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Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 12:58 AM
The paladin. One of the most misunderstood classes in D&D history. Originally in 1e they were marked by having steep requirements and being for humans only. In 2e it was lumped in with fighters like a common warrior, finally getting the respect it deserved with The Complete Paladin's Handbook. 3e and 3.5 was probably the darkest hour for paladins everywhere. Saddled with a roleplaying code that sparked countless debates and endless confusion, practically forced into a mounted combat style useless in dungeons, and always overshadowed by the almighty CoDzilla and the obscenely powerful wizards (not to mention creating one of the most polarizing characters in OotS.) Now we've arrived in 4e, and paladins are finally given a much needed bolstering. Now they can play with the big boys. But then they are overshadowed by the strikers, who infest the game like rats. Soon everyone's playing strikers, leaving the paladin all alone. Surely supplemental material would help the poor paladin. But no. All the paladin gets is a few mediocre paragon paths, while the strikers are showered with benefits beyond measure, and their ranks increase month by month.

I love paladins. I LOVE PALADINS! They're practically the only class I'll ever play these days. I love the idea of charging in like Galahad, sword drawn, ready to slay evil wherever it lurks. I like charging my strikes with holy might. I like exploring the concept of religion, which the paladin is all over. I love the myths and stories that inspired them. I love paladins.

And what really has gotten me upset over the years is that paladins always seem to get the shaft, regardless of what edition. I started playing D&D during the 3.5 days, and I was immediately drawn to them. But then I found the WOTC boards, which almost universally decried the paladin as having an inflexible code and being mechanically weak. I suffered in silence until 4e came, and I reveled with joy at the makeover the paladin recieved. But then, when I joined a game, everyone else was either a ranger, rogue or warlock. I was put on healing duty because I was the only one capable. Lay on hands is NOT a substitute for a cleric, and it is not what the paladin should be all about! While there is the promise of Divine Power to do for the paladin and cleric what Martial Power did for the ranger, rogue, warlord and fighter, I don't think that's any excuse. What's wrong with paladins?! Are they just not good enough? Is the concept of a religious warrior just too touchy in this modern day and age? Why don't paladins get the respect they deserve!

Agrippa
2009-01-26, 01:15 AM
Technically clerics are religous warriors (templars). Paladins are warriors for righteousness its self and their god or gods second. Also, I happen to really like the AD&D minimum scores for paladins. 9 to Intelligence, 12 to Wisdom, Strength and Constitution and 17 to Charisma. You can lower the Charisma needed to 15 or 16 if you want to.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 01:17 AM
In 4e that's changed though, since now there can be unaligned paladins and even evil ones (though those are more likely NPCs).

Aron Times
2009-01-26, 01:22 AM
Paladins have lots of HP and more healing surges than most classes. Also, they're pretty good at locking down bosses with their Divine Challenge. Since 4E is built around the assumption that characters will miss 50% of the time, getting automatic damage each round if your marked enemy ignores you is very powerful.

It's just too bad that they still suffer from MAD, though it's not as bad as in 3.5.

Tengu_temp
2009-01-26, 01:26 AM
3.x paladin is a crappy class... because he's a melee fighter with little spellcasting. Spellcasting rules in third edition. 4e paladin is a very good defender with a side of healing, and strength-based paladins deal most damage from all defenders. Fighters got new options with Martial Power, paladins will get new options with Divine Power - be patient and wait for it.

"Healing duty"? What the hell? Lay on hands is a freakin' minor action, you can do it in addition to killing stuff. Also, you should've told your party members that you're primarily a defender, and that your 2-4 LoH per day won't be enough to heal everyone, unless you only have 1-2 encounters per day without resting.

Personally? Don't take is as an offense, but I think you have issues, man. Relax. This is just a game. Alternatively, you're surrounded by stupid people who think that "pladins sux" and being evil is cool, dark and edgy, in which case you should find smarter friends.

TempusCCK
2009-01-26, 01:27 AM
Rebuild your own Paladin class for 3.5, or you can use a ton of the homebrews available. Fax's is good, and I've got one that's kind of flavored as an anti-caster I'd be more than happy to send you.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-01-26, 01:36 AM
I agree with the principle of this thread; Paladin is an immensely fun and intriguing class/archetype which tends to get implemented poorly by the designers and vastly misunderstood by players, both those who play them and those who don't.

However, I like the 4e Paladin. It's very good at what it does, and isn't overshadowed by anyone else (except maybe Swordmage, because it's freaking Swordmage). Your problem, Zousha, is with your group, not the class design. In 4e, it's rather inadvisable for everyone to play Strikers, yet they went ahead and did it anyway. Your Lay on Hands (a minor action, so it doesn't interfere too much with your tank-and-smite duties) will keep them alive for a bit, but they're going to suffer for their obsession with DPS. That's nothing wrong with the 4e Paladin.

Flickerdart
2009-01-26, 01:42 AM
PrC out into stuff? Not to mention Spirited Charge is the easiest way to deal obscene damage at low levels, so mounted isn't that bad (unless, yes, dungeons). It's just the Paladin's Code that shafted them.

And I've always wanted to play one, actually. Too bad I never have time to play anymore, and no IRL group available. Maybe when university rolls around.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-01-26, 01:45 AM
Found this in the thread that apparently helped inspire this one, and thought I'd post it here.

More options for paladins isn't going to change the fact that the strikers outnumber them five to one, and EVERYONE wants to play strikers. You could have an ENTIRE FREAKIN' PARTY of just strikers, one from each power source! It's not fair!:smallmad:Just wanted to comment, that's not a party. That's a cannonade made entirely out of glass. Your group is just weird, and possibly not all that bright.

Eldariel
2009-01-26, 01:46 AM
Pick Crusader, call it a Paladin, done! Now your 3.5 Paladin is good.

The reason it wasn't good is because WoTC doesn't know how to build their own game; for no particular reason, they decided that Paladins should need Str for fighting, Con for HP, Cha for class features, Wis for spellcasting and be low enough on skills to require Int and be frontliners wanting to max their AC so wanting some Dex (oh, and Initiative...and Ride).

Not only that, but they decided that full BAB is Super Special Awesome and therefore you get 4 levels of crappy spellcasting over 9 levels because your BAB is slightly better than a Cleric's. And because you get the spellcasting, you can't get e.g. bonus feats even though you're a martial character so if you want to fight mounted, you need to burn your 6 first levels of feats on it.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 01:48 AM
I should probably clarify more. That was our group starting out. We also had a fighter. The strikers were two rangers, a rogue and a rogue/warlock. One ranger quit, the other is practically never there. Now we've got a warlord and a cleric, but I still feel marginalized.

MCerberus
2009-01-26, 01:48 AM
RAW paladins in 3.x games were just asking for an eventual back stab from the party. I swear "Improperly Placed Stick" was a class feature. This led directly to a plague in RP around my parts: rolling a paladin so one could murder a few babies and go Blackguard.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-01-26, 01:59 AM
But Blackguard is even worse mechanically, at least compared to other PrCs.

All 3.5 Paladins need is judicious use of splat material (which really, any non-caster needs to keep up except maybe Rogues) and a DM who doesn't intentionally use their Code to screw them over. Writing out a specific, less vague Code for your particular campaign/religious organization/individual Paladin would also probably help.


I should probably clarify more. That was our group starting out. We also had a fighter. The strikers were two rangers, a rogue and a rogue/warlock. One ranger quit, the other is practically never there. Now we've got a warlord and a cleric, but I still feel marginalized.What's making you feel marginalized, exactly? Do you feel like you aren't needed? Are you upset that Paladins aren't a striker class, and therefore don't deal as much righteous pounding to the monsters as the others?

Behold_the_Void
2009-01-26, 01:59 AM
Do you think you should be doing a lot of damage? Because if so, I think you're approaching it the wrong way, that's not a Paladin's thing. Paladins are defenders, they're good at making things want to attack them.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 02:02 AM
Do you think you should be doing a lot of damage? Because if so, I think you're approaching it the wrong way, that's not a Paladin's thing. Paladins are defenders, they're good at making things want to attack them.

I don't think I should be doing a lot of damage, I just think I should be on the front lines with the warforged fighter.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-01-26, 02:14 AM
And why aren't you? That's where Defenders ought to be, especially Paladins with their LoH and short-range damage+heal powers.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 02:17 AM
The strikers get in the way and then take large ammounts of damage that either me or the cleric have to heal, or the warforged fighter is in the way and kills the goblin before I can get a swing in.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 02:22 AM
What's making you feel marginalized, exactly? Do you feel like you aren't needed?

This. I feel useless in combat. Where I really shine is in roleplay, but we don't get much of that since combat can take months to finish (we're in an online play-by-post and none of the players are on at the same time and most haven't posted in weeks!)

Nerd-o-rama
2009-01-26, 02:23 AM
Hm. I never had a problem with other PCs getting in the way during my stint as a Swordmage. Perhaps you should work on group tactics; they won't take near as much damage if you and the fighter go in first and Mark the bad guys, and they should know and use that to their advantage. If they're just Leeroy Jenkinsing their way in way ahead of you every time, that's a problem.

Ponce
2009-01-26, 02:26 AM
3.5e Paladin isn't actually all that bad mechanically (the code of conduct is indeed terrible, though).

The mount is actually quite formidable (the heavy warhorse is quite strong and fast, not to mention having three natural attacks, two of which are primary), equivalent in many ways to the druid's animal companion, excepting that the paladin can't buff his mount as well as the druid can, but since you are going to mount it, you can also make better use of Share Spells than a druid can. You can also take a few feats to beef it up, and combined with Battle Blessing, the mount suddenly becomes very powerful.

In my experience, a surprising amount of creatures project fear effects, so in practice Aura of Courage is actually much more useful than many people make it out to be. Your party will thank you when the DM says those magic words: "Everybody make a will save."

Divine Grace means you aren't going to be knocked out by the first save you are forced to make. Many people dip into Paladin because Divine Grace is JUST THAT GOOD.

Aura of Good and Lay on Hands are more for story, but can still be situationally useful. I'd almost lump Lay on Hands in here as well, but it is still good in a pinch.

Smite can really dish out some rather serious damage when used on an evil opponent. Its bonus damage gets multiplied on a critical hit, remember. Also allows for greater power attacking.

Turn Undead is GREAT. Grants you divine feats, and with your high cha you get LOTS of uses. Divine Power works especially well.

Remove disease is pretty useless, but you can trade it in for more useful alternative class features. I think there is one that lets you Break Enchantments. This is actually quite useful.

The spells are kind of meh. You do eventually get GMW though, so you can save on weapon enchantments (ie, get a +1 greatsword and keep adding special abilities, then later you can just cast GMW and get the enchantment for free). Mostly decent otherwise, but if you grab Battle Blessing, HELLO BUFFSVILLE!

Finally, you have full BAB, martial proficiency, full armour access, and d10 HD.

So yeah, I would say its actually a fairly decent class. It can handle CR-appropriate monsters, and its abilities *gasp* scale. That's right. Take a look at the Paladin's abilities. The vast majority of them SCALE WITH LEVEL. This is important, and it is what makes this class not nearly as awful as one might think. No, its not Batman or CoDzilla, but if it was then it would be a rather BAD class, wouldn't you say? You DO have access to a number of the things that make the cleric powerful.

I mean really, it is a GOOD CLASS and it has a LOT of support material in the splatbooks. The PrCs associated with it are actually quite strong. Shadowbane Inquisitor? Fist of Raziel? Beefy classes.

Code of Conduct still stupid though.

Still, if you never the less find the above to not be useful... play a Paladin 2.0 (crusader).

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-26, 02:29 AM
If they're just Leeroy Jenkinsing their way in way ahead of you every time, that's a problem.

...with them, not the Paladin.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 02:33 AM
Here's the layout of the battle we're in now.

http://z9.invisionfree.com/Travellers_Respite/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=2189067

Suzu is the rogue/warlock "priestess."

Falchior is the ranger.

Terazul is a wizard.

Mr. Big is the warforged fighter.

Tremmie is the other rogue.

Maarif is new, a dragonborn warlord.

Jade is also new, a doppleganger cleric of the Raven Queen.

The yellow dot is my paladin. The reason he's not listed is because the DM (who also plays Suzu,) forgot to put me on the map. She forgot about me!:smallmad:

Behold_the_Void
2009-01-26, 02:45 AM
The yellow dot is my paladin. The reason he's not listed is because the DM (who also plays Suzu,) forgot to put me on the map. She forgot about me!:smallmad:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say being a Paladin is at best marginally related to the problems you are having and that the real problem is your group.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 02:46 AM
Care to elaborate?

Behold_the_Void
2009-01-26, 02:49 AM
Care to elaborate?

Your GM forgot about you. Your strikers are charging in and not giving you a chance to fulfill your role of protecting them from harm appropriately and are using you to fulfill a role that you really shouldn't need to be filling (i.e. leader).

So I'm seeing:

1. Lack of respect for you
2. Lack of tactical planning
3. Lack of ability to appropriately manage combat so that everyone is able to contribute meaningfully. In 4e this isn't hard to do, you basically just need to let someone do his thing and not get in the way, which they have shown they aren't capable of.

So yeah. Paladins are amazing defenders, my group has one and he's helped them a lot. He's also not bad on the damage front either, and he's definitely a valued member of the party. Paladins in 4e are not the problem here.

RTGoodman
2009-01-26, 02:50 AM
Care to elaborate?

1. DMPC in the spotlight
2. Bad DMing (obvious if your DM FORGETS ABOUT YOUR CHARACTER)
3. Terrible tactics among the players
4. Bad encounter design (seriously, the enemies are all just lined/bunched up like that?)


Now, these MIGHT not be true, but I'd hazard a guess that they could be.


EDIT: Yeah, what that ninja said... :smalltongue:

Artanis
2009-01-26, 02:54 AM
Seriously, if the DM forgets that you exist, then life is going to suck no matter what class you are.

KnightDisciple
2009-01-26, 02:55 AM
Your GM forgot about you. Your strikers are charging in and not giving you a chance to fulfill your role of protecting them from harm appropriately and are using you to fulfill a role that you really shouldn't need to be filling (i.e. leader).

So I'm seeing:

1. Lack of respect for you
2. Lack of tactical planning
3. Lack of ability to appropriately manage combat so that everyone is able to contribute meaningfully. In 4e this isn't hard to do, you basically just need to let someone do his thing and not get in the way, which they have shown they aren't capable of.

So yeah. Paladins are amazing defenders, my group has one and he's helped them a lot. He's also not bad on the damage front either, and he's definitely a valued member of the party. Paladins in 4e are not the problem here.

This, plus I'm curious why you haven't plopped yourself on that line of warriors, along the side (not dissing you at all, but I do see a big open spot there). Grab their attention on that side, and wail away.
Not that it excuses the other factors here.

Narmoth
2009-01-26, 02:55 AM
But Blackguard is even worse mechanically, at least compared to other PrCs.

He can do well in offense, with sneak attack dmg on flanking and dmg increasing spells I can get him to do 10d6 with the greatsword, but yes, it's really a flavor class.


The strikers get in the way and then take large ammounts of damage that either me or the cleric have to heal, or the warforged fighter is in the way and kills the goblin before I can get a swing in.

Tell them in character to stay back and let you do your job as a warrior. Tell them that you are tired of healing them, and would like them to get less hurt. :smalltongue:



The mount is actually quite formidable (the heavy warhorse is quite strong and fast, not to mention having three natural attacks, two of which are primary), equivalent in many ways to the druid's animal companion, excepting that the paladin can't buff his mount as well as the druid can, but since you are going to mount it, you can also make better use of Share Spells than a druid can. You can also take a few feats to beef it up, and combined with Battle Blessing, the mount suddenly becomes very powerful.

Hate the mount, never use it, try to get the dm to give something to replace it, like a feat or special ability


Aura of Good and Lay on Hands are more for story, but can still be situationally useful. I'd almost lump Lay on Hands in here as well, but it is still good in a pinch.

Lay on hands is actually very nice as last resort healing, and it heals quite a bit on high lvl


Smite can really dish out some rather serious damage when used on an evil opponent. Its bonus damage gets multiplied on a critical hit, remember. Also allows for greater power attacking.

Not that good compared to other paladin abilities, particularly the dmg part


Turn Undead is GREAT. Grants you divine feats, and with your high cha you get LOTS of uses. Divine Power works especially well.

Indeed it is.


The spells are kind of meh. You do eventually get GMW though, so you can save on weapon enchantments (ie, get a +1 greatsword and keep adding special abilities, then later you can just cast GMW and get the enchantment for free). Mostly decent otherwise, but if you grab Battle Blessing, HELLO BUFFSVILLE!

You also get a bit more healing, which always is welcome


Code of Conduct still stupid though.

Well, that really depends on the dm and the player.

-------------
Personally, I've always thought that all the drawbacks is what make the paladin special. His not the strongest class mechanically, he has a strict code that is more suitable with an experienced role player than a beginner with a bad dm, but he is a true hero that charges into the battle when other classes would sneak away, and falls back after the fighter, who does more dmg.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 03:00 AM
This, plus I'm curious why you haven't plopped yourself on that line of warriors, along the side (not dissing you at all, but I do see a big open spot there). Grab their attention on that side, and wail away.
Not that it excuses the other factors here.

Because I wasn't reading the map right and thought there was a wall there and the dragonborn was inside the chapel. D'OH!:smallsigh:

KnightDisciple
2009-01-26, 03:02 AM
Because I wasn't reading the map right and thought there was a wall there and the dragonborn was inside the chapel. D'OH!:smallsigh:

Ah. That happens. :smallwink:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 03:20 AM
I mean I don't want to blame our DM too much. She's a good friend and she's had a lot to deal with, spending Christmas and New Year's in a hospital and watching the only friend she had there walk off a roof and all.:smallfrown:

Hawriel
2009-01-26, 03:40 AM
Technically clerics are religous warriors (templars). Paladins are warriors for righteousness its self and their god or gods second. Also, I happen to really like the AD&D minimum scores for paladins. 9 to Intelligence, 12 to Wisdom, Strength and Constitution and 17 to Charisma. You can lower the Charisma needed to 15 or 16 if you want to.

The templars where an order knights created during the chrusades. They where dedicated to protecting christian temples in the middle east, also known as the holy land. The templars grew into a large military order, becoming one of the best fighting forces the kings of europe had. They also where good diplomats and created one of the first true banking systems in europe. Templars are not clerics. They did not preech nor prosrlitise. Clerics or clergymen are priests. Some priests have taken up arms but this was never the funtion of a cleric.

Templars also lived by a strict code of chivalry and piety. They lived very simple lives. Even a high ranking templar had few possessions, and lived in very small accomodations. I mention chivalry because by the time of the crusades knight hood had already been transformed by the church into the foundation of what we think of knight hood today. The key change being a protector of the week, and divotion to god.

The paladin in D&D is founded on the stories of crusader knights and mythical figures such as Arther, and Galahad. Tempars, as well as hospitalars, and tutonics are exactly what paladins are.

Clerics or clergymen are priests. Some priests have taken up arms but this was never the funtion of a cleric.

Reluctance
2009-01-26, 03:56 AM
From how I'm reading things, it's not just the DM. It's also the other players expecting you to shut up and heal them rather than doing your own thing in combat.

More importantly, it's you going along with that. There's a point where you have to dump your own plan to cover for a friend, and then there's a point where you become a doormat and they come to expect that treatment from you. And once they start to see you as just another healing resource, it's hard to reassert yourself as anything else.

Since this seems to come down to an issue about your personality and it's unlikely to change overnight, let me instead suggest you re-read P. 295 in the PHB. On one level, your healing is a very limited resource. Since you get more bang for your healing buck if you bring an ally up from sub-0 hit points, you can reasonably argue that you're trying to get the most effect from your powers. On a more practical level, while you'll still come to the aid of an ally who's effectively taken out, you'll be letting them deal with the consequences of their actions until then. And more importantly, you'll be using more of your actions to do your own paladinly buffing/marking/smiting thing.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-26, 05:30 AM
One way to get around being unable to use mounted combat in dungeons is to play as a small race, but this will hinder your melee fighting. I'd agree that looking into 3.5 Homebrews is the best solution for 3.5, though (I remember looking over Fax's version and it is pretty interresting; while it still has a code of conduct which depends on your alignment and some other choices, violating part of it isn't going to be completely crippling). I'll try to find a link to it, unless Fax already posted in this thread and I missed it.

EDIT: Here's the link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551&highlight=Paladin (The Entrophy Mantle is great if you're like me in the sense that you class leaving potentially dangerous evil people alive to be a bad idea. :smalltongue:)

AslanCross
2009-01-26, 08:50 AM
Seriously, if the DM forgets that you exist, then life is going to suck no matter what class you are.

Agreed. In any case, I've found that bad tactics are always helped by a leader figure shouting out orders.

In the game I'm running, we have a Paladin/Crusader, a Ranger/Swordsage, a Rogue/Swordsage, a cleric, and a wizard. The Paladin/Crusader actually gets the most kills because he usually is on the frontline to begin with, and likes charging. The only time he actually failed at this was when he charged into a Bluespawn Godslayer that promptly flung him 10 feet away with negative HP.

I'm also playing as a warforged warblade in another game, and he always makes it a point to tell the other guys to get the Hells out of his way. He likes charging too (especially with Charging Minotaur) and makes it a point to always have a clear line of effect to his targets. The other PCs have since learned not to get in his way. (It only took a wonderfully-executed Charging Minotaur, which sent an angry dire wolverine skittering across the floor, landing 15 feet away.) They've never blocked my path since.

I really think it's a matter of group tactics. The strikers are trying their best to do their job, and end up preventing you from doing yours. I do think it's a group problem.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 10:26 AM
I see. I'll try and see if I can get the fight started up again, and then try using some better tactics. The warforged can probably handle the captain who just attacked the rogue/warlock, and since we do have a cleric now, I can put my attention where it belongs.

Morty
2009-01-26, 10:40 AM
This thread confuses the living heck out of me. I know paladins aren't the best class there is in 3ed, but it's a perfectly playable class unless you play in a high-level campaign, everyone else does their best to play the most broken wizards or clerics they can and DM tries to kill you. Yes, people complain about paladins in 3rd edition, but guess why? They want to play them and find it not as enjoyabe as they'd like either because of the code of conduct or paladin's mechanical weakness. So your conclusion that paladins don't get any respect is preety weird, especially since they get as much stuff in the splatbooks as everyone else. And your 4ed problems really sound like there's something wrong with your group, not the class itself.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 10:44 AM
So why is it that all the paladin threads I've seen from 3e tend to be complaints or reconstructions, and why has all the supplemental material for paladins in 4e been subpar?

From what the people on the WOTC CharOp boards have said, the Knight of Celestia is a pretty poor paragon path.

Morty
2009-01-26, 10:54 AM
So why is it that all the paladin threads I've seen from 3e tend to be complaints or reconstructions, and why has all the supplemental material for paladins in 4e been subpar?


I can't comment on the second complaint, since I don't read 4ed materials, but the first is easily answered: people satisfied with something are less likely to talk about it on the boards, especially since in many groups, balance problems don't appear in a way they're discussed here, and when they do complain, it means they cae about the class. Not to mention I've seen many people talking about the paladin without complaining. That, and you shouldn't care overmuch about what you read on a forum. It's just a game, for Gygax's sake.

kamikasei
2009-01-26, 11:17 AM
So why is it that all the paladin threads I've seen from 3e tend to be complaints or reconstructions,

Now, is your objection that the palading class doesn't live up to your idea of the paladin concept, that people dislike the class for what you see as bad reasons, or that they don't like the concept enough?

I would say a lot of people like paladins, but many of those feel that the class is too mechanically weak and/or that the code of conduct is badly implemented, and so want to amend those failings to let them play the paladin in their heads as an effective character.

I think M0rt's correct in that the paladin got plenty of support in 3e, but Wizards are sufficiently bad at design and at playing their own game that the additional material didn't really fix the basic problems people had with the class (and, of course, if something in a core book is fundamentally not right it's hard to repair that in a splat - they could boost the power level by giving new and more useful feats and spells, but they couldn't rework the code of conduct or fundamentally rewrite the class).

Matthew
2009-01-26, 11:23 AM
The templars where an order knights created during the chrusades. They where dedicated to protecting christian temples in the middle east, also known as the holy land. The templars grew into a large military order, becoming one of the best fighting forces the kings of europe had. They also where good diplomats and created one of the first true banking systems in europe. Templars are not clerics. They did not preech nor prosrlitise. Clerics or clergymen are priests. Some priests have taken up arms but this was never the funtion of a cleric.

Templars also lived by a strict code of chivalry and piety. They lived very simple lives. Even a high ranking templar had few possessions, and lived in very small accomodations. I mention chivalry because by the time of the crusades knight hood had already been transformed by the church into the foundation of what we think of knight hood today. The key change being a protector of the week, and divotion to god.

The paladin in D&D is founded on the stories of crusader knights and mythical figures such as Arther, and Galahad. Tempars, as well as hospitalars, and tutonics are exactly what paladins are.

Clerics or clergymen are priests. Some priests have taken up arms but this was never the funtion of a cleric.

El wrongo! You need to check your D&D history. Clerics were inspired by the military orders, just as Agrippa says. Indeed, this is directly indicated in the first edition AD&D PHB. Paladins are inspired by Roland and Charlemagne's paladins, which has been stated numerous times by the originator of the class. Neither of these are, of course, direct analogues, but Paladins are not in their original conception "holy knights" (indeed, such terminology is even studiously avoided in the D20/3e PHB).

Bottom line, Templars, Hospitallars, and the other military religious orders are composed of men who are both monks and warriors. Both paladins and clerics could serve in such an order, as could just about any character class of an appropriate alignment and religious devotion. However, a paladin could equally have absolutely nothing to do with a military order.

Starbuck_II
2009-01-26, 11:39 AM
So why is it that all the paladin threads I've seen from 3e tend to be complaints or reconstructions, and why has all the supplemental material for paladins in 4e been subpar?

From what the people on the WOTC CharOp boards have said, the Knight of Celestia is a pretty poor paragon path.

Because Paladins are a slippery slope. Follow me here: they get good starting abilities, but what do they get past level 4 or 5?
Cure Disease? Um, Clerics have been doing that for a while.
And if you leave you can never return.

So that is problem.

Then the major complain the code: DMs will get all frustation and anger with that from jobs.
Some DMs even think it makes it funner (possible for him) when he imposes a fall or fall situation.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-01-26, 11:50 AM
Zousha Omenohu how do you feel about the alternate Paladins in the Unearthed arcana?

Like the paladin of freedom, slaughter, tyranny?

I 'm a big fan of paladins of freedoms..

I always play them kinda primitive eather starting with a level of barbarian and then going paladin...

Somthing about a paladin in medium armour like scale mail with furs on him strikes as awsome.

Dacia Brabant
2009-01-26, 11:53 AM
:smallsigh: I had a much longer reply but it got eaten by the forum gremlins.

I too love Paladins but the class has problems mechanically in that all its features are front-loaded in the first 5 levels (okay, except for spells, but paladin spellcasting is awful). While true that their powers scale with level, many of these can be enhanced through PrCs that have additional powers (which is true of many classes, granted), so levels 6-20 are largely redundant.

There are possible improvements though, we just had a thread less than a month ago where some ideas were mentioned (mantle feats for stricter codes of conduct, Lay on Hands curing more than just hit points, switchable auras, martial powers) and I'm sure there are others out there that you might like.

As far as the roleplaying problem of Paladins as stick-up-their-arse Lawful Jerks, I think that's just something that individual players, GMs and groups need to work out for themselves. I have my own way of playing a Paladin that strives to be in line with the Aristotelian virtues, but that doesn't mean every Pally has to do the same, or even that they all need to follow the same code of conduct. The main rules should just be to use common sense and remember that everyone, not just you, is there to have fun.

And 4e paladins are great, if still on the MAD side (as I think they should be to be effective, personally). Lots of HP and healing surges, good defenses, and IMO the better of the marks. Get some flanking madness going with you and that rogue/warlock.

KnightDisciple
2009-01-26, 12:04 PM
Zousha Omenohu how do you feel about the alternate Paladins in the Unearthed arcana?

Like the paladin of freedom, slaughter, tyranny?

I 'm a big fan of paladins of freedoms..

I always play them kinda primitive eather starting with a level of barbarian and then going paladin...

Somthing about a paladin in medium armour like scale mail with furs on him strikes as awsome.

If you like that character archetype, you should try David Weber's War God series.
Seriously. The main character is a paladin who's also a member of a race that get's a rage ability (obviously it's a novel, so there's not "I can only rage 2/day" or anything, but still).

Cubey
2009-01-26, 12:36 PM
Like many people before, I must say that your Paladin problems aren't a case of a badly designed class, but of your group. I suggest a confrontation when you tell them how you feel (including the DM and his/her possible ignoring of you - maybe it was just an isolated event? But better make sure), and if they don't get better than leaving.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 01:37 PM
Zousha Omenohu how do you feel about the alternate Paladins in the Unearthed arcana?

Like the paladin of freedom, slaughter, tyranny?

I 'm a big fan of paladins of freedoms..

I always play them kinda primitive eather starting with a level of barbarian and then going paladin...

Somthing about a paladin in medium armour like scale mail with furs on him strikes as awsome.
I've never really been too interested in them, mainly because the only access I have to Unearthed Arcana anymore is my local public library. And I'm at college in another state.

That said, I think at least the paladin of freedom's cool. I don't like the other two but that's more due to a loathing of all things evil.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 01:46 PM
Now, is your objection that the palading class doesn't live up to your idea of the paladin concept, that people dislike the class for what you see as bad reasons, or that they don't like the concept enough?I hate to say it, but I think that's my reason. Everything I read about paladins on the boards, because of the other reasons, makes it look like they're the most hated class of the bunch, or just a little thing to dip in on the way to blackguard.

My brother's first character was a paladin. When he told this to his group, the general response was "WOO! FALLEN PALADIN!"

They didn't see the paladin as a beacon of heroism and compassion. They saw it as a convenient ledge to jump off of so they could do evil things.

Later on, my brother played with the same group (I think I've told this story before), in an epic level game. Among the characters was his half-dragon (through Dragon Disciple) vampire sorcerer, a half orc named Sir B*tchsmacker who fought by throwing cabers loaded with dynamite and had a half-orc pr0n magazine in his inventory, a guy with a fireball for a head who got up on stage in a tavern to recite Shakespeare, and when the tavern booed him, he spat on the curtain, setting it on fire and burning the tavern to the ground. Another time, they were fighting a worm that walks and one of the worms apparently crawled up the rectum of my brother's character, and since the others claimed you had to kill all the worms or the worm that walks would rise again, they fried my brother's character in sunlight so they could kill the last worm. And another time, one of the other characters (a rogue, I believe), had gone away from the rest of the group to relieve himself, and a freak portal to Celestia opened in the bushes he was in, causing him to fall through the portal, and into a banquet hall in Celestia, where he landed in the lap of the hostess and accidentally defecated all over her dress.

Keld Denar
2009-01-26, 01:48 PM
Come on man, you wanted a strong paladin, I built you a strong paladin (until you mucked it up! :P j/k). Granted, it only has 5 levels of paladin, but thats because it trades up crappy Pally spell casting for the much better Divine Crusader casting. The paladin I built for you won't stack up to a SERIOUS melee oriented character, but he can still hold his own. He's got a good charisma, and he can swing it in a couple of different ways that are meaningful in a fight.

Yea, paladins kind of got the shaft in 3.5 because they weren't given very many mechanical abilities past 5th level, but you can still play an effective paladin archtype containing at LEAST 2-5 levels of paladin. I have half a dozen other paladin blend builds that are as effective as the one I made for you, and are equally as "paladiny", though none of them contain more than a few levels of paladin. Its a flawed class, but there is no reason why we should suffer from its mechanical ineptitude.

For more awesome kickassery, check out a Suel Arcanamach on a Paladin chasis. Lots of cha driven arcane/divine ass kickery! Lots of fun and effectiveness there!

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 01:54 PM
And I thank you for that build Keld. It'll really be a big help.

I'm talking about paladins in general though.

Already I have problems in my IRL group as a paladin, because one of the others is a Chaotic Evil kobold werewolf.

Keld Denar
2009-01-26, 02:06 PM
So? Remember the backstory? Lead by example, rather than evangelism, and you'll have fewer interparty conflicts. I'd also talk to your DM OOC and see what his opinion on things are, especially if the werewolf character plays Stupid Evil. Most DMs have an issue with interparty fighting. Some don't. Also, it depends on the maturity level of the werewolf. If hes pretty mature, he either shouldn't be upset if he does someting Stupid Evil and you turn him over to the authorities, or shouldn't be doing Stupid Evil things in the first place. If he doesn't play Stupid Evil, you're character shouldn't have a problem with him, as you are probably both struggling for the same cause, and you feel that the struggle is paralleled by the werewolf's own internal struggle between his base werewolf desires for blood and a higher calling. As long as you think he's fighting that fight, you should encourage him toward good, not condemn him. "Smite first, ask questions later" tends to leave you cut in twain and left to bleed out alone at the top of a ruined castle.

Regardless, the best way to deal with him is compassion. Once you judge him, you create tension. Your character understands that he is a misguided soul, and requires a strong moral example to help him see the error of his ways. You can both co-exist, provided the DM and other players are mature enough.

Tengu_temp
2009-01-26, 02:07 PM
stuff

You know what the problem is?

You, and your brother, are playing with immature idiots who think that Stupid Evil = the best thing since sliced bread. Find better people to play with, not people who, to use a webcomic comparison, think it'd be kickass if Belkar/Black Mage/Richard/Bun-Bun killed everyone and then made hot love to Haley/White Mage/That Troll Girl/No Idea, Tengu Doesn't Read Sluggy Freelance. Everyone gets through a "evil is cool!1" period at some point in their life, and some people never grow out of it.

Behold_the_Void
2009-01-26, 02:27 PM
You know what the problem is?

You, and your brother, are playing with immature idiots who think that Stupid Evil = the best thing since sliced bread. Find better people to play with, not people who, to use a webcomic comparison, think it'd be kickass if Belkar/Black Mage/Richard/Bun-Bun killed everyone and then made hot love to Haley/White Mage/That Troll Girl/No Idea, Tengu Doesn't Read Sluggy Freelance. Everyone gets through a "evil is cool!1" period at some point in their life, and some people never grow out of it.

I must have missed that phase then, I've always gravitated toward good :smalltongue:

But yeah, you definitely need to take it up with your group, you'd be doing fine if you were allowed to play to your strengths. Healing is not one of those strengths.

Morty
2009-01-26, 02:52 PM
I hate to say it, but I think that's my reason. Everything I read about paladins on the boards, because of the other reasons, makes it look like they're the most hated class of the bunch, or just a little thing to dip in on the way to blackguard.


I can honestly say I have no idea where are you coming from with this, but the rest of your post makes me agree with Tengu for once and say that your brother was playing with very immature players. Even the best designed, balanced system worthy of worship by the masses can be ruined by such people.

horseboy
2009-01-26, 03:01 PM
If they're just Leeroy Jenkinsing their way in way ahead of you every time, that's a problem.
Yeah. Let them die a few times. Paladins have never been required to save someone from their own stupidity.

Personally I blame the Alignment system for sticking the pole up there. Having to deal with both the code and the poor alignment rules means you've got two poorly worded restrictions on your back.

I'm still quite fond of paladins, even all these years later. I liked UA's (The first UA) code and tend to use that as my base line for a paladin, then modify it for setting.

I also agree with Tengu, everyone has their "evil" phase. Though mine was just "I don't want to play paladins, I'm just going to play a mounted fighter with lots of drug tolerance (alcohol), that his weapons did holy crits was just coincidence, really.

BRC
2009-01-26, 03:15 PM
It really depends, the thing about paladins is that they are the easiest class for a DM to screw over, simply because most of what adventurers do is kinda borderline evil. Now, for most people one evil act dosn't make you change alignment. Alignment dosn't dictate action, it reflects action. It's not that you did an evil act, so now your evil, it's that you do evil acts consistantly enough that Evil is a better description of you than good or neutral.

However, a paladin, well, imagine a younger sibling that looks for any excuse to tell on you. "You didn't wipe your feet before entering the house, I'm TELLING!" A paladin has that sibling on their shoulder at all times, if at any point they tell on the paladin, they fall. So while most adventurers can easily walk the gray line easily enough while staying good, a paladin basically needs to carry around a checklist, you know.
Ranger: Okay, there are the bandits, lets get 'em
Paladin: Wait, one second. Do the laws of this nation allow vigilante groups to deal with these threats, or should we report them to law enforcement officials? Has a court of law declared these bandits guilty and ordered their execution? Are any of these bandits forced into this due to their social status, merely turning to banditry because it's the only way to feed themselves and their families? Did any of them flee into the woods because of a crime they didn't commit? Are any of them magically or mundanely manipulated into this without knowing better?
Ranger: Hey, while you were busy with your checklist we killed them all and took their stuff.
Paladin: Ah-HA, another victory for the rightous!

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 03:31 PM
So? Remember the backstory? Lead by example, rather than evangelism, and you'll have fewer interparty conflicts. I'd also talk to your DM OOC and see what his opinion on things are, especially if the werewolf character plays Stupid Evil. Most DMs have an issue with interparty fighting. Some don't. Also, it depends on the maturity level of the werewolf. If hes pretty mature, he either shouldn't be upset if he does someting Stupid Evil and you turn him over to the authorities, or shouldn't be doing Stupid Evil things in the first place. If he doesn't play Stupid Evil, you're character shouldn't have a problem with him, as you are probably both struggling for the same cause, and you feel that the struggle is paralleled by the werewolf's own internal struggle between his base werewolf desires for blood and a higher calling. As long as you think he's fighting that fight, you should encourage him toward good, not condemn him. "Smite first, ask questions later" tends to leave you cut in twain and left to bleed out alone at the top of a ruined castle.

Regardless, the best way to deal with him is compassion. Once you judge him, you create tension. Your character understands that he is a misguided soul, and requires a strong moral example to help him see the error of his ways. You can both co-exist, provided the DM and other players are mature enough.

So far the werewolf looks like he wants to coexist. The only reason he became Chaotic Evil to begin with was because he killed a pair of baby werewolves while the party was arguing whether to kill them or spare them, and he thought the debate was taking too long. That ticked off one of the other players (who plays a neutral good elf cleric), and she's been on his case ever since, even threatening to kill him at one point because she thought he was evil, and he was trying to get with the female kobold she'd rescued and was tagging along with her kids.

So far he seems to want to at least try and not be evil. He's going to try and avoid doing evil things, especially acting behind the party's back, and if possible, seeking an Atonement spell or something (he's a sorcerer, so it's not like he fell from grace or anything). I'm going to have my paladin give his kobold a sincere talking-to in-game, encouraging him to seek a cure for his affliction (which won't happen since he specifically wanted to be a kobold lycan), or at least to atone for his sins and try to resist the temptations of evil (which he's definately more receptive to).

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 03:39 PM
You know what the problem is?

You, and your brother, are playing with immature idiots who think that Stupid Evil = the best thing since sliced bread. Find better people to play with, not people who, to use a webcomic comparison, think it'd be kickass if Belkar/Black Mage/Richard/Bun-Bun killed everyone and then made hot love to Haley/White Mage/That Troll Girl/No Idea, Tengu Doesn't Read Sluggy Freelance. Everyone gets through a "evil is cool!1" period at some point in their life, and some people never grow out of it.

And we don't play with those people anymore because most of them have moved or lost interest in D&D.

The group I'm playing the 4e paladin with doesn't think evil is cool, but there seems to be a large number of people who don't think good is cool either. The rogue/warlock is apparently haunted by her murderous past, which also included a love affair with the doppleganger (I don't know if it was a homosexual or heterosexual relationship, given how dopplegangers are). The other rogue grew up on the streets and has suffered so much trauma, from abuse to rape to everything in between, that she seriously believes that hope is foolish, blood is beautiful and that her dagger is her only friend (and she is also my paladin's half-sister, though neither of the characters know this.) The warforged has a real lack of emotion and compassion that he showed when he charged a group of goblins holding a little girl hostage. My paladin cautioned patience and negotiation, but the warforged pulled a Leeroy Jenkins that made the goblins panic, and they slit the girl's throat. My paladin was furious. The wizard doesn't really care about morals as far as I can tell, but she hates idiots and she thinks my paladin is one. The ranger is supposed to be a real lady's man, but his player's never around and there's been talk that the DM plans on kicking him out.

hamishspence
2009-01-26, 03:41 PM
Evil, but trying not to be, isn't all that uncommon. Manual of the planes has a CE sorcerer residing in Celestia, who wants to turn good but "retains many of the attitudes of his former lifestyle"

so, yes, that could work. and a strongly good other character really ought to be supportive of the evil one (BoED has this as a strong theme- redemption for evil)

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 03:43 PM
It really depends, the thing about paladins is that they are the easiest class for a DM to screw over, simply because most of what adventurers do is kinda borderline evil. Now, for most people one evil act dosn't make you change alignment. Alignment dosn't dictate action, it reflects action. It's not that you did an evil act, so now your evil, it's that you do evil acts consistantly enough that Evil is a better description of you than good or neutral.

However, a paladin, well, imagine a younger sibling that looks for any excuse to tell on you. "You didn't wipe your feet before entering the house, I'm TELLING!" A paladin has that sibling on their shoulder at all times, if at any point they tell on the paladin, they fall. So while most adventurers can easily walk the gray line easily enough while staying good, a paladin basically needs to carry around a checklist, you know.
Ranger: Okay, there are the bandits, lets get 'em
Paladin: Wait, one second. Do the laws of this nation allow vigilante groups to deal with these threats, or should we report them to law enforcement officials? Has a court of law declared these bandits guilty and ordered their execution? Are any of these bandits forced into this due to their social status, merely turning to banditry because it's the only way to feed themselves and their families? Did any of them flee into the woods because of a crime they didn't commit? Are any of them magically or mundanely manipulated into this without knowing better?
Ranger: Hey, while you were busy with your checklist we killed them all and took their stuff.
Paladin: Ah-HA, another victory for the rightous!

Kinda sounds like our last gaming session:

Are the griffins evil? Can we negotiate with them? Is it wrong to take their eggs for the empress? What will the empress do with the eggs? Will the griffins be willing to negotiate considering with almost killed them? Should we coerce them to avoid hunting people? Should we kill them? Should we agree with the halfling treehugger (that's seriously his class) and try to keep the griffins and their eggs together, and give the empress three Topiary Guardians instead? Who's turn is it to have a say?

We must have spent one or two hours after the battle arguing the griffins' fate out to decide what was the best!

hamishspence
2009-01-26, 03:45 PM
As long as the resulting solution doesn't seriously annoy half the players, an in-character debate can be interesting. But yes, for some groups, debates can get in the way of the fun.

BoVD takes a "if its trying to kill you/others, killing it is ok if there is no alternative and/or it doesn't surrender, even if actual alignment of it is good, its magically compelled, etc etc"

Translation: even if its an archon- if its trying to kill you/others, you can kill it and not Fall.

BoED takes similar approach, but if enemy does surrender, killing it is assumed to be not OK unless its an actual authorized execution.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 03:49 PM
We ultimately met half-way. We brought the griffin back up to conciousness, tied it up, and had arrows trained on it in case it refused to negotiate. It refused, and we had to put it down. Then we brought the eggs to the empress as promised, and she rejected the halfling's counteroffer of Topiary Guardians (apparently throwing a gay joke into the mix while she was at it.)

Renegade Paladin
2009-01-26, 03:54 PM
Why don't paladins get the respect they deserve!
My friend, I think you really need to read this thread. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045) :smallsmile:

Jothki
2009-01-26, 03:57 PM
Tell them in character to stay back and let you do your job as a warrior. Tell them that you are tired of healing them, and would like them to get less hurt. :smalltongue:

Why bother with even that? As a paladin, you have tools specifically designed to prevent people from rushing past you and attacking targets that you don't want them to attack. :smalltongue:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 04:09 PM
My friend, I think you really need to read this thread. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045) :smallsmile:

I have read it and subscribed to it. My DM doesn't really accept homebrew.:smallfrown:

Narmoth
2009-01-26, 04:41 PM
Come on man, you wanted a strong paladin, I built you a strong paladin (until you mucked it up! :P j/k). Granted, it only has 5 levels of paladin, but thats because it trades up crappy Pally spell casting for the much better Divine Crusader casting.

Which book is it from?
I'm looking for a class to go to for my blackguard that's redeeming himself

Keld Denar
2009-01-26, 05:56 PM
Divine Crusader is in Complete Divine. Its a 10 level PrC that gets 9th level casting, but only from 1 domain. You CAN add spells though, in the usual way. The build I gave him was:

Pal5/Ftr2/DC2/OrdainedChamp4/DC+7

With major feats being Law Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, Divine Might (and Power Attack) and Holy Warrior. Pretty solid, but the feat progression is pretty tight.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-26, 07:31 PM
Oh are they ever tight.

I'll try some of that strategy stuff, but I just hope the goblins don't get into the chapel.

Mark Hall
2009-01-27, 01:44 PM
http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww36/MrNexx/paladin3.jpg

MammonAzrael
2009-01-27, 02:00 PM
You should focus more on rushing into the think of things with a Paladin in 4e, it sounds like. Since you don't have the same Code the 3.5 Paladin does, it's ok for you to make a mistake or two. Or to charge in a smite those evil Goblins to your heart's content.

Also, you're using your Divine Challenge every turn, right? And is your DM just constantly having the baddies ignoring the challenge, or is that actually giving them incentive to focus on you?

I'd also suggest posting in your OoC thread about the issue of tactics, I'm sure your Striker buddies would love to have you taking their hits for them.

In other news, Paladins are awesome. It doesn't matter if they're holy warriors of the gods, or a highly honorable knight, they rock. :smallbiggrin:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-27, 02:18 PM
I...forget to use Divine Challenge...a lot...I KNOW, I'M TERRIBLE!:smalltongue:

Renegade Paladin
2009-01-27, 02:22 PM
I have read it and subscribed to it. My DM doesn't really accept homebrew.:smallfrown:
Then your DM needs to wake up and pay attention; while yes, a lot of homebrew sucks, there are some homebrew designers who do a better job than WotC professionals. In my group, it's the DM's job to evaluate anything that comes to the table within reason, not just nix it because it's homebrew.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-27, 02:30 PM
Hey, my DM for that group was really lenient in allowing non-core sourcebooks. He's allowing me to use stuff from Complete Champion, which he doesn't have.

Keld Denar
2009-01-27, 02:30 PM
I...forget to use Divine Challenge...a lot...I KNOW, I'M TERRIBLE!:smalltongue:

You better not be forgettin to use Knowledge Devotion on your other paladin every fight. Thats just....terribad.

*grumble* something about horses and water *grumble*

MammonAzrael
2009-01-27, 02:31 PM
Well THERE'S your problem! :smallamused:

Seriously, Make like a checklist or something. Divine Challenge is freakin' awesome. And you'll feel like you're doing a lot more damage if you DM just has baddes ignore it, so either way it'll help you contribute by leaps and bounds. :smallbiggrin:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-27, 02:33 PM
I'm sorry I get so caught up in stuff I forget to use the abilities I have!

Renegade Paladin
2009-01-27, 03:34 PM
Hey, my DM for that group was really lenient in allowing non-core sourcebooks. He's allowing me to use stuff from Complete Champion, which he doesn't have.
Which doesn't answer my point. I'm not saying he's a bad DM, I'm saying that material published by WotC isn't necessarily better or even good.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-27, 05:18 PM
What I mean is, he's already made a number of concessions for the kind of character I want to make, and that's just with WOTC materials. Offering up homebrew stuff might stretch him too far. He already has a number of his own houserules and I'm not comfortable with stretching the game too far.

Bryn
2009-01-27, 06:07 PM
Worst-case scenario:
Zousha: Hey, can I use this homebrew version of the Paladin?
DM: No.
Zousha: Alrighty then.

...assuming I'm not missing something, that is.

As for the game in which your brother played a Paladin: that does not sound like the sort of game in which it's worth trying to roleplay matters of morality. Looking at the character descriptions, the players are simply in it for laughs. I've DMed groups like it (including a particularly ridiculous barfight) and it can be a lot of fun, albeit not particularly memorable.

It doesn't mean that the players are stupid, just that they're not interested in taking the game too seriously. A game like that does run a serious risk of ending up with aimless anarchy, and it isn't very satisfying if your after roleplaying or storylines, but it's not badwrong and it can be quite funny in the sheer exaggerated ridiculousness of the players' antics. :smallamused:

As for Paladin mechanics: it's been said, but Crusader (ToB) takes your worries away. It also allows for a lot more control over concept, because you're totally free to follow whatever code you wish and the DM isn't encouraged to take away your powers as a result of you making a mistake. 'Course, that homebrew variant is a perfectly reasonable alternative.

And as a general note: don't take games - any games - too seriously. :smallwink: That statement, of course, being aimed at the entire Internet.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-27, 06:15 PM
Worst-case scenario:
Zousha: Hey, can I use this homebrew version of the Paladin?
DM: No.
Zousha: Alrighty then.

...assuming I'm not missing something, that is.

Well, I've already made and played the character for two sessions, and the DM isn't allowing retraining.


As for the game in which your brother played a Paladin: that does not sound like the sort of game in which it's worth trying to roleplay matters of morality. Looking at the character descriptions, the players are simply in it for laughs. I've DMed groups like it (including a particularly ridiculous barfight) and it can be a lot of fun, albeit not particularly memorable.

It doesn't mean that the players are stupid, just that they're not interested in taking the game too seriously. A game like that does run a serious risk of ending up with aimless anarchy, and it isn't very satisfying if your after roleplaying or storylines, but it's not badwrong and it can be quite funny in the sheer exaggerated ridiculousness of the players' antics. :smallamused:

And I agree with that. My brother wasn't playing his paladin when they did all that anarchic stuff. He was joining right in the madness with a half-dragon vampire sorcerer. Hell, one time he, one of his friends from that group and me tried an epic game where he was his paladin, I was a St. Cuthbert cleric and his friend was some uber-powerful rogue named Gerbil. The sheer ridiculousness and humiliation our characters went through was thigh slapping. Imagine a horde of millions of goblins, with gnome submersibles, juggernauts and great wyrm red dragons. Coming to raid our castles fridge and tag the chapel.


As for Paladin mechanics: it's been said, but Crusader (ToB) takes your worries away. It also allows for a lot more control over concept, because you're totally free to follow whatever code you wish and the DM isn't encouraged to take away your powers as a result of you making a mistake. 'Course, that homebrew variant is a perfectly reasonable alternative.

I'll ask the DM about maybe being a Crusader if my paladin bites it for some reason and can't get rezzed. For now, I'm gonna play Georg Redcrosse, noble paladin of Armorica, and devoted servant of The Archpaladin to the fullest. I gave him an Ahnold Schwartzenegger accent that annoys the hell out of the elf cleric's player.:smallamused:


And as a general note: don't take games - any games - too seriously. :smallwink: That statement, of course, being aimed at the entire Internet.

But...but then what would I have to live for?!:smalltongue:

Keld Denar
2009-01-27, 06:40 PM
I gave him an Ahnold Schwartzenegger accent that annoys the hell out of the elf cleric's player.:smallamused:

Then you never have to worry about permadying. Every time you fall, just grunt and say "I'll be back!" and then make good on it!

Dacia Brabant
2009-01-27, 11:57 PM
I...forget to use Divine Challenge...a lot...I KNOW, I'M TERRIBLE!:smalltongue:

*facepalm*

Well, at least you know you should be using this. There's one tactic I've seen on this board that may be good for you to use with your group: every time your rogue/warlock DMPC Mary Sue goes rushing in to combat, Divine Challenge the monster she's attacking and flank it with her. Then that way every time she Eldritch Blasts or uses another power that draws an Opportunity Attack, the monster will have to decide whether to attack her and take the mark's damage or just sit there and get hit.

This'll work with other Strikers that rush in but probably the best with her or any other one that can trigger the Opportunity Attack/Divine Challenge dilemma. But yeah, no matter what you should have DC on something that another party member is fighting every round--maybe always use it off of one particular PC's targets if that'll help you remember it.


As for Paladin mechanics: it's been said, but Crusader (ToB) takes your worries away. It also allows for a lot more control over concept, because you're totally free to follow whatever code you wish and the DM isn't encouraged to take away your powers as a result of you making a mistake. 'Course, that homebrew variant is a perfectly reasonable alternative.

Hmm, I'm not a fan of Crusaders personally, partly because of the fluff but mostly I just hate their mechanic for getting and recharging maneuvers--I don't like anything that restricts my control over which of my character's abilities he can use. That and it just seems too chaotic for what they're supposed to represent.

At any rate, Keld gave him a very workable Paladin build so I'd stick with that for now if he can. Much love for Pallies with Knowledge Devotion. :smallbiggrin:

Khanderas
2009-01-28, 03:30 AM
Then you never have to worry about permadying. Every time you fall, just grunt and say "I'll be back!" and then make good on it!That is so good it's horrible. Or so bad it's good.
Still not decided.:smallsmile:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-01-28, 10:58 AM
*facepalm*

Well, at least you know you should be using this. There's one tactic I've seen on this board that may be good for you to use with your group: every time your rogue/warlock DMPC Mary Sue goes rushing in to combat, Divine Challenge the monster she's attacking and flank it with her. Then that way every time she Eldritch Blasts or uses another power that draws an Opportunity Attack, the monster will have to decide whether to attack her and take the mark's damage or just sit there and get hit.

This'll work with other Strikers that rush in but probably the best with her or any other one that can trigger the Opportunity Attack/Divine Challenge dilemma. But yeah, no matter what you should have DC on something that another party member is fighting every round--maybe always use it off of one particular PC's targets if that'll help you remember it.

As far as I can tell, she's not really a Mary Sue. She's always been the closest to death out of all of us. I'm not so sure about flanking her right now though. I'd get in the fighter's way, since he just has to move a little so he's standing right next to her. I'm on her other side, so I was thinking of laying down a Divine Challenge on the goblin warrior next to her to keep it off her back.