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JellyPooga
2009-01-26, 05:59 AM
I was thinking about Lycanthropes and it occured to me that Wererats based on Rats rather than Dire Rats could make an excellent villain race. Their low low Str in Hybrid form would make them cowardly custards (always a good trait in a villain), their small size and multiple movement forms (land, climb and swim) means they can get absolutely everywhere, their humanoid form means they can blend perfectly into normal society (more or less) and being based on rats, I figured their reproductive rate would be through the roof (i.e. there's be lots of them)...kinda like GW's Skaven but better at infiltrating society. Added to that, they shouldn't be underestimated as their DR/Silver makes them surprisingly tough if you do manage to corner one in a fight. However I ran into a couple of problems:

1) Base Race. Rats being Tiny animals would need a race that is Small, Tiny or Diminutive for a Base Race. An obvious choice would be Gnomes or Halflings as they're straight out of the PHB and a common sight in most settings, but their racial Strength penalty combined with the -8 Strength when in Animal or Hybrid form just seemed too crippling! So I've been wracking my brains to come up with a Small race (I don't kid myself that I'll find a Tiny or Diminutive race) without a Strength penalty or even with a Strength bonus. Any ideas (gotta be of Giant or Humanoid Type)?

2) Animal HD. Rats only have 1/4 HD. How does that work in relation to the Lycanthrope template which adds the animal HD to your total? Would it be easiest to either round it down or up (i.e. add 0 HD or add 1 full HD)? Or do you actually get +1/4 HD? To me, the most former of those is more intuitive (i.e. to round down, adding 0 HD) as the physical stat modifiers for rats are not as good as would be expected for a lycanthrope. Thus, you get the mild bonus of not having to take an animal HD (which are, lets face it, crap) for that -8 Str.

Thoughts? Comments?

Cheers,

JP

Reaper_Monkey
2009-01-26, 08:08 AM
Like the idea! (I'm a fan of rats though, more so hybrid rats).

A rat has a HD of D2, its one hit die, its just a low one. The reason its stated as 1/4 HD is because its a 1/4 of a D8, so either 1 or 2, thus a D2, but its unprofessional to flip coins at the table as they aint really a *die*.

As for races, no idea, almost all small races will have *some* strength penalty because of size, so unless you find something stout but tough, then you've got to accept that these are not going to be heavy hitters under any circumstances, and their loads will always be kept to a minimum... using magic to shrink items, or just being much more evasive in combat so they cant be hit and add dex to attacks will be the way forward I think. (look in the dungeonscape book for Gnome Tunnel Acrobatics feats and similar for entertaining fighting techniques that will be perfect for this race).

Hope that gets the ball rolling, I'll pop back later if I think of anything else of worth =)

JellyPooga
2009-01-26, 09:22 AM
A rat has a HD of D2, its one hit die, its just a low one. The reason its stated as 1/4 HD is because its a 1/4 of a D8, so either 1 or 2, thus a D2, but its unprofessional to flip coins at the table as they aint really a *die*.

I'd beg to differ on this point. Whilst functionally, you are correct, all Animal HD are d8 (check out the Animal Type in the glossary of your MM). The problem is, is that there's no rule (that I know of at least) handling partial HD. Almost everything that has partial HD has no racial HD advancement, though some have Advancement by Character Class to replace their partial HD with Class HD. This case is one of the few examples where a partial HD becomes a problem and whilst your ruling of "count it as a single d2 HD" does fix the problem, it does make my wererats even more duff than they already are! I was really more interested in an actual RAW ruling on the subject, if anyone knew of one.


As for races, no idea, almost all small races will have *some* strength penalty because of size, so unless you find something stout but tough, then you've got to accept that these are not going to be heavy hitters under any circumstances, and their loads will always be kept to a minimum... using magic to shrink items, or just being much more evasive in combat so they cant be hit and add dex to attacks will be the way forward I think. (look in the dungeonscape book for Gnome Tunnel Acrobatics feats and similar for entertaining fighting techniques that will be perfect for this race).

Hope that gets the ball rolling, I'll pop back later if I think of anything else of worth =)

I don't think there's any chance that these guys are going to be melee fighters in any way, regardless of Base Race...about the best they could do would be to spam gang-rape techniques such as Swarm Fighting, Underfoot Combat and Wolf Pack. It was more just to keep their Strength above 1 really...I mean, 2 is low enough for a Small Hybrid Form, but 1 is just pathetic! As far as combat goes, these little guys are definitely going to be using hit-and-run tactics, preferably with ranged weapons and/or magic, combined with cunning ambushes and traps...anything to keep themselves out of harms way!

I have been having a think on races and one thing that did kind of appeal was using the variant Kobolds that have the Slight Build and Natural Weapons (Bite and 2 Claws) racial features. Although it doesn't solve the Strength problem in any way, Str can't go lower than 1, so the difference between -8 and -12 isn't going to be all that huge. The Constitution penalty hurts a little, but again, DR:10/Silver gives them that little bit of extra durability. The Dex boost helps, for a total of +6 dex in Animal/Hybrid form, as does the +1 Natural Armour (that's a total of +8 to AC in Animal form without armour/magic, I believe). More importantly, the Slight Build feature, which they keep in all forms means that they can get though really small gaps...making them formidable to try and track down to destroy their lair...not a lot of adventurers can easily get through diminutive or even fine(?) gaps! Also, given the Kobolds' racial bonus on Mining and Trapmaking, they could quite easily craft themselves a very tricky (and interesting) dungeon lair for adventurers to invade...we're likely talking lots of Reduce Person spells (at least...if I'm feeling kind :smallamused:) needed to navigate it, inflicting both a resource and time limit problem...either that or they need to find a way of blasting/hacking their way through whilst being mobbed by hundreds of Lycanthropy Inflicting foes!

Admittedly, Kobolds would suffer when it comes to infiltrating society, but I suspect that magic (what with the Kobold prediliction for Sorcery) will cover that deficiency (a simple Alter/Disguise Self spell solves it neatly).

RandomLunatic
2009-01-26, 10:58 AM
Posion Dusk Lizardfolk (MM3) do not have a strenght penalty.

JellyPooga
2009-01-26, 01:28 PM
Posion Dusk Lizardfolk (MM3) do not have a strenght penalty.

That's true, I hadn't thought of them. They get racial proficiency with nets and bolas too...but then, they're based on Str checks to be effective, so that's not so useful, unless I have them use lots of assists. Poison Use and their Racial bonuses to skills is handy too I guess. The LA hurts a little, but that's not really an issue given that I'm not making PC's...worth considering, certainly.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-26, 01:55 PM
Feats-wise, you could make them really nasty by giving them some of the following:

Titan Fighting (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Titan_Fighting,RS) on a wererat gnome in rat form means +4 more dodge AC versus anything Small or larger. Sure, it's got a prerequisite of Dodge, but as we know, Dodge can be replaced by Expeditious Dodge (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Expeditious_Dodge,RW) (which in this instance would mean a total of +6 dodge AC versus Small or larger creatures every time you moved at least 10'). Dodge also leads to...

Elusive Target (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Elusive_Target,CW), which can be used to dodge Power Attack and generally sow confusion.

Giantbane (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Giantbane,CW)'s Climb Aboard ability also replicates a rat's fighting style rather nicely. Not only that, but it'll apply to anything Medium or larger. This also synergizes nicely with...

Underfoot Combat (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Underfoot_Combat,RW), since it'll mean that the Climb Aboard -4 penalty will apply to the creature you're riding as well as the +4 AC, for a net effective +8 AC versus your mount and +4 against everyone else. And if your mount happens to move 10', then you get another +6 if you're using the Expeditious Dodge + Titan Fighting combo above. Underfoot Combat is also a prerequisite for...

Confound the Big Folk (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Confound_The_Big_Folk,all). This allows you to use Climb Aboard to not only do the AC shenanigans above, but also flat-foots your mount. If you happen to have Sneak Attack, now's an excellent time to use it. It also gives you the opportunity to trip your mount if you so choose.

avr
2009-01-26, 05:36 PM
A halfling weremonkey rogue works. 2 claws and a bite can deliver quite a few sneak attacks or they can snipe from above, and monkeys get a whole 1d8 HD. Sneaky as can be, too.

JellyPooga
2009-01-26, 05:44 PM
A halfling weremonkey rogue works. 2 claws and a bite can deliver quite a few sneak attacks or they can snipe from above, and monkeys get a whole 1d8 HD. Sneaky as can be, too.

Yeah but monkeys don't live in the sewers! Besides, I've never liked the idea of primates as the Base Animal for lycanthropes...it just doesn't fit right in my mind.


...Feats 'n' Stuff...

Good suggestions for melee feats, but that -4 to damage rolls (but not to hit; they all have Weapon Finesse as Bonus Feats...one of the perks of taking Rat as the Base Animal!) just makes melee unviable without some kind of extra damage like Sneak Attack or Skirmsh...

...actually, come to think of it, when is the "you always deal at least 1 point of damage if you hit" rule applied? Is it before or after precision damage (like Sneak Attack) is rolled (i.e. is it [weapon+str (minimum 1)]+precision OR [weapon+str+precision (minimum 1)])? If the former, my wererat Rogues could be fairly effective melee chappies with the right Feat selection. I suppose even if it is the latter, they could be effective at higher levels when the precision damage far outweighs the -4 for Str.

Having said that, I still think my main focus should be on ranged combat and spells...I don't envision a large number of high level critters here, more along the lines of lots'n'lots of lower level ones with a couple of higher level dudes as leaders. I know it kinda wastes the DR/Silver but I'm making these by theme rather than just making them super-mega-death-lords-of-doom...and melee just doesn't fit the "cowardly" aspect that I had in mind.

JellyPooga
2009-01-27, 06:00 AM
Is there any reson why I couldn't use a Rat Swarm as the base animal (RAW)...could make an interesting variation that's a helluva lot tougher (Immune to Piercing/Slashing + DR:10/Silver = DR:10/Silver and Bludgeoning...unless they're toting silver warhammers, that's gonna be an obstacle for any low to mid level party)