against their AC - 4 , wouldn't I get a better result with a wider margin to crit than a better chance to confirm it?

The scabbard would have the added 3/day limitation which won't suit my character too well.

NEO|Phyte
2009-01-22, 08:13 PM
Unfortunately, such a weapon wouldn't be very practical in use, as you'd get a max of 2 enhancements vs any given foe.

Unless you're fighting a sect of succubus paladins...

Myou
2009-01-22, 08:15 PM
Actually, a high level Horizon Walker with the Aligned Planar Mastery could wield that. He can emulate any alignment he want that is most beneficial. Nothing says he can't emulate all or none. Unfortunately, such a weapon wouldn't be very practical in use, as you'd get a max of 2 enhancements vs any given foe.

And Myou, look up Kaorti Resin weapons. They are terribly cheasy, but they automatically set any weapons multiplier to x4. Thus, with Imp Crit and Keen able to stack on a Kaorti Resin Kukri, you'll crit on 11+ for 4x damage. Fortunately, SA don't multiply, so the only things you'll be multiplying are your base weapon damage, meager Str, and Craven damage.

Oooooh, super! Thanks for suggesting them I have to get a pair! Where can I find them?! :3


Sounds like I'm buying shoes or something. xD

Myou
2009-01-22, 08:26 PM
Unless you're fighting a sect of succubus paladins...

So that's what they're for!

But what if you fight a true neutral?! :o

ericgrau
2009-01-22, 08:30 PM
Burst enchantments give less damage on average than regular energy damage enchantments until you can manage a threat range of 8-20 or better (and still hit on a roll of an 8).

Getting more hits (and more confirmed crits): Unless your caster provides a reliable source of haste, get boots of speed for an extra attack and +1 AB. A potion of reduce person is worth +2 AB, but don't waste a combat round if you don't have a prep round to use it. Gloves of dex adds some. Weapon enchantments are generally better put into damage rather than AB. Weapon focus is worth +1 AB, if you're not getting it already. Standing on higher ground or (higher) stairs grants +1 AB, flanking +2 AB, invisibility +2 AB. Grappling opponents lose their dex bonus to AC, pinned opponents lose another 9 (nine), prone opponents lose 4 AC. So getting buddy buddy with the party fighter and/or caster really pays off.

SilentNight
2009-01-22, 08:38 PM
Just incase no one's mentioned it yet. The Disciple of Dispater prestige class from BoVD grants some very nasty crit boosters. Heck, you can get a 12-20 crit range with almost no effort,

Curmudgeon
2009-01-22, 08:42 PM
Weapon enchantments are generally better put into damage rather than AB. ... except if your main damage comes from sneak attack, which is the case here. Do not waste your money on weapon enhancements that just add to damage. The First Rule of Sneak Attack is:

If you don't hit, your sneak attack damage is zero.

Myou
2009-01-22, 08:49 PM
Burst enchantments give less damage on average than regular energy damage enchantments until you can manage a threat range of 8-20 or better (and still hit on a roll of an 8).

Getting more hits (and more confirmed crits): Unless your caster provides a reliable source of haste, get boots of speed for an extra attack and +1 AB. A potion of reduce person is worth +2 AB, but don't waste a combat round if you don't have a prep round to use it. Gloves of dex adds some. Weapon enchantments are generally better put into damage rather than AB. Weapon focus is worth +1 AB, if you're not getting it already. Standing on higher ground or (higher) stairs grants +1 AB, flanking +2 AB, invisibility +2 AB. Grappling opponents lose their dex bonus to AC, pinned opponents lose another 9 (nine), prone opponents lose 4 AC. So getting buddy buddy with the party fighter and/or caster really pays off.

Burst isn't for me, it's more important to make sure I hit really.

Mmm, thoe are good items, thanks.
Sadly I'm a party of one.


Just incase no one's mentioned it yet. The Disciple of Dispater prestige class from BoVD grants some very nasty crit boosters. Heck, you can get a 12-20 crit range with almost no effort,

I'm avoiding PrCs, but thanks anyway.


... except if your main damage comes from sneak attack, which is the case here. Do not waste your money on weapon enhancements that just add to damage. The First Rule of Sneak Attack is:

If you don't hit, your sneak attack damage is zero.

The first rule of Sneak Attack is you do not talk about Sneak Attack.


x3

Yeah, here gettig a crit is just a way to get more sneak attacks, boosting the critcal damage is just a bonus.

NEO|Phyte
2009-01-22, 08:50 PM
On that note, if you DO spend the feats for Blood in the Water, getting the martial discipline enchantment on your weapon (don't remember if that's the right name) will get you a +1 to attack purely for KNOWING a maneuver from the chosen discipline, increasing to +3 when using them, including stances, which can be on all day long.

Eldariel
2009-01-22, 08:58 PM
Prismatic Burst is in Magic Item Compendium. The beauty of it is that it's a set price bonus, so regardless of your weapon's other enhancements, it always costs the same. Makes it great later in the game. Basically, whenever you Crit, your target is subjected to one of the effects of Prismatic Wall.

Myou
2009-01-22, 09:04 PM
On that note, if you DO spend the feats for Blood in the Water, getting the martial discipline enchantment on your weapon (don't remember if that's the right name) will get you a +1 to attack purely for KNOWING a maneuver from the chosen discipline, increasing to +3 when using them, including stances, which can be on all day long.

I could, but I just don't really have the feats to spare for that, it doesn't seem like a big enough bonus for the cost.


Prismatic Burst is in Magic Item Compendium. The beauty of it is that it's a set price bonus, so regardless of your weapon's other enhancements, it always costs the same. Makes it great later in the game. Basically, whenever you Crit, your target is subjected to one of the effects of Prismatic Wall.

Wow, a flat gp cost with no effect on the weapon enhancement bonus? Excellent!

TK-Squared
2009-01-22, 09:18 PM
I got bored once and actually wrote MatLab code to simulate a build that JaronK posted over on the CharOp boards. His build involved Disciple of Dispater, a PrC from Book of Vile Cheeze which explicitly does stack with Imp Crit. I didn't run the code since I seem to have misplaced my MatLab install disk and am about 3000 miles from my university's computer lab. If anyone has MatLab and is interested in running the code, lemme know. I'm pretty sure it won't go to infinity and crash, but I'm not making any garuntees with MatLab's RNG...lol! Hope you have a lot of RAM though, since its written in a kind of a bulky loop-style logic, but that was the only way I could think of to model it.

Damn it, I'm not a programmer, I just play one on TV!

I don't suppose you know the build? I've got a console application that does something similar; it runs based on Blood in the Water stance and Kukri's with a threat range of 9-20. It's in C++. It doesn't have Lightning Mace in it... I could alter it for that.

But, it gives an output of how many crits you get, for example;
Based on BAB +18, strength 30 and modifiers of +5 in total against an enemy of AC 30;

Round 1 / Attack 2 / Weapon 1: Critical (Attack: 14)
Round 1 / Attack 1 / Weapon 2: Critical (Attack: 9)
Round 2 / Attack 1 / Weapon 1: Critical (Attack: 19)
Round 2 / Attack 3 / Weapon 1: Critical (Attack: 15)
Round 2 / Attack 2 / Weapon 2: Critical (Attack: 10)
Round 3 / Attack 1 / Weapon 1: Critical (Attack: 16)
Round 3 / Attack 2 / Weapon 1: Critical (Attack: 19)
Round 3 / Attack 3 / Weapon 1: Critical (Attack: 10)
Round 4 / Attack 1 / Weapon 1: Critical (Attack: 14)
Round 4 / Attack 2 / Weapon 1: Critical (Attack: 19)
Round 4 / Attack 3 / Weapon 1: Critical (Attack: 20)
Round 4 / Attack 4 / Weapon 1: Critical (Attack: 15)
Round 4 / Attack 2 / Weapon 2: Critical (Attack: 11)
Round 4 / Attack 4 / Weapon 2: Critical (Attack: 15)
Round 5 / Attack 1 / Weapon 1: Critical (Attack: 12)
Round 5 / Attack 2 / Weapon 1: Critical (Attack: 9)
Round 5 / Attack 4 / Weapon 1: Critical (Attack: 11)
Round 5 / Attack 2 / Weapon 2: Critical (Attack: 11)
Round 5 / Attack 3 / Weapon 2: Critical (Attack: 17)
Number of Criticals 19
Average Critical: 2.105263


If you're interested, I can send you the program or the source code. I'm just interested in the build and the subsequent programming.

Thanks,
TK

Keld Denar
2009-01-22, 09:28 PM
Can't link it because I can't get onto the Wizards forums from a work computer, but if you head over to CharOp and do an advanced search for threads started by JaronK with a subject like "most" I'm sure you'll find it there. He was also using something else that gives you an extra attack, so every crit gives 2 attacks and every hit gives 1 attack, or something silly like that. I had to use 3 loops in my MatLab code, but I'm sure that its probably a lot bulkier than anything you could write in C++. Unfortunately, I don't SPEAK C++, so I programmed it in MatLab, which was fairly simple.

I actually have the code here on my flash drive. Saved in a .txt file, just change it to a .m file and run it in MatLab and it should work.

[totdmg,totswing]=function(numatt,avgdmg)
p=0;
while numatt > 0;
numatt = numatt - 1; % reduces # of attacks each iteration
p = p + 1;
roll = 1+floor(rand*20);
if roll > 8;
roll = 1+floor(rand*20);
if roll > 1;
swing(p) = 2; % Change 2 to 3 or 4 if using higher crit multipliers
numatt = numatt + 2; % Generate 2 attacks per crit
else
swing(p) = 1; % Noncrit
end
else
roll = 1+floor(rand*20);
if roll > 1;
swing(p) = 1;
else
swing(p) = 0;
end
end

% This creates an array of 0s, 1s, and 2s, which corresponds to misses, hits, and crits respectively.

totswing = length(swing);
% The length of the variable swing gives the total number of attack rolls made
% as the counter p increases at every iteration.

totdmg = sum(swing) * avgdmg;
% Summing swing will give us the total number of effective hits
% Hits count a 1 effective hit, crits count as 2 effective hits
% Multiplying avgdmg by the sum of hits will give total damage for the run


It doesn't do Blood in the Water yet, and I honestly haven't worked on it in months, but you only need to enter in how many attacks you start with (for example, 8 with 20 BAB, ITWF, and Haste), and average damage, and it will calc how many total attacks you make, and what the total average damage per attack round would be. Again, I dunno if I trust MatLab's RNG, but I guess its good enough.

TK-Squared
2009-01-22, 09:51 PM
Can't link it because I can't get onto the Wizards forums from a work computer, but if you head over to CharOp and do an advanced search for threads started by JaronK with a subject like "most" I'm sure you'll find it there. He was also using something else that gives you an extra attack, so every crit gives 2 attacks and every hit gives 1 attack, or something silly like that. I had to use 3 loops in my MatLab code, but I'm sure that its probably a lot bulkier than anything you could write in C++. Unfortunately, I don't SPEAK C++, so I programmed it in MatLab, which was fairly simple.

I actually have the code here on my flash drive. Saved in a .txt file, just change it to a .m file and run it in MatLab and it should work.

[totdmg,totswing]=function(numatt,avgdmg)
p=0;
while numatt > 0;
numatt = numatt - 1; % reduces # of attacks each iteration
p = p + 1;
roll = 1+floor(rand*20);
if roll > 8;
roll = 1+floor(rand*20);
if roll > 1;
swing(p) = 2; % Change 2 to 3 or 4 if using higher crit multipliers
numatt = numatt + 2; % Generate 2 attacks per crit
else
swing(p) = 1; % Noncrit
end
else
roll = 1+floor(rand*20);
if roll > 1;
swing(p) = 1;
else
swing(p) = 0;
end
end

% This creates an array of 0s, 1s, and 2s, which corresponds to misses, hits, and crits respectively.

totswing = length(swing);
% The length of the variable swing gives the total number of attack rolls made
% as the counter p increases at every iteration.

totdmg = sum(swing) * avgdmg;
% Summing swing will give us the total number of effective hits
% Hits count a 1 effective hit, crits count as 2 effective hits
% Multiplying avgdmg by the sum of hits will give total damage for the run


It doesn't do Blood in the Water yet, and I honestly haven't worked on it in months, but you only need to enter in how many attacks you start with (for example, 8 with 20 BAB, ITWF, and Haste), and average damage, and it will calc how many total attacks you make, and what the total average damage per attack round would be. Again, I dunno if I trust MatLab's RNG, but I guess its good enough.

Alright, I'll go try and find it. Thanks for the information.

Tell the truth, in interpretation from what little I know of MatLab, my program's probably mostly the same. Uses nearly the same loops, can't get anywhere without them.

Anyway, cheers.
TK

Edit: Founds it (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1026494)

Aquillion
2009-01-22, 10:05 PM
Oooooh, super! Thanks for suggesting them I have to get a pair! Where can I find them?! :3


Sounds like I'm buying shoes or something. xD
Sadly, what they failed to mention is that Kaorti weapons count as exotic (and if you put it on an already exotic weapon, it counts exotic twice, so you'd normally need Exotic Weapons Proficiency with both the weapon and the resin.) You can read up on it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a).

However.

You might consider taking a level in Master of Masks to get the Gladiator mask, which grants proficiency with all exotic weapons (including that.) Obviously not worth it just for Katori resin, but there are other nice exotic weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) as well. For instance, a Jovar has a base damage of 2d6 and a crit range of 18-20, which matters somewhat when you're aiming for a lot of criticals. Alternatively, a Flindbar gives +2 to disarm and a free disarm attempt every time you critical. Plus you'll be able to carry a bunch of situational weapons, like a Composite Greatbow for when you do have to fight at extra-long range, a Razor Net for debuffing, or a Whip Dagger for when you need 15-foot reach.

(Of course, wearing a mask all the time has decidedly serious fluff implications, so you have to decide if that fits your vision of the character or not. You might be able to convince your DM to let the 'mask' be something else that occupies the same slot, since they sound pretty lenient.)

Draz74
2009-01-22, 11:09 PM
Hmmm... but to confirm a critical I only need to roll a hit against their AC - 4 , wouldn't I get a better result with a wider margin to crit than a better chance to confirm it?

The scabbard would have the added 3/day limitation which won't suit my character too well.

So buy more than one scabbard :smallsmile:

I'm definitely not sure that this is better than other people's suggestions. Especially not with your DM's crazy rule that Keen and Improved Critical stack. But automatic crit confirmation is not to be shrugged off so lightly. Crit confirmations miss a lot in my experience. (And if you were planning to take that sub-par feat Power Critical, you'll save a feat by doing this auto-confirm trick.)

I admit, I developed this strategy for a character who was far less willing to spend resources on his critical hits (but still wanted them to be the backbone of his melee capability), while your character sounds willing to do anything but multiclass, spend as many feats as necessary, for crits' sake. So it may just be a different situation.

Lycanthromancer
2009-01-22, 11:52 PM
Check out the collision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#collision) weapon enhancement. It's multiplied on a critical hit. Also check the manyfang enhancement on the manyfang dagger in Serpent Kingdoms. Now, combine.

Myou
2009-01-23, 04:52 AM
Sadly, what they failed to mention is that Kaorti weapons count as exotic (and if you put it on an already exotic weapon, it counts exotic twice, so you'd normally need Exotic Weapons Proficiency with both the weapon and the resin.) You can read up on it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a).

However.

You might consider taking a level in Master of Masks to get the Gladiator mask, which grants proficiency with all exotic weapons (including that.) Obviously not worth it just for Katori resin, but there are other nice exotic weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) as well. For instance, a Jovar has a base damage of 2d6 and a crit range of 18-20, which matters somewhat when you're aiming for a lot of criticals. Alternatively, a Flindbar gives +2 to disarm and a free disarm attempt every time you critical. Plus you'll be able to carry a bunch of situational weapons, like a Composite Greatbow for when you do have to fight at extra-long range, a Razor Net for debuffing, or a Whip Dagger for when you need 15-foot reach.

(Of course, wearing a mask all the time has decidedly serious fluff implications, so you have to decide if that fits your vision of the character or not. You might be able to convince your DM to let the 'mask' be something else that occupies the same slot, since they sound pretty lenient.)

Ahh, darn. I definitely don't want to take a dip just to get the proficiency to use them. Considering that my main damage, sneak attacks doesn't even multiply there's no point losing some dice just to improve the multiplier for my other damage.

the fluff would work in this case, but not the mechanic. xD


So buy more than one scabbard :smallsmile:

I'm definitely not sure that this is better than other people's suggestions. Especially not with your DM's crazy rule that Keen and Improved Critical stack. But automatic crit confirmation is not to be shrugged off so lightly. Crit confirmations miss a lot in my experience. (And if you were planning to take that sub-par feat Power Critical, you'll save a feat by doing this auto-confirm trick.)

I admit, I developed this strategy for a character who was far less willing to spend resources on his critical hits (but still wanted them to be the backbone of his melee capability), while your character sounds willing to do anything but multiclass, spend as many feats as necessary, for crits' sake. So it may just be a different situation.

Do you have any idea how many people I'll have to stab to buy enough? :o

But more seriously, I frown on buying more than one of a uses/day item. I'm sure my DM would insist that you can only use any sacred scabbard 3/day, not each.

The auto-confirmation can't be ued on Keen or Improved Critical weapons though, can it? It just seems to me like boosting my attack rolls would be a better way to make sure I confirm.

To clarify, anything that fits his character and doesn't hamper his neak attacks and death attacks. I've got enough feats that I can afford to spend a few on this.


Check out the collision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#collision) weapon enhancement. It's multiplied on a critical hit. Also check the manyfang enhancement on the manyfang dagger in Serpent Kingdoms. Now, combine.

I'd rather get +2 to hit and crit than +15 damage though. Because if I hit and don't confirm then the damage will suck anyway, and if I do confirm I'll be dealing huge amounds of seak attack damage, making +15 pretty bad.

I don't think I know anyone with Serpent Kingdoms. ^^;

Curmudgeon
2009-01-23, 05:20 AM
Ahh, darn. I definitely don't want to take a dip just to get the proficiency to use them. Considering that my main damage, sneak attacks doesn't even multiply there's no point losing some dice just to improve the multiplier for my other damage. You need to consider Craven damage, which is a bonus of +1 point per character level.
Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied. Your sneak attack d6s aren't multiplied, but your Craven bonus and STR mod are.

Myou
2009-01-23, 07:10 AM
You need to consider Craven damage, which is a bonus of +1 point per character level. Your sneak attack d6s aren't multiplied, but your Craven bonus and STR mod are.

It's good but I didn't want to dip anyway, especially not to get the ability to use a certain kind of weapon that will be very rare.