OOTS #625 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Assassin89]

Qarr is becoming more of an annoyance to V. Qarr is trying to bargain with V and is failing.

[Adumbration]

You almost got me there. :smallbiggrin:

[Lunaya]

You almost got me there. :smallbiggrin:

Seconded! :smalleek:

That was a close one. Glad to see V hasn't joined the Dark Side yet. :smallamused:

[LuisDantas]

Way to go, V! :)

[Zevox]

Ah, subverting audience expectations. Classic OotS.

Good strip.

Zevox

[neoseph7]

Awesome. I was starting to think V would actually turn to the dark side. Story allowed it to go both ways. I wonder is Qarr will weasle his way into surviving?

[Homunculus]

I was pleasantly surprised by Vs reaction

[Miraqariftsky]

Jolly good show, Giant!

[omgpeachsnapple]

Oh V.

How I love you.

[Aethir]

So much for the V getting Qarr as an ally theory that's floated around at random.

Love to see a little destructive side of V showing itself again.

[werik]

I could still see V end up taking a bargain after this incident, but it is refreshing to see V try to shoot the annoying imp first.

[Ghastly Epigram]

Hmm, well, Vaarsuvius seems pretty adamant in his disagreement, so I am intrigued as to where this will lead. Good strip, anyhow. Can never have too much :vaarsuvius:.

[T-O-E]

Last panel was a surprise. I was sure s/he'd agree to Qaar's demands.

[Epinephrine]

Ah, virgin's blood. Always useful to have a few vials...

I too was convinced that V would be tempted.

[Mauve Shirt]

Go V! Don't do what everyone expected you to do! :smallbiggrin:

[Grunjon]

ROFL! Good one, Giant. The best possible answer to an offer from one such as that! :D

[Nevitan]

Glad I checked for an update before I went off to bed.

Hm, I was expecting V to give in to Qarr alot more easily...

[TheBST]

Oh who didn't see that coming? Subversion are more common than going the regular route nowadays.

I mean how is an imp supposed to turn V towards the 'dark side' anyway? "A deal with demons? That's never gone wrong for anyone!"

Still a damn good comic.

[Estelindis]

Go Vaarsuvius! Brilliant lines from the elf. :smallamused:

[KoboldKiller]

V just keeps looking worse and worse as the series goes on. I wonder if he/she is going to make it to the comics end.

(Off Topic: Can anyone here give me instructions or help on making an avatar? I can't seem to get one to work.:smallfurious:)

[Adeptus]

V is too smart for the imp, and has a healthy dose of self respect.

Just aim better with your next spell mr/mrs wizard.

[JeminiZero]

"glue your lips to their ass."

Haha. I suppose V was clever enough to realize that given the little Imp was intentionally obscuring the nature of his "little project", it was certainly not going to be a pleasant task.

[Mordokai]

Hm, nice to see V hasn't caved in to devil. But it will be even more interesting to see what happens next.

Personally, I can almost feel the switch of scenery again. Perhaps back to Elan and Durkon on boats? Haven't seen the two of them for quite some time now.

[Raz_Fox]

V's last line was absolutely brilliant!

Good show, Giant, jolly good show! :smallbiggrin:

[Enlong]

Go V! Don't do what everyone expected you to do! :smallbiggrin:

So are you expecting hir to not give in, or are you expecting hir to not do what's expected of hir?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

In the Immortal words of Leo DiCaprio:

"Wow! That was fast!"

[Salty]

LOL, I didn't see that coming. But I suspect that Qaar isn't done yet. Great comic, as always.

[HOLEkevin]

I was reading this and thinking, "Well, this is how it starts. Vaarsuvius' descent into evil." And then POW! Score one for the crazy elf!

[TengYt]

Wow, the Giant has been busy destroying theories lately, hasn't he? :smallwink:

[Yendor]

Does this mean V's not a virgin?

I expected V to turn him down.

[TengYt]

V has a spouse, so I'm guessing that V's not a virgin.

[Lira]

I loved this one :smallbiggrin:. I was worried there for a moment, but that last panel was awesome. Go V!

[Llama231]

Whoo! Go V! :vaarsuvius:
We need a smilie for the cracked skin/veinney V.

[LuisDantas]

What would V's project be?

He/she claims that it is time-sensitive, so I don't think it is contacting Haley and Belkar. After all, for good or worse a lot of time passed already.

[Scarlet Knight]

"Spawn of Hell"! Yeah! V's not evil !

By the way, does V know a virgin?

:durkon: no
:roy: no
:belkar: get real
:haley:or :elan: not likely
:vaarsuvius: no
:nale:& :sabine: no, no, a thousand times ,no !
:thog: Hmmmm....

[Kaytara]

Bwhahaha! YES!

Say what you will about V, at least he doesn't discriminate with his zaps. XD

[kamuishirou]

Awesome! So much more elegant than just saying no :).

[tcrudisi]

I'm not one of those fans of the "V will succumb to evil by making a deal with Qarr" theory. I never have been. This strip doesn't change the fact that it could happen. In fact, it makes it more likely.

Qarr should have run away after having his butt handed to him. He didn't. Instead he want to V to make a deal. V allowed him to negotiate. V didn't like the terms, so s/he declined. It might have been with a disintegrate, but don't you think that's how devils/demons would reject deals with each other, anyway? No, it just means that now Qarr must renegotiate -- and quickly. He must either say what it is that he wishes V to do in return, state what he can do that V can't ignore, or lower V's side of the bargain. He's got at least 6 seconds to tempt V. It doesn't have to be enough to get V to accept; it just has to be enough to get V to start negotiating again.

[malakim2099]

What would V's project be?

He/she claims that it is time-sensitive, so I don't think it is contacting Haley and Belkar. After all, for good or worse a lot of time passed already.

It probably still is that project. That's what V was obsessing about before the whole drama started. Even though a lot of strips have passed... it hasn't been that much actual "in strip" time that has gone by.

Of course, now I'm wondering what exactly the project is that the imp needs help on...

A gate?

[Lorin Wavine]

I'm surprised that everyone is surprised that Vaarsuvius decided to use the old "Disintegrate" word again. Still that includes me being one of the ones that didn't really expect it.

I'm curious to where this Imp will actually take the story; be it on the path to Good, Evil, A mystical land made completely out of confectionery or just maybe another strip that ends in an elf shouting Disintegrate at some object/being.

[Rutskarn]

I think pretty much everyone was expecting the "four words" at that point.

[Rad]

That was really funny... I hadn't laughed for a strip for a long time. And it also looks like V has no intention to give in to corruption (unless it's a comfy inn).
The exchange about virgin blood was fantastic :smallbiggrin:

[Deadly]

I can't help but think that the imp actually looks better in green

Oh, and I wonder where that Disintegrate ray may hit... Change of scene coming up?

[SteveMB]

Qarr's salesmanship needs work.

However, if he hangs around (and manages to not get disintegrated), listening to Vaarsuvius' long-winded rambles might eventually give him the hint he needs to set the hook effectively....

[Poit-Narf]

I think a magic missile would have been more effective...

[keldorn]

I don't expect a change of scene what I do expect is...

Message from Durkon arrives that Haley and co are in trouble and need help quick. V can't teleport but there is someone around who can if his dimensional anchor is dispelled and V agrees to do a little favour in return.

[bue52]

V is cool
(s)he gains back abit of my respect

but let's see how the next strip goes, and thanks for the strip giant, the update felt rather fast this time :smallbiggrin:

[Mjoellnir]

I'm absolutely unable to understand this new trend to hate V. V is still a PC, an as good person as someone with neutral alignment can be and a far better friend than Durkon and Elan. He at least tries to get Haley and Roy back and save the world, while Durkon and Elan play babysitters for a paladin-king and his people. They don't need as much help as those who are still in Azure City and as the world will need when Xykon and Recloak succeed. And they wouldn't need any help at all if Hinjo would learn what Belkar has learned recently. He has to play the game!

[Scarblade]

Phew, that was great, I really would have haded to see V fall for such an old and lousy trick.

[derfenrirwolv]

I'm absolutely unable to understand this new trend to hate V. V is still a PC, an as good person as someone with neutral alignment can be and a far better friend than Durkon and Elan.

V broke the "heroes code" by killing a captured villian. People think that means He* has to be evil , forgetting that D&D and the OOTS have much more subtle shades of gray.

[hamishspence]

OOTS, maybe, but D&D tends to be a bit more absolute.

Killing a captured villain, who is expecting a trial, is technically murder. Which, by Fiendish Codex 2, BoED, and BoVD, is an Evil act.

Now a character can do an Evil act and not be evil. But if they keep doing them, they are on the fast-track to Evil.

A lawful character who commits Murder doesn't necessarily become evil, but if they do it more than once (in absence of other Evil acts) their afterlife destination resets to the Nine Hells, according to Fiendish codex 2: Maximum of 8 points-worth of Corrupt acts unatoned-for- any more ansd it resets. And Murder is a 5 point Corrupt act.

This is the most detailed set of WOTC D&D rules on what acts count as evil, and how evil they are.

[Trixie]

Um, s/he was evil long before that :smallsigh:

Look at the 14-exploding-runes-in-a-row incident.

[hamishspence]

that shows a willingness to hurt somebody (belkar) to ensure no risk of romance problems, but it can be interpreted as a flaw in a not so bad charcter.

Roy is a little overeager to use words to hurt, but he's not considered Evil (though the deva does warn him about it)

Add up all V's actions and attitudes and the trend is there, but the point on the trend we are at right now, may still be inside Neutral.

1: Being rude to Elan (understandable) then casting Crushing Despair on Belkar.

2: Threatening the Order with being eaten by a dragon unles they D what V wants (wait there till next day, then dispel the Polymorph) Followed by V hinting that if annoyed, V can disintegrate them as easily as the dragon.

3: Suggesting the order not help rescue the farmer. Then trying to use Explosive Runes on Miko when she refuses to pay for V's contribution.

4: Enthusiasing over Miko's apparent death "she is of course, standing right behind me."

5: Explosive runes sequence on Belkar.

6: suggesting Soul Bind as a solution to dealing with Nale and company (V claimed to be just "representing the halfling's view in this)

7: Refusing to help rescue Lien after she was captured

8: Disintegrating Kubota, then threatening Elan (Elan didn't recognize the threat)

Not all these acts are specifically Evil, but all show a certain callousness.

[j0ecool]

I wasn't all that surprised when V turned him down. V heard his pitch about the virgin blood and asked "how would that help?" When he got a weasel answer, V came to the conclusion that Qarr wouldn't really be able to help him at all.
So he shot at him. "Spawn of Hell," and all that.

[Shadowcaller]

Um, s/he was evil long before that :smallsigh:

Look at the 14-exploding-runes-in-a-row incident.

...
I'm not even going to disscus this:smallannoyed:.

[Janmorel]

Qarr should have run away after having his butt handed to him. He didn't.

Imp must be working on commission.

[Evil DM Mark3]

This thread shows:
A) V is still not evil.
B) V is still not a moron.

Perhaps the most amusing in a while.

[Kaytara]

Um, s/he was evil long before that :smallsigh:

Look at the 14-exploding-runes-in-a-row incident.

After being kissed by a drunken, rovolting, psychopathic murderous halfling.

Seriously. XD That was one part revenge and, according to V's reasoning afterwards, one part pre-emptive self-defense.

[Kish]

I think pretty much everyone was expecting the "four words" at that point.
Not if I'm part of everyone, they weren't. Jeez. I should be grateful "Disintegrate" isn't four words.

Just to head more serious people off, I will now propose that Dis In Te Grate is close enough to four words.

Every time a new comic comes out, some people look for "the four words." When the prophecy doesn't come true in that new comic, those people latch on to any four-word construction Vaarsuvius uses, regardless of whether it was part of a larger sentence or actually spoken to any being at all, and forget all about there being more to the prophecy than "...by speaking four words." And they post on the forum, arguing that those words must be the four words of the prophecy, and we'll see Vaarsuvius get ultimate arcane power any strip now! Vaarsuvius is a morally ambiguous character, as well as an extremely verbose one, and so effectively anything s/he says can be argued as "for the wrong reasons," and most of his/her sentences have at least four words, so there's plentiful fodder for this.

[ericgrau]

I hate it when they call back. :smallbiggrin:

Aaaaand the alignment debates continue. If she kills him she's evil, if he doesn't kill him, he's evil. What ever happened to character depth? Since when does everyone in these forums suddenly love and cling to the alignment system right to the letter? V is traumatized both morally and in terms of self-worth over his failure to save Azure city and her party. He has responded to this in a psychologically unhealthy manner, causing her to push away friends and disregard other people and events as he becomes overly obsessive in her endeavors. There now, was that really so hard?

[frankwolftown]

First rule when making a deal with the Devil Qarr. Don't.
Unless Qarr can give V something she/he really wants this guy has no chance. What does she really want?

A way to face down Xykon?

A way to contact Haley?

More power?

[TengYt]

V killing Qarr wouldn't be evil, as he's a hellspawn who is clearly evil and has summoned a larger demon in the past.

[Kaytara]

What ever happened to character depth? Since when does everyone in these forums suddenly love and cling to the alignment system right to the letter? V is traumatized both morally and in terms of self-worth over his failure to save Azure city and her party. He has responded to this in a psychologically unhealthy manner, causing her to push away friends and disregard other people and events as he becomes overly obsessive in her endeavors. There now, was that really so hard?

Quoted for truth.


2: Threatening the Order with being eaten by a dragon unles they D what V wants (wait there till next day, then dispel the Polymorph) Followed by V hinting that if annoyed, V can disintegrate them as easily as the dragon.


IMO, though, that is somewhat justified. Roy's attitude was essentially "Sure, we would've gotten around to turning you back eventually. Whatever." It's understandable to be more than slightly incensed at that kind of thinking. Imagine if Durkon or V had just said to Roylette "Oh, right, we'll get around to breaking the curse eventually." Only V's situation was worse, as Vaarsuvius was essentially helpless and at highly reduced hitpoints while polymorphed, while Roy's condition did not impact his stats.

[elonin]

OOTS, maybe, but D&D tends to be a bit more absolute.

Killing a captured villain, who is expecting a trial, is technically murder. Which, by Fiendish Codex 2, BoED, and BoVD, is an Evil act.

Now a character can do an Evil act and not be evil. But if they keep doing them, they are on the fast-track to Evil.

A lawful character who commits Murder doesn't necessarily become evil, but if they do it more than once (in absence of other Evil acts) their afterlife destination resets to the Nine Hells, according to Fiendish codex 2: Maximum of 8 points-worth of Corrupt acts unatoned-for- any more ansd it resets. And Murder is a 5 point Corrupt act.

This is the most detailed set of WOTC D&D rules on what acts count as evil, and how evil they are.


Don't forget that when she killed Kubota he was in the act of flaunting the law. That act makes her chaotic not evil. Also I guess I'm the only one who saw Qarr as being a possible familiar for V.

[hamishspence]

Improved Familar is not all that good a feat. Would V really get much out of an imp familiar? In any case, the feat gives you standard imp- Qaar seems a bit more powerful- maybe an advanced imp or an imp with class levels.

as for Chaotic- no book gives definition of Chaotic acts, though Lawful, Evil, and Good do get some coverage. Flouting the law can be Chaotic, but by BoED even Lawful good Characters can do it if the law is bad and the cause just. Complete Scoundrel- also has LG characters who "aren't above breaking laws that get in the way."

Murder, while not defined rigorously, is simply stated as evil, which would suggest that any killing that would qualify as a Murder is evil. but how to define it? Simplest way is to ask "if act was done in real-world setting, would it be murder?"

Killing in self-defense, no. Killing unarmed prisoner on the way to face trial- sounds like a murder to me.

[Squall83]

Yay, I got to read 2 comics in a day (+ 1 Erfworld)! ^^ Thanks, Giant!

Too bad V didn't cast anything with broader reach but I guess it was for the sake of the punchline. But Bugsbys Hand + shocking grasp also would've been nice.:smallbiggrin: Can you enchant Bigbys hand with a shocking grasp in real D&D? I guess not if I read the rules correctly, but maybe Bugsbys hand can.
Or dominate monster + walk a few steps away + fireball. ^^

[Selene]

That was even funnier than the last one. Reminds me of when Spike killed the Annoying One. :smallbiggrin:

[Waspinator]

Glad to see that V is smart enough to realize a "deal with a devil" is never a good thing.

[ElvenDeathMetal]

The 'glue your lips to their ass' line was priceless.

I'm still laughing about that.

Also, go V! Disintegrate is such a wonderfully useful negotiating tool.

[Rakim Avishot]

Go V! Don't do what everyone expected you to do! :smallbiggrin:

I actually expected that to happen, except maybe the disintegrate exactly. I knew that she would turn down Qarr, but merely because it would be inefficient for him to join with him. By the way, did anyone else notice that V decided against virgin blood, not because it goes against her principles, but because it would be an inefficiency for him to get it? Just throwing it out there that if it would yield results, and there was a virgin to sacrifice, it wouldn't be out of character for V to do the deed..... :smallbiggrin:

[AyuVince]

V is resilient so far... but so is the imp. I'm afraid Qarr will annoy hir until ze gives in and agrees to a temporary partnership. Then it's only a question of who outsmarts whom. After all, Qarr isn't the one who's slowly losing his mind.

Btw: Solving problems with Disintegrate? Yes please. :smallwink:

[David Argall]

Ah, virgin's blood. Always useful to have a few vials...

The trouble is getting the stuff. You ask a boy and he will tell you he is not a virgin [and the unicorn following him is a horse with a serious pimple problem.] You ask a girl and she will say yes [but what is she doing checking out birth control products?]

[Kaytara]

I actually expected that to happen, except maybe the disintegrate exactly. I knew that she would turn down Qarr, but merely because it would be inefficient for him to join with him. By the way, did anyone else notice that V decided against virgin blood, not because it goes against her principles, but because it would be an inefficiency for him to get it? Just throwing it out there that if it would yield results, and there was a virgin to sacrifice, it wouldn't be out of character for V to do the deed..... :smallbiggrin:

Hey, now, nobody's talking about sacrificing the virgin. Just a few drops of blood will do. XD

No, I'm serious. Vaarsuvius may consider it depraved and reprehensible but he's desperate enough to realize that for all its symbolic meaning, taking a blood sample from a virgin really isn't that big a deal if it helps him finally contact Haley.


The trouble is getting the stuff. You ask a boy and he will tell you he is not a virgin [and the unicorn following him is a horse with a serious pimple problem.] You ask a girl and she will say yes [but what is she doing checking out birth control products?]

Why is that a problem? XD I'm not sure I like the fact that this has occurred to me, but no one said it has to be an adult virgin. Take a seven year old child and they're pretty much guaranteed to be a virgin.

[JT Jag]

I wouldn't entirely count Qarr out yet. If he knows enough about Vaar, he could stop him short just like that by saying "I know how you can find your friends!".

[hamishspence]

Sounds like a homebrew spell component.

Humanoid blood apparently costs 3 copper pieces per vial, but there is no specific Virgin blood category. (and, unlike most of the other components in BoVD, nothing is gained by using it- its only there for spells that require some blood as a component.)

Celestial blood and unicorn blood are components (assumed to be donated willingly) in BoED.

Celestial, Devil, and Demon Blood also exist as minor artifacts in BoVD.

[Squall83]

@Kaytara: I bet Miko was an adult virgin. :smallwink:

[Rakim Avishot]

Hey, now, nobody's talking about sacrificing the virgin. Just a few drops of blood will do. XD

The really good quality virgin's blood comes from a ritually sacrificed virgin. It actually enhances the properties of the blood. Also, what Qarr said is true about it being an all purpose supplicant to all spells and incantations, so it would be more efficient to get a whole virgin's worth of blood. Also, you don't want to end up in the middle of a summoning and find out you're out of VB. (I've been down that road before, and it ended up yielding more VB than I used, since ,as of yet, I am "inexperienced" :smalltongue:)

[SteveMB]

The really good quality virgin's blood comes from a ritually sacrificed virgin. It actually enhances the properties of the blood. Also, what Qarr said is true about it being an all purpose supplicant to all spells and incantations, so it would be more efficient to get a whole virgin's worth of blood. Also, you don't want to end up in the middle of a summoning and find out you're out of VB. (I've been down that road before, and it ended up yielding more VB than I used, since, as of yet, I am "inexperienced" :smalltongue:)

Reminds me of a song I'd heard about an evil prince trying to sacrifice a virgin to buy a favor from a demon. The catch was that royal virgin blood was even more desirable to demons than the regular kind, and the prince had been, shall we say, focused on demonology to the exclusion of less intellectual pursuits.

[Rotipher]

By the way, does V know a virgin?

The imp didn't specify what species of virgin, so V's familiar might well qualify. It's only existed for about five minutes total since the strip began, so it probably hasn't had time to meet any attractive ravens of the opposite gender.... :smallwink:

Heh. It just occurred to me that we don't know the gender of V's raven, either!

[Lira]

Heh. It just occurred to me that we don't know the gender of V's raven, either!V uses "he" when referring to the raven, so it's probably male. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0155.html)

[bluedolphin359]

I was reading this and thinking, "Well, this is how it starts. Vaarsuvius' descent into evil." And then POW! Score one for the crazy elf!

Yea, I was really surprised.


I don't expect a change of scene what I do expect is...

Message from Durkon arrives that Haley and co are in trouble and need help quick. V can't teleport but there is someone around who can if his dimensional anchor is dispelled and V agrees to do a little favour in return.

That's a really good theory.

[factotum]

I like keldorn's theory as well--if there's anything that would lead V to make a deal with the Devil (literally, in this case :smallsmile:) then it's knowing he can't get to Haley without the help of someone who can cast Teleport. However, I seriously doubt Durkon and Elan would go along with said deal, so I suspect it isn't going to be from them he finds out.

[RosesOnConcrete]

I ♥ V. That is all.

Also, the "glue your lips to their ass" line is pretty damn sweet.

[multilis]

M was offered a similar deal as V by an evil outsider and gave a similar reaction.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html

[Gloverboy]

Virgins blood is like table salt: you can't go wrong with sprinkling a little here or there, but if you make a habit of it, you may get heart disease.

By the way, whoever claimed the virgin had to be female? I mean, male virgins, especially in a DnD universe, probably more common than table salt!

I figure it's still possible for Quarr to corrupt V. But I'm hoping, man oh man I'm hoping that V pulls through.

I really want to see the team get back together.

[Zack Norglad]

V's path is unclear. I have no prediction for his future alignment...
Nice comic... Personally I would like a comic that moves the story a bit.

[ZerglingOne]

Qarr's biggest mistake: Not offering V to make the shiny ones.

[Squall83]

The imp didn't specify what species of virgin, so V's familiar might well qualify. It's only existed for about five minutes total since the strip began, so it probably hasn't had time to meet any attractive ravens of the opposite gender.... :smallwink:

Heh. It just occurred to me that we don't know the gender of V's raven, either!

Well, maybe that raven is doing some stuff without us knowing that could lead to him not being a virgin anymore. I mean just look here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

[Blaznak]

The question has to be asked:
Is Virgin Blood anything like Virgin Olive Oil? Can you have Extra Virgin Blood?
Just asking...

[tribble]

Qarr's biggest mistake: Not offering V to make the shiny ones.

What?:smallconfused:

[CelebrenIthil]

Well well there is sure a lot of talk about V being Evil or not...

According to my observations, Vaarsuvius' precise alignment appears to be Neutral/Pissed Off.
:smallbiggrin:

Your pick. XD

[Linkavitch]

Yea! I like V again! And all the people who said that V was going to turn with the imp, HA!!!(though there always is the next comic, and the one after that, until we switch characters again.)

[Tobimaro]

Well, I'll hold judgment on V's wants until the next comic. That imp just might have a high enough modifier on its Diplomacy score (kissing ass might qualify as a +2 circumstance modifier to that) that it might be able to save its hide from V's wrath.

I hope not, but we will just have to wait and see.

As always, great comic, Giant! :smallcool:

[Shadowbane]

I'm very interested to see what's happening next. A evil V does not make me happy.

[Roc Ness]

DISINTEGRATE!!!

Classic

[Assassin89]

There is a possibility that if Qarr is disintegrated, imp dust could be used as a means for power.

[Kish]

What?:smallconfused:
Baldur's Gate II reference.

[Ellen]

"My methodology has been quite exhaustive."

Qarr looks at quite exhausted V.

"Yeah, uh, I can see that."

Snicker.

[Lord Seth]

Yet again, when it seems the story is finally getting somewhere, we cut somewhere else to fill up time.

I know I'm being extremely snarky, but it keeps doing this. Progress seems to be made, and then we have to sit through what someone else is doing.

[CelebrenIthil]

Baldur's Gate II reference.

ZOMG I didn't catch the reference but you just reminded me!
"Cespenar is a good butler, oh yes!"

Damn that Imp was awesome! If Quarr shows up to be anything like him then I'd love to see him tag along with V, but that highly unlikely- just by the way he talks (and the eeevil speech bubble) he's nowhere as adorable (and as gently annoying). :3
He doesn't seem to be that good at making the shiny ones either, now the issue is in. Never been asked virgin's blood for making them before.
Hmm... *frowns*

[Raenir Salazar]

its the Pact Insidious!

Now I haven't fully in detail studied Tyrants of Hells yet but assuming V is at least 15th level. (to have 3 lvl 7 spell slots, im not sure but which Bigbe she used) could be 8000 xp reward from a Faustian Pact, (Reward rating 7 under the asusmption her soul is really really in demand) or/and Additional Feat (Reward Rating (RW) 4), Additional Spell Slot (3), 1 point ability score increase (5).

I predict though they'll go through the Pact Certain, Qaar upon understanding her desire to find/contact/rescue Haily will offer just that, all the Arcane power to become like Raistlin Majere in exchange for her soul.

V is probably too cunning to fall for the Pact Insidious as currently proposed by Qaar.

[Forealms]

I think it is fairly safe (emphasis on "fairly") to assume V hasn't gone the way of Anakin yet.

Also, emphasis on "yet".

[ref]

Disintegrate Express. Don't leave home without it.

[sum1won]

its the Pact Insidious!

Now I haven't fully in detail studied Tyrants of Hells yet but assuming V is at least 15th level. (to have 3 lvl 7 spell slots, im not sure but which Bigbe she used) could be 8000 xp reward from a Faustian Pact, (Reward rating 7 under the asusmption her soul is really really in demand) or/and Additional Feat (Reward Rating (RW) 4), Additional Spell Slot (3), 1 point ability score increase (5).

I predict though they'll go through the Pact Certain, Qaar upon understanding her desire to find/contact/rescue Haily will offer just that, all the Arcane power to become like Raistlin Majere in exchange for her soul.

V is probably too cunning to fall for the Pact Insidious as currently proposed by Qaar.

Was it his soul he gave up? I always thought that it was his life/vitality/body that Raistlin gave up, rather than his soul.

[Mordae]

I think it's unlikely that our storyteller has brought us here to witness nothing more than an irritating invitation from an insidious imp. I'm not a prophecy bandwagon jumper, but Qarr is a creature that might be able to fit into "saying the right four words to the right being at the right time". It's the "for all the wrong reasons" part that I haven't formulated a way to fit yet, since V seems to be focused on the right reasons--at least through #625.

[ArsenalHats]

In 4th Edition D&D, Disintegrate is a 19th level spell. While the Giant can easily make disintegrate a -99th level spell if he wanted to, you could say that the D&D requirements could be indicative of what level V is.

Epic level V equals DOOM!:smallfurious:

[Vale]

Was it his soul he gave up? I always thought that it was his life/vitality/body that Raistlin gave up, rather than his soul.

It's been a long time since I read any of the Krynn stuff, but here's how I recall things going down:
I recall when Raistlin took his Test in the Tower of Sorcery at Wayreth, they put him up against something Scary(think it was a Dark Elf actually). Then Fistandantilus's disembodied spirit makes a deal with Raistlin. He'll provide him with power and in exchange, he gets to live in Raistlin's body. He accepts, he gets poor health(less life force now, as you said), also his famous golden skin, which is one of the things helps him in the test(makes him extra resistant to magical fire).

It's afer he's passed the test that Par-Salian curses him with those hourglass eyes, to make him see how time affects everything he looks at(people age, trees wither, etc...) to hopefully make him more compassionate.
We all know how well that turned out.


Poor Raistlin :(

[Zevox]

assuming V is at least 15th level. (to have 3 lvl 7 spell slots, im not sure but which Bigbe she used)
That's an unfounded assumption. When has she used more than 1 7th-level spell in any given day? We've seen Prismatic Spray back against the giant devil, and Bigby's Grasping Hand vs Quarr just recently, and that's it. And in any event, V is an Evoker, so she gets a bonus Evocation spell slot at each level, which can be used on Bigby's Grasping Hand. To be able to do what we've seen her do, V need not be higher than 13th level.

Also, don't put too much stock in those Fiendish Codex pact rules. The Giant doesn't even follow the core rules all the time, the odds that he'll actually incorporate something out of a splatbook into the comic are pretty slim. If V makes a deal with Quarr, it'll just follow whatever sort of terms he has the two agree to.


In 4th Edition D&D, Disintegrate is a 19th level spell.
In case you missed it, OotS still operates on 3.5 D&D rules, and the Giant has no intention to switch (check the news post archives). 4th edition rules mean nothing here.

Zevox

[Ceric]

Virgins blood is like table salt: you can't go wrong with sprinkling a little here or there, but if you make a habit of it, you may get heart disease.

May I sig this?

Anyways, awesome strip. I think that V is carefully avoiding 4-word phrases. :smallwink:

[Raenir Salazar]

Was it his soul he gave up? I always thought that it was his life/vitality/body that Raistlin gave up, rather than his soul.

As mentioned above no Raistlin never gave up his soul for power, although it was a possibility if Fistandantilus had succeeded against Raistlin's will save :)

V however doesn't have an demilich supporting her from behind the scenes, or a dragonorb to give secrets and Tiamat doesn't seem interested in conquering their world.

So the quick path to power may only lead in a Faustian Pact unfortunately. I always prefered devouring the soul of a ancient archmage to be the best route.

[Taekwondodo]

Phew... thought V was going to take him up on his offer there, last panel brill.:smallbiggrin:

[Psychomancer]

Quarr's not done yet. I think all he has to do is make V see that the only logical path to more power quickly is a deal with the devil...er, Imp. Once he can wrangle that, V will do whatever Quarr wants.

The real flaw in V's thinking is this: S/he truly believes that the answers to all of life's problems lie in magical power. And while V's intentions may be good, Quarr also knows where good intentions lead- right to his doorstep, rather figuratively.

[H. Zee]

Out of all the ways to respond to temptation, magical violence is probably the best.

[Avilan the Grey]

Ah... You gotta love V...!

As for alignment: My first question is "why is that relevant".
My second question is "I assume it's not the same people that believes that V is Evil that believes that Belkar is Neutral, because that would be really weird." :smallbiggrin:

[Weimann]

The question has to be asked:
Is Virgin Blood anything like Virgin Olive Oil? Can you have Extra Virgin Blood?
Just asking...Hm. Interesting question.

Supposedly by never having spanked the monkey either?

Just a theory.
Anyways, awesome strip. I think that V is carefully avoiding 4-word phrases.I would assume s/he'd never go below 20 words, if it was up to her. :smallbiggrin:

[Ramidel]

Two words: Four Words.

...I just wanted an excuse to say that.

[Anonymous Man]

I was surprised by this, not just because V refused, but also because I thought that Quar would not even bother bargaining with V.

[Eldariel]

4th edition rules mean nothing here.

Zevox

Ah yes, the spoiled boy of the rich family trying to live off the family earnings while making his own career. Not the best place to be at.


Also, really surprised that Disintegrate missed. Also really surprised V took so long to fire it.

[Rotipher]

Also, really surprised that Disintegrate missed. Also really surprised V took so long to fire it.


V probably waited that long, because ve needed to be certain the imp wasn't lying to vir about its reasons for being on the island. It could, for instance, have been a hostile arcanist's familiar, in which case V needed to know about such a potential threat. However, trying to corrupt vir probably isn't the sort of thing that a familiar to a rival mage would've been at liberty to do.

As for missing vir target, you try hitting a Tiny critter at range when you haven't slept/tranced in months. :smallwink:

[daggaz]

actually thats what bothered me most, V's new tactic at killing Quarr.

He already knows Bugsby's (whew I almost got hit with the wizard's spooooky lawyers) Grasping Hand is a highly effective and previously successful method of controlling the imp, due to his crappy grapple modifier.

Why does he now try to Disintegrate him? Seems inefficient to change tactics like that. He should grapple him and THEN disintegrate him. Problem solved.

[Golden-Esque]

I guess Quarr won't be getting whatever prize (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html)there is to be gotten for turning an Elven Wizard protagonist into a recurring villain.

[Zevox]

actually thats what bothered me most, V's new tactic at killing Quarr.

He already knows Bugsby's (whew I almost got hit with the wizard's spooooky lawyers) Grasping Hand is a highly effective and previously successful method of controlling the imp, due to his crappy grapple modifier.

Why does he now try to Disintegrate him? Seems inefficient to change tactics like that. He should grapple him and THEN disintegrate him. Problem solved.
That relies on her having another Bigby's Grasping Hand prepared, though. If she's 13th or 14th level, as she seems to be, she only has 1 or 2 spell slots at that level, plus her bonus one for being an Evoker. If she's 13th level, she probably prepared something else in her one other slot (like the Prismatic Spray we saw her beat that giant devil with earlier). If 14th, it still wouldn't be surprising if she prepared only one Grasping Hand, and spent her other two slots on different spells, although in that case there is an off chance she might prepare two Hands due to how useful they are.

And anyway, Disintegrate should be a pretty reliable spell against someone like Quarr. All she needs to do is hit his touch AC, which is fairly low, and have him fail a fortitude save, which is again going to be low, even if he has levels as a Sorcerer the way he claimed. She just got unlucky on the first shot's attack roll.

Zevox

[BillyJimBoBob]

On V's alignment:

V is Lawful Practical. Lawful Neutral, if you insist on a D&D label. Almost every action he (not going to use anything like himer, ver, or whatever) takes shows that clearly.

Explosive Runes on Belkar: Fastest and easiest (i.e. most practical) means to move V from the Lust column to the Hate column.

Threaten party with Dragon? Most practical way to goal of having the party view dispelling the polymorph as a priority.

Refusing to help rescue Lein? Lein didn't need Vs assistance, there were plenty of eager heroes on the way already.

Disintegrating Kabuto? Having overheard Kaboto's plan to drag his capture into yet another interminable mock trial, this was a very practical response.

Even in this strip: "That is reprehensible, depraved, and most importantly highly impractical given our current location." (my bolds)

V clearly recognizes good and evil. But chooses the side of practicality. It is usually far more practical to be good, as that keeps a pile of PC bounty hunters from hounding you to the ends of the earth, and generally makes for a more easy going social experience overall. But the occasional evil deed can and will be considered in the name of practicality.


Every time a new comic comes out, some people look for "the four words." When the prophecy doesn't come true in that new comic, those people latch on to any four-word construction Vaarsuvius uses, regardless of whether it was part of a larger sentence or actually spoken to any being at all, and forget all about there being more to the prophecy than "...by speaking four words." And they post on the forum, arguing that those words must be the four words of the prophecy, and we'll see Vaarsuvius get ultimate arcane power any strip now! Vaarsuvius is a morally ambiguous character, as well as an extremely verbose one, and so effectively anything s/he says can be argued as "for the wrong reasons," and most of his/her sentences have at least four words, so there's plentiful fodder for this.
Agreed. It's very amusing to me to see the "OMG, 4 words!" posts after almost any panel with V. Were V to speak a 10 word sentence there would be 7 opportunities for people to latch onto any given 4 in a row and proclaim that these must be the "4 words" of the prophecy. But unless we see V being offered 10 volumes of the Book of Gain a Level and reply with "Thank you very much!" there's little chance of "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." ever applying. And even that doesn't necessarily include the elements of wrong reason, wrong person.


Aaaaand the alignment debates continue. If she kills him she's evil, if he doesn't kill him, he's evil. What ever happened to character depth?Seriously. He could kill the Imp simply to end the annoyance and this is neither a good nor an evil act. It's neutral with a hint of good, since this hypothetical would be purely for Vs own convenience but rids the world of some evil. Or he could make a bargain with the Imp and still it's neither necessarily good nor evil, since the Imp might be tricked by V into doing some good, but the jury would need to remain out until the bargain was fulfilled.


Murder, while not defined rigorously, is simply stated as evil, which would suggest that any killing that would qualify as a Murder is evil. but how to define it? Simplest way is to ask "if act was done in real-world setting, would it be murder?"Simplest, but not the best. The D&D alignment system takes into account a lot of heroic elements without worrying about their deeper moral meanings. The old "Do you kill the women and children now that all the adult male orcs are dead?" conundrum is a poor one, because by today's morals this would be wrong. But by today's morals killing the orcs was wrong also. By today's morals the UN needs to pass a resolution calling for a halt to the violence while several diplomatic envoys from third party nations try to arrive at a peace accord. Not happening in any book of heroic fantasy I've ever read, and not happening in any D&D game I've ever played in. It's frontier justice, and the party can choose to kill the women and children or not and will still be acting in accordance with frontier justice. And in D&D terms, neither option is either good or evil.


I think that V is carefully avoiding 4-word phrases.V knows what the prophesy is, and V is very intelligent. If you think about it, and if V wasn't so Lawful Practical, V might try to bring about the prophesy by speaking at length to many "wrong persons". Call it a crap shoot, but V knows that logic services drama like a 2 copper whore. :smalltongue:

[Traker]

I think that the "Spawn of Hell" my die next round.

[Supermagle]

Qarr is rapidly depleting V's daily allotment of spells - now he/she will have to rest up again :-)

[Dilvish]

The question has to be asked:
Is Virgin Blood anything like Virgin Olive Oil? Can you have Extra Virgin Blood?
Just asking...

The hard part is determining if the Olive Oil is actually of the grade given. I imagine determining Virgin Blood to be at least as difficult.

From Proposed United States Standards for Grades of Olive Oil and Olive Pomace Oil, January 15, 2008, DRAFT - this just happens to be sitting on a corner of my desk.

"Olive oils are graded based on the level of free acidity and taste. The hierarchy for grades is extra-virgin olive oil, virgin olive oil, ordinary virgin olive oil, olive oil, refined olive oil,, and lampante virgin olive oil..."

"...virgin olive oil which has...and meets the additional requirements as outlined in Table 1 and paragraph 52.1539 of this subpart..."

Table 1 and paragraphy 52.1539 have 25 different criteria. The testing takes a couple of weeks and costs money.

Would V be proud of me for posting this? :)

dilvish
have lab coat, will travel

[hamishspence]

Adventurers are like peacekeepers- they are entitled to use force against aggressors (orc raiding parties, for example)

They are not entitled to use force against non-combatants, when the non-combatants are not directly threatening them (and thus forfeiting their non-combatant status)

Yes, in early editions of D&D, one could make a case that slaughtering orc women and children is OK after their soldiers have been defeated. But this is only valid for very early editions, possibly. BoED makes it clear that adventurers who are serious about being Good are not allowed to use force against noncombatants, even evil ones.

Killing beings unable to put up a fight is not exactly heroic.
Or frontier justice, really. Outlaw who flees with his family, including younglings. Is hunted down. All ok. Killing the youngsters who haven't really done anything, only benefitted from the outlaw's crimes? Not very just.

[Darius Midnite]

Hax! And here I thought we would have Vas going all evil with his all new familiar. What a jib...

[Gilmiril]

Well, maybe that raven is doing some stuff without us knowing that could lead to him not being a virgin anymore. I mean just look here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

In your linked strip, the raven asks something to which the oracle answers, "Try ginkgo bilboa." That herb is purported to improve one's memory, and given the running gag that magic-users in D&D forget about their familiars until they need them, the raven clearly asked how he can get V to remember him more often. I don't see how that translates into "doing some stuff. . .that could lead to him not being a virgin anymore."

But the raven later leaves V, so he could be up to anything (I'll leave it for others to find the strip where that happens).

[LordSintax]

huh. I wonder if we're advancing inexorably towards "the right four words at the right time for all the wrong reasons?"

[Gilmiril]

That was really funny... I hadn't laughed for a strip for a long time.

I guess that's a matter of taste. I was laughing in the previous strip already what with V's magically "flipping the bird" in the final panel.

[Gilmiril]

huh. I wonder if we're advancing inexorably towards "the right four words at the right time for all the wrong reasons?"

Yes; every strip brings us one strip closer to "the right four words at the right time for all the wrong reasons." :smallwink:

[Jimorian]

I think Qarr really lost V at "a few weeks" for whatever his project is. V knows that getting in contact with Haley is only step one in a long rest of the adventure to stop Xykon from seizing one of the gates. So even a few days in exchange for Qarr's help, even if useful, is too much to ask.

[Daibhid C]

What everyone else said: Go, V! Crazy, yes; evil, no!

[Raenir Salazar]

Simplest, but not the best. The D&D alignment system takes into account a lot of heroic elements without worrying about their deeper moral meanings. The old "Do you kill the women and children now that all the adult male orcs are dead?" conundrum is a poor one, because by today's morals this would be wrong. But by today's morals killing the orcs was wrong also. By today's morals the UN needs to pass a resolution calling for a halt to the violence while several diplomatic envoys from third party nations try to arrive at a peace accord. Not happening in any book of heroic fantasy I've ever read, and not happening in any D&D game I've ever played in. It's frontier justice, and the party can choose to kill the women and children or not and will still be acting in accordance with frontier justice. And in D&D terms, neither option is either good or evil.

Dude, read Transitions trilogy by RA Salvatore, this is almost exactly what happens with Silverymoon being the third party between Obould and Mithral Halls :D

[dogmac]

Qarr is right. Why NOT sprinkle some virgin's blood everywhere?

(oh and Go V!)

[pendell]

*chuckle*

Good answer, V. But what a terrible to-hit roll that was.


But the temptation is not over yet. In old stories the devil tempts three times, and so far that's only twice.


Some people believe V is evil or neutral based on his listing of reasons why he won't use virgin's blood, rating 'practical' above 'reprehensible' et al. I do not.

Reason: Scientists have, from time to time, had to do some reprehensible things in order to. say, invent vaccines. Back then, people didn't donate their bodies to science, so if scientists wanted to study them they had to dig them up in the dead of night. And they came up with things like injecting cow's blood into human veins (early vaccine) that set normal society atwitter.

A lot of time advancing science has meant -- for the greater good -- doing things to animals, or to dead bodies, or to people, that were absolutely abhorrent. Yet they needed to be done, and the result is that we have medicines and surgery and a hundred other techniques that wouldn't have been possible if scientists were not willing to defy the conventional morality of the time.

V is not being evil or even neutral when he lists his priorities in that manner. Ze is simply being a scientist, one concerned with practical results and willing to get zir hands dirty if that is necessary to achieve good, as opposed to being a Celia, who is so busy polishing her halo that she won't break her principles even to save a good person from death.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[derfenrirwolv]

OOTS, maybe, but D&D tends to be a bit more absolute.

No, it isn't. thats why there are three alignments in between good and evil.



Killing a captured villain, who is expecting a trial, is technically murder. Which, by Fiendish Codex 2, BoED, and BoVD, is an Evil act.

Murder is a matter of law, not good or evil.

PLEASE don't say that the BOED says this situation is evil.

1) Killing a captured villian is murder----> 2) the the feindish codex says its evil, 3) therefore it is.

Number 1 is your personal intepretation, not the books. Without that, the rest of the argument doesn't follow.

Would it be evil to shoot a villian who surrendered and then tried to slip out of their bonds? How about a murderer who surrendered but is now making a jail break? They obviously surrendered in bad faith and did not intend to actualy be punished.

What Kubota was trying to do is nothing more than a legal jailbreak. He did something, and he was going to avoid paying for it. Instead of an escape artist check or key hidden in places you don't want to think about, he had a bluff check.

[Raenir Salazar]

just occured to me, whats wrong with saying Bigby's Etc? It was directly mentioned in Dragonlance noval "Soulforge", I'm not sure but the Dragonlance setting I think is not published by TSR or Wizards of the Coast.

[Kaytara]

V is not being evil or even neutral when he lists his priorities in that manner. Ze is simply being a scientist, one concerned with practical results and willing to get zir hands dirty if that is necessary to achieve good, as opposed to being a Celia, who is so busy polishing her halo that she won't break her principles even to save a good person from death.


I agree with your reasoning. Another possible reason is that the impracticality of the suggestion was the main reason why the suggestion wasn't helpful, and thus why Qarr wasn't helpful, which is a fact he was trying to prove at the time. Hence, in naming that reason, Vaarsuvius pointed out his doubt in the quality of Qarr's assistance.

[BriarHobbit]

A fun episode. The imp is learning that temptation is not always easy.

After all, the terms of the deal were not to V's benefit. The imp provides uncertain quality aid for V's latest scry attempt, which might just work the next time that V tries it. In return, the imp gets V to work on an unspecified something that will take a decent block of time. This is not a good deal, although Celia might be tempted.

[hamishspence]

Champions of Valor points out killing captured villain is generally against the laws of typical civilized areas.

BoED is just the only source that discusses the whole issue of captured enemies, and killing them, in the absence of an execution, is phrased as "out of the question"

BoVD and Fiendish Codex 2 point out certain acts are absolute, not relative. its context, not motive, or the alignment of the target, that determines whether a killing is murder or not.

Now once the villain ceased to be captured by making a partial jailbreak, other factors would come into play again. But until Kubota has actually reached trial (or escaped from bonds) he's Captured.

[Gilmiril]

just occured to me, whats wrong with saying Bigby's Etc? It was directly mentioned in Dragonlance noval "Soulforge", I'm not sure but the Dragonlance setting I think is not published by TSR or Wizards of the Coast.


It's a copyright issue. WotC expressly defines it as "Product Identity" in their Open Gaming License:


The following items are designated Product Identity, as defined in Section 1(e) of the Open Game License Version 1.0a, and are subject to the conditions set forth in Section 7 of the OGL, and are not Open Content: Dungeons & Dragons, D&D, Player’s Handbook, Dungeon Master, Monster Manual, d20 System, Wizards of the Coast, d20 (when used as a trademark), Forgotten Realms, Faerûn, proper names (including those used in the names of spells or items), places, [. . .]
-excerpted from the v3.5 System Reference Documents (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) (emphasis mine); I haven't checked, but I'm sure that v4 would be similar.

Therefore, WotC has clearly stated that names such as Bigby are off limits, so Rich cannot use it without first obtaining a license.

[sentinel001]

Do you wanna spoiler? 331 what did he said to V.. that's not my idea but the one who found it out won't come so i wrote it :-).. how many times did V used disintegrate?