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Atrelegis
2009-01-26, 02:50 PM
Okay, so my team is dangerously close to the end of their campaign and I want them to have a final battle that will give them suspense, shouting and probably a couple of dead chars.

Anyway, the idea is that the characters must stop a number of outsiders (in this case, probably, inevitables), from letting loose a terrible terrible thing from the earth, for the sake of destroying greyhawk before a greater evil is made manifest.

My troupe is an ecl 16 team, consisting of a lvl 12 sorcerer, scout/ranger, fighter/barbarian (he got pounce) and a cleric.

I first thought of using 4 kolyaruts, which give them an equal ecl, but since this is the final battle and it must be DA BOMB, I wanted to ask a few questions and for some advice:

-Are the inevitables, in and of themselves, going to be worthwile opponents, or will I botch it up, giving them a slighlty challenging task?

-I do not want to increase the ecl of the monsters, so instead I was thinking of adding a slowly decaying landscape (rocks falling, etc), to increase the ecl accordingly.

Any other suggestions?

Adumbration
2009-01-26, 03:00 PM
Get a bunch of mooks to go along. They won't up the CR or the difficulty significantly, but they will make the battle last longer and eat up more resources. Since I can't remember seeing low CR inevitables, you may have to use other outsiders, homebrew, or get mercenaries/supporting organization to go along.

Keld Denar
2009-01-26, 03:12 PM
Ok, so your party all have an ECL of 16, which puts your Average Party Level (APL) at 16. A typical single boss encounter would be about EL=APL+3, or EL19 then, and a typical multiple boss encounter would be EL=APL+4 or EL20. If you give them an EL16 encounter, they probably won't even use 25% of their resources. EL is discribed in the DMG, go take a look to see how EL should compare to APL different cases.

Now, if you really like Inevitables, but want something with a little more oomph, check out these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91492). New Inevitables with a bit of different flavor home-cooked by Afroakuma. A Varakhut on the 2nd page is CR19, which would make a solo boss for the party. Otherwise a Samsarut with 8 Alxialut and pair of Kolyaruts would be about EL20.

Make sense?

Atrelegis
2009-01-26, 03:19 PM
Ok, so your party all have an ECL of 16, which puts your Average Party Level (APL) at 16. A typical single boss encounter would be about EL=APL+3, or EL19 then, and a typical multiple boss encounter would be EL=APL+4 or EL20. If you give them an EL16 encounter, they probably won't even use 25% of their resources. EL is discribed in the DMG, go take a look to see how EL should compare to APL different cases.
Make sense?

Thanks for the monsters, but it has been my experience tnot to try and overcome the party's ecl usually. I once attempted that at their 11 ecl, by pitting them against a cr 13 monster and they had their asses handed to them.

I was a bit skeptic about matching the ecls, so thanks a lot for the clarification, but I'd rather give them a hard battle (cr 18-19) than an impossible one (cr 20). The original idea would be that they fought Zargon the returner from elder evils, but then I reconsidered and decided on another battle altogether. Since Zargon's cr is 16, I was thinking that an ecl 16 battle would be a logical boss fight level.

TheCountAlucard
2009-01-26, 03:39 PM
You might try having a swarm or two of Clockwork Menders (MMIV) for each Inevitable. They won't make the encounter too difficult, due to their relatively poor combat capabilities, but they can make each Inevitable individually last a little longer, making the fight more memorable.

Keld Denar
2009-01-26, 04:57 PM
Yea, what EL to throw at your party does depend a lot on their level of optimization and skill. I built a group of APL11 characters that could easily take down an EL17 group of monsters, and could probably gank a single Balor without too much trouble. If your party consists of a Ninja, a Monk, a CW Samurai, and a Truenamer, then naturally you gotta bring the challenge down. I noticed you mentioned that they are ECL16, yet the sorcerer only has 12 levels, that means he's probably got a template that doesn't contribute a whole lot to his effectiveness. Still, a full BAB Fighter/Barb with pounce and a decent cleric supported by a sorcerer who knows any other spell than fireball shouldn't have much trouble against something at or above their APL.

You should read up the section of the DMG about challenges. APL = EL encounters are supposed to be 4/day before the party gets low on spells and other resources. APL +1 = EL encounters are supposed to be about 3/day. APL+4 is a 1/day encounter, like a boss type encounter, with multiple foes. If there is a single foe, you should reduce it to APL+3 = EL because big single high CR foes tend to have the ability to 1 shot PCs, and nobody likes to be 1shoted.

Anyway, happy to have helped, best of luck!

AslanCross
2009-01-26, 05:22 PM
I always like throwing in a mix of baddies for the final encounter. That way the PCs are kept guessing as to what their capabilities are.

I'm also of the opinion that monsters in the final battle should be as odd as possible. If the PCs have been fighting say, hobgoblins throughout the entire campaign, any hobgoblins who should appear in the final battle should be totally distinct and awesome.

I always have a few "roles" that I assign to monsters in the final encounter. Here's an example from my current campaign:

(The Black and the Purple players: No entry.)

"The Quality of Tyranny" (EL 17)
BBEG: Half-fiend Ogre Mage Warlock 6/Crusader 4. CR 15. (I used the redone Ogre Mage posted on the WOTC site some time ago.) He has an even mix of physical and magical abilities, and his flight makes him more difficult to pin down.

Dragon: The "dragon" is, as per TVTropes, a significant physical threat who might even be stronger than the BBEG. In my case, the dragon is a Fighter 1/Warblade 10/Paladin (LE) 2; see Fax Celestis's mantle paladin. She's a very fast, significant physical threat who could cut PCs down. She can attack more than the BBEG, and has significant damage-dealing ability.

Controller: (borrowing from 4E terminology here) Drow Wizard 5/Incantatar 7. He can slow down the PCs to make them vulnerable, but is not necessarily the most significant threat. He can basically make the PCs go where he wants.

Artillery: Hobgoblin Gunmage 10. This guy's the oddball here. He is also able to give control ability, but his primary role here is blasting, delivering damage at range.

Terrain: The entire battle is set on the deck of an airship above the capital city. The wind is strong, and it's highly likely that getting knocked off the deck will mean certain death. Rigging allows characters to climb up the masts (which is very dangerous, but cool), and the ship would bank and shudder as the BBEG's ritual is gradually completed.

I have a party of 5 12th-level PCs. (Paladin/Crusader, Ranger/Swordsage, Rogue/Swordsage, Cleric, Wizard)
I know the difficulty's pretty high, but the final arc's going to be pretty easy, with the PCs plowing through a few low-level encounters before they get to the last two. Furthermore, the PCs have a lot of staying power. A lot of times the cleric doesn't even cast anything, only using Touch of Healing to replenish the party. She's definitely going to have to burn through a lot of her spells here.