Fantasy Must-Reads - Some Help?

[RTGoodman]

As the title implies, I'm looking for a definitive list of of must-read novels/authors in the Fantasy genre. I know there are a lot of books that are good, but as sort of personal project I'm looking for the examples that are the most influential, famous, or otherwise important.

I'll list what I've read, what I've got but haven't read yet, and what I don't have at all, and after that I'd hope you fine folks could provide some others for me to look into. I also know there's some stuff that blurs genre lines or is of a different genre but still influenced fantasy (Lovecraft, for instance), but I'm trying to avoid that if possible. (One man can only read so much, unfortunately, and even if I could I can only AFFORD so much...)


Read:
-Tolkien: I've read almost all of his Middle Earth stuff (including The Hobbit probably more than a dozen times and Lord of the Rings several times). I think I'm good here.

-C.S. Lewis: The other big fantasy series people talk about, The Chronicles of Narnia, I've got covered.

-E.R. Burroughs: I've read the first two Tarzan books, so I think I'm good.

-Michael Moorcock: I've read one compilation of Elric stories, and I'm working on the other two.

-Stephen Donaldson: I don't hear much about it from readers, but the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever are mentioned by scholars a LOT. (Or, at least, it seems that way to me.) I've read the first two, need to finish the third.

-Ursula LeGuin: I've read A Wizard of Earthsea and have the next two, but haven't read them yet.

-Brian Jacques: Redwall is mentioned a LOT by people, and I just finished the first book. I may look into the rest of the series, but that's a LOT of books.

-Weis & Hickman: The Dragonlance Chronicles books (and the sequels) might be looked down on by "serious" scholars, but unless I'm mistaken they're some of the most well-known popular fantasy and (I think) probably the first D&D related novels (setting the stage for a whole slew of Dragonlance, FR, and Eberron novels).

-T.H. White: The Once and Future King is sort of Fantasy, sort of political treatise, but it's the most famous modern Arthurian tale I can think of, so it goes on the list.

-Neil Gaiman: He's probably one of the most famous of modern fantasy authors, and I've read almost all of his stuff (i.e., everything but his childrens' stories and Good Omens).

-J.K. Rowling: Much as I hate to say it, Harry Potter did put Fantasy in the mainstream, and I did read all seven books.


Owned, but Not Read:
-The stuff mentioned above as not being finished (the rest of the Elric stories, the last Thomas Covenant, etc.).

-George R.R. Martin: People seem split on him - half think he's great, half hate him. I can't get through the first three chapters for the first book of ASoIaF, but I may try again.

-Lloyd Alexander: The Chronicles of Prydain aren't that famous, but as a Celticist I feel like I should read them anyway (especially since I got several of them for $1 at a book sale and they've been on my shelf for two years by now).

-The rest of Stephen King's Dark Tower series. (Yeah, I consider it fantasy more than anything else). I've read the first 3 1/2 or 4 books, though.


Missing:
-Robert Howard: I don't have any Conan-related books, to my shame. Well, I bought one but someone borrowed it and never returned it before I ever opened it. I mean to correct this at some point.

-Jack Vance: The Dying Earth series was REALLY influential in regards to D&D, so for that reason at least I'd like to check it out.

-Fritz Leiber: I hear about the Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories all the time, but I've never even seen a physical copy of a Leiber book, I don't think.

-Terry Pratchett: I don't know a thing about Pratchett or Discworld (is his stuff even Fantasy, or Sci-Fi, or what?), and I don't even know where to start.

-E.R. Eddison: My modern fantasy professor back in college used to talk about The Worm Ouroboros all the time, so I figure I should read it. I haven't ordered it, though.



That's certainly not everything I've read, but I think those are probably the most influential/important fantasy works I can think of. Anyone else go any ideas on things that should definitely be on the list?

[Dervag]

Early to middle David Eddings. I've heard bad stuff about his recent work, but his earlier work is a good read (and is now available in omnibus trade paperback volumes).

Eddings uses a lot of cliches, but he can make them work, because he is (was?) a good enough writer to make convincing characters even when those characters can accurately be described by a stereotype like "farmboy who comes of age and discovers his secret past." Also, he's good at writing what might be called "realistic fantasy." The characters may be wizards or knights on a quest to recover the Holy Relic, but they face a lot of the same kinds of problems that real people would have to deal with. They don't wildly charge into fights with enemies that outnumber them, they have to worry about the logistics of travelling from one place to another, and so on. A lot of that gets glossed over in 'higher' fantasy.
_____

If you're interested in the roots of the genre, look at "The Broken Sword," by Poul Anderson. Anderson was writing early enough that instead of deriving most of his tropes and themes from existing fantasy, he took them straight out of Norse mythology. The characters and plot are on the grim side, but it has a very authentic feel to it.
_____

I can't recommend the works of Terry Pratchett strongly enough. Pratchett is hilarious, and he has a lot of insight into human nature. The Discworld novels, which are what I'm most familiar with, are great reading.

[Raistlin1040]

If I'm not mistaken (and I very well could be, as I don't read it myself), Discworld is basically a bunch of books about the world, but it's not ONE series. I'm told you can start from pretty much anywhere and be fine.

Again, I don't read his stuff, but allegedly Robert Jordan is supposed to be famous and/or good. *Shrugs*

There are some more good books/series' I'd recommend, but those are the only things I have to add if you're looking for famous, influential "must-reads".

[Dervag]

Jordan is... a debatable case. It's not that he couldn't write. But his most famous work was the Wheel of Time series, which ran to several thousand pages. It had a badly meandering plot, with a cast of characters so large it was very difficult to keep track of what was going on. If you put down the book and picked up the next one a month later, you'd pretty much need a refresher course just to remember who the heck everyone was and why they were doing what they were doing.

It was just too much, in terms of volume. And that hurt its reception, even though it sold well and had a lot of cool, interesting features.

[RTGoodman]

Early to middle David Eddings.
_____

"The Broken Sword," by Poul Anderson.

I recognize the names of Eddings and Anderson, but I don't know much about them. I'll definitely look into Anderson, especially as early as he is, and I'll probably research Eddings more online to find what I should read by him if I do. I like the sound of it, though - from your description it reminds me of the kind of fantasy in Hambly's Dragonsbane, which I like a lot.


I'm told you can start from pretty much anywhere and be fine.

Again, I don't read his stuff, but allegedly Robert Jordan is supposed to be famous and/or good. *Shrugs*

Eh, I've read the first four or so books of the Wheel of Time, and I'm just not that impressed. I don't really see much that stands out besides just how freakin' LONG it is. Someone can feel free to correct me, but at least in what I read there's nothing that really revolutionized the genre or anything. Anyone can feel free to correct me, but I don't think it'll change my mind about not liking the series.

Good to know about Discworld, though. I may just pick one up next time I'm at the used book store and just dive in headfirst.

EDIT: Semi-ninja'd by Dervag on the Robert Jordan "meh."

[Raistlin1040]

I suggest you ask Curly for reference, since really, I know next to nothing about Discworld, and I could be very wrong.

Oh, and Lewis Carroll, if you consider him fantasy.

[Rutskarn]

You haven't read Pratchett.

You need to fix that.

Pratchett is fantasy. It's hilarious, and the characters are excellent, but the plots and satire are both extremely competent.

Read Good Omens first, you won't need to know anything about the world for that one. Then read Guards, Guards! because that develops the city where most modern Discworld takes place.

Then start reading them all in whatever order you choose.

[Innis Cabal]

I found that the Wheel of Time really started to decline as it wen't further and further into the series, Rand swiftly going into a Mary Sue (They even have a word for this in the series but the name escapes me-needless to say that a good many of the main characters are these "rare" people), and the supporting cast becoming trite, re-enforcing the Sueish qualities of a badly written main character, or any good qualities swiftly becoming over shadowed by the more powerful characters and being pushed to the way side.

The early books were well written, and truly captured a mid fantasy feel. Sadly that whole surface is blown to pieces by the third or fourth book, and by the tenth the almost creative way for the main characters seem to think of to avoid or get out of trouble just in the nick of time has grown stale. It is to a point that one simply has to sit back and wait out the tired and sluggish manner the enemies and villians of the story execute their plans, because you know in one or two chapters not only will the masterful plan they have detailed will fall apart, but that it will do so in such a way that it should be utterly humiliating and degrading to a well written villain.

Thankfully the entire story lacks any of these, the vast majority being Evil for Evil's sake, and the others falling into the catagory of Lacky with a Grudge. Both of which were not creative when they were first introduced into the story let alone before hand. The entire cast of villians and monsters do not fall under a "Where have I seen this before" cliche, but more of a "where have I not seen this before". The monsters are all rather cliche and dull, being evil because thats just how they are, and serve evil creatures that dress in black and lack eyes, or are otherwise deformed or twisted. To add insult to injury there is even a long and drawn out plotline involving a "Dark Evil" that stands outside the actual villians of the story, and of course as a "Dark and Shadowy Creature" has its own goals which of course end up being to plunge the world into shadow so it can control every being.

More on the main characters. The main three male leads all at one point go through a "trial" and it is understandable for such a high fantasy that they are thrust into by the 5th book that had they not their character growth (or lack there of-more further down) would be suspect. The main character is the definition of a Mary Sue, being not only the saviour of the world, but even gets an old mentor (more then one actually) and is well regarded as "The hottest thing since the sun", and gets not one love interest but a literal harem of magic wielding possesive females who all seem to get along because they just love the main character so much. This might be able to be over looked if any of the ladies in the harem of the main lead had any actual depth to their character beyond what is written here. Many have no positive traits, existing only to foil the others by misdeeds and childish and harmful acts.

The other two are swiftly pulled out of the lime light, their good features swiftly becoming a joke, while their negative and petty desires are given more and more time to blossom, and the only thing that marks them as hero's is that the author more or less tells us they will eventually come back to the right path.

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

I personally, would add the Recluce Saga by L.E. Modesitt Jr. to the list. I feel he's a better writer than Jordan, and the series is often forgotten, but it quite good. The main criticism is that he recycles the story (several revolve around a young mage learning to use magic). But Modesitt usually introduces a new aspect to his magic system or a new location in the world when he does so. It's easily my favorite series too.

[The Boyce]

Anne Mcaffree's Dragonriders of Pern could be considered fantasy since it's dragons though there are sci-fi elements. I'd say there can be no argument that she's had an influence.

As much as some will hate on him R. A. Salvatore's Drizzt series were very influential in that every drow now comes equipped with twin scimitars.

[The_Snark]

I personally like Jordan, but his writing has a number of flaws that put a lot of people off, and if you're looking to conserve time he's not a good choice.

Terry Pratchett is golden. There's plenty of places where you can find the chronological order to read them in... or you can just pick one at random off a bookshelf (most large bookstores seem to carry some of his books), or you can start with something people recommend to you, like Small Gods.

Fritz Leiber is quite good, if you can find him; it's remarkably hard nowadays.

If you're looking for older, influential fantasy, George MacDonald wrote before C. S. Lewis and Tolkien, and inspired both. Conveniently, his books are in the public domain and available online: Lilith (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/macdonald/lilith/Lilith.html) and Phantastes (http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/MacPhan.html) are probably his best.

Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, by Susannah Clarke, is an interesting recent book; I've heard it described as what Jane Austen might have written, had she written fantasy.

And... oh yes, I always enjoyed the Tolkien short story Leaf, by Niggle. His most autobiographical work, I feel.

[RTGoodman]

Anne Mcaffree's Dragonriders of Pern could be considered fantasy since it's dragons though there are sci-fi elements. I'd say there can be no argument that she's had an influence.

As much as some will hate on him R. A. Salvatore's Drizzt series were very influential in that every drow now comes equipped with twin scimitars.

You know, I was thinking about McCaffrey earlier but didn't mention it here since I don't know anything about it. The Pern stuff, as far as I can tell without having actually ever read any of it or anything about it, at least seems pretty popular and there are certainly enough of them, so they may be something I look into. I'd probably stick with the original stuff, though, since, at least according to Wikipedia, the later stuff is more sci-fi than fantasy.

As far as Salvatore, I've already ready half of the Drizzt books and some of the Cleric Quintet. I agree he's had an impact on D&D and D&D-related fantasy, but in the broader scope I don't know how influential he's been.

EDIT: Ah, you sneaky Snark! I've got Jonathan Strange but haven't read much into it - I unfortunately started it right around term paper time my last semester at college and never got back to it. I'll look into MacDonald, though (and the name rings a bell).

[Innis Cabal]

I would suggest Katherine_Kurtz and her Deryni series, a very intersting fantasy series. Sadly I haven't had a chance to read any of her others works, but that series was worth it.

[KnightDisciple]

I'll throw out a couple.

David Weber's War God series. Pretty classic fantasy, though a couple of interesting twists. One nice one is that half-elves are jerks. And halflings are horned sailors! *Insert obvious jokes here* The central character is basically a reluctant paladin. I love the series.
Stephen Lawhead. He's got a couple. I've read the Arthur series he did. 5 (well, 6, but the 6th isn't nearly as good, and isn't really part of the series, not in the same way) books, starting from Taliesin, going to Merlin, then Arthur as the story focus. He's got a whole book for the Grail quests. And it's actually a pretty realistic setting. He sets is back in the...somewhere between 400 and 600, I think. So no shiny plate armor. Relatively little magic, and what magic there is is either basically divine intervention, or dark powers. I will warn that he has a Christian bent/perspective, but I don't think it harms the narrative (but I'm biased).
Weber also has a new series, the Safehold series, that's...hard to pin down. It's some weird combo of sci-fi bits, with a mostly historical/fantasy type story. Essentially, the sci-fi bits are generally worked in as the fantasy elements. It's a bit strange, but very good.

[factotum]

You mention three Thomas Covenant books--there are actually six; there was a second trilogy released after the first one. Definitely worth a read if you liked the first trilogy.

"The Worm Ouroborous" I found quite irritating, especially the way it ended, but I won't spoil it for you by explaining why.

I don't think anyone has mentioned Guy Gavriel Kay's work yet. He actually helped Christopher Tolkien out preparing the Silmarillion for publication, so he's linked back to the master himself indirectly. The Fionavar Tapestry I didn't think was that brilliant--it was TOO derivative of Tolkien--but his more recent stuff is awesome in its own right, especially "Tigana".

[Moonshadow]

Raymond E Feist is stonking good in my opinion.

If you don't mind a bit of rompy adult stuff, try the Kushiel's series by Jaqueline Carey. Its a series about a girl who basically grows up to be a prostitute, but also a spy. It may sound weird, but it warrents reading.

[Satyr]

While it is more a "girl book" than a fantasy novel, Marion Zimmer Bradley's Mists of Avalon are one of the more influential books. And despite its rather obvious agenda, the book is even quite good.

And while I think that it would be more appropriate to print the books on toilet paper to express the value of the content, Paolini's Eragon trilogy was also extremely succesful.

And you should definately read Martin, as he is one of the most exceeptional contemporary fantasy writers - he is one of the very few who does not only wirte fantasy but is also a good author, a trait of remarkable sparsity among fantasy authors.

With a less tight focus, you should also take a look on Michael Ende's Momo and the Neverending Story. Not really classical fantasy, but truly great books.

And then there are the very basics, such as Homer, Nibelungen, Edda, Gilgamesh, etc. Those aren't just fantasy must-reads, those are very general must-reads for everyone.

[Oregano]

Look out for the complete Conan anthology or somesuch, my brother has it, it's basically a big black book that contains all the Howard written Conan stories. My brother highly rates it.

[toasty]

Eragon is heresy. I will say nothing less. (yes... Brisgnr is in my house and I will eventually read it... but I would never pay for such a thing).

Steven Erikson. In the words of my friend: Robert Jordan, only MUCH better.

Pratchett is amazing.

[afroakuma]

Here's one not yet mentioned: Tad Williams

Otherland is science fiction, but the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy were very good and straight fantasy. War of the Flowers was a really enjoyable read as well.

[Almn]

Dragonlance isn't good Weiss and Hickman though, the Deathgate cycle is one of the best fantasy novels out there.
Early Jordan is good, but it degenerates. Marion Zimmer Bradley also has the darkover verse, which is bad in the beginning and gets much better.
Magician by...Can't remember his name is also very good.
TVtropes may ruin your life, but it also is a great way to find books.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

One that hasnt been mentioned is Paul Kidd's "Justicar and Escalla" books. There were three books written as part of the Greyhawk series, most of the others were rather boring, but the ones he wrote for the series were funny, clever and enjoyable.

The entire series was based on some of the earliest D&D modules from back in the late 1970's/early 1980's. The three Kidd wrote were:

White Plume Mountian
Decent into the Depth of the Earth
Queen of the Demonweb Pits

Quick, light reads. Kind of like going to see an Adam Sandler movie. They won't change your life, but you will have a good time.

Also, I can't recomment Terry Pratchett's Discworld enough! Start anywhere, read any book. The later books are better as he had grown as a writer, but still any Discworld book is a fun read. Also, the nome books are quite good, especially the first one, Truckers.

Larry Niven's "Dream Park" trilogy is also enjoyable...

[Toastkart]

I would recommend Jane Lindskold's Firekeeper saga.

Chris Bunch's Dragonmaster series is kind of military fantasy that were pretty good for light reading.

Roger Zelazny has some interesting works blending sci-fi and fantasy that are worth checking out.

So does C.J. Cherryh with her Morgaine series.

Other than that, I add my support for Pratchett as a good choice.

[factotum]

Magician by...Can't remember his name is also very good.


Magician? If you mean the story about Pug the apprentice becoming a super-powerful mage (amongst other things), then that's Raymond E. Feist, who's already been mentioned by Yuuki_Jaagar.

[Emperor Tippy]

There are few fantasy must reads, even the stuff in the OP isn't really a must read. Sure, certain authors and works have had a significant impact on the genre as a whole but you don't loose out on much by not reading them.

Take the Lord of the Rings series, it is undeniably one of the most influential works of fantasy every written but you don't have to read it to understand the genre and not reading it doesn't really hurt you.

There are lots of at least alright fantasy books out there but few rise to the level of must read. About the closest that I can think of to a must read is ASoIaF.

[comicshorse]

I'm suprised nobody has mentioned David Gemmel. 'Legend' is the book that really got me into fantasy ( I'd read LOTR before it but had been impressed) but Gemmel's mixture of epic heroism and gritty violence.
Gemmel's writing can be suspectible to Mary Sue's ( particularly the latter Druss books) but most of his work remains enthralling and occasionally heart-breaking as he isn't shy of killing loved characters.

[hamishspence]

I like David Gemmell books. While mostly fantasy, the Jon Shannow series did post-apocalypse gunslinger quite well, along with time travel.

Morningstar also did time travel.

[snoopy13a]

There's also Piers Anthony, especially if you like puns.

[hamishspence]

I prefer PiersRobert Asprin's Myth Adventures- occasional punny moments, lots of subversions of various tropes, etc.

[Mr.Bookworm]

A Song of Ice and Fire - I'm allllllll the way on the far side of the "love it" camp, but I do remember, back when I grabbed the first book at a used bookshop because it looked interesting and I had some credit, finding it pretty boring. I read the first two chapters, and went didn't like it. I couldn't figure out why everyone's name was misspelled, what the heck a "ser" was, and I found everything from the Ringwraiths to the experienced old tracker archetype to be incredibly trite.

Then I picked it back up a year ago, and it kind of clicked. I devoured all four of them, and I've reread all of them like three times. Now we just need a Dance for Dragons, dammit.

Discworld - Go read them. Right now. You're only problem with these is that you might find the rest of fantasy a little lacking after you finish these.

Good Omens - Written by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman. Awesome, awesome book.

The Dresden Files and the Codex Alera - Not high literature, but they're really enjoyable light reads.

And that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Though I'll second the Robert Jordan hate. TvTropes wasn't kidding when they talked about evil pacifists. Whose massacre was written as heroic.

[hamishspence]

I thought that was Terry Goodkind in Naked Empire.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I thought that was Terry Goodkind in Naked Empire.

So...

So it was.

Okay, stay away from Terry Goodkind, then.

The only thing I can say about Jordan and his series, which I admittedly have only read the first book of so I could be wrong, is that I found it pretty standard. Not bad, not good. Not original, and not entirely cliche-ridden. Just pretty average.

[Baerdog7]

If you are interested in reading more "hard" or low magic fantasy, I highly recommend The Black Company by Glen Cook. The first three books are fantastic. The last six or seven are still good, but don't quite capture the magic of the original trilogy.

I also have to throw in the obligatory Pratchett recommendation and another endorsement of Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell.

[theMycon]

Sticking to "wildly influential, must read"...
James Cabell, especially Jurgen- which influenced Fantasy, Sci-fi, and Pseudo-philosophy for the next 50 years. It's also a phenomenal book. The Cream of the Jest is also great, but not particularly influential. Note that his books ALL require quite a bit of reader energy & thought to get- and often one hell of an education. Fortunately, there's a Notes on "Jurgen" published and put online, in case you miss some of it.

For "Relatively influential, damn good", there's Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light (great book) and Chronicles of Amber (two good books in a ten book series. Neither of them great. Still considered strangely influential.)
Also, Hope Mirless's Lud-in-the-Mists was considered "one of the greatest American works of Fantasy" in the 30's & 40's- basically between it & The Lord of the Rings being published. However, it has been more-or-less eclipsed, and also requires at least two read-throughs to appreciate (and not end it with "wait, why did he do that... why the heck did any of them do any of that?")

[The_Snark]

The only thing I can say about Jordan and his series, which I admittedly have only read the first book of so I could be wrong, is that I found it pretty standard. Not bad, not good. Not original, and not entirely cliche-ridden. Just pretty average.

This is actually what I think of the first few books; I'm always a little surprised when people say they liked the first (one to three) books and that it went downhill from there. I didn't read the first book first, and when I finally did get around to it, it struck me as a Tolkien imitation. There's a Shire, orcs, Ringwraiths, an irresistibly corrupting artifact, lots of Mysterious Capitalized Stuff, an Ent... it wasn't terrible, but it was nothing special.

The Black Company books are good, but I'm not sure they really meet the OP's criteria; well-written and influential/famous do not always go together. Roger Zelazny does, though—can't believe I forgot him.

[snoopy13a]

This is actually what I think of the first few books; I'm always a little surprised when people say they liked the first (one to three) books and that it went downhill from there. I didn't read the first book first, and when I finally did get around to it, it struck me as a Tolkien imitation. There's a Shire, orcs, Ringwraiths, an irresistibly corrupting artifact, lots of Mysterious Capitalized Stuff, an Ent... it wasn't terrible, but it was nothing special.



It is almost certain that if you didn't like his first books, you'll definitely not like his later ones. However, his early books were much more concise and direct than the later ones. Towards the middle of the series, he introduced too many subplots and supporting characters. Not to mention that he went entire books without touching base on various plots or characters, including main ones. I think he left way too many loose ends for the guy who is supposed to finish it to tie up. The series got too complex and slow-moving. I believe that many of Jordan's fans (including myself) were continuing to read it simply because we invested so much time into it and even the bloated books had good parts.

[jazz1m]

Emphasizing:
Jonathon Strange and Mr. Norrell: Awesome. Very long but well-written. There's a lot of footnotes that I didn't entirely read.

Tad Williams: Honestly I prefer his cyberpunk (Otherland) than his fantasy though I did enjoy War of the Flowers.

My recommendations:
Philip Pullman: His Dark Materials Trilogy. Sure it's for young adults but it's very well written and hits upon a lot of interesting themes and, for me at least, is a lot better than chronicles of narnia.

Orson Scott Card Enchantment: A guy finds a way to go back to ancient Russia and is basically enmeshed in a battle in a fairytale, literally. My favorite quote, no one wants to be in a russian fairytale because they all end badly.

The myst series: if you like the games you'll like the books. Starts off pretty slowly but you get really involved towards the end.

[Dacia Brabant]

Philip Pullman: His Dark Materials Trilogy. Sure it's for young adults but it's very well written and hits upon a lot of interesting themes and, for me at least, is a lot better than chronicles of narnia.

Funny, I would say the exact opposite for my part, but I understand why His Dark Materials is (unfortunately) appealing to its intended audience and why Chronicles of Narnia gets a (not entirely undeserved) bad rap.


Anyway, I'll second the recommendation of The Black Company, I think it's superior to ASoIaF personally although nowhere near as famous.

And while you may be full up on Tolkien you might want to pick up The Children of Hurin if you haven't already--and give the Kalevala and Volsungsaga a look too, it's good to have that mythical foundational knowledge when reading modern fantasy I think.

[Anteros]

I like David Gemmell books. While mostly fantasy, the Jon Shannow series did post-apocalypse gunslinger quite well, along with time travel.

Morningstar also did time travel.

Gemmell was also my favorite author. Unfortunately I found the particular books you mentioned to be pretty bad.

To each their own I guess.

[Anteros]

This is actually what I think of the first few books; I'm always a little surprised when people say they liked the first (one to three) books and that it went downhill from there. I didn't read the first book first, and when I finally did get around to it, it struck me as a Tolkien imitation. There's a Shire, orcs, Ringwraiths, an irresistibly corrupting artifact, lots of Mysterious Capitalized Stuff, an Ent... it wasn't terrible, but it was nothing special.


I know plenty of people who don't like the Jordan books, but this is the first time I've heard this argument.


There's a Shire

There's a village. Just a normal village. I don't think Tolkien was either the first, nor the last to have a character come from a village.


There's orcs
Trollocs are pretty visually distinct from orcs. Is any non-human form of enemy troop automatically an orc?


Ringwraiths

Well there are powerful bad creatures who wear black. I can actually see this one, but it's still a pretty weak comparison.


an irresistibly corrupting artifact

I guess this is true. However it's used in a completely different manner than Tolkien used it. It's not like Tolkien was the first or last to ever write about a powerful corrupting force either.


lots of Mysterious Capitalized Stuff

The real world has lots of mysterious capitalized stuff too. Does that mean historians were copying Tolkien?


an Ent

No it didn't.

I'm not really trying to pick an argument with you, I just don't understand why people have to call everything a "Tolkien imitation." By these kinds of standards you could take any kind of novel and call it that.

I also don't get why people act like Tolkien invented these plots and ideas. It's true that the man laid the foundation for modern fantasy, but he himself got these inspirations from writers and storytellers who came before him.

[thestarvingpoet]

I second (third/fourth) those who have mentioned Glen Cook, and Steven Erikson. Glen Cook is seen by some to have started the trend of gritty military fantasy. Steven Erikson's works are influenced by Glen Cook and by far the most epic series I have read. He is my favourite author at the moment, no holds barred - but he's not for casual reader, his books take a lot of effort (the mere fact that there are 8 books so far, each over 1000 pages is daunting).

In the tone of the OP, I'd recommend China Mieville's books - he's one of the main writers in the 'New Weird' genre which kind of mixes science fiction, horror, and fantasy. Very enjoyable.

One of the fantasy authors that I enjoyed a lot growing up was Dave Duncan (he's also done some Science Fiction too...). His Kings Blades series (starting with The Gilded Chain) are a pretty good series. The first two books were amazing, the later ones a little less. West of January, while technically a science fiction book, really feels more like fantasy and is a great story.

[Mordar]

As someone above mentioned, there are few that will be consensus must-reads. As far as influence, take some of these comments as being from someone sufficiently "long in the tooth" to know what things were like when they came out:

1a) The Dragonlance Chronicles *are* influential, enjoyable and important to the modern genre (as you pointed out!);

1b) Salvatore's books - at least the first 2 series' with the Drizz't - are similarly influential.

Both sets are nice reads, relatively low time investment and sufficiently well-judged to have sold bijillions of copies and spawned many many imitators.

2a) The Howard Kull and Conan books are perhaps the truest example of pulp fantasy to survive. Howard is a fantastic writer, an example of the tortured American novelist, to be sure, but greatly enjoyable. Try any of the following (not to discount Solomon Kane, but he's not fantasy):

Conan Vol I (http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Conan-Cimmerian-Cimmeria-Book/dp/0345483855/ref=cm_lmf_tit_1_rsrsrs0)
Conan Vol 2 (http://www.amazon.com/Bloody-Crown-Conan-Cimmeria-Book/dp/0345461525/ref=pd_sim_b_1)
Conan Vol 3 (http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Conan-Cimmerian-Cimmeria-Book/dp/0345483855/ref=cm_lmf_tit_1_rsrsrs0)

There are similar volumes for Kull and Bran Mak Morn - two excellent characters though less known than Conan. This series of books contain wonderful essays about the author and development of the genre along with many many stories.

2b) The Lankhmar books (Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser) by Fritz Lieber are frequently mentioned as one of the seminal fantasy series, really initiating the "Buddy Novel" trope if you will, and served as inspiration for any number of modern fantasy writers. All are available at Amazon, though sadly at a much higher price than I recall paying those many years ago :)

Some books are personally influential, and while by no means must-reads for everyone, they are those that put me on the Fantasy road.

3a) The Sword of Shanara (and at least 2 sequels, Elfstones and Wishsong) by Terry Brooks
3b) The Belgariad by David Eddings
3c) The Pern books by Anne McCaffery
3d) The Lloyd Alexander series you mentioned - great stuff for the proper age group and excellent for everyone else;
3e) Several others that escape me at the moment :)

Anyway, enjoy your project - it's a wonderful journey...don't be too rushed to reach the end!

- Mordar

[snoopy13a]

Speaking of Tolkien's influenced fantasy, the main character in C.S. Lewis' Space Trilogy is partly based on Tolkien (not Tolkien's writings, Tolkien himself).

[Innis Cabal]

Most books on D&D have been mentioned, influence very little outside of D&D itself.

D&D might in and of itself be an influence to modern fantasy, but most of its novels are more products of this, not the movers and shakers of this

[The_Snark]

I know plenty of people who don't like the Jordan books, but this is the first time I've heard this argument.

I should make it clear that I actually do like his books, including the first ones; I just feel like he started to develop his own twists on a lot of the concepts a book or two after he first introduced them.


There's a village. Just a normal village. I don't think Tolkien was either the first, nor the last to have a character come from a village.

A rural area that's secluded from the rest of the world, is more what I meant. Granted, this definitely isn't unique to Tolkien, and it's a useful literary device to have characters begin without much knowledge of the world, so that the reader begins along with them.


Trollocs are pretty visually distinct from orcs. Is any non-human form of enemy troop automatically an orc?

Visually distinct is kind of a nitpick. Aside from appearance, we never really learn enough about their culture to tell if they're all that different, but they serve the exact same purpose as orcs: savage, faceless enemy soldiers. As far as I know (and I could easily be wrong), Tolkien was the one who popularized giving the enemy a race of irredeemably evil non-human minions.


Well there are powerful bad creatures who wear black. I can actually see this one, but it's still a pretty weak comparison.

At the beginning, they play a very parallel role to the Nazgul: powerful servants of the Dark Lord who pursue the heroes, inspiring fear by their very presence. They're even fought in the same way—the mentor figures can drive them off or delay them, but not kill them. As the series went on, they diverged from the role.


I guess this is true. However it's used in a completely different manner than Tolkien used it. It's not like Tolkien was the first or last to ever write about a powerful corrupting force either.

Granted in both senses; the dagger's influence was one of the cooler parts of the book, and I don't think it was really inspired by the Ring much, if at all.


The real world has lots of mysterious capitalized stuff too. Does that mean historians were copying Tolkien?

This isn't so much Tolkien as a rather common fantasy thing. It's not bad in and of itself, but it can grate on people who've read a lot of fantasy. More than that, it's an example of using the atmosphere Tolkien used, trying to convey a sense of the wondrous and the unknown.

In later books, the atmosphere changed: pretty much everything is known. Magic has defined rules, more like a science than a mythical force; most of the varieties of Shadowspawn are definitively named. The world map is pretty much explored, even if we're only given hints of a few areas. There are still totally unknown things, but it is made clear that these are bizarre in the context of the world, not just par for the course. To give an example- Bilbo doesn't want to know why there are giant spiders in Mirkwood, he just accepts it, because there are a lot of strange things in the world. The characters from the Wheel of Time do much the same in the first book or two, with Shadar Logoth, the Green Man, and the bizarre things in the Blight. If they'd found something that strange in later books, it would be noticed as unusual, and they would investigate why it was there.

At this point I've kind of strayed, because conveying the sense of a world full of mysterious and fantastic things isn't at all limited to Tolkien. Just analyzing some of the differences between the first books and later ones.


No it didn't.

Really? We had the Green Man, who was an actual tree-like being of immense age, with power over plants. There were also the Ogier, who arguably draw inspiration from both Ents and elves, but those are noticeably different, and I think it's sort of telling that Jordan emphasized them over more things like the Green Man.


I'm not really trying to pick an argument with you, I just don't understand why people have to call everything a "Tolkien imitation." By these kinds of standards you could take any kind of novel and call it that.

I also don't get why people act like Tolkien invented these plots and ideas. It's true that the man laid the foundation for modern fantasy, but he himself got these inspirations from writers and storytellers who came before him.

Imitation is kind of a strong word; inspiration is probably better. As someone recently pointed out here, the whole Wheel motif represents how the same stories are told and retold in different ways, so of course he's using popular conventions. It's just that in my opinion, it took him a couple books to figure out how do this right*, and so the early books feel like a very typical example of an epic fantasy, which is a genre heavily influenced by Tolkien.

*right, adjective; 1) of, pertaining to, or located on or near the side of a person or thing that is turned toward the east when the subject is facing north; 2) in conformity with fact, reason, truth, or some standard or principle; 3) in accordance with what I, personally, happen to think is good.
I don't mind talking about this, but if we're going to continue we should probably take it to its own thread or PMs, so as not to derail the book suggestions; pretty much everyone's agreed that it's not what the OP is looking for, given length and the possibility he'll dislike it.

And... oh yes, Gene Wolfe is another author I'd recommend. His books can be slow going, and a lot of the ones that look like fantasy are in fact science fiction or science fantasy, but the Wizard Knight duology is solidly fantasy (probably). It plays around with Norse myths a lot, so if you've read any of that it should be fun.

[Eerie]

No one mentions The Dark Tower by Stephen King? Wierd...

Also, Neverending Book is very good.

[Mordar]

Most books on D&D have been mentioned, influence very little outside of D&D itself.

D&D might in and of itself be an influence to modern fantasy, but most of its novels are more products of this, not the movers and shakers of this

In general, probably true. Specifically, however, Salvatore's books have been frequent NYTimes Bestseller List visitors - as indicated in this press release (http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/index.jsp?epi-content=GENERIC&newsId=20071011006006&ndmHsc=v2*A1192100400000*B1192170893000*DgroupByDa te*G8*J1*N1000837&newsLang=en&beanID=202776713&viewID=news_view). Sure, a lot of books make the list...but are they really just D&D fans alone behind it?

- Mordar

[H. Zee]

The Gentleman Bastard books by Scott Lynch, and The First Law trilogy by Joe Abercrombie.

Okay, they're too recent to be influential in the same way as, say, Zelazny or Martin, but they're damn good.

[WalkingTarget]

[stuff about Jordan and Tolkien]

I'll say this much: Jordan said explicitly that the opening sections of The Eye of the World were intentionally an homage to Tolkien, so a lot of the stuff you mention is intentional. There's an similar tendency for people to make comparisons with Herbert's Dune books too, but I think that's more of a case of authors drawing from similar background than an intentional parallel.

Most of the suggestions I'd make for "must-reads" are already covered (Pratchett, GRRM, Zelazny, etc.) but one of my favorite, but seemingly not as well known authors is Steven Brust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Brust). Particularly his stuff set on Dragaera (starting with Jhereg).

[Brewdude]

So, "must reads" is different that "something good to read".

I define "must read" as being Liable to lose your Geek Credentials if you don't have an opinion about them.

By that criteria, Terry Goodkin, Robert Jordan, and George Martin are all must reads, as is Dark Tower by Steven King (which, granted, I've still managed to not read, but that's a personal thing). If you haven't read them, your opinions on all other fantasy will be suspect, as they then lack grounding. Robert Jordan was my minimum quality standard for fantasy (dispite what other posters are saying, I like that the concepts of magic are introduced purely by other characters, all of whom have their own perspective, and many of whom are WRONG), while Martin sets the bar for me in information density per chapter and number of OMFG moments per book (you put it down after the first few chapters? Push through 'till this line: "the things I do for love." If you are not hooked by then, you need to read a lot of other fantasy first to appreciate feeling true fear for the lives of your favorite characters.). Goodkin, to me, defines boring writing (this happened. then this happened. then this happened.) in a way I haven't yet seen 'till I started reading David Drake "isle" Fantasy.

There's a lot of stuff that's mediocre that is on the list, but These are what I think of as basic fantasy:

Thieves World, edited by Robert Asprin.
Belgariad and Mallorean
Riftwar Saga
Pern
Piers Anthony
Discworld
Drizzt stuff
Early dragonlance.

Most of the rest, while good fantasy, isn't required for casual geek conversation. Sadly, I include Glen Cook Black Company novels to this, as it's some of my favorite, but if you skip it, yer not gonna get tested on it at the next convention.

[Severian]

I'm a big fan of Gene Wolfe (as shown by my username), and would definitely recommend The Book of the New Sun. Probably the best Fantasy (probably better described as Science Fantasy) I've read. His writing is amazing, especially if you take the trouble to really dig into it by reading the Wolfe wiki (http://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WolfeWiki.Contents) and looking through the Urth mailing list archives (http://www.urth.net/). He puts a lot into it.

Wolfe's Wizard Knight books were also good, but I liked the New Sun books a lot more.

Some other favorites:

The Wolf of Winter by Paula Volsky
Illusion by Paula Volsky

These both have some parallels with history, but it makes them more interesting in my opinion. Illusion seems to draw on the French Revolution a bit, and Wolf of Winter on the Russian Tsars.

The Death Gate Cycle by Weis and Hickman. I liked their DragonLance books way back in the day, but The Death Gate Cycle is even better. It was one of those series I grew up on.

I grew up on R.A. Salvatore's Driz'zt stuff as well, and also enjoyed them.

The Anvil of Ice by Michael Scott Rohan. Lovely book. I haven't read the sequels, but it focuses a lot on mage smithing, and has a lot of great imagery and mystery.

The Dark is Rising by Susan Cooper - This is technically Young Adult, but it was another series I greatly enjoyed growing up. I still pull out The Dark is Rising (2nd book in the series, has same name as series) every Christmas or so, because it is a Christmas story. There was a movie adaptation of this book not too long ago, but from what I understand, it sucked.

The Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander also fit into this category. I enjoyed them all growing up except the last one, which left me cold for some reason. It was interesting to read the books and then watch Disney's rendition of The Black Cauldron, which was kind of a munging together of the first two books, The Book of Three and The Black Cauldron.

Jack Vance's Tales of the Dying Earth is definitely worth a read, too. You can see all sorts of inspiration for later works there, including D&D. The best parts about these stories are the descriptions. Vance's earth with its dying sun is a tragically beautiful place. It was also an inspiration for Gene Wolfe's New Sun books (which also feature a dying sun).

Robert Jordan was kind of fun growing up, until I started not to give a crap about what most of the characters were doing, and he refused to write about the characters I wanted to hear about until about 50 pages from the end of a 1000+ page book. Way back in book six I joked that he'd die before finishing the series. Then I felt bad when he actually did. :smallfrown:

Have to agree with the majority here and say that George R. R. Martin is great. I've only read the first book in A Song of Ice and Fire, but it was excellent.

Also, the ColdFire trilogy by C.S. Friedman was really great. I picked up Black Sun Rising on a whim, and I really enjoyed the world and how magic worked. The characters were some of the most memorable I've come across.

That's about all I can think of right now. I've written a little more about some of these books on a literature-themed blog I contribute to (www.booksunderthebridge.com)

[JellyPooga]

One that's relatively unknown, but is an absolutely amazing read, is The Deed of Paksennarion by Elizabeth Moon (a trilogy consisting of Sheepfarmers Daughter, Divided Allegiance and Oath of Gold). The story of a farmers daughter who runs away to become a mercenary and ends up becoming a Paladin. The plot isn't really anything that special, although it's a refreshing take on the old story of a peasant finding his/her destiny, but the inter-character relations are very well played out and by the end of the second chapter, you feel like the main characer (Paksenarrion) is like your sister or something...you really know who she is and how and what she feels at any given time.

edit: The style is definitively low-fantasy...the characters have to worry about supplies, wounds getting infected, getting exhausted by long marches, etc. Magic is rare and something to be wary of, if not feared.

[Gavin Sage]

The only thing I can say about Jordan and his series, which I admittedly have only read the first book of so I could be wrong, is that I found it pretty standard. Not bad, not good. Not original, and not entirely cliche-ridden. Just pretty average.

Its a bit wrong to criticize eleven doorstoppers of material when you've only read the first one and got it confused with another series entirely. Though as a major fan of the series I freely admit that the first book is not as strong as later ones.

However that said, tropes are not cliches (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreNotBad). The entire Wheel of Time is fairly self-aware series, from the author's point of view anyways. If the opening chapters feel right out of Tolkien, that because its an extended Shout Out to said series. The entire series isn't trying to be new. In fact that there is nothing new is an underlying point, because time circles itself like the Ouroboros cosuming its tail.

(For the record and not that I'm unbiased, but frankly I find some of the most common criticisms of the series to be at best missing the point. Not that there aren't things to criticize about the series.)

[snoopy13a]

Speaking of The Wheel of Time, does anyone know what is going on with the replacement author? Just wondering if there's a timeline for release yet.

I also think it would be interesting to read through Jordan's notes (I know they'll never be released). I'm sure he had tons of background information on the characters.

[WalkingTarget]

Brandon Sanderson has a blog (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/). He talks about his own projects too, of course, but there's plenty of stuff on AMoL.

Edit for specifics: From what he's said, he's gotten through a considerable portion (if not all) of the first draft and is starting to get feedback on the sections he's submitted.

There has been talk of eventually publishing Jordan's notes, but that's way in the future anyway (and is probably up to his widow/editor in the end).

[MammonAzrael]

I can't really adding anything new to the thread in terms of authors (though I will certainly be checking many of them :smallsmile:).

All I saying is that in regards to Robert Jordan and the WoT, while the story might not be terribly innovative and certainly not perfect, the magic system is very well done. While it might not be worth your time to read the whole series just for that, you could look at either the WoT d20 game or the World of the WoT book to get a feel for the magic system, which I love.

(And yes, I am a fan of the series, so there may be some bias there)

Oh, and go read Good Omens. Now. It may not be a fantasy book, but that doesn't matter. It's hilarious.

[Hardcore]

How many know that Jordan also wrote Conan novels? I recall reading at least one, and remember I felt it really brought forward his talent for writing.
Maybe because each book was a stand alone work.

I agree with Brerwdude in that there are fantasy that are mediocre (or even outright bad), and T.Brooks and Eddings are certainly good contenders for the most dispensible fantasy authors.
Reading Eddings, for example, is really a waste of your times. After the umptenth time they outsmart the enemy you want to throttle the author.

The best fantasy authors I know are Pratchett, and Katerine Kerr.
Kerr is the only author that have, and will, succeed in writing a really long series without having to fill out the books with fluff like Jordan did.
Very well written with consistenly high quality over the whole series. Much recommended.


I noticed Someone mentioned Paksenarion. My main complaint is that the character is as interesting as dough.
Even a farmers daught can have a colourful character, and it would have improved the books no end if she had been portrayed that way.

[hamishspence]

i've read several Jordan Conan books. Haven't read Wheel of Time though.

(he wrote a novelization of the Conan The Destroyer movie as well)

[Telonius]

Some of these are at least partially crossover.

Thieves' World and the Myth series, Robert Asprin
A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, Mark Twain
The Dark is Rising, Susan Cooper
Book of the New Sun, Gene Wolfe
The Once and Future King and The Book of Merlyn, T. H. White
Sir Apropos of Nothing, Peter David
The Iron Dream, Norman Spinrad
Dune, Frank Herbert
Chosen of Harrekh, me. (I swear it will be published someday! :smallbiggrin:)

[Severian]

I was just looking at my bookshelf, and I noticed a couple more books that sort of it in as fantasy books to read:

Little, Big by John Crowley - Has fairies and such, but set in modern times.
The Court of the Air by Stephen Hunt - this is a recent novel, as opposed to most of my other recommendations. It's only "sort of" fantasy because it's Steam Punk.

I enjoyed both of these books.



Chosen of Harrekh, me. (I swear it will be published someday! :smallbiggrin:)

Hey Telonius, you have your stuff posted anywhere to read? It looks like we like some of the same authors, and if you're interested in some criticism, I'd be up for giving you some. I'm working on a few stories of my own, and wouldn't mind some criticism in return. You can actually check out one of my current projects, Iron & Ash (http://www.ironandash.com), linked in my signature.

[Gavin Sage]

Kerr is the only author that have, and will, succeed in writing a really long series without having to fill out the books with fluff like Jordan did.

I'm actually shocked by the very minimal fluff in the series. No seriously.

I'm not talking about things like descriptions of meals or clothing. The dense detail is so omnipresent, which is not what people really complain about with the books take forever. It makes them doorstoppers for sure, but its not the cause of the fatigue people feel in back half of the series. Since as I said its omnipresent through the books.

The problem in the back half of the series is Jordan reaches the scale he spent five books building up too. The Wheel of Time is telling a sweeping epic in a fairly realistic fashion. There are thousands of characters, because thousands of people drive the course of world affairs. So help me almost every individual subplot has noticable effects on the story as a whole. Two characters we've never met start getting time, sounds unnessecary except these characters are taking up a hunt none of the major characters are in position to do (yet) and is going to tie directly into Egwene's subplot. And she's the fourth most important character in the series.

Now there's exceptions to this of course, but most of the sheer mass of characters and subplots are not actually fluff. Now we can start trimming subplots right and left, but with the living and breathing world that the series establishes you would have a very different story before it was done. I for one would not be able to apreciate the books so much, because its the amazing level of detail and construction that lets me dig more nuggets out of the series every time I read it. Most fantasy I read leaves me hungry for more thought being put into it.

Well except the Dresden Files which run on purified win and awesome.

[small pumpkin m]

Looking through my bookshelf I'd second Glenn Cook's Black Company Books, apparently the first three are considered more enjoyable, but I liked all the ones I've read so far, and they are pretty quintessential. Poul Anderson's books are also both relatively unknown and fairly influential at the same time, kind a Velvet Underground deal. Both Gygax and Moorcock really liked his stuff, and they in turn influenced a lot of 70's and 80's fantasy. I'd say you want both The Broken Sword and Three Hearts and Three Lions, although you could go for Hrolf Kraki's Saga and his Conan stuff (which I would argue is much better than Jordan's) is you want to be thorough. On a different tack, I did enjoy Chronicles of Prydain, although I enjoyed it much more reading it as a teenager. Also, have you read the Silmarillan? I know, know, it's big and a lot of it isn't proper stories, but there's some good stuff there.

As for more recent stuff, Mieville is very interesting, I personally found his writing style both tiresome and purple at the same time, but he has some very cool ideas, his books are full of things that either should be in fantasy more and aren't, or are strange D&Disms that he's looked at and decided to just run with until they actually make sense/work within the world. Perdido St Station is the one people remember, although I would argue The Scar is easier to get into.


Its a bit wrong to criticize eleven doorstoppers of material when you've only read the first one and got it confused with another series entirely. Though as a major fan of the series I freely admit that the first book is not as strong as later ones.
Except that the Wheel of time is famous more for the way it gets worse as time goes on than anything else (except maybe Rand's Marty Stuishness). Maybe the best books are the second and third, but I don't think you can really blame the guy for deciding the series is not that great after reading what is supposed to be "one of the good ones". Perhaps I'm biased since my impression of WoT was also "not that bad just forgettable" but I do think asking people to read more than one book of that size before making an impression of the series is being somewhat unpleasable.

[Gavin Sage]

Except that the Wheel of time is famous more for the way it gets worse as time goes on than anything else (except maybe Rand's Marty Stuishness). Maybe the best books are the second and third, but I don't think you can really blame the guy for deciding the series is not that great after reading what is supposed to be "one of the good ones". Perhaps I'm biased since my impression of WoT was also "not that bad just forgettable" but I do think asking people to read more than one book of that size before making an impression of the series is being somewhat unpleasable.

Allow me to clarify series is at its best somewhere between book three and six. Or that's what a general overview of the fanbase espouses in my experience, though I don't disagree. When I say the first book is weaker, its in comparasion to its immediate followers not the back half of the series. And how it is weaker is that its a bit of the oddball of the series in style, touching on relatively little of the main story which starts up in the second book. I personally attribute this to being the first book thus Jordan wouldn't have real assurances of a sequel getting published.

On the series getting weaker as a whole. While not untrue this perception is completely over stated. When I read back to back into book eleven I find that books seven through ten form a distinct dramatic role in the over arching story. A good part of the first five books are spent building Rand up, begining in the end of five and through six shows him being succesively broken down. Its the part where things stop being easy for him, beyond the hardship he's already experienced. This is mirrored by the overall pattern too. The problem is without the conclusion the pattern never gets built back up again. The end of book nine kind of signals an end to this, but ten fails to continue being an experiment that didn't work (Jordan admitted this) however you see things drawing into a concluding narrative with book eleven. Of course then there was author existence failure. If the two volumes of number twelve get finished right though expect people to not bitch about the middle as much. Because there is the conclusion, the light at the end of the tunnel, not merely the endless tunnel.

Also if Rand is a Mary Sue then the term has lost all meaning. Its hard to argue he's an avatar for the author, who might resemble Mat if anyone based on the stuff I've read of Jordan. Rand doesn't deliever any author tracts on morality and rightness like we've come to expect from Richard Rahl. And despite what you may here he does not simply make the plot conform to him.

That's right, that whole "ta'veren" stuff that ostensibly makes ridiculous sueism a justified trope. The series consistently subverts the entire notion. The series says it outright at least once, in stories when prophecy is fufilled people rejoice or cry out "yea it is done" or some such and fall in behind the hero. In the Wheel of Time it is never that simple. Most of the people that ostensibly kneel down before the prophecied savior, imediately start try to welch and manuver out of it somehow. Rand doesn't bind nations to himself, he has to pull them in kicking and screaming. Even the closest example is less then it might seem on the surface.

Rand Al'Thor isn't the hero everybody loves on sight and saves the world with a wave of his hand. He's the hero everybody didn't want to come, don't really want to admit has come, and who has to save the world by dragging it kicking and screaming. He more of a deconstruction of the heroic archetype then anything else. That's NOT Mary Sue whatever else it may be.

[KerfuffleMach2]

K.A.Applegate has two good series under her belt. Although, one might be more sci-fi than fantasy.

Animorphs - Haven't read these in a while, but they were really good books.

Everworld - Not really heard of, but awesome. Basic premise is that the gods of old had left our world a long time ago and created their own world, called Everworld. And, a group of kids from here get sucked into their world.

[Atelm]

I'll put forth suggestions for the following:

1) The Face in the Frost by John Bellairs; a short one, but a definite must-read. This novel also influenced the early D&D in that Prospero, the main character, has to study his spells before hand.

2) The Black Magician trilogy by Trudi Canavan.

3) Robin Hobb's (Along with said author's other pen name Megan Lindholm's) writings are well worth the read. The Soldier Son trilogy is what I'd recommend most of all out of all her works.

[Ghal Marak]

Might as well throw in my 2p. My favorites were:

1: The Unwilling Warlord by Lawrence Watt-Evans. I enjoyed it and plan on rounding up the rest of the books.

2: Genevieve , a Warhammer book. I can't remember the authors name, and it may not be for everyone. It is a little distant from the usual as far a Warhammer goes (Vampires acceptible within the Empire! Blasphemy!).

3: Just about anything written by William King. I loved all his books (or at least, the ones I've read), especialy the Gotrek and Felix series.

[Phaedra]

Hmm, people have mentioned pretty much everyone I'd recommend: Katherine Kerr, David Gemmell, Pratchett etc.

I'm going to put in a mention of Sara Douglass as well though - her Tencendor series is good fantasy, especially the second trilogy, which is pretty dark at times. Personally, I think her later series are better, though they're not really classic fantasy, more sort of alternative timelines (though with definite fantasy themes).

Kate Elliott's Crown of Stars series is pretty good too if you like traditional fantasy, though her sub-plots have a tendency to run away from her.

[Telonius]

Hey Telonius, you have your stuff posted anywhere to read? It looks like we like some of the same authors, and if you're interested in some criticism, I'd be up for giving you some. I'm working on a few stories of my own, and wouldn't mind some criticism in return. You can actually check out one of my current projects, Iron & Ash (http://www.ironandash.com), linked in my signature.

I don't have anything uploaded yet; I'd prefer not to get into any "previously published" difficulties if I actually get an agent. But PM me your e-mail and I'll send you the introduction!

[ClericPreston]

i really don't read much fantasy, (I'm much more of a sci-fi fan) however, I am a fanatic about the fantasy stuff that I do read. I cannot recommend the "Dresden Files" by Jim Butcher enough. I also greatly enjoy a lot of Warhammer novels, just about anything in that series by William King, Graham McNeill, Dan Abnett, or Nathan Long is worth reading.

[Lord of the Helms]

I second Jim Butcher's Dresden Files. Not as a "must-read", but definitely as an "genuinely massive fun read". Butcher writes with the express intent of his reader saying "I had a great time reading this book, it was fun!", and imo manages perfectly. They're entertaining, in good yet simple, easy-to-read prose, full of constant action and cool stuff happening.

[Gavin Sage]

I think there's accord on the Dresden Files, and who cares if they aren't Tolkien high-fantasy.

Its honestly the only series I know that has consistently improved as it goes along.

[Lord of the Helms]

I think there's accord on the Dresden Files, and who cares if they aren't Tolkien high-fantasy.

Its honestly the only series I know that has consistently improved as it goes along.

I think part of the reason why they clicked so well with me is that they're the complete opposite of the huge door stopper, 20 POV-characters-per-book, giant-arc-storyline-that-won't-be-resolved-till-after-10-books-at-least mega-fantasy a la Wheel of Time or Song of Ice and Fire that I'd grown rather tired of. It's good, happy, light-to-read entertainment, there's only a single first-person-smartass character, the books are case-by-case and while there are overarching plotlines, the main plot of any book is always resolved in a more-or-less happy ending when you've read through. In terms of fun and pacing, it's as if every chapter were about Tyrion Lannister or Mat Cauthon instead of having to wade through 100 pages of less-than-awesome to more-than-dull (or occasionally eye-gougingly horrific, a la the pain in my skull and soul that is reading Elaida's or Cersei's POV chapters) stuff to get back to the awesomeness.

Codex Alera is also nice, although it never clicked as well with me as Dresden Files. It's still a good attempt at an interesting setting with sympathetic characters and also decent pacing.

[Gavin Sage]

I actually think I would hate WoT and SoFaI if they were all Mat and Tryion chapters. The stories told in both series are too big and complex to happen just looking over the shoulders of a few characters. Which is not to say that this is good or bad, but fantasy as a genre does not imply anything remotely similar in writing style or story construction.

Codex Alera falls into the same trap most high-fantasy writing does of being not-our-world but not quite a living one in its own right. I know I'm in the minority on this one, but being such a big fan of the WoT reduces my ablity to enjoy other series. I'm the guy that apreciates all thought put into world building. Unfortunately I come to expect a truly through level of development put into my fantasy settings. Which results in almost every author coming up short. My list is pretty much: Tolkien, Herbert, Martin, and Jordan. (Yes I consider Dune more fantasy then sci-fi)

Now this isn't to say I dislike other works, but its a subtle lacking that a lot of high-fantasy writing falls into for me. I keep looking for a new series to dig and can't quite get caught up in one.

Something like the Dresden Files completely avoids the problem though, mostly by being character driven and focused. Despite some of the mammoth forces in play with a number of the books, I think epic would be a tremendously bad description for the series. I read the books as much for Harry chatting with Michael/Thomas/Bob/Molly/Lash/Murphy/etc as anything that actually happens plot wise. And for that matter Harry doesn't have to save the world in every book, that is really just a sideshow when it happens. At the same time something like Harry commanding the White Council to beat the Red Court the hard way, isn't something that would work in the series anytime soon.

I feel like I'm babbling though and about to start contradicting myself thoug. No hard rules when it comes to literature.

[Tam_OConnor]

I second the recommendation of Steven Brust, both the Vlad Taltos series (Dresden Files-esque) and the Khaavern Romances (Dumas as fantasy).

Weis and Hickman's Deathgate Cycle was good reading; maybe not innovative. but good solid fantasy.

I un-recommend David Feintuch, not that anyone has mentioned him. Featuring a protagonist more unlikable than Thomas Covenant in chapter seven of the first book.

[Lord of the Helms]

I actually think I would hate WoT and SoFaI if they were all Mat and Tryion chapters. The stories told in both series are too big and complex to happen just looking over the shoulders of a few characters. Which is not to say that this is good or bad, but fantasy as a genre does not imply anything remotely similar in writing style or story construction.

Codex Alera falls into the same trap most high-fantasy writing does of being not-our-world but not quite a living one in its own right. I know I'm in the minority on this one, but being such a big fan of the WoT reduces my ablity to enjoy other series. I'm the guy that apreciates all thought put into world building. Unfortunately I come to expect a truly through level of development put into my fantasy settings. Which results in almost every author coming up short. My list is pretty much: Tolkien, Herbert, Martin, and Jordan. (Yes I consider Dune more fantasy then sci-fi)

Now this isn't to say I dislike other works, but its a subtle lacking that a lot of high-fantasy writing falls into for me. I keep looking for a new series to dig and can't quite get caught up in one.

Something like the Dresden Files completely avoids the problem though, mostly by being character driven and focused. Despite some of the mammoth forces in play with a number of the books, I think epic would be a tremendously bad description for the series. I read the books as much for Harry chatting with Michael/Thomas/Bob/Molly/Lash/Murphy/etc as anything that actually happens plot wise. And for that matter Harry doesn't have to save the world in every book, that is really just a sideshow when it happens. At the same time something like Harry commanding the White Council to beat the Red Court the hard way, isn't something that would work in the series anytime soon.

I feel like I'm babbling though and about to start contradicting myself thoug. No hard rules when it comes to literature.

Don't get me wrong, I really like Wheel of Time and to a lesser extent ASOIAF for the world-building and huge epic scope, but after so much of it, felt it great when I could read Dresden Files and just have pure fun, action dialogue and character goodness on and on without pause or constant hopping back and forth throughout, which neither of the former two, by neccessity, can grant me. I'd miss out a lot in either one if I only read the ass-kicking awesomeness personified chapters of Mat or Tyrion; in Dresden Files, I don't have to miss out on anything, because it's written to fit a single fun POV character to begin with.

Anyhow. I do not know if he's been translated well, but as a German, Michael Ende is a positive childhood classic for me that is still very much worth reading as an adult and was my first dabbling into heavier literature. Neverending Story is the obvious choice, and Momo is also an interesting play with a concept a whole lot more..bizzarre.

[WychWeird]

No one mentions The Dark Tower by Stephen King? Wierd...

Whilst it was well written, I'd not be able to recommend this as a read - I enjoyed it up to the last book where it fell apart because of the inclusion of one character and the ending left me feeling completely dissatisfied.

One series I think is always over looked is Julian May's Saga of the Exiles made up of 4 books (and followed by a singleton and then another series of 3) - an excellent blend of sci-fi and fantasy that's quite easy to swallow (in the Saga books.)

[Anteros]

How can you possible call Rand from WoT a Mary Sue? The last time I checked, most author inserts aren't

Insane, cripples, who have multiple personality disorders, a questionable, and evolving morality, and everyone in the entire world hating, and wanting to kill them.

Honestly people, "mary sue" is not a general term for any character you don't personally like. Stop using it that way.

[Lupy]

This is what I would recommend looking at, and all of these are usually in my Books a Million and Barnes a Noble, and so they will probably be in yours (I live in a small town).

The Dragonriders of Pern (Anne McCaffrey) has and always will hold a special place in my heart. I can't even explain how much I love those books. ((Not all of them were great, but the original trilogy and the Harper Hall trilogy are amazing.))

Sorrow, Memory, and Thorn (Tad Williams) - A very unsettling series, but I liked it. If you start it you have to read all 1500 pages though.

The Belgariad/Mellorian (David Eddings) - A cliche fantasy story, but it had very entertaining characters.

The Sword of Shannara (Terry Brooks) - The classic Lord of the Rings rip-off, but it had it very entertaining moments, and some great characters.

The Obsidian Trilogy (Mercedes Lackey) - Not a famous story, but it was a very powerful story, I understand that all of Lackey's work is good though (She is my mother's favorite author).

The Mists of Avalon (Marion Zimmer Bradley) - If you can get past the feminist/neopagan agenda, it put a beautiful twist on the story of King Arthur. I thought it was a bit graphic though, at times. PM me for a bit more information if that makes you apprehensive about reading it.

Camber of Culdi (Katherine Kurtz) - These books were very original, they are about a Catholic Church run by Psions. It sounds crazy, but I loved them.

[Liffguard]

R. Scott Bakker, The Prince of Nothing trilogy.
Never has a series of books make me really think like this series has. It's set in a world based on Medieval Mediterranean Europe and the Holy Land, on the eve of the first "Holy War." The plot of the books follow the first crusade to a greater or lesser extent. Where these books really shine are the characters, who are all immensely complex and well-realised individuals. The series is also well known for its philosophical discussions which are wide-ranging and very in-depth. The overall theme of the series is the nature of agency, and just how much of our actions and personalities are direct products of our circumstances.

[Ar-Pharazon]

You mention three Thomas Covenant books--there are actually six; there was a second trilogy released after the first one. Definitely worth a read if you liked the first trilogy.

I hate Thomas Covenant and Donaldson is imaginative, but puts his talent to evil



"The Worm Ouroborous" I found quite irritating, especially the way it ended, but I won't spoil it for you by explaining why.


I kind of liked the ending, it makes sense on context, if you are a main character and not a nameless spear carrier I suppose.

[Demons_eye]

Skimed most of the thread so sorry if anything was all ready sugested.

Books that I have read that were good and fantasy

Enders game by O.S.C. (SiFi but still good)
Seeker by Nicholson, William (A story about mans need for gods)
The first law books (saw it was said before but still good book)
And last but not least
Name of the wind, this book is the best I have read so far really sugest reading it.

I have read more but they were ok the books I have said are really good so pick them up if you can.