I know what happens now [SPOILER]

[Jan Mattys]

- V doesn't believe in Qarr's ability to be helpful in his research.
- Qarr talks V into believing it / trying it.
- V tries again to scry for Haley, maybe using some blood or other strange ingredient suggested by Qarr
- V succeedes, simply because the Cloister spell has vanished.
- V is convinced of Qarr's usefulness
- V turns makes a deal with the hellish forces because they are clearly helpful
...
...
- V does something that makes hir look quite evil
...
...
- V eventually finds out about the Cloister spell from Celia and/or Haley
- Thanks to that, V regains hir composure just before unleashing his power on the party (for some reason)
- V turns on hir evil masters and goes Magic Berserk on them
- V rejoins the good guys for the final showdown

[Kaytara]

There is one big problem with your prediction. Vaarsuvius needs power (and may consider sealing a deal with the devil) in order to contact Haley. If V successfully contacts Haley, V will no longer have any need of fiendish assistance.

Making a deal with the hellish forces "because they are clearly helpful" when V no longer has any need of them would be out of character, since up till now Vaarsuvius has been very wary of anything Qarr has to offer.

In short, Vaarsuvius isn't the type of person to voluntarily seek out hellish assistance unless he's very desperate. If he is no longer desperate, he'll no longer consider it.

[Surprise!]

There is however, V's need for expediency. Having barred teleportation, it would take an agonizingly long journey to fly to Greysky city when Roy is obviously in close proximity to being raised. Her desire to continue with the main plot might invoke an "ends justify the means" attitude that she has shown before. Perhaps following Qarr through the Abysmal Planes as a short cut, only to be trapped until her loose hold on sanity is lost.

Or perhaps Qarr will only require V's help in his project for the price of the teleportation, and perhaps once he explains it to her, she will not balk at it as much.

If V was not to fall, then the Giant has certainly down a great deal of foreshadowing and teasing to the contrary. I guess it would be just as valid to assume it is one long "GOTCHA" sub-plot. But that waste of time and mental energy spent in speculation would make V weep!

[Kaytara]

A lot of people are suggesting that Durkon's Sending will arrive and Vaarsuvius will look to Qarr to teleport him back.
As Surprise! pointed out, there is any number of ways such a deal could go wrong for V. Qarr could teleport him to some very unpleasant place on the Material Plane instead or even just Plane Shift him to Hell before V can react to what's being cast. In such a situation, Vaarsuvius would no longer be able to drive a hard bargain on anything.

But come on, do you really think V would fall for that?
Given V's present wariness and caution in dealing with the imp, I'm sure he's smart enough to realize that and not crazy enough to do it anyway. He's not going to let that imp anywhere near him if he can help it.

[TheBST]

Let's face it, there is nothing Qarr can say to make V believe or negotiate with him- I mean his creature type alone...

One possible (read: improbable) sequence of events:

-Qarr's activities with V and the fleet calls the attention of his superiors in the Hells
-The Arch-Demons are too powerful for V to combat, so he/she chooses to hear what they have to say.
-They inform him that they are aware of the Gates and The Snarl thanks to Sabine. However, Nale and Sabine have, during the time skip, found their way to Girard's Gate and are tampering with it.
-Not wishing to be destroyed along with the rest of the multiverse, they offer a bargain with V: they'll grant him one use of an unblockable Sending spell to contact Haley on the condition that V travels to Girard's Gate immediately to halt Nale and Sabine's actions. giving V directions to it.

[Kaytara]

If the devils are too powerful for V to best in combat, there's no reason why they can't go themselves. :smallamused: It's also surprisingly... non-evil for a bargain with the devil. If Nale and Sabine are messing with the Gate, Vaarsuvius and the Order would be interested in stopping them anyway.

Also, this seems to assume that Qarr's masters are cooperating with Sabine, which assumes that Sabine is a devil. I doubt the ambiguity of her creature type is going to be resolved that easily.

[TheBST]

If the devils are too powerful for V to best in combat, there's no reason why they can't go themselves. :smallamused:

Because, due to Snarl's power, they'd rather send in a pawn?



It's also surprisingly... non-evil for a bargain with the devil.

Who says demons can't be pragmatists? Plus what other kind of bargain would V even consider?



If Nale and Sabine are messing with the Gate, Vaarsuvius and the Order would be interested in stopping them anyway.

True but providing the location and having contact with the order would give the demons an inside into events which will determine the fate of the multiverse. Also if Sabine's backstabbed them, they'd probably want a hand in her destruction too.



Also, this seems to assume that Qarr's masters are cooperating with Sabine, which assumes that Sabine is a devil. I doubt the ambiguity of her creature type is going to be resolved that easily.

OK you got me there.

[David Argall]

Something mentioned in a spoiler should be discussed in a spoiler.


Let's face it, there is nothing Qarr can say to make V believe or negotiate with him- I mean his creature type alone...
There are a variety of things Qarr might be able to offer, particularly if we assume access to his superiors who will back up his promises.


One possible (read: improbable) sequence of events:

-They inform him that they are aware of the Gates and The Snarl thanks to Sabine. they offer a bargain with V: they'll grant him one use of an unblockable Sending spell to contact Haley on the condition that V travels to Girard's Gate immediately to halt Nale and Sabine's actions. giving V directions to it.
But why have they waited to make this offer? This offer would have worked great before Kubota got killed. Then the offer would have advanced two goals.
Here, as elsewhere, Qarr is acting as if he had no knowledge of the Snarl or the gates. He and Sabine do not have masters in common.

[TheBST]

But why have they waited to make this offer? This offer would have worked great before Kubota got killed. Then the offer would have advanced two goals. Here, as elsewhere, Qarr is acting as if he had no knowledge of the Snarl or the gates. He and Sabine do not have masters in common.

Unaware of V's location? Perhaps demons/devils are able to keep tabs on their own servants with ease but find it harder to track humanoids. It's not unreasonable to say that Sabine and Qarr have the same masters or the same level of evil middle management to report to. We really don't know much about the heirachy of the Hells in this comic.

We know the managers of Hell do send evil creatures to help and sponsor evil beings in the mortal realms (this is why Sabine is with Nale after all), it's likely that this is why Qarr was with Kubota. However, it's like Qarr said, Kubota was a good pawn once, but his power waned with the fall of Azure CIty. And then Kubota was killed by an even more powerful being- one who did not rely on political systems for power- V. This may be is what drew the Archfiend's attention to V, timed with the possible realization that Sabine and Nale have Girard's Gate.

Yes there are holes, but it's the best I could've come with right now if I was writing the comic. Whatever Rich comes up with is going to be miles better.

[enarch3t]

Man, when Belkar dies and this is what we're left with . . . It will be a dark day for the comic.

[magic9mushroom]

Several in this thread seem to be confusing "demons" and "devils". The two are not the same, and in D&D are indeed opposed to each other. Qarr is an imp and hence a devil. It's not known which Sabine is, but all the signs point to demon (general Chaotic attitude, powers specific to succubi).

So they likely aren't on the same side.

Also, Nale and Sabine are going to Kraagor's Gate IIRC.

[Finwe]

Several in this thread seem to be confusing "demons" and "devils". The two are not the same, and in D&D are indeed opposed to each other. Qarr is an imp and hence a devil. It's not known which Sabine is, but all the signs point to demon (general Chaotic attitude, powers specific to succubi).

So they likely aren't on the same side.

Also, Nale and Sabine are going to Kraagor's Gate IIRC.

I don't think it's been specified where they're going.

[Kish]

I knew the claim in this thread title was a mistake, but wow.

[Roc Ness]

What about Leeky and Pompey? We haven't seen them in ages and judging the magic needed to control the gates, they should be pretty major characters

[Kish]

What about Leeky and Pompey? We haven't seen them in ages and judging the magic needed to control the gates, they should be pretty major characters
Huh? Why would we ever see them again?

[magic9mushroom]

Huh? Why would we ever see them again?

Because they're an unresolved plot thread from after Cerebus.

[David Argall]

Unaware of V's location? Perhaps demons/devils are able to keep tabs on their own servants with ease but find it harder to track humanoids.
Now when one has to make entirely unsupported guesses to make the theory work, the theory is in bad trouble. Here, V is on the same ship as Hinjo, and something that Qarr had to be aware of. So the fiendish ability to track humans is not going to fix the hole in the theory.



It's not unreasonable to say that Sabine and Qarr have the same masters or the same level of evil middle management to report to. We really don't know much about the heirachy of the Hells in this comic.
We don't need to know anything at all. What we can see is the behavior of Kubota.
Kubota's strategy is to leave the city and just wait for Xykon to get bored and leave, after killing a number of Kubota's enemies who are too dumb to leave, after which Kubota can rule Azure City. Sabine would know this strategy would not work. Xykon has no intention of leaving town [until after the gate is destroyed, which Xykon wants to avoid.], so Kubota just can't win this way. So Sabine's information never got to Kubota.
If Kubota had been aware of the Gate, his strategy would have been sharply different. He starts off by bravely volunteering to defend the walls to the death. He can mean this [ignoring a few assassination attempts on Hinjo during the siege], or he can be planning to sell out to Xykon, but either way, he has a potential to come out the winner.



Yes there are holes, but it's the best I could've come with right now if I was writing the comic.
The problem is that it simply does not fit the facts we have. Nor does it fit the needs of the story. We need something more for Qarr than just being a temporary messenger boy.

[TheBST]

Curse you, Argall and your blasted 'logic'.

[Roc Ness]

Huh? Why would we ever see them again?

Because it was stated that you need arcane and divine magic to control the gates, and since Kraagor's gate is full of nasty monsters wouldn't it give leeky and pompey (do not forget that leeky hired pompey as a cohort) plenty of training?

[Kish]

Because it was stated that you need arcane and divine magic to control the gates, and since Kraagor's gate is full of nasty monsters wouldn't it give leeky and pompey (do not forget that leeky hired pompey as a cohort) plenty of training?
There are a lot of arcane and divine casters in the world.

Leeky and Pompey know nothing about the Gates, as far as we know. Pompey is what--level five? Less? Wherever they're going, I doubt they much care about the Order now.

[Berserk Monk]

By the title of this forum, I thought you were going to make a prediction about V getting ultimate arcane power by saying to Qarr "I will help you," so the imp would summon a devil and kill the dragon. But about your theory, I don't see it happening.