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Mark Hall
2009-01-24, 06:08 PM
So, my DM has a couple house rules regarding language. The first is that you gain a number of additional languages equal to your Intelligence bonus. Tied with that, you cannot begin with either Celestial or Infernal.

However, he has a third language rule that Virgo's thread tripped in my mind... anything said in Celestial is understood by everyone who hears it.

Given that ruling, however, do you think it should apply to Infernal, as well?

(Hzurr, this is just theoretical stuff; given that I know neither language; just playing with concepts).

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-24, 06:18 PM
Tied with that, you cannot begin with either Celestial or Infernal.

However, he has a third language rule that Virgo's thread tripped in my mind... anything said in Celestial is understood by everyone who hears it.

Given that ruling, however, do you think it should apply to Infernal, as well?
This is pretty close to 4E RAW, actually. When outsiders speak Supernal or Abyssal, you can understand everything they say; when you learn it, it doesn't work like that, but you can't start with it anyway.

Why Abyssal but not Primordial? Damned if I know. Yes, it would probably make more sense if you could understand the language of the other creators--Primordial--instead of the exact same language twisted horribly by unfathomable evil.

EDIT: Concentrating on your situation: since Infernal is based on Celestial, but then warped by devils for their diabolical purposes, I would incline Infernal toward the purposes of devils--that is, confusing and deceiving and ensnaring others. Make it a language well suited for lies, not truth, filled with byzantine grammar and Newspeak implications and "false friends" that play off of Celestial's babelfish abilities. Someone fluent in Infernal should be able to use these aspects to be really good at lying and asking probing questions (all the better to snare you with, my dear), but not so good at actual honest conversation.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-01-24, 06:31 PM
EDIT: Concentrating on your situation: since Infernal is based on Celestial, but then warped by devils for their diabolical purposes, I would incline Infernal toward the purposes of devils--that is, confusing and deceiving and ensnaring others. Make it a language well suited for lies, not truth, filled with byzantine grammar and Newspeak implications and "false friends" that play off of Celestial's babelfish abilities. Someone fluent in Infernal should be able to use these aspects to be really good at lying and asking probing questions (all the better to snare you with, my dear), but not so good at actual honest conversation.

Celestial gives +2 Diplomacy, Infernal gives +2 Bluff. Bam.

I'd say both should be understood by all listeners. How else are Imps and such supposed to communicate with their "masters" :smalltongue:

I presume you're splitting up the 4E languages a bit, since both Angels and Devils speak Supernal - Infernal does not exist. I'm doing the same thing, to make raiding Lost Civilizations slightly more difficult. It's very 2E :smallbiggrin:

Virgo
2009-01-24, 06:35 PM
EDIT: Concentrating on your situation: since Infernal is based on Celestial, but then warped by devils for their diabolical purposes, I would incline Infernal toward the purposes of devils--that is, confusing and deceiving and ensnaring others. Make it a language well suited for lies, not truth, filled with byzantine grammar and Newspeak implications and "false friends" that play off of Celestial's babelfish abilities. Someone fluent in Infernal should be able to use these aspects to be really good at lying and asking probing questions (all the better to snare you with, my dear), but not so good at actual honest conversation.

I second this: somewhere (Fiendish Codex II, I think) Infernal is described as mathematically rigorous. Presumably, as with most langauges, native speakers have far greater fluency with the subtle implications and meanings of the language... Unfortunatly for nonnative spreakers, those little things are the difference between, "Let's have tea," and, "Your soul is mine."

Yakk
2009-01-24, 07:03 PM
Speaking the Higher Tongues is extremely difficult. A PC can speak in a Higher Tongue that they know how to speak by burning an action point.

Higher Tongues can be understood by any intelligent being, but the language itself warps it.

With the exception of Primordial, once you run out of Healing Surges, you can continue to "break the language". You cannot use these languages as lie detectors.

Celestial: Non-native Celestial speakers lose a healing surge if they tell a lie or otherwise deceive in Celestial. This grants a -5 penalty to Bluffing in Celestial, but a +3 bonus to Diplomacy.

Infernal: Non-native Infernal speakers when hearing Infernal feel their soul being scraped at. This generates a -5 penalty to Diplomacy rolls, but a +3 bonus to Bluff checks, in Infernal. Making a bargain that isn't technically genuine costs a healing surge to a non-native Infernal speaker.

Abyssal: Non-native Abysmal speakers lose a healing surge whenever they attempt to make anything except for content-less threats in this language. It generates a feeling of dread and fear in those who hear it, granting a +3 bonus to Intimidate checks, and a -5 penalty to all other social skill checks.

Primordial: Primordial is the language of creation. Every sentence/statement/skill check (or every 10 words if you don't break it up into statements/skill checks) you speak in Primordial costs you a healing surge. All social skill rolls gain a +2 bonus when speaking in Primordial.

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How is that for a quick effect for each language?

The cost of an action point makes it something you don't want to do often. The healing surge costs for Celestial/Abyssal/Infernal attach the "you cannot deceive in Celestial, tell a technical falsehood in Infernal, or do anything besides talk about how you will eat someone's soul in Abyssal".

Primordial becomes a language that is "all of the above", but extremely costly to speak in.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-24, 07:16 PM
How is that for a quick effect for each language?

The cost of an action point makes it something you don't want to do often. The healing surge costs for Celestial/Abyssal/Infernal attach the "you cannot deceive in Celestial, tell a technical falsehood in Infernal, or do anything besides talk about how you will eat someone's soul in Abyssal".

Primordial becomes a language that is "all of the above", but extremely costly to speak in.

I love it! Yoinked!

bosssmiley
2009-01-25, 05:08 PM
So, my DM has a couple house rules regarding language. The first is that you gain a number of additional languages equal to your Intelligence bonus. Tied with that, you cannot begin with either Celestial or Infernal.

However, he has a third language rule that Virgo's thread tripped in my mind... anything said in Celestial is understood by everyone who hears it.

Given that ruling, however, do you think it should apply to Infernal, as well?

Sounds like the something from "In Nomine" (which is only ever to the good).

I'd say:
Celestial: Speakers cannot directly lie. It's just grammatically impossible.
Infernal: Speakers cannot speak the plain truth. You can hedge about things like an uncommitted lawyer, but if you try to speak the plain truth you end up sounding like Sir Humphrey from "Yes, Minister".
Demonic: It sounds like Death Metal 'Cookie Monster' vocals. You can make sense of it eventually, but it'll give you a headache, a sore neck and a hangover doing so.
Primordial: Cannot talk about abstracts or theoreticals.