Vote Up A Campaign Setting: Discussion Thread II

[afroakuma]

Houris? The heck are those?

The main inhabitants of the other plane. I've been avoiding mentioning them because I don't want any questions about them.

Anything else, though? I've been pretty open so far today.

[Lord_Gareth]

Ah. Can do, cap'n.

Did Zihaja's reasons for creating life have anything to do with other overdeities?

Would Zihaja have any reason NOT made up by a DM to contact player characters (that is, does he have contact with mortals on a non-desperation, non-Aspect basis)?

[afroakuma]

Did Zihaja's reasons for creating life have anything to do with other overdeities?

Nope. He's pretty old as overdeities go, and not all that sociable.


Would Zihaja have any reason NOT made up by a DM to contact player characters (that is, does he have contact with mortals on a non-desperation, non-Aspect basis)?

Zihaja has a few designated agents that he uses when he absolutely must. The most blatantly obvious of these is Zaia, the giant naga who encircles the two worlds, although she probably won't be the medium for that kind of message.

The most likely avenue of contact would be the Darshan, the secretive divine prophets of Zihaja. Now, I want to hear from you why Zihaja would contact player characters. Right now. Why would he do this?

[Sereg]

Ok I'll bite.

1. What was Zihaja previously known as and when was this?

2. Zihaja can sometimes make false gods into aspects? Am I understanding this right? How does it work?

EDIT: 3. Ok, Why would Zihaja contact PCs?

[Lord_Gareth]

1. A cult is threatening the balance, and he fears that direct action will cause a repeat of the last time he did something about it. Mortal intervention may prove less...obtrusive.

2. The PCs screwed with something they really, really shouldn't have. He cannot act on them directly for fear of the consequences, but they don't have to know that; Zihaja orders them to fix the problem or face utter destruction.

3. Gods from another plane are attempting to invade. While they aren't a true threat, Zihaja must pay attention to them instead of his own realm. The PCs, well into epic levels, are press-ganged into the unimaginable - doing the Big Z's job.

4. The PCs have discovered something that is best kept secret. Zihaja sends an emissary to explain the situation and, possibly, deal with the problem.

[afroakuma]

1. What was Zihaja previously known as and when was this?

That is number one on the list of things I'm not disclosing. I didn't even tell Zeta and Shadow. He does have a prior identity, though, and anyone with 2E resources and a knack for following clues should be able to guess at it.


2. Zihaja can sometimes make false gods into aspects? Am I understanding this right? How does it work?

Much the same way as when he blows them up. He begins supplying divine magic through a mantle adopted from the beliefs of that particular group, and encourages the real whoever to disappear. Limalia built herself an underground palace and retired; Johoum was too strong to blow up, so he got locked in a transplanar dungeon. Adimas, Qirus and Pashati died; Daq was an agent of Zihaja and just got reassigned. Sidaru is still doing his actual duties and never held any divine power. Umaj never existed. Waharim and Maqur got smote into ten billion pieces.


EDIT: 3. Ok, Why would Zihaja contact PCs?

That's what I'd like to know.


1. A cult is threatening the balance, and he fears that direct action will cause a repeat of the last time he did something about it. Mortal intervention may prove less...obtrusive.

That's pretty much the only one I was able to come up with.


2. The PCs screwed with something they really, really shouldn't have. He cannot act on them directly for fear of the consequences, but they don't have to know that; Zihaja orders them to fix the problem or face utter destruction.

I can't fathom what that would be; the only idea I have is one that, hey, they're already in that position because of the nature of what they did.


3. Gods from another plane are attempting to invade. While they aren't a true threat, Zihaja must pay attention to them instead of his own realm. The PCs, well into epic levels, are press-ganged into the unimaginable - doing the Big Z's job.

That's quite frankly impossible. Kamala is virtually closed to outside planes. You can go out, but good luck ever finding your way back. The standard you set is non-Aspect, non-desperation, non-DM fiat. This reeks of the last two. That's like Ao designating PCs to do his job.


4. The PCs have discovered something that is best kept secret. Zihaja sends an emissary to explain the situation and, possibly, deal with the problem.

No he doesn't; the bureaucracy of his servants monitors that sort of thing, and would deal with it without his knowledge.

Where did you think I put all those archons and angels? :smallwink:

Honestly, I don't understand why you're trying to drag him in. He's not there. He's not accessible. He's not playing. He's not part of anything. He has no domains and doesn't know you from dust.

[Lord_Gareth]

That's what I'd like to know.

Posted some ideas, just above your post ^_^

(Also, Zihaja's former identity? Squirrel Girl)

[Lord_Gareth]

Honestly, I don't understand why you're trying to drag him in. He's not there. He's not accessible. He's not playing. He's not part of anything. He has no domains and doesn't know you from dust.

Because he interests me. I mean, think about it - unlimited cosmic power - and I do mean unlimited and what does he do? He creates planes and then seals them off to create his own private domain. He creates life, and - here's the big one - when problems show up, he doesn't just abandon the project as a loss and move on. He sticks around. What could possibly motivate such a being? I HAVE TO KNOW.

[afroakuma]

Because he interests me.

Yeah, but not what I mean.

What I mean is, I flat out told you he's Ao in a keffiyeh and you're trying to bring him down to greater god, get-involved-because-you're-the-coolest-and-we're-the-PCs level.


I mean, think about it - unlimited cosmic power - and I do mean unlimited and what does he do? He creates planes and then seals them off to create his own private domain. He creates life, and - here's the big one - when problems show up, he doesn't just abandon the project as a loss and move on. He sticks around. What could possibly motivate such a being? I HAVE TO KNOW.

And I assure you, you will - at the time of the setting's release. The information is already there in a detailed timeline. Until then, it's pretty much the highest level of classified in the entire project.

[Lord_Gareth]

Yeah, but not what I mean.

What I mean is, I flat out told you he's Ao in a keffiyeh and you're trying to bring him down to greater god, get-involved-because-you're-the-coolest-and-we're-the-PCs level.

Because, at some point, the PCs will screw with anything that they know exists. I'm preparing for the inevitable, even if the inevitable reads like this:

Confronting Zihaja
You lose.

[afroakuma]

Because, at some point, the PCs will screw with anything that they know exists.

They don't know he exists. He exists, to them, as a thesis. And that's if they're big fans of interrogating "witches" and looking for something that you as DM can fiat away.


I'm preparing for the inevitable, even if the inevitable reads like this:

Confronting Zihaja
You lose.

Actual text:

Confronting Zihaja
You don't know where he is, you don't know how to get there. You're not even sure if he exists. Oh, yeah, and it's all up to DM fiat if you so much as contemplate going Colossal to cast stairs of Madrasah.

[Lord_Gareth]

I meant OOCly :P

- Why'd Zihaja bother being worshipped back in "the day"? Was he benefitting from it somehow? Why doesn't he care about it any more?

- Why'd he create life if he (can't/won't) notice it any more?

- Is Zihaja good-aligned, or did he appoint the celestials as his beauracracy because they're more trustworthy? What's their take on their duties?

- What happens to mortals when they die?

- Okay, how in the nine flaming hells did he hide his planes so well that not even GODS can become a nuisance?

- Time travel; does Zihaja allow it to occur? (The reason I asked the question in that manner is, quite frankly, because time travel would be about the fastest way to rape any kind of balance ever).

[afroakuma]

I meant OOCly :P

Of course. That's when you pull this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112201) on them.


- Why'd Zihaja bother being worshipped back in "the day"? Was he benefitting from it somehow? Why doesn't he care about it any more?

Back in the day, he was one of the few things to worship. Also in the same pantheon - "that rock." :smalltongue:

He was trying to build cultures, enrich his world and channel the flow of divine veneration and energy. Didn't turn out so hot, for reasons I'm not going to disclose now.


- Why'd he create life if he (can't/won't) notice it any more?

Technical demonstration.


- Is Zihaja good-aligned, or did he appoint the celestials as his beauracracy because they're more trustworthy? What's their take on their duties?

It's possible that he was once good-aligned, but he brought in the celestials because they could be trusted to act in accord with his wishes and not covet his creation.


- What happens to mortals when they die?

No.


- Okay, how in the nine flaming hells did he hide his planes so well that not even GODS can become a nuisance?

Ever read that thing about 4-space where the 4D person takes a cube and pulls it into 4-space?

Well, Zihaja literally turned his planar coordinates 90 degrees on a nonspacial axis. He wrapped them all up and made something new and weird. Kamala doesn't have Ethereal connections or Shadow connections, because parts of those planes are what makes up Najmah. Kamala drew from the Inner Planes at its formation, meaning elementals are summoned from within the worlds themselves. In the Astral Plane, Kamala looks like an enormous snail or nautilus shell with a few nonEuclidean bends and spirals in it. You can get out by boring a hole from within, but the reverse doesn't work because you don't know where to put the drill. Instead, you'd have to navigate the entire shell.


- Time travel; does Zihaja allow it to occur? (The reason I asked the question in that manner is, quite frankly, because time travel would be about the fastest way to rape any kind of balance ever).

I said it way back when: no.

[Lord_Gareth]

Technical demonstration.

To whom?!?


It's possible that he was once good-aligned, but he brought in the celestials because they could be trusted to act in accord with his wishes and not covet his creation.

Is Zihaja that mysterious entity that gives Ao the orders?



Ever read that thing about 4-space where the 4D person takes a cube and pulls it into 4-space?

No.


Well, Zihaja literally turned his planar coordinates 90 degrees on a nonspacial axis. He wrapped them all up and made something new and weird. Kamala doesn't have Ethereal connections or Shadow connections, because parts of those planes are what makes up Najmah. Kamala drew from the Inner Planes at its formation, meaning elementals are summoned from within the worlds themselves. In the Astral Plane, Kamala looks like an enormous snail or nautilus shell with a few nonEuclidean bends and spirals in it. You can get out by boring a hole from within, but the reverse doesn't work because you don't know where to put the drill. Instead, you'd have to navigate the entire shell.

However, that still makes sense.

[Mercenary Pen]

And didn't we remove afro's access to sharp objects?

Doesn't matter, he gets POWER as a racial feature.
there's probably even a prestige class named after him... Acolyte of Afroakuma or somesuch

[Sereg]

Doesn't matter, he gets POWER as a racial feature.
there's probably even a prestige class named after him... Acolyte of Afroakuma or somesuch

Anyone who makes that would make me very happy. It would probably require POWER points and have class features like smite fish.

[lesser_minion]

Anyone who makes that would make me very happy. It would probably require POWER points and have class features like smite fish.

Smite fish, destroy timepiece, Decapitate and Trap Enemy.

I think that was it.

I think we now need both of those threads linked...

[afroakuma]

To whom?!?

Clearly, I'm not telling just yet. It would be a rather big giveaway at this point.


Is Zihaja that mysterious entity that gives Ao the orders?

No. He's on the same tier as Ao, the Highgod, formerly Ouranos, Bor, Danu...


However, that still makes sense.

Glad we're on the same page now.

[LordZarth]

I have a segue question here. So, I was poking around the intarnetz, and took to seeing if Afro or Zeta or somebody cool from here had a blog for me to read, because I was boreded.

So at some point I came across Zeta's userpage, which I came across from a comment of his on EE's crosspost of the Oaves. This told me that Zeta had no blogs I could read; the only ones he had were HoZ related ones, which were, of course, locked.

The interesting thing is the Fax Celestis was listed as privy to the contents of these blogs, which brings me to the question: I knew that Fax had been told some secret information; I knew that you were collaborating with him to bring HoZ to his system, but to what degree is he involved in HoZ?

[afroakuma]

I have a segue question here. So, I was poking around the intarnetz, and took to seeing if Afro or Zeta or somebody cool from here had a blog for me to read, because I was boreded.

After VUACS I will. Until then, no. :smallbiggrin:


The interesting thing is the Fax Celestis was listed as privy to the contents of these blogs, which brings me to the question: I knew that Fax had been told some secret information; I knew that you were collaborating with him to bring HoZ to his system, but to what degree is he involved in HoZ?

Fax is associated with HoZ as well as Lords of Avramir in that we are to be the official settings for his system. He is not contributing directly to HoZ.

[LordZarth]

After VUACS I will. Until then, no. :smallbiggrin:

What would this be about? Homebrew? D&D commentary? Books? Newfoundland?

[afroakuma]

What would this be about? Homebrew? D&D commentary? Books? Newfoundland?

Homebrew. I don't live in Newfoundland, I live in Nova Scotia.

Now, granted, I do have a restaurant review blog, but chances are it will be of little use to you. :smallwink:

[LordZarth]

Homebrew. I don't live in Newfoundland, I live in Nova Scotia.

Now, granted, I do have a restaurant review blog, but chances are it will be of little use to you. :smallwink:

Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, same sorta thang. :smalltongue:

Restaurant review? How professional! I shall read it.

*waits* :smallcool:

[afroakuma]

Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, same sorta thang. :smalltongue:

Excuse me??? :annoyed:

[Zeta Kai]

Excuse me??? :annoyed:

Great, another thing to raise the boy's ire. :smallsigh:

[lesser_minion]

Great, another thing to raise the boy's ire. :smallsigh:

Well, I'd probably be setting Pseudonatural Paragon Half-Fiend Tarrasques on people if someone said the equivalent to me, so he seems to have kept his cool remarkably well.


Fax is associated with HoZ as well as Lords of Avramir in that we are to be the official settings for his system. He is not contributing directly to HoZ.

If you're both making efforts to enhance class balance... aren't you worried that the end result could be fixed too much? As in, wizards get nerfed into the ground while the glorious martially trained Fencers, Dreadnoughts and Warlords run rampage in the deserts, happily bisecting anyone who even thinks of wearing a pointy hat?

Although I guess that may be one reason why Fax gets exclusive preview access.

[afroakuma]

If you're both making efforts to enhance class balance... aren't you worried that the end result could be fixed too much? As in, wizards get nerfed into the ground while the glorious martially trained Fencers, Dreadnoughts and Warlords run rampage in the deserts, happily bisecting anyone who even thinks of wearing a pointy hat?

Well, you see, we're doing it for 3.X; some of what we've done is close to what Fax already has. And we're only doing it, in the main, by addition. Fax is the one with rule-spanning changes.

Any other questions?

[lesser_minion]

Well, you see, we're doing it for 3.X; some of what we've done is close to what Fax already has. And we're only doing it, in the main, by addition. Fax is the one with rule-spanning changes.

Any other questions?

I guess you're right.

I'm only really worried about it because one of your schemes is to remove the wizard's invincibility - but Fax is also doing the same thing. I'm pretty sure it should all be balanced overall, I'm just worried that some of your ideas (making characters ignore specific spells) could end up tipping the scales too much against wizards.

Saying that, it shouldn't happen, and I wouldn't mind if it did (I prefer sorcerers, and d20r sorcerers aren't going to be hit too hard by your improvements).

[afroakuma]

I guess you're right.

'Course I'm right.


I'm only really worried about it because one of your schemes is to remove the wizard's invincibility - but Fax is also doing the same thing.

No, no, no... Fax is quite literally stripping away the wizard's invincibility. We're just marketing a few magic bullets. And killing gate.


I'm pretty sure it should all be balanced overall, I'm just worried that some of your ideas (making characters ignore specific spells) could end up tipping the scales too much against wizards.

Not a chance. We're limiting wizard cheese, and saying that our fighters are, in fact, cool enough that they can go punch out the wizard.


Saying that, it shouldn't happen, and I wouldn't mind if it did (I prefer sorcerers, and d20r sorcerers aren't going to be hit too hard by your improvements).

Not gonna; oh, and our sorcerers are cooler now too.

Questions unrelated to crunch?

[Zeta Kai]

Yes, I'm not concerned about tipping the scales in the non-caster's favor. We've discussed it, & our settings crunch is all about addition: we're adding feats, spells, magic items, et cetera. It just so happens that our design philosophy is such that the casters may get cool stuff, but the non-casters get cool stuff that can defend against enemy casters. Everybody wins, but non-casters especially don't lose.

Also, our setting's cosmology is such that the most egregious caster cheese (gate cheese, I'm looking at you) simply cannot function. It's not out fault, the votes went that way. But if you took our feats & spells to a more normal planar multiverse, you'd still end up with better class balance.

[vegetalss4]

Questions unrelated to crunch?

I got a few

creation stories, does every religion got one, or do some of them share?
if yes who share/ who have their own?
are any of the correct?

how about doomsday prophecies? does any religion have one? if yes which?
could i get one?(eiter a creation story or a doomsday prophecies)

[Lord_Gareth]

Are there any notable Ghuls in the setting? Mysterious nighttime entities in the vein of, say, Bloody Mary? Is necromancy an auto-evil card in this setting?

What are some notable "villains" from the past twenty years? Are any of them still around?

[afroakuma]

Are there any notable Ghuls in the setting?

Yep.


Mysterious nighttime entities in the vein of, say, Bloody Mary?

Yes, and worse besides.


Is necromancy an auto-evil card in this setting?

As I already said, it depends what you're doing with said necromancy. Are we talking soul-sucking? Animating zombies? Creating vampires? What?

[Lord_Gareth]

Zombies and intelligent undead with the option not to feed off of the living (such as Ghouls).

[afroakuma]

Are two different matters entirely. Also, ghouls require flesh. It says so. :smallconfused:

[afroakuma]

...which leads me to wonder what you're really asking?

[Vadin]

Is it considered evil in the setting to make an undead that eats other undead?

[Lord_Gareth]

Are two different matters entirely. Also, ghouls require flesh. It says so. :smallconfused:

Flesh, yes, but not living or even sentient flesh. A ghoul can eat sheep, corpses and, for that matter, those jackals that keep attacking flocks. Hell, now that I think about it, ghouls can be some of the most helpful, friendly undead ever...

[afroakuma]

Flesh, yes, but not living or even sentient flesh. A ghoul can eat sheep, corpses and, for that matter, those jackals that keep attacking flocks. Hell, now that I think about it, ghouls can be some of the most helpful, friendly undead ever...

Which yet again makes me want to know what, exactly, is the real question here?

[Lord_Gareth]

Are you sticking to the (lameass) WotC stance that undeath = auto evil? For that matter, is the (retarded) negative energy = evil, positive energy = nuetral stance being retained?

[afroakuma]

Are you sticking to the (lameass) WotC stance that undeath = auto evil? For that matter, is the (retarded) negative energy = evil, positive energy = nuetral stance being retained?

Loaded question.

Some forms of undead (read: mummies) are not necessarily evil. Creation of some forums of undead (read: mummies) is not necessarily evil.

Similarly, skeletons and zombies, and the creation thereof, are not evil. All you're doing is harnessing a form of energy to animate inanimate matter. Meddling with souls and negative is always evil. Meddling with souls and positive energy is at best neutral. Resurrection is not a good act.

Have I answered you appropriately? Once again, tell me what you really want to know. Straight out. If you want to know "can I have Lawful Good ghouls in this setting?" then ask me that. Straight out.

[Juhn]

Sounds to me like he's asking something along the lines of "can I have Good-aligned [x undead], or play a Good necromancer and still do the whole raising-the-dead thing"?

But then, that's just what I'm getting out of it.

[afroakuma]

Sounds to me like he's asking something along the lines of "can I have Good-aligned [x undead], or play a Good necromancer and still do the whole raising-the-dead thing"?

But then, that's just what I'm getting out of it.

Yeah, and that's what I want to wrench out of him. Right now.

[Lord_Gareth]

Sounds to me like he's asking something along the lines of "can I have Good-aligned [x undead], or play a Good necromancer and still do the whole raising-the-dead thing"?

But then, that's just what I'm getting out of it.

This statement is correct.

[afroakuma]

Sounds to me like he's asking something along the lines of "can I have Good-aligned [x undead]

A good-aligned what? Which one, and for what purpose?


or play a Good necromancer and still do the whole raising-the-dead thing"?

What are you raising, and to what purpose?

[Lord_Gareth]

The reason I'm asking about undeath in general is because most undead don't have to feed on the living. Wights can drain livestock, vampires can too, ghouls can eat corpses, et cetera.

Basically, though, I'm asking about good or neutral aligned wights, ghouls, ghasts, and vampires (and spawn). As far as necromancers, would it be evil to, say, raid a cemetery to make zombies to build a house? A fortress? Would it be evil to raise skeletons from defeated foes for general labor/combat (not necessarily conquest)? Ghouls as travelling companions? Wight bodyguards?

[afroakuma]

The reason I'm asking about undeath in general is because most undead don't have to feed on the living. Wights can drain livestock, vampires can too, ghouls can eat corpses, et cetera.

Yes, but why are you attempting to inflict your personal views on this setting? I already gave you lizardfolk that cannibalize their dead.


Basically, though, I'm asking about good or neutral aligned wights, ghouls, ghasts, and vampires (and spawn).

If you're making them: it's evil to do so. Forcing back a soul via negative energy into a dead body, no matter how well-preserved, is cruel, heinous and against the laws of the afterlife. Keeping a soul away from the bearers is just as bad.

If you are one: so sorry for you. Chances are you're evil. It's not the negative energy that does it; it's the experience. Well, that and the fact that your waking dreams are haunted by scary doom beasts who want to eat your soul, and the fact that you crave food on the wrong side of cooked and the wrong side of dead. So de facto: no, you're evil. Neutral at best. You want to be the odd man out? Who am I kidding, of course you do. You follow the standard D&D rules of "Always means 95%" or whatever it is.

Again, negative energy is not evil. What it's used to do often is.


As far as necromancers, would it be evil to, say, raid a cemetery to make zombies to build a house? A fortress?

It would be rude, because really.

In and of itself, though, no. The act of animating nonsentient undead is not evil.


Would it be evil to raise skeletons from defeated foes for general labor/combat (not necessarily conquest)?

Nope. You might get complaints, death threats etc. for being creepy, but again, not evil.


Ghouls as travelling companions?

Evil. Probably pretty unpleasant, too.


Wight bodyguards?

Evil. Les unpleasant.

[Thane of Fife]

If you are one: so sorry for you. Chances are you're evil. It's not the negative energy that does it; it's the experience. Well, that and the fact that your waking dreams are haunted by scary doom beasts who want to eat your soul, and the fact that you crave food on the wrong side of cooked and the wrong side of dead. So de facto: no, you're evil. Neutral at best. You want to be the odd man out? Who am I kidding, of course you do. You follow the standard D&D rules of "Always means 95%" or whatever it is.

I recall seeing the idea somewhere that such undead are, in fact, not animated by their original souls, but rather by evil souls from the Lower Planes. Surely it's easier to summon a tormented soul from the Nine Hells to animate a corpse then it is to draw a spirit from the paradise of Elysia, after all. And if they just happen to wreak terrible havoc while they're here, oh well, right?

I thought it was an interesting line of thought.

[afroakuma]

Well, we don't have those luxuries. We have two routing systems for souls, and that's it.

Making a ghoul inflicts harmful negative energy on the world, because no matter what it's feeding on you're essentially adding entropy to the world, since the ghoul can't participate in the natural cycle. The fact that this taint can spread is not exactly reassuring.

At any rate, a soul caged in an undead body is being powered by evil magic. It's just running on negative energy. Pulling souls out of the system simply isn't done, since it's a crime against Zihaja.

[Thane of Fife]

Pulling souls out of the system simply isn't done, since it's a crime against Zihaja.

But I thought that people didn't know about Zihaja....

[afroakuma]

They do not. I'm talking about it being naturally evil.

Hence, necromancy dealing with the souls of the deceased is evil.

[Lord_Gareth]

Okay...so why aren't mummies evil? They run on the same negative energy as everyone else...

[afroakuma]

:smallconfused: Did you just read one "no" and assume everything went that way?

Negative energy is not evil. Some mummies are. Some mummies are not. Mummification, unlike ghoul-ification, is more often than not an elective process involving tradition, respect and honor.

Mummies do not eat; they do not taint or otherwise consume. The same is true for skeletons, zombies and shadows.

Positive energy is not good. Many of its uses are. An example of one that is not is resurrection.

[Lord_Gareth]

Alright; what about emergency or voluntary undeath? Examples include: A party member goes down and there's no way to reach a cleric in time that can raise him (if indeed one even exists as an NPC). The party turns him into a Wight to preserve his knowledge/skills/lulz. Alternately, a wizard becomes a lich, or even a vampire, to continue their studies.

For that matter, does creating an intelligent undead creatue actually bind the soul that used to own the body back into it??

[afroakuma]

Alright; what about emergency or voluntary undeath?

Why are you pushing this? Please explain.


Examples include: A party member goes down and there's no way to reach a cleric in time that can raise him (if indeed one even exists as an NPC). The party turns him into a Wight to preserve his knowledge/skills/lulz.

That is an evil act. There are methods available to do what you need without raising the undead. A spell called Pravah's tomb exists precisely for this circumstance.


Alternately, a wizard becomes a lich, or even a vampire, to continue their studies.

Assuming either even exists in this setting; the means to accomplish either are pretty horrific. Vamping out, in particular, would be a form of vile suffering that wracks the souls of others (dominate gaze) and spreads an unnatural taint (vampire spawn).


For that matter, does creating an intelligent undead creatue actually bind the soul that used to own the body back into it??

Well, if not, then they go auto-evil from binding an evil soul in.

In this setting: yes, assuming the original soul is currently available and not being used to reupholster the radishes.

[Lord_Gareth]

Undead are a particular interest of mine, and I feel that WotC really dropped the ball with both the undead and necromancy in general. Some of my most interesting characters have been undead, and since you keep shutting down my lines of questioning about Zihaja, I've moved on to my next line of interest.

(Incidentally, those undead include: a ghouled druid [he saw undeath as a survival adaptation and chose a form that allowed him to continue to participate in the predator/prey cycle), a wight paladin [fell in battle with wights, which were then ownsauced by the party before he rose. He ran into some awkwardness with his church]).

The other reason is that some of your statements don't seem to make consistent sense. Ghouls are evil because they /can/ infect others, whereas mummies (with that wonderful rot) aren't necessarily - and the only difference is how voluntary you are, which may or may not be involved in ghouling anyway? It's not making sense, man!

[Lappy9000]

If Planescape: Torment taught me anything, it was that the dead are far nicer than living people.

[afroakuma]

Undead are a particular interest of mine

I garnered that. :smalltongue:


and I feel that WotC really dropped the ball with both the undead and necromancy in general.

Which is fair, but as I said, try to keep any personal agendas out of the mix, okay?

Some of my most interesting characters have been undead, and since you keep shutting down my lines of questioning about Zihaja, I've moved on to my next line of interest.

Yes, but what on earth makes you think I'm going to put a giant "Push Here To Be Undead, It's Okay" button smack dab in the middle of a campaign setting that has little to do with them?

The current rules allow for good undead characters at the DM's discrection. I haven't said that it's not permitted; what I've said is that the necromancer responsible shouldn't be patting himself on the back.


The other reason is that some of your statements don't seem to make consistent sense. Ghouls are evil because they /can/ infect others, whereas mummies (with that wonderful rot) aren't necessarily - and the only difference is how voluntary you are, which may or may not be involved in ghouling anyway? It's not making sense, man!

No, you misunderstood.

Ghouls are evil because they are predatory (does NOT matter on what, they're still going after living flesh) and thereby a detriment to the ecosystem, as they are basically walking, talking entropy wells in a world that can't comfortably survive with the resources it has for the living. The curse that a mummy passes on turns the victim to dust; the curse that a ghoul passes on makes another ghoul. And yes, since one is involuntary and the other not, there is more than a fair deal of relevance there, as well.

[Lord_Gareth]

Okay, so non-infectious undead (liches, mummies) are the ones most likely to end up good-aligned, whereas predatory undead (ghouls, wights, Michael Jackson) are most likely to be evil? Do I have it right now?

[afroakuma]

That's half the battle, yes.

The other half, as I've said, is that sentient undead, especially those who have entered the state involuntarily, are almost guaranteed to be evil. The act of creating a sentient undead is evil. Good and neutral mummies (and many evil ones) do not arise as a result of create undead, which is generally employed to engender a servitor. If actually trying to revive the high priest of whoever as a mummy, with said individual's authorization, there is an unaligned way to go about doing so.

[Lord_Gareth]

Does said method only produce mummies?

With all that out of the way, here's a few other things: are any new undead being introduced into the setting? Sun gods are traditionally enemies of the undead - does this remain true here? Is it evil to awaken a mindless undead being (such as a skeleton) and would such an action imbue the being with a soul?

[afroakuma]

Does said method only produce mummies?

Said method is not going to give you what you want, no. Ask the question you intend answered. :smalltongue:


With all that out of the way, here's a few other things: are any new undead being introduced into the setting?

Only one.


Sun gods are traditionally enemies of the undead - does this remain true here?

Johoum's evil clerics are not permitted to rebuke or control the undead. Beyond that, and beyond using them as scare tactics, the church of Johoum largely ignores undeath.


Is it evil to awaken a mindless undead being (such as a skeleton) and would such an action imbue the being with a soul?

:sigh:

Fine.

Whatever.

New rules:

Any undead can be any alignment and sentient and free-willed and a lovely individual to know and truly heroic with paladin levels that aren't based on alignment because alignment is a stupid system anyway.

Are we all happy now?

[Lord_Gareth]

Afro? Calm thyself. I'm asking because you implied that the afterlife and undeath don't exactly get along. I've never quite understood how awaken works with regards to souls anyway - is an awakened animal companion going to an afterlife or not?

In any event, awaken undead functions only on mindless undead, of which there are a grand total of...

...Wait for it, let me check Libris Mortis...

...Wait for it, Fiend Folio...

...Wait for it, every WotC book ever printed...

Two, it turns out - skeletons and zombies.

[afroakuma]

Afro? Calm thyself.

Let me explain something: what you do or do not do with the undead, whether highly imaginative or otherwise, is not the prerogative of this campaign setting to dictate. Which is why I find these probing questions about whether or not undead characters are permissible to be slightly annoying. Do understand: it read as a shot at another loophole.

Now; let me assure you, I am quite calm. At 2 AM, I don't have the energy to be anything but.



I'm asking because you implied that the afterlife and undeath don't exactly get along.

Neither do the afterlife and resurrection. The afterlife doesn't really cooperate with short metaphysical visits at all. Physical visits, sure. Metaphysical, no.


I've never quite understood how awaken works with regards to souls anyway - is an awakened animal companion going to an afterlife or not?

It's always been my ruling that animals of any sort go to an afterlife. They do have souls, after all.

Awaken undead creates sentience, much as awaken creates sentience. In neither case does it create a soul. An awakened animal has the soul it started out with. An awakened tree has no soul.

[Lord_Gareth]

So a mindless undead, being basically a puppet tugged along by neg. energy, doesn't aquire a soul once awakened - got it.

...Wow, that's gotta be really depressing for Jim Bones over there. Sorry Jim.

Alright; Grayhawk had...something that happened to souls during the afterlife (they never said what, which has lead me to believe that powerful clerics on Oerth cheat death by casting true ressurection once dead) and Faerun has the whole lameass Petitioners deal - do recently departed souls become anything on Kamala?

Do any particular churches promote undeath? Any particular opponents thereof?

Where exactly do the "elemental spirits" for golems come from?

...Dear god, those could be genies.

*Is not making golems in this setting. Ever*

[afroakuma]

So a mindless undead, being basically a puppet tugged along by neg. energy, doesn't aquire a soul once awakened - got it.

Correct.


Alright; Grayhawk had...something that happened to souls during the afterlife (they never said what, which has lead me to believe that powerful clerics on Oerth cheat death by casting true ressurection once dead)

I do not recall. Currently they subscribe to the petitioner system.


and Faerun has the whole lameass Petitioners deal -

...which apparently you dislike. Honestly, is there anything of which you approve? :smalltongue:


do recently departed souls become anything on Kamala?

Depends how recent. Very recently departed souls get picked on by passing birds.


Do any particular churches promote undeath? Any particular opponents thereof?

None; the cults of Akasha and Zaia oppose undead as a general policy, but they're not so common that anyone makes a crusade out of it.

Sorry, but much like fey beforehand, you picked the wrong monster type to champion. :smalltongue:


Where exactly do the "elemental spirits" for golems come from?

...Dear god, those could be genies.

*Is not making golems in this setting. Ever*

Well, they could be, if you hadn't put them somewhere else.

Elementals are pre-baby genies.

[Lord_Gareth]

Bah, you can't sit there and tell me that the Petitoners aren't lame as all hell. Human spends his whole life getting to level 50 and then he's reduced to a one hit-die piece of crap that couldn't defend itself against a freaking dire rat? Lameness, I say! LAMENESS!

NEXT CREATURE TYPE:

Constructs - how common are they? Are there any new ones planned?

[Zeta Kai]

Bah, you can't sit there and tell me that the Petitoners aren't lame as all hell. Human spends his whole life getting to level 50 and then he's reduced to a one hit-die piece of crap that couldn't defend itself against a freaking dire rat? Lameness, I say! LAMENESS!

NEXT CREATURE TYPE:

Constructs - how common are they? Are there any new ones planned?

Two. Silly me, I didn't put enough fairies, zombies, & robots into our Arabian Nights setting. :smalltongue: That'll have to be fixed... NOT.

[Thane of Fife]

Depends how recent. Very recently departed souls get picked on by passing birds.

Ah, the "Reverse Stork" afterlife. I hear it's very popular with the young folks.

[afroakuma]

Ah, the "Reverse Stork" afterlife. I hear it's very popular with the young folks.

Funny how you'd think stork and not vulture.

[Lord_Gareth]

Two. Silly me, I didn't put enough fairies, zombies, & robots into our Arabian Nights setting. :smalltongue: That'll have to be fixed... NOT.

Seriously, I demand more faeries and robots! :smalltongue:

I wasn't actually asking along the lines of "robot", though; I was thinking more akin to, say, homonculii, or the bogun, rather than golems and nimblewrights.

- What's your favorite new spell for the setting (you don't have to say what it does, I just want a name)?

- What are some common household pets for humans? Kobolds? Lizardfolk?

- Does this setting have slavery? How common is it?

- Are there any commonly-known, persistant magical phenomenon (such as "haunted" locations or gates to the other plane)?

[afroakuma]

Seriously, I demand more faeries and robots! :smalltongue:

Not a chance.


I wasn't actually asking along the lines of "robot", though; I was thinking more akin to, say, homonculii, or the bogun, rather than golems and nimblewrights.

Ah. In that case, one.


- What's your favorite new spell for the setting (you don't have to say what it does, I just want a name)?

Oh, gods... there's too many to choose! :smallsmile:

I'm betting Zeta will say Nathar's nightmarish nemesis, because that one blew his mind when I showed it to him. Myself... oh, there's just too many. I'll draw a pair, though: time of the hunter and unquenchable fire of the sun.


- What are some common household pets for humans? Kobolds? Lizardfolk?

I've answered this question already. Same sort of pets you'd find in Arabian cultures.


- Does this setting have slavery? How common is it?

I've answered this one already, too. Yes, it does. It's more prevalent among genies, but indenture is a cultural punishment in the lizardfolk nations and outright slavery is demonstrated in one city-state.


- Are there any commonly-known, persistant magical phenomenon (such as "haunted" locations or gates to the other plane)?

Yes.

[Lappy9000]

Funny how you'd think stork and not vulture.I'd like to see some dire kiwi, meself.

[Thane of Fife]

Funny how you'd think stork and not vulture.

See, I was playing off the idea that storks bring babies. Here, however, birds take people away from life, instead of bringing them to it. Hence, "Reverse Stork".

Hah-hah.

[afroakuma]

Well, some cultures have links between death and birds. The Ba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_soul#Ba_.28individual_personality.29), for example.

[Zeta Kai]

I wasn't actually asking along the lines of "robot", though; I was thinking more akin to, say, homonculii, or the bogun, rather than golems and nimblewrights.

Well, there are 1.5 new golems, a homonculus-like ooze, a non-monster giant walking dungeon. Oh, & some high-level Alchemists probably spend way too much time with clockwork gadgets. Good enough?

[Juhn]

The clockwork part certainly makes me happy, at least.

[afroakuma]

The clockwork part certainly makes me happy, at least.

Don't get too enthused; setting policy is to ignore them.

[Lord_Gareth]

a non-monster giant walking dungeon.

....What? Weee need additional characters!

[Juhn]

Eh, as long as they're there.

[afroakuma]

Eh, as long as they're there.

...which, as I just said, for all intents and purposes they are not.

[Juhn]

What, no cameos?

[Lappy9000]

Well, there are 1.5 new golems, a homonculus-like ooze, a non-monster giant walking dungeon.Homonculus-like ooze, sweet!

And giant walking dungeons are always fun :smallbiggrin:

[Waspinator]

Someone needs to make a second walking dungeon so they can have a kaiju battle.

[Lord_Gareth]

Oooh, ooh!

-Will we see the villains/monsters from VuaV and VuaM in this setting?

[Mercenary Pen]

Oooh, ooh!

-Will we see the villains/monsters from VuaV and VuaM in this setting?

I'm guessing NO!

I believe the majority of these do not fit the setting theme or cosmology, in particular, the Silver Hellstar relies upon the existence of planes which cannot be found in this setting.

[Zeta Kai]

Oooh, ooh!

-Will we see the villains/monsters from VuaV and VuaM in this setting?

Unfortunately not. As cool as some of them may be, almost none of them would fit the setting, & we've made many, many monsters that DO fit. And as much as I'd like to make my job easier by copying my previous work, so far 99.9% of the homebrew for this project is brand new.

[Lord_Gareth]

It's alright; I didn't really expect any of them to be canon. I'm sure some of them can be made to fit for a DMs particular campaign (in a mystic oasis there is a single flower of the Maiden's Weeping, still looking for love...), but 's alright.

[afroakuma]

Yeah; I thought that was made official in the first thread.

Of the villains that exist, the Maiden's Weeping, Dandag the Quiet, Prince Meridius, the Thief King's Palace and the Omenwrath could probably be recalibrated to fit the setting's flavor. Maybe Prystele, but that's pretty tough.

[Lord_Gareth]

I thought the Augmoha might fit too - the larger version, that is. The one that eats cities for bait.

[afroakuma]

Nah; it looks too Aberration-esque for this setting.

[Zeta Kai]

Having looked over my monsters again, I don't think any of them fit the setting very well. Oh well. :smallsigh:

[afroakuma]

Not the ones you brewed for the setting, I hope. :smalleek:

[vegetalss4]

we try again

creation stories, does every religion got one, or do some of them share?
if yes who share/ who have their own?
are any of them correct?

how about doomsday prophecies? does any religion have one? if yes which?
could i get one?(either a creation story or a doomsday prophecies)

[afroakuma]

The Wizard's Ambition

The time had finally come, and the apprentice watched as his master coerced, appealed, cajoled, bargained and threatened. His servant, the marid, was resolute: He would not grant the master's wish.

The apprentice marveled at how alike the two had become. The master was stronger and sleeker, and took more readily to water. His eyes were gold and his skin was blue. The younger wizard thought back to the day when his master had bound the marid into his staff, a day so very long ago, and how through communion with his unwilling servant the master had grown by leaps and bounds in power.

Furiously, the elder wizard raised his cerulean hand and commanded his genie slave back into binding. As the entity vanished into the reliquary staff, the master took it in hand and spoke ancient, terrible ritual words into it. From within came a scream, as the staff began to shudder violently, and then a cry: "You have stolen all from me, but you will never, ever get what you wish!"

Blue flame shot out, blinding the young apprentice and singeing the scrolls in his hand. When again he could see, there was his master, no longer even remotely human but now a true marid, a genie as his slave had been.

As the master wizard turned to greet his apprentice, the smile melted from his face, for the younger stood reading from a scroll the spell of binding a spirit in place. Now the master could see everything, and he could see the ring on the apprentice's finger that would serve as his own reliquary... a genie's prison for the man who would be a genie.

[Alteran]

Another great story, it's been too long since we've had a proper lore.

This raises questions about the Genie Lord, but I'm content to wait until release to find out exactly how that works.

[afroakuma]

I seemed to recall protests about why wizards wouldn't teach other wizards.

That up there? That would be why.

[Alteran]

Well, it looks like in this case a wizard did teach another wizard. Still, I know what you mean.

Also, one question after all. How much does a bound genie affect its master? The apprentice wizard remarked how much the master was changing to be similar to a Marid, even before he (apparently) consumed the bound Marid and became one himself.

[afroakuma]

Well, it looks like in this case a wizard did teach another wizard. Still, I know what you mean.

That's my point. Look where that got him.

[Alteran]

That's my point. Look where that got him.

I know what your point is, I'm just saying that apparently it has happened. Sort of a half-joke, and apparently not a good one.

My question stands.

[Zeta Kai]

The type of genie makes a significant mechanical difference, & the genie will probably damn your name every chance it gets (like some kind of hateful familiar), but that's about it, AFAIK.

[afroakuma]

So, who likes teasers? :smallbiggrin:

[Alteran]

The type of genie makes a significant mechanical difference, & the genie will probably damn your name every chance it gets (like some kind of hateful familiar), but that's about it, AFAIK.

So was this:



The apprentice marveled at how alike the two had become. The master was stronger and sleeker, and took more readily to water. His eyes were gold and his skin was blue.


Just for the purposes of a story?



So, who likes teasers? :smallbiggrin:

Why, I do!

[afroakuma]

Oh. Well, no. Djinn Lords basically turn into genies.

[Alteran]

Why would they want to turn into genies, if they've seen how genies can be bound and manipulated by magic-users? Is there a level of power that they can't achieve as a mortal? I don't know if genies are immortal, but mortal seems like an appropriate word to differentiate between them and normal humanoids.

[afroakuma]

What's the number one thing a genie is known for, Alteran?

[Lappy9000]

What's the number one thing a genie is known for, Alteran?Performing awesome musical numbers? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEryAoLfnAA)

[Alteran]

Granting wishes?

Edit: I pressed the submit button by accident before I was done, I thought I had canceled it early enough to stop the post. Apparently not. See lower post for my full response.

[afroakuma]

Indeed. On both, let's face it. :smallbiggrin:

Now why on earth would a wizard want the power to grant wishes?

[Alteran]

Granting wishes?

I see, a wizard who becomes a genie would be able to grant wishes for himself. This would be especially useful if a bound genie refuses to do so, which is exactly what happened in the story. That makes sense.

[Athaniar]

So, who likes teasers? :smallbiggrin:

Please, sir, I want some more.

And the genie thing was interesting. It looks like a very interesting class, the Genie Lord.

[Zeta Kai]

Well, if you like teasers, then here are 3 for the Paladins in the house: 1 feat, 1 spell, & 1 magic item.

Feat:
Zealous Prayer [General]

Your ceaseless devotion & prayer have been acknowledged by your deity.

Prerequisites: Wisdom 15+, Paladin level 8th.

Benefit: You gain an additional spell slot for each level of paladin spell you can cast.

Special: If you fall from grace, you lose all benefits of this feat until you have received an atonement exclusively to restore access to these slots.


Spell:
Dismiss Suffering
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Blk 3, Pal 3
Components: M, DF
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Silently calling upon the power of your deity, you channel positive energy through your body, washing away many serious afflictions. You may negate any & all of the following adverse conditions: ability damage, blindness, deafness, exhaustion, fatigue, paralysis, poison & being sickened.

Material Component: Incense or herbs & two rods of gold, each worth 25gp. These must be made into a burnt offering (or equivalent sacrifice) within 24 hours, or the caster loses the ability to cast this spell until he or she receives atonement.


Magic Item:
Spear of Hallowed Wrath

Looks like an ornate spear, made of a white wooden shaft, tipped with a silvery-bladed tip, bound with white leather, & a white feather hanging from both ends.
Glows brightly when held by someone who can wield it.
This +2 flaming holy spear can strike foes in a 30’ line as though you had attacked them yourself. Make attack rolls, confirm critical hits & roll damage against each target individually. Creatures caught in the line take damage as though struck by the weapon directly. Damage Reduction can reduce some or all of this damage.
It bestows one negative level on any evil creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded.
Strong evocation; CL12th; Craft Magic Arms & Armor, divine strike; price 60,301gp; cost 30,301gp + 2,400XP.

[lesser_minion]

Those are quite nice.

I'm not sure what to make of the feat - it's overpowered with respect to the existing feats, but it doesn't overpower paladins. If there are a lot of feats like that, it could work, I guess. Otherwise, you risk the new feats becoming compulsory, at which point they aren't really feats.

The spell is quite nice, although it should be more explicit about not requiring the material components on casting (e.g. "you do not need to provide these at casting - instead, they must be assembled into a burnt offering within 24 hours of you casting the spell. If you fail to do so, you lose access to this spell until you atone."). It just makes things a little clearer (as the general rule is that you have to provide material components immediately, as a free action)

The Spear is pretty powerful, although you might want to be clearer about when you can use the line strike - does it just work on every attack?

[afroakuma]

Those are quite nice.

I'm not sure what to make of the feat - it's overpowered with respect to the existing feats, but it doesn't overpower paladins. If there are a lot of feats like that, it could work, I guess. Otherwise, you risk the new feats becoming compulsory, at which point they aren't really feats.

Can't be compulsory if everything is.

Some paladins won't want the expanded casting. There are other directions they can go.


The Spear is pretty powerful, although you might want to be clearer about when you can use the line strike - does it just work on every attack?

Yep. Every attack.

[Mercenary Pen]

Excellent work from both of you...

Could really do with seeing some more stuff from Shadow Elf though.

[Zeta Kai]

Excellent work from both of you...

Could really do with seeing some more stuff from Shadow Elf though.

Thank you very much.

SE is working tirelessly to bring us 4E material as fast as he can produce it. I'll see if we can coax a spoiler out of him.

And as for the spell, yes, MCs are usually spent at casting, but a special note is there explicitly noting an exception to this with the resulting consequences, so I don't see how rearranging the word order/placement would make it any clearer.

[Shadow_Elf]

*Rummages through Word, Pages and Publisher documents*

Spoiler's on the way folks. You'll have to give me a day or so to find my bearings though, I had four wisdom teeth removed this morning :smallbiggrin:.

[vegetalss4]

that is completely understandable shadow elf

third time's the charm

creation stories, does every religion got one, or do some of them share?
if yes who share/ who have their own?
are any of them correct?

how about doomsday prophecies? does any religion have one? if yes which?
could i get one?(either a creation story or a doomsday prophecies)

[afroakuma]

third time's the charm

No, it in fact is not. I will not be answering any of those questions.

[Lord_Gareth]

The only real beef I have with the feat is that I tend to play non-religious paladins - or, rather, ones that put The Code far above and beyond any gods they might choose to worship.

That spear looks expensive as hell, so it probably isn't "common" per se, but is it "common knowledge"? Or is your paladin about to seriously surprise the hell out of the people he's OMGWTFSMITEing?

Any plans on increasing either the effectiveness or versatility of Smite [alignment] abilities? Are any monsters/classes/races going to aquire nonstandard smites, such as Smite [race] or Smite [gender]?

[afroakuma]

The only real beef I have with the feat is that I tend to play non-religious paladins - or, rather, ones that put The Code far above and beyond any gods they might choose to worship.

As I indicated during the paladin preview, this is a highly religious world. However, paladins can look away from that feat (and its brethren) and grab others if they prefer.


That spear looks expensive as hell, so it probably isn't "common" per se, but is it "common knowledge"? Or is your paladin about to seriously surprise the hell out of the people he's OMGWTFSMITEing?

Anything magic is gonna surprise the hell out of things. Of course, some paladins can also pull that trick off natively... note the spell requirement. :smallwink:


Any plans on increasing either the effectiveness or versatility of Smite [alignment] abilities?

I couldn't possibly discuss that. Paladin with a death attack? Yes please!


Are any monsters/classes/races going to aquire nonstandard smites, such as Smite [race] or Smite [gender]?

You realize how incredibly, profoundly awful those translate in concept, right? :smalleek:

In other words, hells no.

[vegetalss4]

No, it in fact is not. I will not be answering any of those questions.

oh well, at least you told me, here i thought you just kept missing me

[afroakuma]

No; I tend to deliberately ignore questions I don't want to answer.

[Alteran]

I've noticed that. A simple "no" is generally preferable. At least then we know not to keep asking you about it, which is exactly what happened here.

[afroakuma]

I've noticed that. A simple "no" is generally preferable. At least then we know not to keep asking you about it, which is exactly what happened here.

In the first thread I tried this angle. It leads to prying at the edges.

What I prefer now is to selectively exclude questions I don't want to answer from long lists. Most people have been willing to let them drop; Lord_Gareth being a distinct and annoying exception.

Any questions for me that are not related to my response style?

[Athaniar]

Sure. Are all aspects equally likely to have paladins, and if not, which one is the most likely and which one is the least likely?

[afroakuma]

Sure. Are all aspects equally likely to have paladins

God no.


and if not, which one is the most likely

Qirus by far.


and which one is the least likely?

Maqur at 0%.

[afroakuma]

Anything else?

[Shadow_Elf]

I'm not making new powers, but I can preview an Item and a juicy pair of Feats for the wizard. Here goes:

Feat #1:
Master Magician [Wizard]
Prerequisites: Wizard, Cantrips
Benefit: You gain the arcane subtlety, ghost image and dancing lights wizard powers. In addition, your ghost sound and prestidigitation cantrips can be cast as a minor action.

Arcane Subtlety
“Lightning bolt? What lightning bolt?”
At-Will * Arcane, Illusion, Charm, Implement
Free Action Personal
Trigger: You make an attack with the arcane keyword.
Effect: Make an attack against each enemy that witnessed the attack, but was not targeted by it.
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Hit: The target does not see the attack, and its mind composes a rational explanation for what happened. If the target has an Intelligence score of 5 or less, it is unaffected by this power. If the power has an effect that lasts beyond the end of your current turn, the target notices it after the end of your current turn.

Ghost Image
“I swear! The Wizard went that way!”
At-Will * Arcane, Illusion
Minor Action Ranged 10
Target: One unoccupied square within range
Effect: You cause an illusory figure to appear in the square. It can move up to six squares, and then it vanishes around a corner, into a shadow, or down a dark hall. The illusion can be a specific person, or of a specific Medium race. It can also be a Medium animal or monster.

Dancing Lights
“How beautiful, these little lights…”
At-Will * Arcane, Conjuration
Minor Action Ranged 10
Target: Four unoccupied squares within range
Effect: You create a small sphere of coloured light to appear in the square. It sheds bright light in its own square, and in all squares within 3 squares of it. Each light has a speed of fly 8 (hover). As a move action, you can move one light, or move all the lights 4 squares. The lights last 5 minutes.
Special: You can only have one light or dancing lights cantrip active at one time. If you create another light or set of dancing lights, the previous cantrip winks out.


Feat #2:
Advanced Utility [Wizard]
Prerequisites: Level 11, Wizard, Spellbook class feature
Benefit: At the start of each day, you prepare all your known utilities. If you use a daily utility power, you cannot use daily or encounter utility powers of that level for the rest of the day. If you use an encounter utility power, you cannot use daily utility powers of that level for the rest of the day, and you cannot use encounter utility powers of that level for the remainder of the encounter.

Item:

Scabbard of the Winds - Level 14
"A gust of gale force wind accompanies the drawing of a blade from this scabbard"
Wondrous Item - 21,000
Property: This scabbard resizes to fit any light blade or heavy blade. You can draw a weapon from the scabbard as part of the same action used to attack with the weapon.
Power (Encounter): Free Action. Use this power when you draw the weapon contained in the scabbard. Push every creature within 5 squares of you 3 squares. You must have spent one hour attuning a weapon to this scabbard before you can use this power. The attunement lasts until you attune another weapon to the scabbard.


Well, I hope you like em'.

EDIT: Colours fix'd. Thx for the catch, Mercenary Pen.

[Mercenary Pen]

I'm not making new powers, but I can preview an Item and a juicy pair of Feats for the wizard. Here goes:

Feat #1:
Master Magician [Wizard]
Prerequisites: Wizard, Cantrips
Benefit: You gain the arcane subtlety, ghost image and dancing lights wizard powers. In addition, your ghost sound and prestidigitation cantrips can be cast as a minor action.

Arcane Subtlety
“Lightning bolt? What lightning bolt?”
At-Will * Arcane, Illusion, Charm, Implement
Free Action Personal
Trigger: You make an attack with the arcane keyword.
Effect: Make an attack against each enemy that witnessed the attack, but was not targeted by it.
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Hit: The target does not see the attack, and its mind composes a rational explanation for what happened. If the target has an Intelligence score of 5 or less, it is unaffected by this power. If the power has an effect that lasts beyond the end of your current turn, the target notices it after the end of your current turn.

Ghost Image
“I swear! The Wizard went that way!”
At-Will * Arcane, Illusion
Minor Action Ranged 10
Target: One unoccupied square within range
Effect: You cause an illusory figure to appear in the square. It can move up to six squares, and then it vanishes around a corner, into a shadow, or down a dark hall. The illusion can be a specific person, or of a specific Medium race. It can also be a Medium animal or monster.

Dancing Lights
“How beautiful, these little lights…”
At-Will * Arcane, Conjuration
Minor Action Ranged 10
Target: Four unoccupied squares within range
Effect: You create a small sphere of coloured light to appear in the square. It sheds bright light in its own square, and in all squares within 3 squares of it. Each light has a speed of fly 8 (hover). As a move action, you can move one light, or move all the lights 4 squares. The lights last 5 minutes.
Special: You can only have one light or dancing lights cantrip active at one time. If you create another light or set of dancing lights, the previous cantrip winks out.


Feat #2:
Advanced Utility [Wizard]
Prerequisites: Level 11, Wizard, Spellbook class feature
Benefit: At the start of each day, you prepare all your known utilities. If you use a daily utility power, you cannot use daily or encounter utility powers of that level for the rest of the day. If you use an encounter utility power, you cannot use daily utility powers of that level for the rest of the day, and you cannot use encounter utility powers of that level for the remainder of the encounter.

Item:

Scabbard of the Winds - Level 14
"A gust of gale force wind accompanies the drawing of a blade from this scabbard"
Wondrous Item - 21,000
Property: This scabbard resizes to fit any light blade or heavy blade. You can draw a weapon from the scabbard as part of the same action used to attack with the weapon.
Power (Encounter): Free Action. Use this power when you draw the weapon contained in the scabbard. Push every creature within 5 squares of you 3 squares. You must have spent one hour attuning a weapon to this scabbard before you can use this power. The attunement lasts until you attune another weapon to the scabbard.


Well, I hope you like em'.

Yup, those look pretty good... In fact, I can imagine the scabbard being a nice control element for a swordmage or any other striker (or even a wizard at a pinch- I mean, a minor action to draw a dagger, with a free action suddenly placing a group of minions around your pre-placed flaming sphere, where they will suddenly die the moment their respective turns start, that could completely change the balance of an encounter. Even if you're not using dailies, giving this to something squishy means they can open the area around them up, letting in a defender to hold off the minions...)

Edit: You'll notice I doctored the quote to get your coloured titles working on the at-will powers...

[afroakuma]

Yup, those look pretty good... In fact, I can imagine the scabbard being a nice control element for a swordmage or any other striker (or even a wizard at a pinch- I mean, a minor action to draw a dagger, with a free action suddenly placing a group of minions around your pre-placed flaming sphere, where they will suddenly die the moment their respective turns start, that could completely change the balance of an encounter. Even if you're not using dailies, giving this to something squishy means they can open the area around them up, letting in a defender to hold off the minions...)

When Shadow originally came up with the idea I knew we had to have it. He's singlehandedly responsible for us putting magical scabbards in the setting, all of which are awesome.

[Mercenary Pen]

When Shadow originally came up with the idea I knew we had to have it. He's singlehandedly responsible for us putting magical scabbards in the setting, all of which are awesome.

Awesome as in the ability to kill multiple minions without having to make a single attack roll (in this case, under the right circumstances)... Depending on the encounter, that could actually be game-breaking, because that's not just synergy with the wizard's flaming sphere power, it's synergy with every pit of 10ft or deeper, synergy with a significant number of traps, etc.

[afroakuma]

...cliffs, lava, water...

:smallbiggrin:

[Zeta Kai]

Yeah, thanks to SE, we now have the following items:

Scabbard of the Mistral
Scabbard of the Sirocco
Scabbard of Swiftness
Scabbard of the Winds

So far, we have 114+ "normal" magic items, 3 cursed items, 1 intelligent item, 5 minor artifacts, & 1 major artifact (which is more like a dungeon that you can drive like a tank if you can make it to the end).

[Mercenary Pen]

The other scabbards will have to be very special just to keep up with the scabbard of the winds.

[afroakuma]

Well, since "sirocco" and "mistral" are types of wind... :smalltongue:

[Alteran]

The other scabbards will have to be very special just to keep up with the scabbard of the winds.

I think you're overrating it a bit. It requires a very particular setup, or terrain that your DM has given you to be as awesome/broken as you say. And minions, well, it's basically their job to die. This is definitely not the most efficient way to do it. Awesome, yes. Gamebreaking, no.

[Zeta Kai]

Awesome, yes. Gamebreaking, no.

That's a concise way of stating our most important design philosophy when it comes to crunch:


Awesome, yes. Gamebreaking, no.

[Lord_Gareth]

In the first thread I tried this angle. It leads to prying at the edges.

What I prefer now is to selectively exclude questions I don't want to answer from long lists. Most people have been willing to let them drop; Lord_Gareth being a distinct and annoying exception.

Any questions for me that are not related to my response style?

Yay I'm special!

Care to do a preview of a non-religious pally feat? Pweeeeese?

[afroakuma]

Yay I'm special!

Yes... yes you are. :smallconfused:


Care to do a preview of a non-religious pally feat? Pweeeeese?

Of a what? What would such a thing even look like?

[Lord_Gareth]

You just said there were feats available for Code paladins, ya punk! I would like to see one, if you'd be so kind.

[puppyavenger]

Well, as we've done pretty much every other creature type, Monstrous humanoid time! Hopefully natural enough to avoid having answers blocked due to cosmic spoilers

(apologies if any questions are completely and utterly obvious and stupid, my knowledge of Arabian mythology is pretty much limited to a few Egyptian fables and Aladdin.)

Are minotaurs going to be in the setting?

If so, are they going to actually be a fairly well-known threat/amusement/trading partner, mythical (as in, as well known and believed in as the actual Minotaur in ancient Greece), or an isolated and unknown thing DM's can just throw in if they want to?

If they have a defined role in the game, will they have any detailed culture/society?


Doppelgangers, are they around? common? The political make-up of the setting seems like it would be ideal for them.


Any grimlocks? not really sure there is any specific mythology behind these guys.

[Vadin]

Any grimlocks? not really sure there is any specific mythology behind these guys.

No mythology, just H.G.Well's The Time Machine.

[afroakuma]

You just said there were feats available for Code paladins, ya punk! I would like to see one, if you'd be so kind.

First of all, is that term actually extant in print? If so, please direct me to where.

Second of all, I said no such thing. I said that if they didn't want to expand their spellcasting, they could spend their feats elsewhere. I have no idea what a "non-religious" paladin feat would look like.


Are minotaurs going to be in the setting?

They won't be blocked.


If so, are they going to actually be a fairly well-known threat/amusement/trading partner, mythical (as in, as well known and believed in as the actual Minotaur in ancient Greece), or an isolated and unknown thing DM's can just throw in if they want to?

One of the latter.


Doppelgangers, are they around? common? The political make-up of the setting seems like it would be ideal for them.

Haven't been discussed. If I'd put them anywhere, it would be Najmah.


Any grimlocks? not really sure there is any specific mythology behind these guys.

Don't think so.

[Zeta Kai]

I said that if they didn't want to expand their spellcasting, they could spend their feats elsewhere. I have no idea what a "non-religious" paladin feat would look like.

It would look like a fighter feat, of which we have many. 21, to be exact.

[afroakuma]

It would look like a fighter feat, of which we have many.

We have non-fighter feats? :confused:

[Zeta Kai]

We have non-fighter feats? :confused:

Of the 123 feats that are complete (I am defending the gates against any more), 102 of them are not explicitly fighter feats. Although some of the others could be useful for fighter, I suppose.

[Lord_Gareth]

Potentially non-religious feats could improve on smiting, enhance detection of evil, provide alternate auras...

[afroakuma]

Potentially non-religious feats could improve on smiting, enhance detection of evil, provide alternate auras...

First, you owe me a "where did this Code paladin come from" answer.

Secondly, you're asking after something that the setting virtually does not support. In a deeply religious world where 8/10 aspects can have paladin servants, and each one has an explicit code of conduct for both clerics and paladins, why would we throw support at something that doesn't fit the mold?

Now, religious paladins get the Templar suite, Zealous Prayer, Zealous Faith... all good stuff. That last one actually customizes your paladin to suit your deity.

So, really, what exactly are you asking after? A link or page ref might be nice.

[Darkkwalker]

Seems to me like he dislikes the concept of religious paladins.

[afroakuma]

Seems to me like he dislikes the concept of religious paladins.

Which is fine, but this is a pretty religious setting.

[Zeta Kai]

Which is fine, but this is a pretty religious setting.

It's not really fine with me. They're PALADINS. They are so zealously dedicated to their patron god that they're immune to fear.

And yes, we could've gone the route of better smiting, different auras, et cetera. But that kinda stuff was handled in WotC published splats (Complete Champion, Complete Divine, et al). Our goal was to provide a bunch of really kick-ass options that also fit our setting well & gave the players something fun to do with their characters. Most of the feats that Gareth suggested aren't bad ideas, but they're just not what we were looking for.

[afroakuma]

Well, then I guess it's a good thing I can have a High Templar of Johoum or a Zealous Faithful of Adimas, then, isn't it?

[Lord_Gareth]

"Code" paladins are PHB default; that is to say, paladins don't require gods in core rules. Now, certain campaign settings say otherwise (Faerun springs to mind), but unless your campaign setting is one of them, a paladin's power is derived from the Code, with anything from their gods being a nifty side-benefit.

[Thane of Fife]

It's not really fine with me. They're PALADINS. They are so zealously dedicated to their patron god that they're immune to fear.


I disagree. They're so devoted to good that they're immune to fear. They may support the cause of good by supporting some good deity, but that isn't really the default assumption (well, it sort of is in 4e, I suppose). I think the analogy that I used earlier was a sort of comparison to artists:

Deities hire clerics to do their bidding.
Deities may patron paladins because they see them doing things they like.

More importantly, if paladins become people who are just super devoted to gods, then the differentiation between them and clerics disappears.

Now, afroakuma suggests that this all works differently in this setting (or, at least, that the idea of a paladin not having a patron is essentially unthinkable), and I'm fine with that. But you should at least acknowledge that such is a change/specification to the default fluff.

EDIT: Ninja'd

[afroakuma]

"Code" paladins are PHB default; that is to say, paladins don't require gods in core rules.

Neither do clerics. :smallconfused:


Now, certain campaign settings say otherwise (Faerun springs to mind), but unless your campaign setting is one of them, a paladin's power is derived from the Code, with anything from their gods being a nifty side-benefit.

Mmmmmno.

Given the foundations of Siraaj and Najmah, it's certainly plausible that a paladin can derive power from ambient goodness, but a paladin who follows this path will always be weaker than one who follows the precepts of a deity.

Which, let's be fair here, is really just a focused way of following a particular Code, since the gods in question don't actually exist. You'd essentially be taking lessons in how best to serve a Code to follow the exact lines of ambient paladin-ness.


I disagree. They're so devoted to good that they're immune to fear.

And law, let's not forget law.


They may support the cause of good by supporting some good deity, but that isn't really the default assumption (well, it sort of is in 4e, I suppose). I think the analogy that I used earlier was a sort of comparison to artists:

Deities hire clerics to do their bidding.
Deities may patron paladins because they see them doing things they like.

This is a world where the deities, by and large, don't exist; you may recall.


More importantly, if paladins become people who are just super devoted to gods, then the differentiation between them and clerics disappears.

Oh well. Maybe I should just discard the class altogether.


Now, afroakuma suggests that this all works differently in this setting (or, at least, that the idea of a paladin not having a patron is essentially unthinkable), and I'm fine with that. But you should at least acknowledge that such is a change/specification to the default fluff.

By no means did I state this. What I said was that many religions have paladins, and those paladins have powers that others do not. If you want to sail around on your own inner righteousness, then you can go ahead. I haven't impeded or hindered you in any way.

[afroakuma]

Questions? Comments? Concerns? Contestations?

[Thane of Fife]

And law, let's not forget law.

This is a world where the deities, by and large, don't exist; you may recall.

Oh well. Maybe I should just discard the class altogether.

By no means did I state this. What I said was that many religions have paladins, and those paladins have powers that others do not. If you want to sail around on your own inner righteousness, then you can go ahead. I haven't impeded or hindered you in any way.

I would, of course, never forget Law. I was merely checking your devotion. I will refrain from reporting you to the Modrons.

Didn't the feat Zeta just showed explicitly mention deities?

I don't really think that discarding paladins is necessary, it simply becomes important to find another way to make the distinction. In Ketemia, for example, I changed clerics to cloistered clerics so that paladins could represent one of the elite martial orders without stepping on toes.

And sorry about the last bit, I must have misread you.

[afroakuma]

Didn't the feat Zeta just showed explicitly mention deities?

It did, yes:


What I said was that many religions have paladins, and those paladins have powers that others do not.


I don't really think that discarding paladins is necessary,

Neither do I; I was being sarcastic.


it simply becomes important to find another way to make the distinction.

The distinction already exists.

[Lord_Gareth]

Your statements make sense, Afro. They just don't sit right with me >.<

Allow me to explain, 'cause this isn't just "Gareth likes atheist paladins". Personally, I love the idea that the Code - the paladin's honor, glory, and life - is held even above gods. I love the idea that a paladin is a champion of pure, undistilled righteousness. There have been numerous cases where I have either seen or played through high-profile defections from corrupt churches as a paladin, and these have been the source of some of the most satisfying roleplaying I've ever had the honor to experience.

By tying any additional power to gods - that is, by keeping the Code-based paladin as the gimped PHB version without access to those nifty feats of yours - you discourage that kind of roleplaying. Who's going to stand up to their church when they might lose the only things making them combat viable? Who's going to place the needs of the people above the needs of their gods then?

Logically speaking, a paladin devoted to a god should be more powerful. But it leaves a deeply wrong taste in my mouth.

[afroakuma]

Your statements make sense, Afro. They just don't sit right with me >.<

I anticipated that.


Allow me to explain, 'cause this isn't just "Gareth likes atheist paladins". Personally, I love the idea that the Code - the paladin's honor, glory, and life - is held even above gods. I love the idea that a paladin is a champion of pure, undistilled righteousness.

And it's very nice, yes, but it's not the only thing.

If you're playing a paladin of righteousness and all the other PHB good stuff, you probably don't worship a god. Paladins vary in what they represent and how they represent it. A paladin of Johoum is likely to be highly authoritarian and trust in force of arms. A paladin of Adimas is likely to be resourceful, tactical and collaborative.


There have been numerous cases where I have either seen or played through high-profile defections from corrupt churches as a paladin, and these have been the source of some of the most satisfying roleplaying I've ever had the honor to experience.

By tying any additional power to gods - that is, by keeping the Code-based paladin as the gimped PHB version without access to those nifty feats of yours

There are a grand total of five. One of which absolutely requires a patron because of what it does.


- you discourage that kind of roleplaying. Who's going to stand up to their church when they might lose the only things making them combat viable? Who's going to place the needs of the people above the needs of their gods then?

What a bizarre thing to say. If anything, we've only opened more doors. Suppose a paladin of Johoum finds out about the rampant corruption and outright evil within his church. If he stands against the church leaders, he'll still retain his powers. Is he in the right? But then, they still have Johoum's blessing as well. Could he be wrong? Should he stay true to his faith, having seen the uncaring truth of the harsh sun god?

These feats and concepts do not operate on absolutes of canon law. The gods in question do not exist, after all. Praying to Johoum at night? Bad paladin. Killing an evil high priest of Johoum? Hey, look, you kept your nifty abilities.

What we encourage is sectarian exploration, branching elements within the churches and the understanding that even a god of evil, such as Johoum, or a god of chaos, such as Adimas, can be represented by paragons who try to exalt the best virtue of their patron.


Logically speaking, a paladin devoted to a god should be more powerful. But it leaves a deeply wrong taste in my mouth.

Again, it depends on what you're calling "power." Paladins with a patron deity have more divine power, sure. I would personally call it superior. Paladins without, however, have extra feat slots to spend powering themselves up in different ways. There's no worrying about grabbing Veneration, Zealous Prayer, Zealous Faith, Templar, Proven Templar, High Templar and oh crap, that's my feats. Instead it's Grim Determination, Base Vasrah, Finisher, Sweep and hey look I still have more room.

What I'm telling you is quite simply: you can play a paladin sans patron, but if you do, don't expect the same privileges, because it's nonsensical. If you play a paladin who eschews the divine, then you eschew the divine. You develop your character in other ways, probably shoring up your personal power to compensate.

[Lord_Gareth]

Alrighty - see, that makes more sense now.

WILL we be seeing anything to go with Smite Evil? I've had an idea bouncing around for some time for a (feat? Weapon ability?) that dispells protections from beings you smite...

[afroakuma]

I should also point out that the cool new paladin spells are not restricted by patron deity.

Anyone have anymore questions for me?

[Lord_Gareth]

Where do paladins stand in church heirarchies, in relation to clerics?

[afroakuma]

Where do paladins stand in church heirarchies, in relation to clerics?

It depends on which church and which sect thereof.

In the church of Qirus, they're pretty darn elite. In the church of Sidaru, top paladins are often above most clerics. In the church of Johoum, usually middle management. They rule the church of Akasha because the clerics have another job to do. Paladins are extremely rare in the church of Daq, and neither Waharim nor Maqur of the ten Aspects have paladins at all.

[Lord_Gareth]

...Now I'd like more information on the church of Akasha. Why are the clerics so preoccupied? What's Akasha the god(dess?) of? Why does (s)he have paladins?

[afroakuma]

...Now I'd like more information on the church of Akasha. Why are the clerics so preoccupied? What's Akasha the god(dess?) of? Why does (s)he have paladins?

Akasha is the goddess of the feminine, of light, hope and all that wonderful stuff.

Her clerics, who bear staves of sacred yew, are busy dealing with their most sacred obligation. She has paladins to serve as the champions of her ley followers.

[Mercenary Pen]

Akasha is the goddess of the feminine, of light, hope and all that wonderful stuff.

Her clerics, who bear staves of sacred yew, are busy dealing with their most sacred obligation. She has paladins to serve as the champions of her ley followers.

So, with the Yew staves, does that mean Akasha is on one side of the whole
"Never strike a staff of yew
Against a staff of elder blue"
thing?

[Zeta Kai]

So, with the Yew staves, does that mean Akasha is on one side of the whole
"Never strike a staff of yew
Against a staff of elder blue"
thing?

My, you're a perceptive one. Now you'll have to find out who holds "a staff of elder blue", & make sure that they never meet.

[Mercenary Pen]

I vaguely remembered it from a lore post, and then trawled back about 12 pages or so for the details.

[afroakuma]

Didn't page 38 mention someone with blue elder staves? :smallconfused:

[Mercenary Pen]

Yes it did, but I didn't notice it at the time, because I was too busy looking for yew staves at the time.

Does this mean that there is a massive rivalry/dispute/war between the followers of Akasha and Sunya, or that they shouldn't be allowed to unite, because the wording could go either way, I think?

[afroakuma]

Yes it did, but I didn't notice it at the time, because I was too busy looking for yew staves at the time.

Does this mean that there is a massive rivalry/dispute/war between the followers of Akasha and Sunya, or that they shouldn't be allowed to unite, because the wording could go either way, I think?

Horribly intriguing, isn't it?

[puppyavenger]

what about paladins of The non-existent god? Umraj or something was his name I think.

[afroakuma]

what about paladins of The non-existent god? Umraj or something was his name I think.

You know, come to think of it, I'd imagine that Umaj would not have paladins either.

[Mercenary Pen]

Horribly intriguing, isn't it?

I know, I know, if you told me any more you'd have to kill me and shatter my soul into a billion pieces, simply because I know too much already...

Don't worry, I can take not knowing until the release (or until you put out the next piece of the overall puzzle)...

[Zeta Kai]

It's nice to have so much content stockpiled that we can leak out teasers to string along intrigue our audience long enough to write the rest of it. :smallbiggrin:

[Lord_Gareth]

What is their "most sacred obligation" Sewing? How is feminimity even defined onthis world?!?!?

[afroakuma]

What is their "most sacred obligation" Sewing?

Uh... no. Really very no. So incredibly no.


How is feminimity even defined onthis world?!?!?

Depends where you are.

Further questionage?

[puppyavenger]

Depends where you are.



what if you were a cleric of Akasha?

[afroakuma]

what if you were a cleric of Akasha?

Still depends on where you are.

[Alteran]

Let's say you're in Alaqur.

[afroakuma]

Let's say you're in Alaqur.

Let's say that I'm not going to answer this or any related questions.

Moving on. Also I can't locate my map, which is why I can't answer. :P

[Lord_Gareth]

Oooh!

What are the major church rivalries?

[afroakuma]

Oooh!

What are the major church rivalries?

Please to explain betters?

[Lord_Gareth]

Well, for example, on Faerun Tyr hates Talos, and Talos has beefs with nature gods, and the nature gods have issues with Velsharoon, et cetera et cetera.

So, which churches really hate which other churches?

[afroakuma]

Well, for example, on Faerun Tyr hates Talos, and Talos has beefs with nature gods, and the nature gods have issues with Velsharoon, et cetera et cetera.

So, which churches really hate which other churches?

{table=head]Church|Church|Grievance
Pashati|Sidaru|(Lizardfolk nations) Ideological conflict
Maqur|Martuakh|Usurpation of former power base
Akasha|Sunya|Natural opposition/inherited battle for dominion
Johoum|Qirus|Conflicting authoritarianism
Pashati|Qirus|Worshipers lapsing in border areas
Johoum|Limalia|Holy war
Adimas|Johoum|Natural opposition/heretical
Daq|Johoum|Territorial/heretical
Adimas|Waharim|Natural opposition
Nathar|Qirus|Holy war
Martuakh|Nathar|Territorial
Maqur|Limalia|Heretical
Maqur|Qirus|Heretical
Maqur|Sidaru|Heretical[/table]

Heretical: One ideology viewed as subversive, corrupting and dangerous within the territory of another.
Holy war: Two ideologies war for territory/supremacy.
Ideological conflict: Two neighboring ideologies vie for supremacy.
Natural opposition: Two ideologies that are opposed by mere definition.
Territorial: One ideology within the territory of a larger.

Comprehensive enough?

[puppyavenger]

So nobody hates Umaj?

I have no idea why, since I know nothing about it, but for some reason I like Umaj

[afroakuma]

So nobody hates Umaj?

Seeing as how Umaj never historically existed, is chaotic neutral, and has no formal church but rather a diffuse power base of worship, no. There's no formal church vs. church strife there.

[Juhn]

So, are all those described relationships two-way? I see no mention of "Church from column A feels the described way about Church from column B" or vice versa.

Also, I find myself doubly glad that I didn't vote for Umaj for the aspect teaser (not that my option won anyway). Not only is he apparently a dog, but he's also a dog that never existed.

Well, that's what I get for choosing aspects based on the most interesting/amusing phonetics.

[afroakuma]

So, are all those described relationships two-way? I see no mention of "Church from column A feels the described way about Church from column B" or vice versa.

They were listed alphabetically. I suppose I could have designated an aggressor, but in most cases it's easy to guess.


Also, I find myself doubly glad that I didn't vote for Umaj for the aspect teaser (not that my option won anyway). Not only is he apparently a dog, but he's also a dog that never existed.

She. And... dog?

[Zeta Kai]

Also, I find myself doubly glad that I didn't vote for Umaj for the aspect teaser (not that my option won anyway). Not only is he apparently a dog, but he's also a dog that never existed.

Well, she wasn't a real creature, so you can call her whatever you want. Just don't call her that to the faces of her followers. They believe in the Khatun of Beasts quite fiercely, & suffer no impugning of her name.

[Lord_Gareth]

{table=head]Church|Church|Grievance
Pashati|Sidaru|(Lizardfolk nations) Ideological conflict
Maqur|Martuakh|Usurpation of former power base
Akasha|Sunya|Natural opposition/inherited battle for dominion
Johoum|Qirus|Conflicting authoritarianism
Pashati|Qirus|Worshipers lapsing in border areas
Johoum|Limalia|Holy war
Adimas|Johoum|Natural opposition/heretical
Daq|Johoum|Territorial/heretical
Adimas|Waharim|Natural opposition
Nathar|Qirus|Holy war
Martuakh|Nathar|Territorial
Maqur|Limalia|Heretical
Maqur|Qirus|Heretical
Maqur|Sidaru|Heretical[/table]

Heretical: One ideology viewed as subversive, corrupting and dangerous within the territory of another.
Holy war: Two ideologies war for territory/supremacy.
Ideological conflict: Two neighboring ideologies vie for supremacy.
Natural opposition: Two ideologies that are opposed by mere definition.
Territorial: One ideology within the territory of a larger.

Comprehensive enough?

...Yes, yes it is. This is more comprehensive than WotC's tables. You, sir, have Won, with a Capital W.

[afroakuma]

...Yes, yes it is. This is more comprehensive than WotC's tables. You, sir, have Won, with a Capital W.

Any further questions?

[Lord_Gareth]

Would the design team be willing to give advice/ideas on adapting homebrew races/classes to the setting if we were willing to link/post said races/classes?

[afroakuma]

Would the design team be willing to give advice/ideas on adapting homebrew races/classes to the setting if we were willing to link/post said races/classes?

Harrowed again? :smallannoyed:

I'll give a tentative "yes" provided it proceeds on a limited basis.

[Juhn]

She. And... dog?

Well, I referred to Umaj as a he before, and it went uncorrected, so I figured I had the correct gender.

As for dog, I seem to have come to that conclusion due to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5723395&postcount=225) and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5723471&postcount=226).

[Vadin]

Juhn, that's a cat. (he says hopefully)

[Athaniar]

As for dog, I seem to have come to that conclusion due to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5723395&postcount=225) and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5723471&postcount=226).

Obviously you've never had any experience with dogs or cats.

[Juhn]

I've had some two decades of experience with cats, though I will admit that my personal experience with dogs is somewhat lacking in comparison.

[afroakuma]

Enough with the cats and dogs.

Any questions pertaining to anything?

[Shadow_Elf]

Afro and Zeta, I have a request to make back at HQ. I would appreciate it if you gave it a look. Thanks.

And yes, I could have PM'd you, but teasing the audience with the mysterious goings-on at the HQ was all too tempting. :smallamused:

[Mercenary Pen]

Takes Ongoing 10 Mysterious damage (save ends)

Shadow will understand.

[lesser_minion]

Takes Ongoing 10 Mysterious damage (save ends)

Shadow will understand.

Spontaneous 4e jokes ftw.

I have Resist 15 Mysterious when statted up in 4e, so I didn't have a problem.

Here's the start of statting afro up as a 4e character, as long as he is prepared to suffer this:

Bold Italicised Underlined and Awesome
Afroakuma Encounter 1 | Awesome, Radiant, Psychic
Free Action | Ranged 2.05712017e16
Special: You do not need line of effect to a target.
Attack: Charisma vs. Fortitude
Hit: Target suffers 9,192,631,770 points of radiant and psychic damage.
Miss: Target suffers 299,792,458 points of radiant damage.


No.
Afroakuma At-Will 1 | Awesome, Radiant
Free Action | Ranged 2.05712017e16
Special: You do not need line of effect to a target.
Attack: Charisma + Target's Will Defense vs. Will
Hit: Target is thoroughly chastised (save ends). The thoroughly chastised condition prevents a creature from attacking or making stupid suggestions.
Miss: Target is thoroughly chastised until the end of its next turn.

Decapitate
Afroakuma At-Will 1 | Awesome, Radiant, Weapon
Minor Action | Ranged 2.05712017e16
Special: You do not need line of sight or line of effect.
Attack: Charisma vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] damage and target is dead (save ends)*


It's a while since I've played 4e, so these may be horrible. I'm not statting him up as a 4e monster, because I do not consider 4e monsters to be a shining example of how one should write antagonists for one's roleplaying game.

* To my knowledge, afroakuma has not permanently decapitated anyone. Yet.

[Shadow_Elf]

I took the Forumslayer Epic Destiny. I reduce your Resist 15 Mysteriousness to Vulnerable 27.5 Mysteriousness, and then stun you (save ends). Aftereffect: Stunned (save ends). Aftereffect: Stunned (save ends). all saving throws against this effect take a -10 penalty, and must be rolled twice, taking the lower result. :smallbiggrin:

Now that that's done, any questions about 4e-related stuff?

[lesser_minion]

I'm not sure if this has been asked before, but how did you get the setting to work with two different sets of mechanics? Did you just make the rules in such a way that the setting is independent of the game system, or did you tie some thematic elements to the mechanics and come up with a new explanation for why they work differently in different editions?

[Shadow_Elf]

I'm not sure if this has been asked before, but how did you get the setting to work with two different sets of mechanics? Did you just make the rules in such a way that the setting is independent of the game system, or did you tie some thematic elements to the mechanics and come up with a new explanation for why they work differently in different editions?

I'm not sure if I understand the question. We came up with the fluff as a group. Zeta worked on monsters, and, as he finished them, I (with a small group of contract homebrewers) began converting the ones that weren't already in 4e. As items were made, I converted those, and they converted some ones that I made (such as the Scabbard of the Winds). When it came to feats, they got a head start, but I converted as many as I could (and I am still in the process of converting many of them). However, most of the 4e feats are original.
There are obviously some differences. The Djinn Lord of 3.5e and 4e are different in fluff, though rather similar in crunch (as similar as the two editions get, really). I have a handful of artifacts they did not make - likewise, there are 3.5e artifacts and unique/intelligent items that will not make an appearance in 4e.

So I'm not sure what you asked. The mechanics are for both editions, but they aren't the same mechanics - we didn't make one thing that worked in both, instead we made two things, one for each, that had the same basis. Making universal mechanics would have been harder than making an entirely new d20 system, which we never planned to do.

[Juhn]

Now I find myself curious as to this "Djinn Lord differs in fluff" business.

[afroakuma]

Now I find myself curious as to this "Djinn Lord differs in fluff" business.

I don't follow. :smallconfused:

[Juhn]

The Djinn Lord of 3.5e and 4e are different in fluff, though rather similar in crunch (as similar as the two editions get, really).

This part right here.

[afroakuma]

And what are you curious about, pray tell?

[Mercenary Pen]

Why do I get the feeling AA will be 'having words' with Shadow Elf about that particular piece of info?

Anyhow, almost time for a new thread... I collated all the lore posts for going at the start of the new thread last time, must therefore be somebody else's turn this time:smallwink:


And what are you curious about, pray tell?

How the two versions of the djinn lord differ in fluff[/stating the blatantly obvious]

[afroakuma]

Why do I get the feeling AA will be 'having words' with Shadow Elf about that particular piece of info?

No, no, no. Canadian solidarity, and all that.


How the two versions of the djinn lord differ in fluff[/stating the blatantly obvious]

See? That's what one needs to ask.

They are forced to differ in fluff thanks to a particular deficiency in 4E's rules.

[Alteran]

They are forced to differ in fluff thanks to a particular deficiency in 4E's rules.

The lack of a Wish spell?

[afroakuma]

The lack of a Wish spell?

That would be the one.

[lesser_minion]

What I meant to ask was whether or not your fluff takes into account the differences between the two editions (sort of a more subtle, less "horrifying" version of the 4e FR remake).

From your answer, I'm guessing not.

[afroakuma]

What I meant to ask was whether or not your fluff takes into account the differences between the two editions (sort of a more subtle, less "horrifying" version of the 4e FR remake).

From your answer, I'm guessing not.

You mean, is one a time-lapsed or alternate universe version of the other?

No.

[lesser_minion]

You mean, is one a time-lapsed or alternate universe version of the other?

No.

With any luck, only the FR remake will see that kind of nightmare, and then only because huge chunks of the old setting had to be altered to accomodate the new mechanics.

I was wondering if you had considered toying with the idea instead of going straight in and adapting the same world to two different games.

[afroakuma]

I was wondering if you had considered toying with the idea instead of going straight in and adapting the same world to two different games.

We did. In fact, that's what we're doing. Fluff-wise, some shared terminology refers to different things. Fluff-wise, 4E breaks a few rules that 3.X might play a bit closer to the chest. However, in the fundamentals, it's the same world.

[Mercenary Pen]

I was wondering if you had considered toying with the idea instead of going straight in and adapting the same world to two different games.

Correction, I believe it's now three different games, considering it's also been headhunted for 3.Fax/d20r/any other designation that particular system may have already...

[lesser_minion]

Essentially, they are catering to two different games - D&D 'Classic', and D&D 'Reincarnate', which may as well be the 1st edition of a completely new game (which isn't a problem, as I like quite a bit of 4e).

It seems simpler to just drop all the CD&D remakes - OSRIC, Pathfinder, d20r, Swords & Wizardry - under the heading of 'Classic' D&D.

I guess you could argue that they are hardly catering to every iteration of CD&D though. Unless someone suddenly develops an irresistible urge to convert all of this for OSRIC and Swords & Wizardry.

[Zeta Kai]

I guess you could argue that they are hardly catering to every iteration of CD&D though. Unless someone suddenly develops an irresistible urge to convert all of this for OSRIC and Swords & Wizardry.

No, but thank you. Two-&-a-half editions is enough for us. :smallwink:

[Alteran]

:smalleek:

Another discussion thread that's reached 50 pages, wow. Somebody will have to make a new one now. It's hard to believe that discussion of HoZ has now reached 150 pages, and that's not including any of the discussion between the build team members. You three have certainly generated a lot of interest for this. Especially Afro. He seems to be the "face" of HoZ. For better or for worse. ;)

Edit: I just checked now, and we have a total of 4462 posts over the three HoZ threads.

[Shadow_Elf]

I accidentally the discussion thread...
...is this bad?

[Zeta Kai]

I accidentally the discussion thread...
...is this bad?

Someone get that man a verb! :smallbiggrin:

[Juhn]

How the two versions of the djinn lord differ in fluffSee? That's what one needs to ask.

I thought it was implied. Apparently I wasn't the only one, if this:

[/stating the blatantly obvious] is anything to go by.

[Alteran]

Someone get that man a verb! :smallbiggrin:

Lesse here...

I got yer "eat"s, yer "run"s, yer "have"s...ooh, and I got me something special, just for you. Lookit this, an "exfoliate". Just got that in this morning. Piece o' work, she is. That one will cost you extra, but it comes with my heartiest recommendations. Also, I almost fergot to mention, but any change in tense adds another 25%. Infinitive is 30%. Sorry, but them's the breaks.

So, my friend, what'll it be? :smallbiggrin:

[afroakuma]

:smalleek:

Another discussion thread that's reached 50 pages, wow. Somebody will have to make a new one now.

Done. :smallwink:


It's hard to believe that discussion of HoZ has now reached 150 pages, and that's not including any of the discussion between the build team members. You three have certainly generated a lot of interest for this. Especially Afro. He seems to be the "face" of HoZ. For better or for worse. ;)

I think I'm officially credited on this project as "PR Scapegoat" or "Flogging Monkey" or somesuch.

[Zeta Kai]

I think I'm officially credited on this project as "PR Scapegoat" or "Flogging Monkey" or somesuch.

Oh, admit it. You love the abuse. :smallbiggrin: Thanks again for taking the grief so we can work in relative peace.

[Roland St. Jude]

Done. :smallwink:

+1 for starting the new thread.
-1 for not providing a link to it.

Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread has reached the 50 page limit and is being locked. Please check out the new version at here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114138).