V above 10th level!

[Egiam]

So, yeah. Looks like those of you who are trying to write V's stats are in luck.

[[TS] Shadow]

It's already been proven that V's above level 10. You're a little late on the uptake, there.

[factotum]

In fact, it's been pretty categorically proven that V was level 13 at the time of the Battle of Azure City--he cast Mass Enlarge Person on 13 soldiers. If he'd been higher level than 13 he would presumably have used more soldiers--he had plenty of Heroism potions, after all.

[Kaytara]

Also, you really should have posted this in the Geekery thread, instead. Because that's where V's stats are actually being written.

[Milanius]

I'm betting that V's well above 19th level by now :smallyuk:

[Flickerdart]

I'm betting that V's well above 19th level by now :smallyuk:
Nope, or else he'd have been making Epic spells that punch through Cloister.

In fact, it's been pretty categorically proven that V was level 13 at the time of the Battle of Azure City--he cast Mass Enlarge Person on 13 soldiers. If he'd been higher level than 13 he would presumably have used more soldiers--he had plenty of Heroism potions, after all.
Nope, because he specifically denied reinforcements - there just wouldn't be enough room.

[Kurald Galain]

Shadow;5696328']It's already been proven that V's above level 10. You're a little late on the uptake, there.

The fact that he regularly uses spells of higher than 5th level (such as, oh say disintegrate) should have been a clue :smallbiggrin:

[Assassin89]

The fact that he regularly uses spells of higher than 5th level (such as, oh say disintegrate) should have been a clue :smallbiggrin:

And if we remember that Black dragon, V was at least 12th level because disintegrate was used twice.

[Xesirin]

Nope, or else he'd have been making Epic spells that punch through Cloister.

I'm reasonably sure that he doesn't yet know that cloister is the spell blocking his/her efforts at locating haley. I'm not imtimately familiar with the rules and spells of D&D, but if I had to take a guess, there's probably a non-epic spell that is only effective on cloister that he hasn't thought of because of said indication. :smallconfused:

I dunno, as a means of creating balance in a game, there's a technique (I can't remember the name of it) where you write counters to specific abilities. These counters are easier to learn and use, but are only effective against their respective spell. That said, I find it likely that there's something out there that he could use.

[JT Jag]

And if we remember that Black dragon, V was at least 12th level because disintegrate was used twice.I actually think that the Giant might have bent the rules in that particular case. Personally I think that one of the reasons that Roy was so freaked out was because Vaar SHOULDN'T have been capable of the two disintegrates.

I think V was 10 or 11, maybe 12, at the black dragon fight.

[Kish]

I think V was 10 or 11, maybe 12, at the black dragon fight.
:smallconfused: Uh, why?

[Assassin89]

:smallconfused: Uh, why?

Disintegrate is a 6th level spell, meaning that V would have to be at those levels in order to cast that spell.

[Zevox]

I'm reasonably sure that he doesn't yet know that cloister is the spell blocking his/her efforts at locating haley. I'm not imtimately familiar with the rules and spells of D&D, but if I had to take a guess, there's probably a non-epic spell that is only effective on cloister that he hasn't thought of because of said indication. :smallconfused:
Doesn't matter. The point is, if V could research epic magic, she sure as hell would have done so by now to use in her search for Haley. And had she done that, she would have been able to pierce Cloister.

As for a non-epic spell that is only effective on Cloister, unlikely. Cloister was created by Dorukon, and only he, his associates and allies from his days guarding his Gate, and Xykon even know the spell exists (well, and Haley and Roy now, but that's because Celia told them about it), and he and Xykon are the only two who have ever used it. If any such lower-level countering spell exists, it would be another creation of Dorukon's, and known only to him (and possibly Xykon).

At this point, the highest level spell we've ever seen V cast was the Prismatic Spray she used against the devil (Pit Fiend?) Quarr summoned. That's a seventh level spell, so all it tells us is that she's definitely level 13 or higher. There is no indication at all that she is even level 15+, as she has never cast an eighth level or above spell, nor displayed any other ability of a Wizard that level. To suggest she's epic level is pretty ridiculous given that.


Disintegrate is a 6th level spell, meaning that V would have to be at those levels in order to cast that spell.
And that means we can rule out his "10" guess, since Wizards don't get access to those spells until level 11. Her ability to cast two Disintegrates can be explained one of two ways: either she was level 12+ (thus able to prepare 2 6th spells normally), or she was level 11 with 22+ intelligence (thus had a 6th-level bonus spell).

Zevox

[Linkavitch]

Hasn't it been proved that they are all level 12-14, or so? I mean the Order, not everyone, btw.

[Kish]

Disintegrate is a 6th level spell, meaning that V would have to be at those levels in order to cast that spell.
...meaning Vaarsuvius would have to be level 12+ to cast it twice, barring the not too likely possibility of him/her having gained 4 points in Intelligence since the mind flayer strip. My question is, why does JT Jag think level 10 is a possibility? Why would Rich have made a strange house rule and never mentioned it, express or implied? Wouldn't it be simpler for Vaarsuvius to have been level 12+ then?

[David Argall]

V and companions are around 13th, and will not get above that soon. Remember, we have at least 2 more books, during which the party must deem Xykon, who is somewhere in the low 20s, at a serious threat. A party of 19th-20th level would blow him away and so they are unlikely to reach these levels. Assume about a level a book from here on out.

[Raenir Salazar]

technically we have at least 4 more years of comics if i read the faq correctly.

[[TS] Shadow]

And that means we can rule out his "10" guess, since Wizards don't get access to those spells until level 11. Her ability to cast two Disintegrates can be explained one of two ways: either she was level 12+ (thus able to prepare 2 6th spells normally), or she was level 11 with 22+ intelligence (thus had a 6th-level bonus spell).

And we already know V has 18 intelligence, so he must have been at level 12 at that time.

[Zevox]

Shadow;5698222']And we already know V has 18 intelligence, so he must have been at level 12 at that time.
We know that she had 18 intelligence way back at the beginning of the strip, when she made that comment to the Mind Flayer. A good long time has passed since then. It's not unreasonable for her to have acquired a Headband of Intellect +4, especially if she has the Craft Wondrous Item feat and could thus make it herself. (And, though not relevant to that incident, if nothing else hitting level 12 almost surely means she bolstered her intelligence by 1 then, so it is fairly safe to assume a 19 minimum for her now.)

Zevox

[[TS] Shadow]

We know that she had 18 intelligence way back at the beginning of the strip, when she made that comment to the Mind Flayer. A good long time has passed since then. It's not unreasonable for her to have acquired a Headband of Intellect +4, especially if she has the Craft Wondrous Item feat and could thus make it herself. (And, though not relevant to that incident, if nothing else hitting level 12 almost surely means she bolstered her intelligence by 1 then, so it is fairly safe to assume a 19 minimum for her now.)

Zevox

If you say so. I'm not really knowledgable about the D&D rules outside of the basics.

[factotum]

Nope, because he specifically denied reinforcements - there just wouldn't be enough room.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Reinforcements is exactly the reason WHY V would want to cast the spell on as many soldiers as he could--it takes a lot less effort to cast a single Mass Enlarge Person than to keep casting Enlarge Person on single solders in order to plug the gaps in the line. Therefore, my point holds: he only cast the spell on 13 people because that's the maximum number of people he could cast it on, making him level 13.

[King of Nowhere]

Many people take V's statement that he has 18 INT as a natural 18 at first level.
A wizard should be very unoptimized or unlucky with rolls to not have 22 int at level 11. He get 2 level boost, and an item for +4 int is perfectly in line with the whealt per level rate (and on a wizard, it would be unthinkable to not buy it). So the only reason a wizard can not have 22 int at level 11 is that he started with an int of 15, or that he used his resources badly.
Assuming V was 11 level when he or she or it defeated the dragon is perfectly reasonable.

[T-O-E]

technically we have at least 4 more years of comics if i read the faq correctly.

If I recall correctly, the FAQ hasn't been updated in years.

[hamishspence]

just because wizards and other characters should have items, doesn't mean they do.

When V referred to INT in front of the Squid Thingy :smallamused: that was very early on. However, being able to cast 4th level spells (Distant Inferno, made up by V) puts V at 7th level at minimum.

If referring to "natural" Int, without magic item modifications, 18, but starting at 1st level with 17, would not be unreasonable for a 7th level character.

[Zevox]

just because wizards and other characters should have items, doesn't mean they do.

When V referred to INT in front of the Squid Thingy :smallamused: that was very early on. However, being able to cast 4th level spells (Distant Inferno, made up by V) puts V at 7th level at minimum.

If referring to "natural" Int, without magic item modifications, 18, but starting at 1st level with 17, would not be unreasonable for a 7th level character.
Minimum level 9, actually. We see her cast Cone of Cold, a 5th level spell, in comic #41. Granted, this is after the Mind Flayer incident, but considering they had just leveled up in comic #12, odds are against her having leveled up in between the Mind Flayer and Cone of Cold strips. Which means the 18 was with 2 stat boosts (from level 4 and 8).

It isn't inconceivable though for V to have started with a 16 intelligence. While it wouldn't be smart to do with point buy, it would be a common thing with rolled stats for that to be her best roll. And besides, we should all know by now that no one in this comic strip is actually optimized anyway.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

I think you guys are taking the "18 Int" too literally. All we know for sure is that his Int during the mind flayer encounter wasn't less than 18. V saying "a delectable 18 intelligence" could just be a way of saying he's smart, since that's the benchmark for a genius-level intellect in a starting character.

In other words, he could have had more than 18 Int in #31 and his statement would still be correct - you have to have 18 before you can have 19, 20 etc.

[[TS] Shadow]

I think you guys are taking the "18 Int" too literally. All we know for sure is that his Int during the mind flayer encounter wasn't less than 18. V saying "a delectable 18 intelligence" could just be a way of saying he's smart, since that's the benchmark for a genius-level intellect in a starting character.

In other words, he could have had more than 18 Int in #31 and his statement would still be correct - you have to have 18 before you can have 19, 20 etc.

You have a good point, but V is one to brag. Why state that he had a lower intelligence than what he actually had? That's like saying "I got a B+ on my test!" when you really got an A-. There's no point.

And I love how off topic were are.

[Corwin Weber]

Just as an aside to the 'must be such and such level because (s)he cast disintegrate twice' argument.... erm......

...aren't we forgetting the ring? V without a ring of wizardry might have to wait until 12th level to cast that spell twice.... but with it.... not so much?

It depends on what type it is, and I don't recall that having been specified.

[Finwe]

...aren't we forgetting the ring? V without a ring of wizardry might have to wait until 12th level to cast that spell twice.... but with it.... not so much?

They only go up to 4th level for non-epic rings







I'm reasonably sure that he doesn't yet know that cloister is the spell blocking his/her efforts at locating haley. I'm not imtimately familiar with the rules and spells of D&D, but if I had to take a guess, there's probably a non-epic spell that is only effective on cloister that he hasn't thought of because of said indication. :smallconfused:

Cloister is an epic spell. All epic spells are "homebrewed," meaning they're created by either the DM or a player. So there's no spell "by the books" that would be able to counter it.



I dunno, as a means of creating balance in a game, there's a technique (I can't remember the name of it) where you write counters to specific abilities.

Epic spells are not meant to be balanced. They're the nuclear weapons of D&D.

[lord_khaine]

It depends on what type it is, and I don't recall that having been specified.

as i recall it was stated in the dragonbattle that the ring affects lv 3 slots.

as for the place where V mentions having 18 in intelligence, then he was proberly refering to unbuffed Int, he would easely have had a 20 back then, thnxs to a +2 headband, but that would not intereste the mind flayer.

[Kurald Galain]

just because wizards and other characters should have items, doesn't mean they do.

No, but they probably do anyway. Although it's rarely referred to in the comic, we have eventually found out that pretty much every weapon used by either the Order or their major antagonists was magical.

[MickJay]

Now that V's cast disintegrate 4 times in a row, what that does that say about his level?

[WJLIII3]

Now that V's cast disintegrate 4 times in a row, what that does that say about his level?

Either he's 17th level, asssuming his Int is actually 18, or, if his Int is 22 or higher, he could be as low as 14th.

Also, he's not a big fan of spell diversity, or doesn't know many good 6th level spells.

[Zevox]

Either he's 17th level, asssuming his Int is actually 18, or, if his Int is 22 or higher, he could be as low as 14th.

Also, he's not a big fan of spell diversity, or doesn't know many good 6th level spells.
Actually, since she can prepare lower-level spells in higher-level slots if she likes, she could be as low as level 13 with a 22 intelligence, and just have used her 7th-level slot to prepare a Disintegrate.

I'd personally peg the most likely explanation as being level 14 with 22+ int total though. I don't think V is the type to prepare lower level spells in higher level slots when she could instead have higher-level, more powerful spells.

Zevox

[factotum]

Actually, since she can prepare lower-level spells in higher-level slots if she likes, she could be as low as level 13 with a 22 intelligence, and just have used her 7th-level slot to prepare a Disintegrate.


You're forgetting that V already used up the 7th-level slot to cast Bugsby's Grasping Hand, assuming that spell is the same as the Core spell Bigby's Grasping Hand.

[Zevox]

You're forgetting that V already used up the 7th-level slot to cast Bugsby's Grasping Hand, assuming that spell is the same as the Core spell Bigby's Grasping Hand.
Except that V is an Evoker, and Bigby's Grasping Hand is an evocation spell, so it could have been prepared in her bonus evocation spell slot.

Zevox

[Sholos]

Many people take V's statement that he has 18 INT as a natural 18 at first level.
A wizard should be very unoptimized or unlucky with rolls to not have 22 int at level 11. He get 2 level boost, and an item for +4 int is perfectly in line with the whealt per level rate (and on a wizard, it would be unthinkable to not buy it). So the only reason a wizard can not have 22 int at level 11 is that he started with an int of 15, or that he used his resources badly.
Assuming V was 11 level when he or she or it defeated the dragon is perfectly reasonable.

I'd have thought the acquisition of such an item would have been shown, or at least mentioned, in the comic. Since it hasn't, there isn't a reason to suspect that V has one. Also, since when is any character in OOTS even remotely optimized? Hell, V specialized in Evocation, something that I think is on the lower end for optimization, yes?

[David Argall]

I'd have thought the acquisition of such an item would have been shown, or at least mentioned, in the comic.

The comic obviously does not show a whole lot of things that happen in the adventure. We see under 10 meals out of over a thousand. We see the party hit the head once over about two year. Essentially we see those events that have a direct plot element or have good joke elements. So silence does not give consent here.
On a more positive element, we have p. 304A in W&XP Belkar tells us the party has enough gold, and magic, that a +1 ring of protection is deemed worthless. That means everyone in the party has a ring of protection, probably higher than +1, or they have two magic rings, quite possibly both. But we have no idea where these rings came from.
We also have various references to the party getting level appropriate treasure. So they have a lot of magic that has not been mentioned in the strip. We have enough evidence to assume they are not tweaked out in magic or anything else, but they should be assumed to have reasonable equipment.

[enarch3t]

Except that V is an Evoker, and Bigby's Grasping Hand is an evocation spell, so it could have been prepared in her bonus evocation spell slot.

Zevox

But what level spell is Bugby's Expressive Single Digit?

[The Minx]

You need an Int score of 24+ to get a bonus 7th level spell.

V could get this from having an 18 Intelligence and a +6 Headband of Intellect, or by having an 20 Intelligence and a +4 or better Headband of Intellect. Since he was at Int 18 when they met the Squid Thingy, it could be either of these.

This means he needs to be of a level which allows 3 Disintigrate spells per day, not counting bonus spells from Int.

If Disintigrate is a Transmutation as it is in the SRD, this means that he would have to be of 16th level. If Disintigrate is an Evocation in the stickverse, he could use the daily bonus spell for it, and be of 14th level.

So, V has Int 18 to 20+, has a Headband of Intellect (or similar item) granting a +6 or +4 bonus (depending on the base Int), and is of level 14+ or 16+ (depending on the school Disintigrate belongs to). (EDIT: yea, I doubt V has Int 32, so two bonus spells from high Int are probably out :smallsmile:)


PS: There the possibility that the Ring of Wizardry is a custom job which works for high level spells, or that V has some other item which allows more spells to be cast. A further possibility is some obscure feat or ability which permits swapping spell slots in some way, though in the absence of any evidence, these are mere speculation.

[Zeful]

I'm reasonably sure that he doesn't yet know that cloister is the spell blocking his/her efforts at locating haley. I'm not imtimately familiar with the rules and spells of D&D, but if I had to take a guess, there's probably a non-epic spell that is only effective on cloister that he hasn't thought of because of said indication. :smallconfused:The only indication of such an ability would be a caster level check (A d20 roll plus the character's caster level) because of Eugene punching through the cloister with his scrying abilities.


I dunno, as a means of creating balance in a game, there's a technique (I can't remember the name of it) where you write counters to specific abilities. These counters are easier to learn and use, but are only effective against their respective spell. That said, I find it likely that there's something out there that he could use.The DMG does possess a section for creating spells and gives an example of a spell usable only against red dragons would be lower level than a spell that doesn't have such limitations. A spell only usable against Dorukon's Cloister specifically would be many levels lower than an generic anti-divination spell.

[Tortoise262]

3 Words: Pearl of Power.

[David Argall]

3 Words: Pearl of Power.

An idea, but two points.
It costs 36,000 gp, which is a hefty price for someone of V's level. Definitely possible, but there are a lot of other options for the gold, and V does not seem to be operating in a world where one gets to order magic from a store. So it is iffy at best if she has one.

We have a big dramatic picture, which loses a lot of impact if V is just able to turn around and cast Disintegrate again. The story is much better if V is all out of high level spells.

[The Minx]

An idea, but two points.
It costs 36,000 gp, which is a hefty price for someone of V's level. Definitely possible, but there are a lot of other options for the gold, and V does not seem to be operating in a world where one gets to order magic from a store. So it is iffy at best if she has one.

We have a big dramatic picture, which loses a lot of impact if V is just able to turn around and cast Disintegrate again. The story is much better if V is all out of high level spells.

It also makes sense that the dragon knows how often V can cast it. After all, it knows him by name, which implies that he has been preparing for this encounter for some time and is familiar with V's capabilities.

This preparation is probably due to the slaying of that other black dragon, of course.