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2009-01-26, 07:22 PM
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Seeds Known
1st | +0 | +0 | +0 | +2 | Spellweaving, Living Spellseed Familiar | 1
2nd | +1 | +0 | +0 | +3 | Bonus Feat | 2
3rd | +1 | +1 | +1 | +3 | - | 2
4th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | Spell Shielding +1 | 3
5th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | Seed Secret | 3
6th | +3 | +2 | +2 | +5 | Bonus Feat | 4
7th | +3 | +2 | +2 | +5 | Spell Shielding +2 | 4
8th | +4 | +2 | +2 | +6 | Seed Secret | 5
9th | +4 | +3 | +3 | +6 | - | 5
10th | +5 | +3 | +3 | +7 | Bonus Feat, Spell Shielding +3 | 6
11th | +5 | +3 | +3 | +7 | Seed Secret | 6
12th | +6/+1 | +4 | +4 | +8 | - | 7
13th | +6/+1 | +4 | +4 | +8 | Spell Shielding +4 | 7
14th | +7/+2 | +4 | +4 | +9 | Seed Secret, Bonus Feat | 8
15th | +7/+2 | +5 | +5 | +9 | - | 8
16th | +8/+3 | +5 | +5 | +10 | Spell Shielding +5 | 9
17th | +8/+3 | +5 | +5 | +10 | Seed Secret | 9
18th | +9/+4 | +6 | +6 | +11 | Bonus Feat | 10
19th | +9/+4 | +6 | +6 | +11 | Spell Shielding +6 | 10
20th | +10/+5 | +6 | +6 | +12 | Seed Secret | 11[/table]

HD: d4

Prowess: 2 per level

Skills: A sorceror uses the Mage skill set and chooses one other set. A sorceror gains 4 plus their Intelligence modifier skill points per level.

Proficiencies: A sorceror is proficient with all simple weapons and with light armor, but not shields.

Seeds: A first-level sorceror knows one seed from the list below and gains a new seed at second level and every two levels after that (at 2nd, 4th, 6th, and so on). A sorceror uses these seeds to craft spells using the Spellweaving ability, below. Each seed has a number of different abilities available for purchase at a certain point value, as well as having a fundamental shape and saving throw type.

Spellweaving (Su): As a standard action, a sorceror can craft and cast a spell. By activating this ability, the sorceror immediately gains a number of Spellweave Points (SP) equal to three plus their sorceror level plus their Charisma modifier. These points may be immediately spent upon weaving a spell from the seeds a sorceror knows. Any points left over at the end of the sorceror's turn dissipate harmlessly.

When crafting a spell, a sorceror may purchase any number of abilities from seeds he knows as long as he can afford their total cost. Thus a fifth level sorceror with a 16 Charisma and who knows the Fire, Ice, and Hex seeds could use this ability as a standard action to obtain 11 SP. With that 11 SP, he could then cause his spell to deal 2d6 fire (for 6 SP) and 1d6 cold (for 3 SP), but would have two points left over. If he instead had an 18 Charisma, using this ability would net him 12 SP, which he could then use to cast a spell that dealt 4d6 fire (12 SP), or a different spell that dealt 3d6 cold (9 SP) and inflicted a -2 penalty to saving throws (3 SP). Any combination, therefore, is possible, as long as the sorceror knows the correct seeds and has enough SP.

The base shape for most spells is "Target", indicating it affects a single target within the sorceror's line of effect. If, when utilizing multiple seeds, multiple base shapes are used, default to the first shape present on this list: touch, ray, target, line, cone, sphere. An exception to this rule is when a seed specifically changes a spell's shape, such as the Sphere, Cone, or Line seeds.

If multiple types of saves are needed, then the target must make separate saving throws (a maximum of one for each type required) or suffer the effects tied to that save. For instance, a sorceror casts a spell dealing 1d6 fire (from the Fire seed) and 1d6 cold (from the Ice seed) at a second level rogue. The rogue makes the Reflex save but fails the Fortitude save. If they didn't have Evasion, the rogue would take half damage from the fire effect but full damage from the cold effect; however, since the rogue has Evasion, the rogue ignores the fire damage but takes full cold damage.

Casting a spell in this fashion provokes an attack of opportunity. The save DC for a spell cast in this fashion is 10 + 1/2 the sorcreor's level + his Charisma modifier. Unless otherwise noted, the range on a sorceror’s spell using this ability is 25’ plus 5’ per sorceror level.

Spellweaving is affected by arcane spell failure chance. A sorceror wearing light armor and not using a shield may ignore his armor's spell failure chance.

Living Spellseed Familiar: At first level, a sorceror obtains a living spellseed familiar. This living spellseed familiar is a normal creature of its type (according to the living spellseed familiar template) except that it must be a seed that the sorceror knows. As a sorceror only knows one seed at first level, the living spellseed familiar therefore must utilize that seed.

The living spellseed familiar also increases in power according to the sorceror's sorceror caster level, as shown on the following table:

{table=head]Caster Level | Bonus HD | Deflection AC Bonus | Special
1-3 | +0 | +0 | Alertness, Improved Evasion, Telepathic Link
4-7 | +2 | +1 | Speak With Living Spellseeds
8-10 | +4 | +2 | Bonus Seed
11-13 | +6 | +3 | Spell Resistance
14-16 | +8 | +4 | Bonus Seed
17-19 | +10 | +5 | -
20+ | +12 | +6 | Bonus Seed[/table]

Bonus HD: These are bonus Avatar HD, and as such provide d8 HD, base attack bonus equal to 3/4 their HD (like a cleric), a good Will save, and 2+Int skills per HD.

Deflection AC Bonus: This is a deflection bonus to the living spellseed's AC.

Alertness: While a living spellseed familiar is within 5' of its master, both the spellseed and its master gain a +3 bonus on Awareness checks.

Improved Evasion: A living spellseed familiar has the improved evasion ability. See the rogue class feature of the same name.

Telepathic Link: Living spellseed familiars that are within 100' of their master may communicate with them telepathically.

Speak with Living Spellseeds: A living spellseed with this ability can communicate with other living spellseeds within 50' telepathically.

Bonus Seed: Each time a living spellseed gains this ability, it gains access to an additional seed that its master knows. It may utilize this seed while using its spellweaving ability, but does not gain any other properties of the seed (such as subtypes or extra damage on attacks).

Spell Resistance: A spellseed with this ability gains Spell Resistance equal to 10 + twice it's HD.

Bonus Feat: At 2nd level and every 4 levels thereafter (6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th), the sorceror gains a bonus feat chosen fron the following list: Dodge, Combat Casting, Extra Seed, Extra Seed Secret, Intelligent Targeting, Perceptive Spellweaving, Reflexive Spellweaving, Residual Spellweaving, Seed Focus, Skill Focus, Weapon Focus. He must still meet all of the feat's prerequisites.

Spell Shielding (Su): A sorceror is well-versed in the inner workings of magic and therefore is better able to defend himself against them. At 4th level, the sorceror gains a +1 bonus on saves versus arcane spells, cartomancy, and spellwoven spells. This bonus does not apply against spell-like or supernatural abilities that mimic spells, nor does it apply against items that mimic spells--it does, however, apply against items that cast spells, like a wand. This bonus increases by 1 every three levels thereafter (to +2 at 7th, +3 at 10th, +4 at 13th, +5 at 16th, and +6 at 19th).

Seed Secret (Ex): At fifth level and each three levels thereafter (8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 20th), the sorceror gains the knowledge of the inner workings of one of his seeds. He selects one secret from a seed he knows. When casting a spell using his Spellweaving class feature, he may apply one or more seed secrets to spells that he casts.

In order to apply a seed secret, he must utilize the seed that the secret is associated with: therefore, a sorceror could not cast a spell that dealt 2d6 cold damage (using the Ice seed) and apply the Fire seed's Igniting secret to the spell. However, if the spell dealt 2d6 cold damage (using the Ice seed) and 1d6 fire damage (using the Fire seed), the sorceror could apply the Igniting secret.

To apply a secret, a sorceror spends 1 SP when casting the spell. A secret may only be applied to a spell once.

Some secrets can be learned from multiple seeds. If this is the case, you must only learn the secret once to be able to apply it to any applicable seeds, and may only apply it once even if you use two or more of the parent seeds in a spell. For instance, if you learn the Strong secret from the Fire seed, you may apply the Strong secret when using the Acid seed, and when using both the Acid and Fire seeds you may only apply the Strong secret once.

Seeds
Acid
Shape: Target
Save: Reflex half
Duration: Instantaneous
*3 SP: +1d4 acid damage

Secrets
*Lingering: the spell lingers, dealing half the dice of damage this seed dealt again next round.
*Nauseating: the target is nauseated for one round. A Fortitude save negates this effect.
*Strong: +1 DC
*Caustic: +1 damage per die of acid damage. This extra damage effects even targets immune to acid.

Agile
Shape: Personal
Save: None
Duration: 1 round
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks.
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Acrobatics checks is increased by 1.
*4 SP: the target gains a +2 competence bonus to Reflex saves.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Invigorating: the target gains temporary HP equal to the number of rounds the spell lasts.
*Evasive: the target gains Evasion.
*Trained: the target is treated as if they are trained in the skill(s) this spell boosts.

Barrier
Shape: Line
Save: Will Partial
Duration: 1 round
*4 SP: The area of this spell becomes difficult terrain
*3 SP: The area of this spell blocks line of sight. This can be overcome by a successful Will save.
*1 SP: The duration of this spell increases by one round.
*3 SP: The difficult terrain caused even affects flying creatures.

Secrets
Danger: Any creature that enters the terrain modified by this spell suffers half the effects of any other seeds that are part of this spell (e.g. half the damage).

Cloud
Shape: 10' radius Sphere
Save: Fortitude negates
Duration: 1 round
*4 SP: sight within the spell area is obscured beyond 5', and creatures farther than 5' have total concealment.
*2 SP: creatures within 5' have concealment.
*2 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Imbued: effects from any other seeds in this spell persist and affect everything in the area or that enters the area of the spell each round.
*Strong: +1 DC

Conceal
Shape: Personal
Save: None
Duration: 1 round
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Stealth checks.
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Steal checks is increased by 1.
*9 SP: the target is rendered invisible, as the spell.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Hidden: the target is invisible to darkvision.
*Trained: the target is treated as if they are trained in the skill(s) this spell boosts.

Cone
Shape: Cone
Save: As original seeds.
Duration: As original seeds
*4 SP: change the spell's shape to a 15' cone
*2 SP: add +5' to the cone's size

Secrets
*Discriminating: the spell does not affect allies; alternatively, the spell does not affect enemies.

Cruel
Shape: Ray
Save: Reflex half
Duration: Instantaneous
*4 SP: +1d10 physical damage. You take 1 damage that can't be prevented.

Secrets
*Forceful: the spell bull-rushes the target, using a Strength bonus equal to the total number of dice of damage this spell inflicts.
*Nauseating: the target is nauseated for one round. A Fortitude save negates this effect.
*Strong: +1 DC
*Wounding: the spell also deals 1 Constitution damage.

Detect
Shape: Personal
Save: None
Duration: 1 minute
*1 SP: the target can detect magic as the spell detect magic.
*1 SP: the target can detect alignments as the detect chaos/evil/good/law spells.
*3 SP: the target can see invisible creatures and objects.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Darkseeing: the target's darkvision also applies in magical darkness.

Dispel
Shape: Target
Save: None
Duration: Instantaneous or 1 round; see text
*8 SP: as a targeted dispel magic.
*2 SP: increase the maximum caster level by 1.

Secrets
*Distracting: for 1 round the target must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + your CL) if it attempts to cast a spell or lose the spell.

Drain
Shape: Ray
Save: Fortitude negates
Duration: Instantaneous
*5 SP: +1d6 negative energy damage

Secrets
*Disintegrating: if the target is reduced to 0 or less, the target is disintegrated.
*Draining: you gain temporary Hit Points equal to half the damage dealt by this spell. These temporary HP last for a number of rounds equal to the number of dice of negative energy damage the spell deals.
*Enervating: the spell also bestows one negative level to anyone damaged by the negative energy damage.

Earth
Shape: Personal
Save: Will negates
Duration: 1 minute or 1 hour; see text.
*6 SP: you gain a burrow speed of 20' for 1 minute.
*2 SP: increase your burrow speed by 5' for 1 hour.
*4 SP: increase the duration by 1 minute. This ability cannot be applied to a target who did not gain their burrow speed through this seed.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Reverberating: the target also gains tremorsense 10'.

Electricity
Shape: Target
Save: Reflex half
Duration: Instantaneous
*3 SP: +1d6 electricity

Secrets
*Lingering: the spell lingers, dealing half the dice of damage this seed dealt again next round.
*Stunning: the spell stuns the target for one round. A Fortitude save negates this effect.
*Strong: +1 DC.
*Vicious: +1 damage per die of electrical damage. This extra damage effects even targets immune to electricity.

Entangle
Shape: Target
Save: Reflex negates
Duration: 1 round
*4 SP: the target is entangled.
*2 SP: the target is entangled for +1 round.

Secrets
*Clinging: Any elemental damage (that is, acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic) attached to this spell also deals half that amount of damage again the next round.

Fear
Shape: Target
Save: Will negates
Duration: 1 round
*3 SP: target is shaken
*1 SP: the duration increases by 1 round.

Secrets
*Terrifying: the target is frightened instead.

Fire
Shape: Target
Save: Reflex half
Duration: Instantaneous
*3 SP: +1d6 fire

Secrets
*Forceful: the spell bull-rushes the target, using a Strength bonus equal to the total number of dice of damage this spell inflicts.
*Igniting: the spell ignites target, dealing 1d6 fire per round afterwards. A DC 15 Reflex save puts out the fire, and a creature who makes the initial save does not catch fire.
*Strong: +1 DC.
*Searing: +1 damage per die of fire damage. This extra damage effects even targets immune to fire.

Fly
Shape: Touch
Save: None
Duration: 1 minute
*6 SP: the target gains a 20' fly speed (poor maneuverability).
*3 SP: the target gains +1 additional minute of flight. This ability cannot be applied to a target who did not gain their flight through this seed.
*3 SP: the target's existing fly speed increases by +10' for 1 hour.

Secrets
*Agile: the target's maneuverability class improves one step for every 20 feet of speed added, to a maximum of perfect maneuverability.

Force
Shape: Target or Personal; see text
Save: None
Duration: Instantaneous or 1 hour per AC; see text
*2 SP: 1d4 force damage. As a force effect, this applies even against incorporeal or ethereal creatures. This is a Target effect. This ability cannot be purchased multiple times.
*2 SP: +1 force damage.
*2 SP: +1 armor bonus to AC. As a force effect, this applies even against incorporeal or ethereal creatures. This is a personal effect that lasts for 1 hour per point of AC.

Secrets
*Deflecting: the target gains DR/- equal to the amount of AC provided by this spell.
*Forceful: the spell bull-rushes the target, using a Strength bonus equal to the total number of dice of damage this spell inflicts.

Freedom
Shape: Personal
Save: None
Duration: 1 round
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Escape Artist checks.
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Escape Artist checks is increased by 1.
*10 SP: you may act as if under the freedom of movement spell.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Focused: you may cast this spell while grappled without making a Concentration check.
*Trained: the target is treated as if they are trained in the skill(s) this spell boosts.

Grease
Shape: 5' radius Sphere
Save: Reflex negates
Duration: 1 round
*6 SP: anything in the area or enters the area of the spell makes a DC 10 Acrobatics check or falls prone.
*2 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Imbued: effects from any other seeds in this spell persist and affect everything in the area or that enters the area of the spell each round.
*Immobilizing: the spell immobilizes the target instead.
*Strong: +1 DC

Hex
Shape: Target
Save: Will negates
Duration: 1 round
*3 SP: the target takes a -2 penalty to either saves, attack rolls, or skill checks (pick one).
*3 SP: increase the penalty inflicted by 1.
*3 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Double-Hexing: the penalty also applies to saves, attack rolls, or skill checks (pick one; your choice must be different from the original focus of the spell).
*Desensitizing: the spell also blinds or deafens the target (your choice) for the duration.

Ice
Shape: Target
Save: Fortitude half
Duration: Instantaneous
*3 SP: +1d6 cold

Secrets
*Slowing: the spell slows the target for a number of rounds equal to the total number of dice of damage inflicted by this spell. A Will save negates this effect.
*Strong: +1 DC.
*Freezing: +1 damage per die of cold damage. This extra damage effects even targets immune to cold.

Knowledge
Shape: Personal
Save: None
Duration: 1 round
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on all Knowledge checks
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Knowledge checks is increased by 1.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.
*12 SP: you may apply one Secret you don't know to this spell, as long as it could normally be applied to the spell.
*15 SP: you may identify a touched magical object, as the spell.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Trained: you are treated as if you are trained in the skill(s) this spell boosts.

Light
Shape: Sphere
Save: Fortitude half or partial; see text
Duration: 1 minute
*1 SP: +5' radius bright illumination, and shadowy illumination for equal area past that for one minute.
*1 SP: +1 minute of duration.

Secrets
*Pure: the light instead does 1d6 damage to undead and oozes per original minute of duration. After determining damage, reduce the duration to instantaneous and change the shape to Target. A successful Fortitude save halves this damage.
*Blinding: the light blinds targets within the bright illumination area. Reduce the duration from minutes to rounds. A successful Fortitude save negates the blindness.

Line
Shape: Line
Save: As other seeds
Duration: As other seeds
*5 SP: change spell's shape to 30' line.
*3 SP: add +5' to line length.

Secrets
*Discriminating: the spell does not affect allies; alternatively, the spell does not affect enemies.

Protect
Shape: Touch
Save: None
Duration: 1 minute
*1 SP: prevent next 2 physical damage to target.
*1 SP: increase the prevented damage amount by 1.
*2 SP: increase the duration by +1 minute.

Secrets
*Resisting: the damage prevention also applies to magic damage, using the same pool.

Runes
Shape: Personal
Save: Reflex half
Duration: 1 hour
*2 SP: you can read any written language, including magical texts.
*1 SP: the next text you write cannot be read by anyone who can't read magical text.
*6 SP: the next text you write explodes dealing 2d6 force damage to everything in a 10' radius, including what it was written on, if read by anyone but you. If you apply the Allied Secret you may designate one other person who can read the text without causing it to explode.
*2 SP: increase the force damage by 1d6

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this spell to one target you are touching.
*Forceful: the spell bull-rushes the target, using a Strength bonus equal to the total number of dice of damage this spell inflicts.
*Strong: +1 DC

Sense
Shape: Touch
Save: None
Duration: 1 minute
*3 SP: the target gains darkvision 60'.
*3 SP: the target gains low-light vision.
*3 SP: the target gains the Scent ability.
*2 SP: increase the duration by one minute.

Secrets
*Reverberating: the target also gains tremorsense 10'.
*Darkseeing: the target's darkvision also applies in magical darkness.
*Farsensing: double ranges on effects granted by this seed.

Sound
Shape: Target
Save: Fortitude negates
Duration: Instantaneous or 1 round; see text
*3 SP: +1d4 sonic damage
*3 SP: the target is dazed for one round.

Secrets
*Stunning: a dazed target is stunned instead.
*Strong: +1 DC.
*Echoing: +1 damage per die of sonic damage. This extra damage effects even targets immune to sonic damage.

Sphere
Shape: Sphere
Save: As other seeds
Duration: As other seeds
*5 SP: change the spell's shape to a 10' sphere.
*3 SP: increase the sphere's shape by a +5' radius.

Secrets
*Discriminating: the spell does not affect allies; alternatively, the spell does not affect enemies.

Survival
Shape: Personal
Save: None
Duration: 1 round or 24 hours; see text
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Survival checks.
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Survival checks is increased by 1.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.
*4 SP: the target is unaffected by hot or cold as if under the endure elements spell for 24 hours.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Trained: you are treated as if you are trained in the skill(s) this spell boosts.

Teleport
Shape: Personal
Save: Will negates
Duration: Instantaneous
*8 SP: you teleport to any unoccupied square within your spell range.
*1 SP: increase the range by 10'

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Hostile: you may apply this effect to one enemy as a touch attack.

Time
Shape: Touch
Save: Will negates
Duration: 1 round
*9 SP: target is slowed.
*3 SP: increase duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Speeding: the spell hastes the target instead.
*Paralyzing: the spell paralyzes the target instead.
*Immobilizing: the spell immobilizes the target instead.

Vigilant
Shape: Personal
Save: None
Duration: 1 minute
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Awareness checks.
*4 SP: the target gains a +4 bonus on initiative checks.
*1 SP: increase the bonus by 1.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 minute.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Trained: the target is treated as if they are trained in the skill(s) this spell boosts.

Vigor
Shape: Personal
Save: None
Duration: 1 round
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Athletics checks
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Athletics checks is increased by 1.
*4 SP: the target gains temporary hit points equal to their modifier to Athletics checks.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Invigorating: the target gains additional temporary HP equal to the number of rounds the spell lasts.
*Refreshing: the target is cured of fatigue and exhaustion, and is immune to those conditions for the duration of the spell.
*Trained: you are treated as if you are trained in the skill(s) this spell boosts.

Vile
Shape: Ray
Save: Reflex half
Duration: Instantaneous
*6 SP: 1d4 negative energy damage. This damage cannot be cured through magical means; instead, it must be cured over time. This ability cannot be purchased multiple times.
*3 SP: +1 negative energy damage.

Secrets
*Desensitizing: the spell also blinds or deafens the target (your choice) for the duration.
*Nauseating: the target is nauseated for one round. A Fortitude save negates this effect.
*Strong: +1 DC.
*Wounding: the spell also deals 1 Constitution damage.

Water
Shape: Personal
Save: Will negates
Duration: 1 hour
*6 SP: you gain a swim speed of 40'
*2 SP: increase your swim speed by 10'.
*3 SP: you may breathe underwater normally
*8 SP: as long as you are underwater you act as if under Freedom of Movement for the duration of this spell.
*4 SP: increase the duration of the swim speed and underwater breathing by 1 hour.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.

Weapon
Shape: Touch
Save: None
Duration: 1 minute
*6 SP: the touched weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls
*4 SP: increase the enhancement bonus gained by 1.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 minute

Secrets
*Distracting: for 1 round the target must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + you CL) if it attempts to cast a spell or lose the spell.

Wind
Shape: Line
Save: None
Duration: Instantaneous
*3 SP: the spell bull-rushes the target with a +4 Strength bonus.
*3 SP: improve bull-rush Strength bonus by +3.
*2 SP: create 5 MPH gust of wind.
*2 SP: increase gust of wind MPH by 5.

Secrets
*Tripping: the spell's bull-rush also attempts to trip the target at the same bonus.

Wolf
Shape: Personal
Save: None
Duration: 1 minute
*3 SP: you gain a bite attack that deals 1d6 (if medium) + Strength modifier damage.
*2 SP: increase the damage die of your bite attack by 1.
*6 SP: your bite attack gains the Trip ability of a Wolf.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 minute.

Secrets
*Invigorating: the target gains temporary HP equal to the number of rounds the spell lasts.

Word
Shape: None
Save: Will negates
Duration: Instantaneous or 1 round; see text
*2 SP: the target is deafened for 1 round if it has 10 or less HP.
*4 SP: the target is dazed for 1 round if it has 10 or less HP.
*6 SP: the target is blinded for 1 round if it has 10 or less HP.
*8 SP: the target is stunned for 1 round if it has 10 or less HP.
*10 SP: the target is killed if it has less than 10 HP.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.
*1 SP: increase the HP limit by 10.

Secrets
*Focused: you may cast this spell while grappled without making a Concentration check.
*Strong: +1 DC

Feats
Extra Seed
Prerequisites: Charisma 15, Spellweaving class feature, access to at least four seeds

Benefit: You gain the knowledge of a new seed and add it to your seeds known.

Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, you acquire a new seed, and the Charisma prerequisite increases by 2. A sorceror may choose this feat as one of his sorceror bonus feats.

Extra Seed Secret
Prerequisites: Charisma 15, Spellweaving class feature, at least one seed secret

Benefit: You gain further knowledge into the inner workings of a seed. When you take this feat, select a seed you know. You gain the knowledge of one of that seed's secrets and may utilize it as normal.

Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Instead, you learn a new seed secret. A sorceror may choose this feat as one of his sorceror bonus feats.

Intelligent Targeting [Investing]
Prerequsites: Intelligence 15, Spellweaving class feature

Benefit: A sorceror who takes this feat adds his Intelligence modifier to his damage rolls when casting a spell using his Spellweaving class feature. This feat does not add additional damage to spells that do not already deal damage.

Investiture: For each three points invested in this feat, increase the extra damage by 1.

Special: A sorceror may choose this feat as one of his sorceror bonus feats.

Perceptive Spellweaving
Prerequisites: Wisdom 15, Spellweaving class feature, at least one seed secret

Benefit: Your ability to call forth your magic is augmented by your ability to perceive raw magic. You add your Wisdom modifier in addition to your Charisma modifier when determining the number of Spellweave Points you receive when activating your Spellweave ability.

Special: A sorceror may choose this feat as one of his sorceror bonus feats.

Reflexive Spellweaving [Investing]
Prerequisites: Spellweaving class feature, Combat Reflexes, Residual Spellweaving

Benefit: If you have Spellweave Points carrying over to your next turn from your Residual Spellweaving feat, you may utilize them to cast a spell in place of making an attack of opportunity. The spell can only use Spellweaving Points that are stored by your Residual Spellweaving feat. Casting a spell in this fashion consumes one of your attacks of opportunity and does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Investiture: For each three points you invest in this feat, you gain one temporary Spellweaving Point when casting a spell as an attack of opportunity. A point gained in this fashion may immediately be spent to augment a spell further.

Normal: You may only cast spells when activating your Spellweaving class feature.

Special: A sorceror may choose this feat as one of his sorceror bonus feats.

Residual Spellweaving
Prerequisites: Charisma 15, Spellweaving class feature

Benefit: When you have Spellweave Points left over after casting a spell, you may choose to have up to three of them carry over until the end of your next turn.

Normal: Spellweave Points disappear at the end of your turn.

Special: A sorceror may choose this feat as one of his sorceror bonus feats.

Seed Focus
Prerequisites: Charisma 15, Spellweaving class feature, knowledge of at least one seed

Benefit: When you take this feat, choose a seed you have access to. When using this seed, you may apply one of its secrets that you know without spending an SP to activate it. Furthermore, the DC of a spell you cast using the chosen seed increases by 1.

Special: A sorceror may choose this feat as one of his sorceror bonus feats.

Seed Specialization
Prerequisites: Charisma 15, Spellweaving class feature, knowledge of at least two seeds, Seed Focus with the chosen seed

Benefit: When you take this feat, choose a seed you have taken the Seed Focus feat for. When using this seed, reduce the cost of the seed's base functions by 1, to a minimum of 1. Further, the DC of a spell you cast using the chosen seed increases by 1.

thegurullamen
2009-01-27, 01:04 AM
Well, that was an annoyingly long down time.[/forum whine]

Question: since seed secrets are so rare, why have some of them be so specialized? Who would use a secret slot, of which there are only six, solely to target oozes with the light seed? it's too specialized. Seems like you could just pile the ooze secret into the undead secret and not overpower it. It's the same effect, after all.

Draz74
2009-01-27, 02:47 AM
Huh.

Usually, when you put up a new class, my reaction is, "Well, it's got a couple good ideas in it. And it looks well-balanced with Fax's other classes. Overall it looks like it will fit well in his system. But it just doesn't float my boat -- mostly, it's just too complicated."

This one? Much more elegant. I like it.

That said, I'm also confused by it. So even though these are called "spells," they have nothing to do with other classes' spellcasting systems? These are the only effects a sorceror (you changed the spelling on purpose?) can accomplish with his magic? Not saying this is bad, just surprising given how much of the Wizard spell list you're leaving intact.

And I didn't see a daily limit on Spellweaving or anything, so I'm assuming this is supposed to be d20r's version of the Dragonfire Adept -- blast away every round, all day. Actually, that better be the case, because the effects here turn out to be a good deal weaker than Wizards can pull off at the same level.

Another clarification: If a sorcerer hurls a spell with the Acid and Entangle seeds, does the target make 2 Reflex saves? Or make 1 and apply its result to both effects?

A few concerns. Charisma dependence here is extreme, even for a caster. A sorceror with only 12 charisma shouldn't exactly be an optimized character anyway, but with your current design he can barely do anything at level 1.

Protect seems ... strikingly weak. I guess at low levels (and with a decent Charisma) it's actually not bad, but later on it seems it would become obsolete fast.

Forceful with the Force seed sucks, since it will only ever have a +1 Str bonus.

Other than that, I'd have to try to build some characters and see how they work out.

I appreciate the ideas, though, in any case, since I'm trying to come up with a Seed system for magic in my own system anyway. :smallwink:

MageSparrowhawk
2009-01-27, 03:41 AM
This is very interesting, and oddly similar to something I've been working on. once again though (just like many of the systems like this that I've seen) is how limited it actually is. Granted, it covers the major points-damage, protection, standard buffs like flight- but it doesn't allow for many of the myriad of things you can 'do with magic'. This is, of course, a moot point if you were just planning on a sorcerer being a blaster. Which could work very well, depending on the options available to other casters...

@Draz74 I'm interested in what you're working on, as my mechanic has kinda died on me when I started looking at how difficult it would be to correctly build and balance. If you're willing, I'd like to see what you've done.

Ashtagon
2009-01-27, 07:17 AM
As far as I can tell, this class seems to reduce the sorcerer to a blaster-only role. I admit the original srd class wasn't exactly flexible, but this doesn't much better. Am I missing something here?

Fax Celestis
2009-01-27, 12:45 PM
Question: since seed secrets are so rare, why have some of them be so specialized? Who would use a secret slot, of which there are only six, solely to target oozes with the light seed? it's too specialized. Seems like you could just pile the ooze secret into the undead secret and not overpower it. It's the same effect, after all.

Good point. Think I could put the Plants one on there too?


Huh.

Usually, when you put up a new class, my reaction is, "Well, it's got a couple good ideas in it. And it looks well-balanced with Fax's other classes. Overall it looks like it will fit well in his system. But it just doesn't float my boat -- mostly, it's just too complicated."

This one? Much more elegant. I like it.Thanks.


That said, I'm also confused by it. So even though these are called "spells," they have nothing to do with other classes' spellcasting systems? These are the only effects a sorceror (you changed the spelling on purpose?) can accomplish with his magic? Not saying this is bad, just surprising given how much of the Wizard spell list you're leaving intact.

And I didn't see a daily limit on Spellweaving or anything, so I'm assuming this is supposed to be d20r's version of the Dragonfire Adept -- blast away every round, all day. Actually, that better be the case, because the effects here turn out to be a good deal weaker than Wizards can pull off at the same level.Correct. I felt that this was a more accurate representation of someone working with the fundamentals of magic rather than just making the wizard spontaneous. There's no daily limit on Spellweaving, no.

As far as wizard v. sorceror casting potential, the wizard is going to be limited in his spell selection: school focus will be forced, and banned schools will increase. Meanwhile, seeds can be added to the sorceror without issue, just as spells can be added to the wizard's or cleric's lists.


Another clarification: If a sorcerer hurls a spell with the Acid and Entangle seeds, does the target make 2 Reflex saves? Or make 1 and apply its result to both effects?One. It's pretty clear from the core rules (at least, I think so anyway), that most effects only apply one kind of save once.


A few concerns. Charisma dependence here is extreme, even for a caster. A sorceror with only 12 charisma shouldn't exactly be an optimized character anyway, but with your current design he can barely do anything at level 1.Well, yes, but then maybe sorcery isn't a natural inclination with such a poor Charisma. See, Charisma's strong for this sorceror, sure, but it's not the be-all-end-all: with a feat expenditure (for Perceptive Spellweaving), the sorceror can be almost entirely Wisdom-based instead.


Protect seems ... strikingly weak. I guess at low levels (and with a decent Charisma) it's actually not bad, but later on it seems it would become obsolete fast.It would seem that way until you consider coupling it with the Sphere, Line, or Cone seeds.


Forceful with the Force seed sucks, since it will only ever have a +1 Str bonus.Ooh, good point. Copypasta from the Fire seed has failed me.


Other than that, I'd have to try to build some characters and see how they work out.

I appreciate the ideas, though, in any case, since I'm trying to come up with a Seed system for magic in my own system anyway. :smallwink:

I actually was originally going to base it off of epic magic, but I think I liked this fashion better. Now to go make that Weaver of the Apocalypse PrC (who gains access to the Famine, Plague, War, Death, and Apocalypse seeds) and a Hexblade knockoff who has the Drain, Hex, and some other seeds. I really really like this Spellweaving mechanic.


This is very interesting, and oddly similar to something I've been working on. once again though (just like many of the systems like this that I've seen) is how limited it actually is. Granted, it covers the major points-damage, protection, standard buffs like flight- but it doesn't allow for many of the myriad of things you can 'do with magic'. This is, of course, a moot point if you were just planning on a sorcerer being a blaster. Which could work very well, depending on the options available to other casters...Well, the idea is modularity. Rather than making a new class every time you come up with an idea, just make a new seed. These seeds are far from the be-all-end-all of what a sorceror can do, so the introduction of new seeds (even prestige seeds!) is incredibly easy.


As far as I can tell, this class seems to reduce the sorcerer to a blaster-only role. I admit the original srd class wasn't exactly flexible, but this doesn't much better. Am I missing something here?Modularity. As I stated above, this sorceror (along with pretty much any of my other d20r classes) is designed to be very plug-n-play. I liken most of the wizard's power in the 3.5e game to the fact that he has options that are orders of magnitude more numerous than nearly any other class. Certainly, some of these options are broken by themselves, but fundamentally the brokenness of the wizard class (and, perhaps even to a greater extent, the druid and cleric classes) comes from having more options than other, non-spellcasting classes. As such, I'm attempting to give each class the potential for options, so that if--and when--I begin supplementing this material with new material, you won't see a "new spells" chapter; you'll see a "new options" chapter that contains rogue powers, fencer maneuvers, sorceror seeds, wizard spells, druid binds, and so on.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-27, 01:31 PM
On the Basics:

The HD, BAB, saves look good.
Both their Skills and Prowess basically being the lowest option seems like a bit much to sacrifice for their unique Warlock-like endurance spellcasting.
The number of Seeds and Secrets gained could be just fine, but also might be a little low (especially the Secrets).
Spellweaving is awesome. Bravo, sir, for opening that can of mix-n-match worms.
Bonus feats and Spell Shielding seem fine for extra class features.
Seed Secrets are great.


Questions:

Are Spheres ranged, or centered on the caster?
Regarding the Drain Seed, what is negative energy? Damage, level drain, etc?
The Draining Secret seems a bit underwhelming to only last 1 round
Lingering -- Acid, Electricity both have the Lingering secret, but both specify dealing different types of damage. Would one Lingering secret count for all of them, or not?
Do Clinging and Lingering stack? And what constitutes elemental damage?
Would the damage from the Caustic or Vicious secrets apply to the Lingering damage?
Would the damage from the Searing secret apply to the Igniting secret?
Is there any limit to the number of secrets you can stack onto a spell, and can you stack the same secret?
The Forceful secret seems to be increadibly weak when paired with the Force seed, since it will only ever have one die of damage.
With the Double-Hexing secret, can you choose the same option, effectively doubling the penalty?
The Protect seed seems a little weak (especially since it's touch). Perhaps an extra 3 damage prevented for 2 SP?
Should the Discriminating Secret allow you to target enemies or allies, so you could add it to beneficial seeds like Protect?
If you applied the Farsensing secret to a spell, would it apply only to the parts of the spell from the Sense seed, or to every part of the spell?
The Immobilizing secret seems much weak than the Paralyzing secret (yeah, I know some things are immune to paralysis, but that doesn't seem to be enough of a balance for how great paralysis is...)
Why does Extra Seed Secret have such a high Wisdom Prereq? I didn't notice Wisdom being desired anywhere in the Sorcerer class description.
Why can Extra Seed Secret only apply to a seed once, instead of just getting different secrets separately?
When you learn Seed Secret, do you only gain one secret, or do you select a Seed and gain all it's Secrets? Your wording currently is unclear.
What's this feat keyword? Is that the keyword for your Prowess-enhanced feats?
Ashtagon brings up the good point of making this [i]very blaster heavy. I can respect the difficulty and making non-blasty seeds, but it could use more utility. And no Teleport/Dimension Door Seed? Did you want suggestions on more Seeds to add? Utility or blasty?
Why are nearly all the damage spells Rays that also allow a save, when it is typically one of the other in 3.5?
I agree that the Sorcerer is almost absurdly dependant on a good Cha, especially early in the game, where he might have to take Light or Protect as his first Seed because he can't afford anything else.
Some Seeds, like Light, seems nearly useless until you gain access to it's Secret (like, why wouldn't you just use Sense to give everyone Darkvision instead?)


Overall, I really like it. Just needs some tweaking and tuning. I'd be more than happy to come up with some Seed ideas if you're looking for extra input.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-27, 02:10 PM
Are Spheres ranged, or centered on the caster?Per the Spellweaving text: "Unless otherwise noted, the range on a sorceror’s spell using this ability is 25’ plus 5’ per 2 sorceror levels."


Regarding the Drain Seed, what is negative energy? Damage, level drain, etc?Negative energy damage. I should clarify that.

The Draining Secret seems a bit underwhelming to only last 1 roundI suppose. Rounds equal to dice of negative energy damage dealt?

Lingering -- Acid, Electricity both have the Lingering secret, but both specify dealing different types of damage. Would one Lingering secret count for all of them, or not?It would, but you'd have to activate it individually. I might change that text to be "dice of damage from this seed."

Do Clinging and Lingering stack? And what constitutes elemental damage?"Elemental damage" is commonly defined as "acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic". Clinging and Lingering do stack.

Would the damage from the Caustic or Vicious secrets apply to the Lingering damage?Yes, but at half power.

Would the damage from the Searing secret apply to the Igniting secret?Yes.

Is there any limit to the number of secrets you can stack onto a spell, and can you stack the same secret?No on both counts.

The Forceful secret seems to be increadibly weak when paired with the Force seed, since it will only ever have one die of damage.Yeah, but I'm not sure how to change that.

With the Double-Hexing secret, can you choose the same option, effectively doubling the penalty?No.

The Protect seed seems a little weak (especially since it's touch). Perhaps an extra 3 damage prevented for 2 SP?Imagine coupling it with Sphere.

Should the Discriminating Secret allow you to target enemies or allies, so you could add it to beneficial seeds like Protect?Maybe. I kinda wanted it to be a choice.

If you applied the Farsensing secret to a spell, would it apply only to the parts of the spell from the Sense seed, or to every part of the spell?Just from the Sense seed.

The Immobilizing secret seems much weak than the Paralyzing secret (yeah, I know some things are immune to paralysis, but that doesn't seem to be enough of a balance for how great paralysis is...)That's essentially the choice point. Immobilizing works on nearly anything, while Paralyzing is better but only works on some things.

Why does Extra Seed Secret have such a high Wisdom Prereq? I didn't notice Wisdom being desired anywhere in the Sorcerer class description.That's failed copypasta. It should be Cha.

Why can Extra Seed Secret only apply to a seed once, instead of just getting different secrets separately?That's...a good question. I'll need to rephrase that.

When you learn Seed Secret, do you only gain one secret, or do you select a Seed and gain all it's Secrets? Your wording currently is unclear.One secret.

What's this feat keyword? Is that the keyword for your Prowess-enhanced feats?Yes.

Ashtagon brings up the good point of making this [i]very blaster heavy. I can respect the difficulty and making non-blasty seeds, but it could use more utility. And no Teleport/Dimension Door Seed? Did you want suggestions on more Seeds to add? Utility or blasty?Yes on both counts.

Why are nearly all the damage spells Rays that also allow a save, when it is typically one of the other in 3.5?I wanted it to have a save inherent to the seed and also to make it so that secondary effects (like stunning or paralysis) weren't no-save.

I agree that the Sorcerer is almost absurdly dependant on a good Cha, especially early in the game, where he might have to take Light or Protect as his first Seed because he can't afford anything else.Like I said before, the sorceror can swap over nearly completely to Wis with one feat.

Some Seeds, like Light, seems nearly useless until you gain access to it's Secret (like, why wouldn't you just use Sense to give everyone Darkvision instead?)I figured light was a rather fundamental ability of magic, and wanted to include it as a seed.


Overall, I really like it. Just needs some tweaking and tuning. I'd be more than happy to come up with some Seed ideas if you're looking for extra input.I most certainly am. You can probably see from what I have where a good measure of balance is.

Draz74
2009-01-27, 02:25 PM
One. It's pretty clear from the core rules (at least, I think so anyway), that most effects only apply one kind of save once.
Yes, but then, most effects don't apply more than one kind of save at all.


Well, yes, but then maybe sorcery isn't a natural inclination with such a poor Charisma. See, Charisma's strong for this sorceror, sure, but it's not the be-all-end-all: with a feat expenditure (for Perceptive Spellweaving), the sorceror can be almost entirely Wisdom-based instead.
Seems like that would mean he'd just be really dependent on having high Charisma *and* Wisdom.


It would seem that way until you consider coupling it with the Sphere, Line, or Cone seeds.
Hmmm ... maybe. Wait, does this work like Resist Energy (i.e. kind of like DR), or like Protection from Energy (i.e. kind of like temporary hit points)? Because it sounds like the latter, but the former would definitely be more worthwhile -- especially as far as extending the duration of the spell is concerned.


Ooh, good point. Copypasta from the Fire seed has failed me.
Yeah, I figured that was the issue.


I actually was originally going to base it off of epic magic, but I think I liked this fashion better. Now to go make that Weaver of the Apocalypse PrC (who gains access to the Famine, Plague, War, Death, and Apocalypse seeds) and a Hexblade knockoff who has the Drain, Hex, and some other seeds. I really really like this Spellweaving mechanic.
Agreed. Now I need to figure out how much of it I'm going to mooch use. :smallamused:

Morty
2009-01-27, 02:31 PM
Well, it looks neat. I have one issue, though: 1st level Sorceror is preety much forced to take some sort of offensive Seed or else he won't do much in combat. Also, it's not really backwards compatibile with 3ed core Sorcerer, which might cause problems if someone wishes to play in an estabilished setting... but then, it's Wizards' fault for making Sorcered indishinguishible from Wizard. I thought of that because I'm thinking of trying to stat out some Faerunian big fishes with this.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-27, 02:42 PM
Yes, but then, most effects don't apply more than one kind of save at all.True. The end-all is that it should only apply each kind of save once.


Seems like that would mean he'd just be really dependent on having high Charisma *and* Wisdom.Oh, I forgot about DCs. Good point.


Hmmm ... maybe. Wait, does this work like Resist Energy (i.e. kind of like DR), or like Protection from Energy (i.e. kind of like temporary hit points)? Because it sounds like the latter, but the former would definitely be more worthwhile -- especially as far as extending the duration of the spell is concerned.Actually it works more like stoneskin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneskin.htm).

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-27, 03:05 PM
I have a question: What happens when you mix n match different effects that have different resists?

Example 1: I have Acid and Cone spheres, and have chosen Nausiating. So I have a Cone effect which is a Reflex for half, but after that is it a Fort save for Nausiating? Will making the Reflex save negate the need for the Fort save? What if I have Evasion, if I take no damage, will I still need to make the Fort save?

Example 2: I have Ice, Fire, and Cone seeds. I choose to make a Cone with both Fire and Ice damage. Ice is a Fort save, but Fire is a Reflex save, which do I use?

MammonAzrael
2009-01-27, 03:19 PM
I suppose. Rounds equal to dice of negative energy damage dealt?
Sounds much better!


It would, but you'd have to activate it individually. I might change that text to be "dice of damage from this seed."
So, if I'm getting this, you can learn Lingering, and you know it for all Seeds. But if you want it to applying to both Acid and Electricity damage on the same spell, you'd have to apply it twice (which I don't think you can do since you can't stack the same Secret).

And not to be super nit-picky, but why do Acid and Electricity share the same Secret, while Ice and Fire have their own unique Secrets. It seems to me that Seeds that share Secrets will have better synergy, and wind up creating more powerful spells overall. May be a balance issue, that could be addressed either by not sharing Secrets, or by spreading some Secrets around more.


"Elemental damage" is commonly defined as "acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic". Clinging and Lingering do stack.
So the spell would deal half elemental damage and half it's Acid/Electricity damage the next round (effectively the creature is hit by full Acid/Electricity damage the next round)? Why would you want to focus on Fire or Cold when you could get such a bigger damage output that way?


Yes, but at half power.
:smallconfused: So...if you did 1d4+1 acid damage from a Lingering Caustic Acid Seed, and roll a 2, the next round the target would take 1 acid damage plus 0 uber-acid damage, and if you did 2d4+2 it would take 2 acid and 1 uber-acid?


Yeah, but I'm not sure how to change that.
Perhaps the STR bonus is just equal to the minimum damage possible? It would keep the Fire Seed at +1 per die, and give the Force Seed a boost for every extra +1 damage. Hmm...Might not work with the Searing Secret, or mixing with other Seeds...Truly, I shall ponder.


Imagine coupling it with Sphere.
So you could either apply that protection to everyone in range (including enemies), or just enemies? And the amount of protection/rounds is reduced by 5+? Still not seeming that strong.


Maybe. I kinda wanted it to be a choice.
There could be another Secret that lets you target only allies.


I wanted it to have a save inherent to the seed and also to make it so that secondary effects (like stunning or paralysis) weren't no-save.
Ahh, that makes sense.


Like I said before, the sorceror can swap over nearly completely to Wis with one feat.
But then it's crazy dependent on Wisdom (no to mention the Cha DC you pointed out. Maybe if they got 3 + class level + Cha/Wis. It's really only the starting levels that really feel like they need a boost. The real comment, I guess, is that it is so heavily dependent upon a single attribute, just to be able to use it's main class feature, especially in the early game.


I figured light was a rather fundamental ability of magic, and wanted to include it as a seed.
True, and I like that it's cheap. Perhaps a Sorceror gains two Seeds at first level, so they can star off with a little variety, like one damage and one utility Seed?



You'll probably want to clarify that you must choose a different stat to apply the penalty to with the Double-Hexing Secret, and that the Farsensing Secret only applies to the Sense Seed.

Also, are you purposely calling it a Sorceror instead of a Sorcerer?

Draz74
2009-01-27, 03:27 PM
True. The end-all is that it should only apply each kind of save once.
Cool.


Oh, I forgot about DCs. Good point.
And the fact that Charisma still applies. It's not like Monks who get to add a really high WIS bonus to AC stop trying to boost their DEX, too.


Actually it works more like stoneskin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneskin.htm).

Ah, well, that's pretty much what I meant by pseudo-DR a la Resist Energy. In that case, it's much more powerful, but needs to be reworded, so that it's clear the protection doesn't wear off after it's been used against one attack.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-27, 03:38 PM
I have a question: What happens when you mix n match different effects that have different resists?

Example 1: I have Acid and Cone spheres, and have chosen Nausiating. So I have a Cone effect which is a Reflex for half, but after that is it a Fort save for Nausiating? Will making the Reflex save negate the need for the Fort save? What if I have Evasion, if I take no damage, will I still need to make the Fort save?

Example 2: I have Ice, Fire, and Cone seeds. I choose to make a Cone with both Fire and Ice damage. Ice is a Fort save, but Fire is a Reflex save, which do I use?

You make both saves. If you pass the Reflex but fail the Fort, then you take half fire but full ice. If you have Evasion, you'd take no fire but full cold.


So, if I'm getting this, you can learn Lingering, and you know it for all Seeds. But if you want it to applying to both Acid and Electricity damage on the same spell, you'd have to apply it twice (which I don't think you can do since you can't stack the same Secret).

And not to be super nit-picky, but why do Acid and Electricity share the same Secret, while Ice and Fire have their own unique Secrets. It seems to me that Seeds that share Secrets will have better synergy, and wind up creating more powerful spells overall. May be a balance issue, that could be addressed either by not sharing Secrets, or by spreading some Secrets around more.Yeah, that had occured to me, but I didn't see it as a significant balance issue. Prove me wrong, however, and I'll happily change it.

So the spell would deal half elemental damage and half it's Acid/Electricity damage the next round (effectively the creature is hit by full Acid/Electricity damage the next round)? Why would you want to focus on Fire or Cold when you could get such a bigger damage output that way?Because Acid works in d4s, and you wouldn't be able to pull this off until 8th level at minimum (well, 6th if you wanted to spend a feat on it). Also, Fire has the advantage of all those other secrets, and Cold has the advantage of targeting the Fort save.


:smallconfused: So...if you did 1d4+1 acid damage from a Lingering Caustic Acid Seed, and roll a 2, the next round the target would take 1 acid damage plus 0 uber-acid damage, and if you did 2d4+2 it would take 2 acid and 1 uber-acid?The "halving" rules are always weird, and in fact there's no direct interpretation on how to do it. My general method is to reroll the same damage as before, and then halve the output.


Perhaps the STR bonus is just equal to the minimum damage possible? It would keep the Fire Seed at +1 per die, and give the Force Seed a boost for every extra +1 damage. Hmm...Might not work with the Searing Secret, or mixing with other Seeds...Truly, I shall ponder.You see my conundrum.


So you could either apply that protection to everyone in range (including enemies), or just enemies? And the amount of protection/rounds is reduced by 5+? Still not seeming that strong.Hm. Point taken. How do I change it, then?


There could be another Secret that lets you target only allies.
Could work.


But then it's crazy dependent on Wisdom (no to mention the Cha DC you pointed out. Maybe if they got 3 + class level + Cha/Wis. It's really only the starting levels that really feel like they need a boost. The real comment, I guess, is that it is so heavily dependent upon a single attribute, just to be able to use it's main class feature, especially in the early game. I guess 3 extra points couldn't be terribly broken, so yeah, I'll add that in.


True, and I like that it's cheap. Perhaps a Sorceror gains two Seeds at first level, so they can star off with a little variety, like one damage and one utility Seed?Might work. I'm also pondering giving them a living spellseed familiar, but I'd have to develop the template for that.


You'll probably want to clarify that you must choose a different stat to apply the penalty to with the Double-Hexing Secret, and that the Farsensing Secret only applies to the Sense Seed.Doing so.


Also, are you purposely calling it a Sorceror instead of a Sorcerer?
Yes.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-27, 03:55 PM
Okay, some edits. Protect is now at a 1 SP to 2 DR ratio; Drain gives Temp HP for rounds equal to negative energy dice; Discriminating property allows choice of friend or foe; Spellweaving is 3 + Level + Cha; the Seed Secret class feature specifies one secret, not all from one seed; expanded description of how saves work; changed text on Lingering property; clarified Clinging property; clarified Double-Hexing property; coupled Ooze-Killing and Undead-Slaying into the Pure property; clarified Farsensing to apply only to the Sense seed; altered the Special line on the Extra Spell Secret feat; gave the sorceror 4 + Int skills.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-27, 04:40 PM
Yeah, that had occured to me, but I didn't see it as a significant balance issue. Prove me wrong, however, and I'll happily change it.
I don't see it as any huge balance issue, just that the Sorcerors that choose certain Seeds will effectively wind up getting extra Secrets, since they'll be able to apply one to several Seeds. Nothing huge, just something I noticed. Perhaps changing Caustic/Vicious/Searing/Freezing into a single Secret, that isn't bound by type, but rather the Seed it's applied to, like how Lingering is now.


Because Acid works in d4s, and you wouldn't be able to pull this off until 8th level at minimum (well, 6th if you wanted to spend a feat on it). Also, Fire has the advantage of all those other secrets, and Cold has the advantage of targeting the Fort save.

[QUOTE=Fax Celestis;5703989]The "halving" rules are always weird, and in fact there's no direct interpretation on how to do it. My general method is to reroll the same damage as before, and then halve the output.
That's one way. I typically just take whatever damage was dealt last turn and halve that. *shrug* What I was confused on was how much of that halved damage would punch through immunity.


Hm. Point taken. How do I change it, then?
The two ideas that pop instantly to mind are increasing the ratio to perhaps 2SP for 3 damage, or changing it to a ranged ability, so you can give it to frontliners without wading in yourself. Though the various shape Seeds sorta do that already.


Might work. I'm also pondering giving them a living spellseed familiar, but I'd have to develop the template for that.
That could be very cool. Especially if you could modify it as you learned additional Seeds and Secrets. Very awesome.

Oh, and it might be a good idea to clarify that some Seed abilities can only be used after the "initial" ability has been bought. (like the Entangle Seed could currently extend the entangle duration of an already entangled creature without using the 4 SP option).

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-27, 04:44 PM
How about this for a Seed Mastery for the Drain seed:

Enervating: also bestows two negative levels to anyone damaged by the negative energy damage

Fax Celestis
2009-01-27, 04:46 PM
Oh, and it might be a good idea to clarify that some Seed abilities can only be used after the "initial" ability has been bought. (like the Entangle Seed could currently extend the entangle duration of an already entangled creature without using the 4 SP option).

That's already in place:


Seed Secret (Ex): At fifth level and each three levels thereafter (8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 20th), the sorceror gains the knowledge of the inner workings of one of his seeds. He selects one secret from a seed he knows. When casting a spell using his Spellweaving class feature, he may apply one or more seed secrets to spells that he casts.

In order to apply a seed secret, he must utilize the seed that the secret is associated with: therefore, a sorceror could not cast a spell that dealt 2d6 cold damage (using the Ice seed) and apply the Fire seed's Igniting secret to the spell. However, if the spell dealt 2d6 cold damage (using the Ice seed) and 1d6 fire damage (using the Fire seed), the sorceror could apply the Igniting secret.

To apply a secret, a sorceror spends 1 SP when casting the spell. A secret may only be applied to a spell once.

Some secrets can be learned from multiple seeds. If this is the case, you must only learn the secret once to be able to apply it to any applicable seeds, and may only apply it once even if you use two or more of the parent seeds in a spell. For instance, if you learn the Strong secret from the Fire seed, you may apply the Strong secret when using the Acid seed, and when using both the Acid and Fire seeds you may only apply the Strong secret once.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-27, 04:52 PM
Since I don't have time to do them now, seed ideas:

Conceal: +stealth checks, invisibility; personal range
Detect: detect alignment, see invisibility, detect magic
Dispel: dispelling
Heal: Prestige Seed: +heal checks, fast healing X for Y rounds, positive energy damage v. undead

Renegade Paladin
2009-01-27, 05:05 PM
Sorcerer.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/GrammarPolice.gif

:smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-27, 05:12 PM
Sorcerer.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/GrammarPolice.gif

:smallbiggrin:





Also, are you purposely calling it a Sorceror instead of a Sorcerer?
Yes.

Open Mouth, Insert Foot. Have a nice day.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-27, 06:35 PM
I wasn't talking about Secrets, but the Seeds that have more than one base ability, like Entangle.

The Enervating Secret seems way too strong (a 2 level drain for only 6 SP, spamable every round? Yes please! I'd say reduce it to 1 level, and they don't get the negative level if they succeed on the Fort save). You may have some clause like that, and I'm just not spotting it.

Seeds
Strength
Shape: Touch

Save: None
*4 SP: the target gains a +2 enhancement bonus to strength for 1 minute.
*8 SP: the enhancement bonus to strength increases by an additional +2.
*3 SP: the duration is increased by 1 minute.

Secrets
*Guarding: the target is immune to ability damage for this ability for the duration of the spell.

Note -- this can be translated tot he other 5 attributes easily.
Conceal
Shape: Personal

Save: None
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Stealth checks for 1 round.
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Steal checks is increased by 1.
*9 SP: the target is invisible for 1 round.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one target you are touching.
*Hidden: the target is invisible to darkvision.
Teleport
Shape: Personal

Save: Will negates
*8 SP: you teleport to any unoccupied square within your spell range.
*1 SP: increase the range by 10'

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one target you are touching.
*Hostile: you may apply this effect to one enemy as a touch attack.
Heal
Shape: Touch

Save: Fort negates
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Heal checks for 1 round.
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Heal checks is increased by 1.
*5 SP: the target gains Fast Healing 1 for 1 round. This Fast Healing only works when the target has less than half it's HP.
*2 SP: increase the Fast Healing gained by 1.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Invigorating: the target gain temporary HP equal to the number of rounds the spell lasts.
*Refreshing: the target is cured of fatigue and exhaustion, and is immune to those conditions for the duration of the spell.
*Restorative: the target heals 1 point of ability damage or drain, or 1 negative level.

Note -- I think Light is the way to go it you want to nuke undead.
Cruel
Shape: Ray

Save: Reflex half
*4 SP: +1d10 physical damage. You take 1 damage that can't be prevented.

Secrets
*Forceful: the spell bull-rushes the target, using a Strength bonus equal to the total number of dice of damage this spell inflicts.
*Nauseating: the target is nauseated for one round. A Fortitude save negates this effect.
*Strong: +1 DC
*Wounding: +1 constitution damage.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-27, 06:41 PM
I wasn't talking about Secrets, but the Seeds that have more than one base ability, like Entangle.

The Enervating Secret seems way too strong (a 2 level drain for only 6 SP, spamable every round? Yes please! I'd say reduce it to 1 level, and they don't get the negative level if they succeed on the Fort save). You may have some clause like that, and I'm just not spotting it.

Seeds
Strength
Shape: Touch

Save: None
*4 SP: the target gains a +2 enhancement bonus to strength for 1 minute.
*8 SP: the enhancement bonus to strength increases by an additional +2.
*3 SP: the duration is increased by 1 minute.

Secrets
*Guarding: the target is immune to ability damage for this ability for the duration of the spell.

Note -- this can be translated tot he other 5 attributes easily.
Conceal
Shape: Personal

Save: None
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Stealth checks for 1 round.
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Steal checks is increased by 1.
*9 SP: the target is invisible for 1 round.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one target you are touching.
*Hidden: the target is invisible to darkvision.
Teleport
Shape: Personal

Save: Will negates
*8 SP: you teleport to any unoccupied square within your spell range.
*1 SP: increase the range by 10'

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one target you are touching.
*Hostile: you may apply this effect to one enemy as a touch attack.
Heal
Shape: Touch

Save: Fort negates
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Heal checks for 1 round.
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Heal checks is increased by 1.
*5 SP: the target gains Fast Healing 1 for 1 round. This Fast Healing only works when the target has less than half it's HP.
*2 SP: increase the Fast Healing gained by 1.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Invigorating: the target gain temporary HP equal to the number of rounds the spell lasts.
*Refreshing: the target is cured of fatigue and exhaustion, and is immune to those conditions for the duration of the spell.
*Restorative: the target heals 1 point of ability damage or drain, or 1 negative level.

Note -- I think Light is the way to go it you want to nuke undead.
Cruel
Shape: Ray

Save: Reflex half
*4 SP: +1d10 physical damage. You take 1 damage that can't be prevented.

Secrets
*Forceful: the spell bull-rushes the target, using a Strength bonus equal to the total number of dice of damage this spell inflicts.
*Nauseating: the target is nauseated for one round. A Fortitude save negates this effect.
*Strong: +1 DC
*Wounding: +1 constitution damage.

Why not? Warlocks can do it with Utterdark Blast, which is where I got the idea from. And a Fort save is inherent in the Drain seed.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-27, 06:47 PM
Why not? Warlocks can do it with Utterdark Blast, which is where I got the idea from. And a Fort save is inherent in the Drain seed.

Because Warlocks can't do it until level 16 at the earliest. These guys can get it at level five.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-27, 06:49 PM
Why not? Warlocks can do it with Utterdark Blast, which is where I got the idea from. And a Fort save is inherent in the Drain seed.

Yeah. Still, I'm lowering it to one negative level.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-27, 06:50 PM
Because Warlocks can't do it until level 16 at the earliest. These guys can get it at level five.

/me adds a bunch of Mammon's seeds.

I think I'm going to hold off on Heal and Strength for now. I think I'm going to make those prestige seeds.

Renegade Paladin
2009-01-27, 07:07 PM
Open Mouth, Insert Foot. Have a nice day.
No thanks. I saw that; being intentionally wrong is still wrong. "Sorceror" is not a word; it's a misspelling.

Draz74
2009-01-27, 07:10 PM
So, the Fly seed can only ever grant Average maneuverability at best? Seems like the Agile secret could be a little more generous, like, +1 maneuverability class for every 20 feet of speed added or something.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-27, 07:13 PM
So, the Fly seed can only ever grant Average maneuverability at best? Seems like the Agile secret could be a little more generous, like, +1 maneuverability class for every 20 feet of speed added or something.

That's a pretty elegant solution to that problem. I'll fix that now.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-27, 07:31 PM
No thanks. I saw that; being intentionally wrong is still wrong. "Sorceror" is not a word; it's a misspelling.

It's not a misspelling if it is not referring to the original. Just because it is similar to a word that has a similar meaning does not make it a misspelling of that word. This is a common literary tactic in many fantasy novels. Take it up with Terry Pratchet and his Sourcerer, which had a run in the millions that sold.

Again, open mouth, insert foot even deeper this time.

Icewalker
2009-01-27, 07:42 PM
I haven't been following your d20r system much, but when I saw the concept I was quite interested. I need to read up on what you've done.

A few minor fixes:
When you changed the spellweaving to 3+cha+level, you forgot to fix the example. It's still 3 too low.

How does the light seed offer a save for half? The only offensive thing it can do is blind, and I don't believe there are mechanics for half blind. :smallbiggrin:


This is a really awesome system, and the same kind of thing I've thought of before, the mix and match pieces for unique spells idea. Forces you to focus more on something like a blaster rather than a utility caster, but as that's the niche you were filling, this seems to work really well. I may throw together some seeds for this if I have the time.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-27, 07:47 PM
When you changed the spellweaving to 3+cha+level, you forgot to fix the example. It's still 3 too low.Ooh, good catch. I'll fix it later.


How does the light seed offer a save for half? The only offensive thing it can do is blind, and I don't believe there are mechanics for half blind. :smallbiggrin:Half damage. I suppose I should clarify that.


This is a really awesome system, and the same kind of thing I've thought of before, the mix and match pieces for unique spells idea. Forces you to focus more on something like a blaster rather than a utility caster, but as that's the niche you were filling, this seems to work really well. I may throw together some seeds for this if I have the time.I'm really happy with it too.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-27, 07:56 PM
Renegade Paladin: It is not a word, it's a name. And those get to be whatever they want and not be wrong.

On the Conceal Seed, I accidently typed Steal instead of Stealth on the second ability. :smallsigh: My bad.

Vigilant
Shape: Personal

Save: None
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Awareness checks for 1 minute.
*4 SP: the target gains a +4 bonus on initiative checks. You may cast this spell in before rolling for initiative.
*1 SP: increase the bonus by 1.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one target you are touching.
*Anticipate: you may act during the surprise round.
Runes
Shape: Personal

Save: Reflex half
*2 SP: you can read any written language, including magical texts, for 1 hour.
*1 SP: the next text you write cannot be read by anyone who can't read magical text.
*6 SP: the next text you write explodes dealing 2d6 force damage to everything in a 10' radius, including what it was written on, if read by anyone but you. If you apply the Allied Secret you may designate one other person who can read the text without causing it to explode.
*2 SP: increase the force damage by 1d6

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this spell to one target you are touching.
*Forceful: the spell bull-rushes the target, using a Strength bonus equal to the total number of dice of damage this spell inflicts.
*Strong: +1 DC

Note -- Everyone loves Exploding Runes. :smallbiggrin:

afroakuma
2009-01-27, 08:00 PM
Fax: Loving the new sorcerer. Needs more seeds to fiddle with, but it fits so nice.

spamoo
2009-01-27, 08:23 PM
Renegade Paladin: It is not a word, it's a name. And those get to be whatever they want and not be wrong.

On the Conceal Seed, I accidently typed Steal instead of Stealth on the second ability. :smallsigh: My bad.

Vigilant
Shape: Personal

Save: None
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Awareness checks for 1 minute.
*4 SP: the target gains a +4 bonus on initiative checks. You may cast this spell in before rolling for initiative.
*1 SP: increase the bonus by 1.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one target you are touching.
*Anticipate: you may act during the surprise round.
Runes
Shape: Personal

Save: Reflex half
*2 SP: you can read any written language, including magical texts, for 1 hour.
*1 SP: the next text you write cannot be read by anyone who can't read magical text.
*6 SP: the next text you write explodes dealing 2d6 force damage to everything in a 10' radius, including what it was written on, if read by anyone but you. If you apply the Allied Secret you may designate one other person who can read the text without causing it to explode.
*2 SP: increase the force damage by 1d6

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this spell to one target you are touching.
*Forceful: the spell bull-rushes the target, using a Strength bonus equal to the total number of dice of damage this spell inflicts.
*Strong: +1 DC

Note -- Everyone loves Exploding Runes. :smallbiggrin:

For the Runes seed, you should add some limitation to the exploding runes, such as one only having one (or a few) at a time.

Alteran
2009-01-27, 09:15 PM
It's not a misspelling if it is not referring to the original. Just because it is similar to a word that has a similar meaning does not make it a misspelling of that word. This is a common literary tactic in many fantasy novels.

See: Sorcelator. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/05/19/) :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-27, 09:53 PM
See: Sorcelator. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/05/19/) :smallbiggrin:

I was trying to use an example that anyone with an intellect greater than a Grapefruit could read without loosing their latest meal... :P

MammonAzrael
2009-01-27, 09:59 PM
More Seeds! :smallbiggrin:

Dispel
Shape: None

Save: None
*8 SP: as a targeted Dispel Magic
*2 SP: increase the maximum caster level by 1.

Secrets
*Distracting: for 1 round the target must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + you CL) if it attempts to cast a spell or lose the spell.

Poison
Shape: Touch

Save: Fort negates
*3 SP: cure the target of any poison and the target gains immunity to poison for 1 hour.
*4 SP: deliver poison that deals 1d4 primary and secondary temporary Constitution damage.
*4 SP: increase the poison's damage dice by one step.
*2 SP: change the ability score the poison targets.

Secrets
*Nauseating: the target is nauseated for one round. A Fortitude save negates this effect.
*Strong: +1 DC

Water
Shape: Personal

Save: Will negates
*6 SP: you gain a swim speed of 40' for 1 hour.
*2 SP: increase your swim speed by 10'.
*3 SP: you may breath underwater normally for 1 hour.
*8 SP: as long as you are underwater you act as if under Freedom of Movement for the duration of this spell.
*4 SP: increase the duration of the swim speed and underwater breathing by 1 hour.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one target you are touching.

Freedom
Shape: Personal

Save: None
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Escape Artist checks for 1 round.
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Escape Artist checks is increased by 1.
*10 SP: you may act as if under the Freedom of Movement spell for 1 round.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one target you are touching.
*Focused: you may cast this spell while grappled without making a Concentration check.

Word
Shape: None

Save: Will negates
*2 SP: the target is deafened for 1 round if it has 10 or less HP.
*4 SP: the target is dazed for 1 round if it has 10 or less HP.
*6 SP: the target is blinded for 1 round if it has 10 or less HP.
*8 SP: the target is stunned for 1 round if it has 10 or less HP.
*10 SP: the target is killed if it has less than 10 HP.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.
*1 SP: increase the HP limit by 10.

Secrets
*Focused: you may cast this spell while grappled without making a Concentration check.
*Strong: +1 DC

Note -- this Seed may offer too many options at once, but I liked the idea too much to not write it down. :smallsmile:

Detect
Shape: Personal

Save: None
*1 SP: the target can detect magic as the spell Detect Magic, for 1 minute.
*1 SP: the target can detect alignments as the Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law spells for 1 minute.
*3 SP: the target can see invisible creatures and objects for 1 minute.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one target you are touching.
*Darkseeing: the target's darkvision also applies in magical darkness.


And some other ideas that occurred to me for Seeds:

Knowledge
Bonus to knowledge checks
???

Earth
Burrow speed
tremorsense
earthquake

Secure
force wall/cage
forbiddance

Warning
alarm
ward

Death
raise dead
turn/rebuke undead

elemental
summon elemental
survive elemental conditions
???

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-27, 10:16 PM
Too powerful, and stepping on a Cleric's toes too much. Poison seed curing poison? And the whole Death seed doesn't actually kill anything, it just duplicates a couple of Cleric abilities. I haven't gone over all of them yet, but you need to make sure you don't make another Batman...

MammonAzrael
2009-01-27, 10:21 PM
Right now I'm just tossing out ideas. Seeds are extremely modular, there's no reason not to try whatever you can think up. Don't forget that over their 20 level career they only gain access to 11 Seeds, and they don't get to switch them out or anything like that.

What's wrong with the the poison seed being able to cure poison as well as inflict it. It may be giving the seed too much flexability, but I got the impression that your comment was more flavor related.

As for the Death seed, its just a name idea. It could easily be the Undead Seed, or Necromancy Seed, or whatever else.

I'm not sure how Fax has decided to split up arcane and divine magic, so I'm trying not to restrict myself. Afterall, even if there are Seeds that are too "Divine" to be on the normal list, they might fit into a PrC.

Draz74
2009-01-27, 10:26 PM
I've got no big problems with Sorcerors curing poison, but 3 points seems awfully cheap. Curing poison -- automatically -- at Level 1. Clerics can't even do that until Level 7, and they can't do it infinitely.

Mando Knight
2009-01-27, 10:36 PM
I've got no big problems with Sorcerors curing poison, but 3 points seems awfully cheap. Curing poison -- automatically -- at Level 1. Clerics can't even do that until Level 7, and they can't do it infinitely.

Then put a minimum level on that seed... like, say, 7.

Knaight
2009-01-27, 10:44 PM
Have you considered Noun-Verb style seeds? Ie you might have a create seed, which you might pair with an earth seed, or a metal seed, or a fire seed, etc. Repel and Distort for instance would make great modification seeds for defensive spells, and intercepting spells (counter spelling when actual counter spelling isn't going to happen)

MammonAzrael
2009-01-27, 10:48 PM
Or take it off the Poison Seed and toss it on a Restorative-based Seed, that only heals status effects. It's not terrible if they get it earlier because they've devoted one of their 11 Seeds to something that is only occasionally useful. Or make it only acquirable through a PrC, which effectively gives it a level requirement, with technically giving any Seeds a prerequisite.

Water could easily lose the Freedom of Movement option, poison could lose the cure poison option, Word could...well, word could stand to be broken (and the HP increase should probably be 2 SP minimum). Get the ideas out, then fine tune! (otherwise I'll obssess over balance and never get the ideas out:smallsigh:) But I don't want to edit anything until Fax checks them out.

EDIT:I like the Noun-Verb idea too, and it would probably solve some funkiness problems, but it does take away from the uber-modularity of Seeds as they stand now.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-27, 10:58 PM
Have you considered Noun-Verb style seeds? Ie you might have a create seed, which you might pair with an earth seed, or a metal seed, or a fire seed, etc. Repel and Distort for instance would make great modification seeds for defensive spells, and intercepting spells (counter spelling when actual counter spelling isn't going to happen)

I like the idea of Noun-Verb style seeds. That way you don't have the horrid problem is having both ice and fire in the same spell, wondering which one to use. That way you could have something like Ice + Cone = Cone of Cold, or Force + Entangle = Evard's Black Tentacles.

Perhaps something like Flavor + Shape?

Draz74
2009-01-28, 01:58 AM
How about Madness + Barrier = Evard's Black Tentacles?

Anyway ...

Seed: Barrier

Shape: Line

Save: Will Partial
*4 SP: The area of this spell becomes difficult terrain for one round.
*3 SP: The area of this spell blocks line of sight for one round. This can be overcome by a successful Will save.
*1 SP: The duration of this spell increases by one round.
*3 SP: The difficult terrain caused even affects flying things.

Secrets
Danger: Any creature that enters the terrain modified by this spell suffers half the effects of any other seeds that are part of this spell (e.g. half the damage).

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-28, 12:33 PM
I still don't like the Sorcerer being able to heal and fix things.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-28, 12:36 PM
Fax is the one who suggested the Heal Seed. I think most Seeds that have healing/fixing abilities will either not be used, or only available to certain PrCs.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-28, 12:57 PM
I still don't like the Sorcerer being able to heal and fix things.

Heal and a couple of the ones that Mammon posted in his most recent will be Prestige Seeds: that is, available only after entering a certain PrC.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-28, 02:43 PM
5 more Seeds

Vigor
Shape: Personal

Save: None
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Athletics checks for 1 round.
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Athletics checks is increased by 1.
*4 SP: the target gains temporary hit points equal to their modifier to Athletics checks that last for 1 round.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Invigorating: the target gain temporary HP equal to the number of rounds the spell lasts.
*Refreshing: the target is cured of fatigue and exhaustion, and is immune to those conditions for the duration of the spell.
*Trained: you are treated as if you are trained in the skill(s) this spell boosts.

Knowledge
Shape: Personal

Save: None
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on all Knowledge checks for 1 round.
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Knowledge checks is increased by 1.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.
*12 SP: you may apply one Secret you don't know to this spell, as long as it could normally be applied to the spell.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Trained: you are treated as if you are trained in the skill(s) this spell boosts.

Vile
Shape: Ray

Save: Reflex half
*6 SP: 1d4 vile damage. This ability cannot be purchased multiple times.
*3 SP: +1 vile damage.

Secrets
*Desensitizing: the spell also blinds or deafens the target (your choice) for the duration.
*Nauseating: the target is nauseated for one round. A Fortitude save negates this effect.
*Strong: +1 DC.
*Wounding: the spell also deals 1 Constitution damage.

Earth
Shape: Personal

Save: Will negates
*6 SP: you gain a burrow speed of 20' for 1 minute.
*2 SP: increase your burrow speed by 5' for 1 hour.
*4 SP: increase the duration by 1 minute. This ability cannot be applied to a target who did not gain their burrow speed through this seed.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Reverberating: the target also gains tremorsense 10'.

Survival
Shape: Personal

Save: None
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Survival checks for 1 round.
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Survival checks is increased by 1.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.
*4 SP: the target is unaffected by hot or cold as if under the Endure Elements spell for 24 hours.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Trained: you are treated as if you are trained in the skill(s) this spell boosts.

Notes --
I would add the Trained Secret to the Conceal, Freedom, and Vigilant Seeds.
I would change the Allied Secret from "one target you are touching" to "one ally you are touching."
The 12 SP ability on the Knowledge Seed may be too powerful, making every Sorceror want to grab it, but I'm not sure what else could be down with the Knowledge Seed atm.
Change the Water Seed's Swim speed from 1 hour to 1 minute to keep it in line with the Fly Seed.
The Earth Seed feels like it should do something other than just give you a burrow speed. Or perhaps not, depending on how specialized Seeds get.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-28, 04:57 PM
5 more Seeds

Vigor
Shape: Personal

Save: None
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Athletics checks for 1 round.
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Athletics checks is increased by 1.
*4 SP: the target gains temporary hit points equal to their modifier to Athletics checks that last for 1 round.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Invigorating: the target gain temporary HP equal to the number of rounds the spell lasts.
*Refreshing: the target is cured of fatigue and exhaustion, and is immune to those conditions for the duration of the spell.
*Trained: you are treated as if you are trained in the skill(s) this spell boosts.

Knowledge
Shape: Personal

Save: None
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on all Knowledge checks for 1 round.
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Knowledge checks is increased by 1.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.
*12 SP: you may apply one Secret you don't know to this spell, as long as it could normally be applied to the spell.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Trained: you are treated as if you are trained in the skill(s) this spell boosts.

Vile
Shape: Ray

Save: Reflex half
*6 SP: 1d4 vile damage. This ability cannot be purchased multiple times.
*3 SP: +1 vile damage.

Secrets
*Desensitizing: the spell also blinds or deafens the target (your choice) for the duration.
*Nauseating: the target is nauseated for one round. A Fortitude save negates this effect.
*Strong: +1 DC.
*Wounding: the spell also deals 1 Constitution damage.

Earth
Shape: Personal

Save: Will negates
*6 SP: you gain a burrow speed of 20' for 1 minute.
*2 SP: increase your burrow speed by 5' for 1 hour.
*4 SP: increase the duration by 1 minute. This ability cannot be applied to a target who did not gain their burrow speed through this seed.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Reverberating: the target also gains tremorsense 10'.

Survival
Shape: Personal

Save: None
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Survival checks for 1 round.
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Survival checks is increased by 1.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.
*4 SP: the target is unaffected by hot or cold as if under the Endure Elements spell for 24 hours.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Trained: you are treated as if you are trained in the skill(s) this spell boosts.

Notes --
I would add the Trained Secret to the Conceal, Freedom, and Vigilant Seeds.
I would change the Allied Secret from "one target you are touching" to "one ally you are touching."
The 12 SP ability on the Knowledge Seed may be too powerful, making every Sorceror want to grab it, but I'm not sure what else could be down with the Knowledge Seed atm.
Change the Water Seed's Swim speed from 1 hour to 1 minute to keep it in line with the Fly Seed.
The Earth Seed feels like it should do something other than just give you a burrow speed. Or perhaps not, depending on how specialized Seeds get.


Knowledge Domain can let him do Identify for the 12 point version. Perhaps this is also how you get See Invis, Mage Sight, and other such effects...

Earth... Shape Earth. Can be used with Craft check to do fun out-of-combat stuff. Quakewave: Fort save or be knocked prone, only works on creatures on the ground. Mud Jet, sprays mud in a cone, Fort Save or Blind for a number of rounds, may make ground slippery forcing Balance checks or knocked prone.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-28, 10:34 PM
I may be the only one seeing a problem with this, but I think the system may not work as well as you're hoping for. It is cool and everything, and I agree that it's good for the sorcerer to be a highly modular caster, but the system presents a number of headaches as well.

From the player side, you have to build your spell, essentially from scratch, every single round. Psionics is a little like this, but the basic effects aren't anywhere near as modular. This sounds like a good thing, but all the extra freedom is going to take a lot of extra time. Witness as players take extra long turns, especially at high levels, carefully crafting each and every spell they cast. This, of course, is an experienced and intelligent player, the kind you can trust to do this sort of number crunching and who revels the chance to build his own spells. Now picture the other kind of player, the one who isn't very clear on all the rules, maybe new or just thick. The DM, or other players, now have to look over his shoulder every round to make sure he's building his spells correctly, reminding him of his total and what he has to spend, making sure he has accounted for the right number of d6s etc. Yes, a player could do this during other people's turns, but when you get down to brass tacks, it is increasing turn time and slowing down combat- not something you want, especially in a "fixed" system.

From a DM's perspective this system could also get frustrating fast. First, as mentioned above, it'll be very difficult to make sure your players are crafting and resolving their spells correctly. You probably won't have the time and energy to double check everything, and if you do, combat lags. But combat will lag anyway, when the sorcerer catches 6 enemies in a burst and each of them has to roll 3 saving throws for different elemental dice damage and then has to re-roll on the following round becuase it's lingering or whatever else. Then the sorcerer casts the same spell again, maybe with the dice split up differently. It's been two rounds and you've now rolled over about 70 saving throws. I appreciate what you're doing here, but it doesn't seem optimal. You have some kinks to iron out, IMO.


EDIT: OK, I'm back again. I realized I typed that huge wall of complaints without offering any actual advice on how to fix it.

For problem number one, long crafting times in combat, you could make it so the sorcerer creates spells on a per-encounter basis, and once he crafts a spell using spellweaving, that spell is a permanant spell known for that encounter, then have his "seeds known" double for his "max crafted spells/encounter" score. This way, they could write down crafted spells as they go and come back to them. You could also reset spells daily instead of per encounter, so a decision you make early in the day lingers throughout.

For problem number two, intensive save rolling, you could say that each spells has one and only one save which is based on the spell's primary seed. The primary seed is the seed that has the most SP invested into it at casting time. On a tie, the sorcerer chooses primary seed.

These are just ideas to show you that the problems are addressable. I fully expect you to come up with better solutions than these, but as one designer to another, I do urge you to consider these little design hiccups in the d20r sorcerer.

Draz74
2009-01-29, 03:18 AM
I may be the only one seeing a problem with this,

For what it's worth I think you raise some good points here.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-29, 12:34 PM
From the player side, you have to build your spell, essentially from scratch, every single round. Psionics is a little like this, but the basic effects aren't anywhere near as modular. This sounds like a good thing, but all the extra freedom is going to take a lot of extra time.Potentially. An experienced sorceror will likely write down frequently used combinations (such as the one where he always opens a fight with a 20' Sphere Double-Hexing attack rolls and saves Hex) and go with those.


Witness as players take extra long turns, especially at high levels, carefully crafting each and every spell they cast. This, of course, is an experienced and intelligent player, the kind you can trust to do this sort of number crunching and who revels the chance to build his own spells. Now picture the other kind of player, the one who isn't very clear on all the rules, maybe new or just thick. The DM, or other players, now have to look over his shoulder every round to make sure he's building his spells correctly, reminding him of his total and what he has to spend, making sure he has accounted for the right number of d6s etc. Yes, a player could do this during other people's turns, but when you get down to brass tacks, it is increasing turn time and slowing down combat- not something you want, especially in a "fixed" system. See, I don't see this as taking any more time than your typical Factotum or Warblade (or, if you want to stick to d20r material, than the Fencer or Cartomancer). I could understand the "time" argument if there was, say, some sort of formula needed (2+(2*number of times this ability has been purchased) SP, for instance), but since it's just simple subtraction (3 SP = 1d6 damage) I don't see the slowdown.


From a DM's perspective this system could also get frustrating fast. First, as mentioned above, it'll be very difficult to make sure your players are crafting and resolving their spells correctly. You probably won't have the time and energy to double check everything, and if you do, combat lags. But combat will lag anyway, when the sorcerer catches 6 enemies in a burst and each of them has to roll 3 saving throws for different elemental dice damage and then has to re-roll on the following round becuase it's lingering or whatever else. Then the sorcerer casts the same spell again, maybe with the dice split up differently. It's been two rounds and you've now rolled over about 70 saving throws. I appreciate what you're doing here, but it doesn't seem optimal. You have some kinks to iron out, IMO. Okay, the multisaves thing I can understand, but I think you're looking at it wrong. Energy damage is a Reflex save (except for Cold, but that's the exception to the rule), and as such only one save (max, two) would be needed for all of the energy damage. The majority of the effects presented here are Ref or Fort saves, with very little in the way of Will saves, so getting a triple-save spell is difficult (and not unprecedented, anyway: take a look at the great thunderclap spell, which is a Ref save or be prone, Fort save or be deaf, Will save or be stunned, and affects an area rather than the base ray that the sorceror's spells do).


For problem number one, long crafting times in combat, you could make it so the sorcerer creates spells on a per-encounter basis, and once he crafts a spell using spellweaving, that spell is a permanant spell known for that encounter, then have his "seeds known" double for his "max crafted spells/encounter" score. This way, they could write down crafted spells as they go and come back to them. You could also reset spells daily instead of per encounter, so a decision you make early in the day lingers throughout. That kinda goes counter to the intent of the class.


For problem number two, intensive save rolling, you could say that each spells has one and only one save which is based on the spell's primary seed. The primary seed is the seed that has the most SP invested into it at casting time. On a tie, the sorcerer chooses primary seed.This is something I may consider as a change and may even include as a variant rule even if I don't make it the base function of the class.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-29, 01:04 PM
Potentially. An experienced sorceror will likely write down frequently used combinations (such as the one where he always opens a fight with a 20' Sphere Double-Hexing attack rolls and saves Hex) and go with those.

Sure, but as the sorcerer get more and more seeds/secrets this will grow more and more complex. Yes, they can write down their frequently used spells, but if I'm not mistaken, the intent of the class is to be as modular as possible, able to craft a specific spell for each situation as it presents itself. It seem disingenuous to make this claim, and then say "but players shouldn't actually do this, they should have a list of pre-crafted spells they use."



See, I don't see this as taking any more time than your typical Factotum or Warblade (or, if you want to stick to d20r material, than the Fencer or Cartomancer). I could understand the "time" argument if there was, say, some sort of formula needed (2+(2*number of times this ability has been purchased) SP, for instance), but since it's just simple subtraction (3 SP = 1d6 damage) I don't see the slowdown.

It may not be as bad as I'm thinking, but when the class is used to its full potential, I see it taking a lot longer than a factotum, who just needs to decide how many inspiration points to spend, most uses of which give a simple combat bonus, or have a specific point-to-effect use (spend three points to turn undead, or cast a spell, for example).



Okay, the multisaves thing I can understand, but I think you're looking at it wrong. Energy damage is a Reflex save (except for Cold, but that's the exception to the rule), and as such only one save (max, two) would be needed for all of the energy damage. The majority of the effects presented here are Ref or Fort saves, with very little in the way of Will saves, so getting a triple-save spell is difficult (and not unprecedented, anyway: take a look at the great thunderclap spell, which is a Ref save or be prone, Fort save or be deaf, Will save or be stunned, and affects an area rather than the base ray that the sorceror's spells do).


Just because there is precedent for a multi-save spell doesn't mean it's a positive thing for your system. Suffice to say, the spellweaving system encourages players to create spells that are unique, and one way to do so is to mix energy types, creating multiple-save spells. As more seeds are added on, it will become easier and easier to do so, and if it's possible to get triple-save spells, players will do so. Not all the time, but often enough that it can become an annoyance.



That kinda goes counter to the intent of the class.


You're right, of course. It was just one suggestion. I expect you'll come up with a better way to solve this problem.



This is something I may consider as a change and may even include as a variant rule even if I don't make it the base function of the class.

Anything that cuts down on rolls in combat is a good thing. :smallsmile:

Fax Celestis
2009-01-29, 01:10 PM
Sure, but as the sorcerer get more and more seeds/secrets this will grow more and more complex. Yes, they can write down their frequently used spells, but if I'm not mistaken, the intent of the class is to be as modular as possible, able to craft a specific spell for each situation as it presents itself. It seem disingenuous to make this claim, and then say "but players shouldn't actually do this, they should have a list of pre-crafted spells they use."Well, no. The intent of having out a short list of pre-crafted spells is to speed the process of the game along, not to remove customizability. But just because a sorceror can have a pre-crafted spell doesn't mean he needs to or even should.


It may not be as bad as I'm thinking, but when the class is used to its full potential, I see it taking a lot longer than a factotum, who just needs to decide how many inspiration points to spend, most uses of which give a simple combat bonus, or have a specific point-to-effect use (spend three points to turn undead, or cast a spell, for example).Well, I'll be playtesting the sorceror starting at ECL 5 and going upwards very soon, so we can see about speed and difficulty at that point.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-29, 02:35 PM
Seeds

Agile
Shape: Personal

Save: None
*2 SP: the target gets a +4 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks for 1 round.
*1 SP: the competence bonus on Acrobatics checks is increased by 1.
*4 SP: the target gains a +2 competence bonus to Reflex saves for 1 round.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Invigorating: the target gain temporary HP equal to the number of rounds the spell lasts.
*Evasive: the target gains Evasion.
*Trained: the target is treated as if they are trained in the skill(s) this spell boosts.

Wolf
Shape: Personal

Save: None
*3 SP: you gain a bite attack that deals 1d6 (if medium) + Strength modifier damage for 1 round.
*2 SP: increase the damage die of your bite attack by 1 for 1 round.
*6 SP: your bite attack gains the Trip ability of a Wolf for 1 round.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Invigorating: the target gain temporary HP equal to the number of rounds the spell lasts.

Weapon
Shape: Touch

Save: None
*6 SP: the touched weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls for 1 round.
*4 SP: increase the enhancement bonus gained by 1.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Distracting: for 1 round the target must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + you CL) if it attempts to cast a spell or lose the spell.

Seeds might benefit from a Duration line, that dictates the duration of the effects from that seed. It might help to clean them up a bit, and make it simple and clear what effects last how long when you mix seed effects with different durations.


Well, I'll be playtesting the sorceror starting at ECL 5 and going upwards very soon, so we can see about speed and difficulty at that point.

If you're doing the playtesting online, and need more players, I'd be more than happy to toss my hat in.


Knowledge Domain can let him do Identify for the 12 point version. Perhaps this is also how you get See Invis, Mage Sight, and other such effects...

Earth... Shape Earth. Can be used with Craft check to do fun out-of-combat stuff. Quakewave: Fort save or be knocked prone, only works on creatures on the ground. Mud Jet, sprays mud in a cone, Fort Save or Blind for a number of rounds, may make ground slippery forcing Balance checks or knocked prone.

I like these ideas, especially the Identify for Knowledge one.

lesser_minion
2009-01-29, 04:04 PM
OK, looking at this I'm going to award it a tentative thumbs up. You've managed to convey a sense of sorcery being intuitive rather than formulaic, I like the idea of permitting light armour. I definitely like it better than the original plan you had posted in the main d20r thread, although that is mainly because I see the thing that sets sorcerers apart as actually being their reliability - they are the ones who tear up the formulae and just get on with casting because they can.

I think I'll need more time to crunch numbers before I can give anything more than a gut reaction to the system, but I'm not sure about the SP mechanic - it feels like the class is pretty limited in what it can achieve at the moment compared with other builds.


From the player side, you have to build your spell, essentially from scratch, every single round. Psionics is a little like this, but the basic effects aren't anywhere near as modular. This sounds like a good thing, but all the extra freedom is going to take a lot of extra time. Witness as players take extra long turns, especially at high levels, carefully crafting each and every spell they cast.

I don't really see this being a problem any more than skill use, unusual spell use (situationally awesome evocation and transmutation), or anywhere else the DM has to start adjudicating.

Triaxx
2009-01-29, 09:03 PM
Repeat
Shape: As original seed

Save: As original seed
*5 SP Repeat: Apply a seed, such as force, more than once in a spell.
*+2 SP Additional Repeats: Add 2 SP required for each application of repeat in a single spell. Maximum of 5 repeats.
*15 SP Multiple: Fire a spell twice, doubling cost +15 SP

Secrets:
*Targetting: Split targeting of repeats among multiple targets.

Yes, it's intended to be magic missile.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-29, 10:56 PM
Grease
Shape: 5' radius Sphere

Save: Reflex negates
*6 SP: for 1 round, anything in the area or enters the area of the spell makes a DC 10 Acrobatics check or falls prone.
*2 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Imbued: effects from any other seeds in this spell persist and affect everything in the area or that enters the area of the spell each round.
*Immobilizing: the spell immobilizes the target instead.
*Strong: +1 DC

Cloud
Shape: 10' radius Sphere

Save: Fortitude negates
*4 SP: for 1 round, sight within the spell area is obscured beyond 5', and creatures farther than 5' have total concealment.
*2 SP: creatures within 5' have concealment.
*2 SP: increase the duration by 1 round.

Secrets
*Imbued: effects from any other seeds in this spell persist and affect everything in the area or that enters the area of the spell each round.
*Strong: +1 DC

vegetalss4
2009-02-04, 04:28 AM
i have made an analysis of the number of spell points avalibe to the typical sorceror, what it says of balance i do not know, but perhaps it can help other people figuring that out.

Asuming a drow sorcerer with the elite array, that puts its 15 in cha for a total cha of 17, standard wealth, items and prices for stat boosters from 3.5, and also assuming you may use a maximum of half your wealth on a single item (if you change that you change this)

Level points Cha increases
1 7
2 8
3 9
4 11 first stat increase now 18 cha
5 13 cloak of charisma +2 now 20 cha
6 14
7 15
8 16 second stat increase now 21 cha
9 18 cloak of charisma + 4 now 23
10 19
11 22 cloak of charisma + 6 tome of leader ship +1 now 26 cha
12 23 third stat increase now 27 cha
13 25 tome of leader ship +2 now 28 cha
14 26
15 27 tome of leader ship +3 now 29 cha
16 29 fourth stat increase, tome of leader ship +4 now 31 cha
17 31 tome of leader ship +5 now 32 cha
18 32
19 33
20 34 fifth stat increase now 33 cha

Draz74
2009-02-04, 11:30 AM
Drow have a Level Adjustment, so they may not be the best standard to base this on. On the other hand, most people seem to dislike the Elite Array (it really is slightly weaker, on average, than the 4d6-drop-one rolling system; 28-point buy is a better equivalent), so I think you can assume starting with a 16 base Charisma rather than 15.

MammonAzrael
2009-02-04, 01:41 PM
I agree with Draz74, vegetalss4. You've chosen some very unusual parameters for your baseline. Personally, I'd say it's closer to...

Starting with a base of 16 in Charisma. Yes 18 is the optimal, but it is highly uncommon, while 16 is pretty standard to get into your main stat.

+2 racial bonus. I'll be assuming the use of a lesser Aasimar, since it's a LA +0 race and is commonly accepted. (And it' the only 0 LA race I can think of that boosts Cha :smalltongue:)

So, a starting Charisma of 18 (pretty good, but easily obtainable), and normal WBL. And assuming you're trying to pump your Charisma over everything else.


{table=head]Level|
Spellweave[br]Points|Charisma|Stat Boosts
1|8|18|16 base, +2 race
2|9|18|--
3|10|18|--
4|11|19|+1 level increase
5|13|21|+2 Cloak of Charisma (44.4% of WBL)
6|14|21|--
7|15|21|--
8|17|22|+1 level increase
9|19|24|+4 Cloak of Charisma (44.4% of WBL)
10|20|24|--
11|21|24|--
12|23|27|+1 level increase, +6 Cloak of Charisma (40.9% of WBL)
13|24|27|--
14|25|27|--
15|26|27|--
16|28|28|+1 level increase
17|31|33|+5 Tome of Leadership and Influence (40.4% of WBL)
18|32|33|--
19|33|33|--
20|35|34|+1 level increase[/table]

And then if you're really trying to maximize Spellweave Pints you can toss in your Wisdom modifier (16 base + 2 race + 6 item = 24) for 7 more points, for a grand total of 42 points. That lets you make a standard damaging ray of 14d6 every round. Strong, but not broken, I'd say.

If you're worried about the amount you could normally wind up being able to use every turn, I'd say there are several ways to curb it.

Have Perceptive Spellweaving replace Charisma with Wisdom.
Get bonus Spellweave points only from your unmodified Charisma score (so no Cloak of Charisma, but yes to inherent/level bonuses).
Limit it to X under your Charisma score.
Plenty more I'm sure I'm not thinking of.


Of course, that assumes you weren't expecting those numbers off the bat.

Draz74
2009-02-04, 02:41 PM
Have Perceptive Spellweaving replace Charisma with Wisdom.

I'm definitely in favor of this one. (I've implied that, but not stated it outright, before.) But then, I generally think MAD is a good way to keep casters more under control.

vegetalss4
2009-02-04, 03:27 PM
i used the d20r drow with i propaly should have stated i chose drow because they are the only sorcerortype race as of yet updated.
i know that elite aray are sligthly weaker than 4d6b3 but do not have better numbers to base it of. however spell points would at most vary with 1 from the number i have generated, because of this.

Kaihaku
2009-02-05, 07:21 AM
Very nice, I love this type of design methodology. Last year, I made an attempt to write up an adventure game (classic style) using this sort of spell system (words of magic as seeds) which worked well enough for text but ended slamming into a wall of graphical frustration.

Regardless, very nice and I'll continue to keep an eye on this.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-07, 04:37 PM
Hokay. Hella seeds added and altered; gave duration lines; changed base shape from "Ray" to "Target" in most instances; changed range from 25'+5'/2 lev to 25'+5'/lev; added Living Spellseed Familiar feature.

lesser_minion
2009-02-07, 06:20 PM
OK, I really like the idea of a living spellseed familiar. Would it be worth granting the familiar the traditional ability of share spells? It seems worth allowing a familiar built using one of the buff seeds to affect the sorcerer with its spells, as well as just itself.

Otherwise, the ability to double up on one spell seed seems like quite a nice power. I haven't crunched the numbers, but it doesn't feel unbalanced (I'm not really an optimiser, though)

Does the sorceror choose her living spellseed's shape? I couldn't see anything about the appearance of a living spellseed in it's own thread or here.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-07, 06:33 PM
OK, I really like the idea of a living spellseed familiar. Would it be worth granting the familiar the traditional ability of share spells? It seems worth allowing a familiar built using one of the buff seeds to affect the sorcerer with its spells, as well as just itself.

Otherwise, the ability to double up on one spell seed seems like quite a nice power. I haven't crunched the numbers, but it doesn't feel unbalanced (I'm not really an optimiser, though)

Does the sorceror choose her living spellseed's shape? I couldn't see anything about the appearance of a living spellseed in it's own thread or here.

Yeah. The living spellseed can look like whatever you want it to. I should qualify that it's amorphous (but not an ooze or a shapechanger). Generally, though, they look like their parent seed: a living fire spellseed might look like an animate jet of flame, while a living wolf spellseed might look like a wolf or dog.

MammonAzrael
2009-02-07, 06:42 PM
It is a very cool familiar, but could have some oddities. What happens if a Living Spellseed familiar dies? How/can a Sorceror acquire a new one? What if the base Seed is something like Sense, can the Living Spellseed refrain from adding the effect onto it's attack if it wants?

Oh, and while I know I wrote it, I'm pretty sure the Word Seed is too strong. The HP increase should probably be 2 SP instead of one, otherwise you could have Sorcerors that can Power Word: Kill something with 300+ HP. :smalleek:

The Wolf Seed could probably use the Allied Secret.

Overall, great additions! :smallsmile:

Fax Celestis
2009-02-07, 06:45 PM
It is a very cool familiar, but could have some oddities. What happens if a Living Spellseed familiar dies? How/can a Sorceror acquire a new one? What if the base Seed is something like Sense, can the Living Spellseed refrain from adding the effect onto it's attack if it wants? I'll get to this. I knew I was forgetting something.


Oh, and while I know I wrote it, I'm pretty sure the Word Seed is too strong. The HP increase should probably be 2 SP instead of one, otherwise you could have Sorcerors that can Power Word: Kill something with 300+ HP. :smalleek: Yeah, Edea and I were going over that. We'll fix that.


The Wolf Seed could probably use the Allied Secret.
I'll add that in next edit.

thegurullamen
2009-02-07, 06:50 PM
I liked the original seeds a lot better than this list. Am I the only one who finds a list containing elemental things like fire and electricity and force also containing something like "Wolf" just a little Narmy? I'm not complaining against the wolf power, but the list just doesn't have that same feel that it used to; now it's just really weird odds and ends.

Love the living spellseed, though. For the sorcs who wanted an elemental familiar without wasting a crap feat on a crap familiar. The mixes are all pretty, cool, too. A hexing fire-wolf, a misty spheroid that shoots black lightning, a floating geometric crystal that can open fissures in the ground that spit thunder. Flavorful and free-form.

MammonAzrael
2009-02-07, 07:08 PM
I liked the original seeds a lot better than this list. Am I the only one who finds a list containing elemental things like fire and electricity and force also containing something like "Wolf" just a little Narmy? I'm not complaining against the wolf power, but the list just doesn't have that same feel that it used to; now it's just really weird odds and ends.

How dare you disparage my naming conventions!?! :smallwink:

I see your point, and I find myself agreeing with it. I'm sure cooler names could be created for seeds, and the initial list streamlined. But that doesn't mean random odds and ends Seeds can't be saved for extra material! :smallsmile:

Oh, and just for you:

Feline
Shape: Personal
Save: None
Duration: 1 minute
*3 SP: You gain 2 claw attacks that deal 1d4 (if medium) + Strength modifier damage each.
*6 SP: You gain the Rake special ability (1d4+Str modifier).
*9 SP: You gain the Pounce special ability.
*1 SP: increase the duration by 1 minute.

Secrets
*Allied: you may apply this effect to one ally you are touching.
*Evasive: the target gains Evasion.

:smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2009-02-07, 07:15 PM
Comparing the possibilities of Seeds to those of traditional wizard spells, I don't see an issue with such a variety.

thegurullamen
2009-02-07, 07:31 PM
I'm not discussing variety, I'm discussing aesthetics. By all means, keep Wolf and Barrier and all other seeds you have listed. What I'm against is placing specific names in a list of abstract generalities. When you say Ice on this list, your mind can go to any number of visualizations (say, a floating ice crystal or a blast of frosty air or a crystalline imp), but with Wolf, you aren't thinking about wolf aspect, you're thinking about a wolf. It's incongruous with everything else on the list and I believe it makes the whole worse off for it.

As a rule, go vague. Beast instead of Wolf for example.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-07, 07:36 PM
I'm not discussing variety, I'm discussing aesthetics. By all means, keep Wolf and Barrier and all other seeds you have listed. What I'm against is placing specific names in a list of abstract generalities. When you say Ice on this list, your mind can go to any number of visualizations (say, a floating ice crystal or a blast of frosty air or a crystalline imp), but with Wolf, you aren't thinking about wolf aspect, you're thinking about a wolf. It's incongruous with everything else on the list and I believe it makes the whole worse off for it.

As a rule, go vague. Beast instead of Wolf for example.

I gotcha. I was just thinking you were talking about mechanical variety instead of nomenclature.

thegurullamen
2009-02-07, 07:59 PM
Here's a list of the ones I think need a revision, though of course YMMV (especially for the sort-of ones.)

Agile
Barrier
Conceal (sort of...consider "Shadow" instead)
Fly (I think "Flight" works better)
Freedom (sort of...)
Knowledge
Protect (sort of...)
Runes (sort of...)
Survival
Vigilant
Weapon (sort of...)
Wolf
Word (sort of...)

Feel free to discuss and pick this list apart.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-10, 05:14 PM
Cooperative Spellweaving
Prerequisites: Spellweaving class feature, Spellcraft 8 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 8 ranks
Benefit: With this feat, you may either begin or take part in a cooperative spellweave.

To begin a cooperative spellweave, spend a full-round action in concentration (provoking attacks of opportunity) and add a number of Spellweave Points to a pool equal to what you would acquire through the normal use of your Spellweaving ability.

At the beginning of your next turn, as a standard action, you may cast a spell using the total number of Spellweave Points in the pool, as if you had acquired them via using your Spellweaving ability. You may only use seeds and secrets that you know, not those that others who are participating in the cooperative spellweave know but you do not.

To take part in a cooperative spellweave, spend a standard action in concentration (provoking attacks of opportunity) and add a number of Spellweave Points equal to half the number you would normally receive via your Spellweaving ability.

Blood Magic
Prerequisites: Spellweaving class feature, Heal 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks
Benefit: When casting a spell using your Spellweaving class feature, you may voluntarily take Constitution damage to obtain extra Spellweave Points. For each point of Constitution damage you take in this fashion, add 3 points to your pool of SP. This damage cannot be prevented or reduced through class features, feats, spells, or items, but it may be healed as normal after the fact.

thegurullamen
2009-02-10, 05:28 PM
Cooperative Spellweaving
Blood Magic


Nova sorcnuke lolz?

I like that you've got a core blood magic flavor (hated that the only option in 3.5 was the sort-of-blah BMagus.) Tentative thumbs up on these. Not sure what kind of powersplosions you'll get if you minmax it, but good flavor.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-10, 05:36 PM
Cooperative Spellweaving can be powerful, but it has a huge opportunity cost: not only do you need to spend a feat on two spellweavers, but you also have to spend more actions to activate it than normal.

Blood Magic can also be powerful, but it's dangerous. Unpreventable Con damage means lower HP, lower Fort saves, and generally more fragility.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-10, 07:57 PM
Cooperative Spellweaving can be powerful, but it has a huge opportunity cost: not only do you need to spend a feat on two spellweavers, but you also have to spend more actions to activate it than normal.

Blood Magic can also be powerful, but it's dangerous. Unpreventable Con damage means lower HP, lower Fort saves, and generally more fragility.

Make it Con Burn which cannot be healed by magic and Blood Magic will be useful, otherwise see also: Hellfire Warlock Con Damage Mitigation Abuse.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-10, 08:08 PM
Make it Con Burn which cannot be healed by magic and Blood Magic will be useful, otherwise see also: Hellfire Warlock Con Damage Mitigation Abuse.

Already accounted for:


This damage cannot be prevented or reduced through class features, feats, spells, or items, but it may be healed as normal after the fact.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-10, 08:34 PM
Already accounted for:

Hellfire Warlock already has this. It doesn't work, due to many items which cure con damage as soon as it is taken, such as Naberous (which is why it is used more frequently than Stone Vest, which arguabally doesn't work because it is mitigation rather than repairing). Also, a friendly cleric with Restoration or Heal spell can fix you right up no problem.

You need to make it unable to be healed by magic, must heal normally, as with some of the psionic effects.

thegurullamen
2009-02-10, 08:42 PM
Hellfire Warlock already has this. It doesn't work, due to many items which cure con damage as soon as it is taken, such as Naberous (which is why it is used more frequently than Stone Vest, which arguabally doesn't work because it is mitigation rather than repairing). Also, a friendly cleric with Restoration or Heal spell can fix you right up no problem.

You need to make it unable to be healed by magic, must heal normally, as with some of the psionic effects.

Arguably, you're having a cleric toss away a high powered Heal spell so you can nuke something. I think the rarity of the effective ways to regain lost Con points balances out the one-shot high-point Armageddon.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-10, 09:31 PM
Arguably, you're having a cleric toss away a high powered Heal spell so you can nuke something. I think the rarity of the effective ways to regain lost Con points balances out the one-shot high-point Armageddon.

Wand of Lesser Restoration costs 4,500 and has 50 charges of restoring 1d4 Con damage. That's... quite a bit, for not a lot of cash.

Hell, Wand of Restoration flat pops you to full, although it does cost 26k, due to material components.

thegurullamen
2009-02-10, 09:43 PM
Wand of Lesser Restoration costs 4,500 and has 50 charges of restoring 1d4 Con damage. That's... quite a bit, for not a lot of cash.

Hell, Wand of Restoration flat pops you to full, although it does cost 26k, due to material components.

I guess this is one of those things that's going to have to be mitigated by the type of DM you have.

Magic shop=ability burn
Rare magic items=ability damage

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-10, 10:03 PM
I guess this is one of those things that's going to have to be mitigated by the type of DM you have.

Magic shop=ability burn
Rare magic items=ability damage

Bind Naberous to heal stat damage every round...

Draz74
2009-02-11, 01:57 AM
Bind Naberous to heal stat damage every round...

I really doubt d20r is going to have Naberius straight out of the ToM. In fact, I know it won't, since Fax is using only OGL and homebrew. :smalltongue:

Fax Celestis
2009-02-11, 10:38 AM
No, but the point is made. However, 3 SP for 1 point of Con burn is...not a very good trade.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-11, 03:18 PM
No, but the point is made. However, 3 SP for 1 point of Con burn is...not a very good trade.

I dunno, if you're going to blast the BBEG, you might drain yourself down five or six points to get that last Oomph you need, knowing you've got like a week of downtime after this guy is taken out...

MammonAzrael
2009-02-11, 05:39 PM
You could just have magic have a reduced effect on this ability damage. Or maybe only half Sorceror level in damage can be healed magically. Or you could make it ability burn and increase the SP you get.

Knaight
2009-02-11, 06:27 PM
I dunno, if you're going to blast the BBEG, you might drain yourself down five or six points to get that last Oomph you need, knowing you've got like a week of downtime after this guy is taken out...

Doing this sort of stuff in fantasy, draining yourself for magic in a last ditch attempt to kill someone beyond your league is standard fare, and practically necessitated if magic is involved and the protagonists have it.

Triaxx
2009-02-11, 08:54 PM
Though not at all unheard of going the other way of course.

Knaight
2009-02-11, 09:37 PM
Naturally. Its just the protagonists tend to rely on it a little more frequently, as they have a habit of ending up the underdogs. Makes the story more interesting.

DrakebloodIV
2009-03-14, 10:55 PM
How about have it be +3 spell points per round for a duration of time equal to Cha or Con modifier (minimum on, of course)? I think Con would be good 'cause then a Sorceror would be well encouraged to have good Con and the amount of spending done would show through in the duration, so you could blow it all in one round or let it last over several.

Mando Knight
2009-03-14, 11:16 PM
I think Con would be good 'cause then a Sorceror would be well encouraged to have good Con

I do not share this sentiment. The tropes are Squishy Wizard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SquishyWizard) and Glass Cannon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GlassCannon), not Rock Solid Sorcerer.

Human Paragon 3
2009-03-15, 01:14 AM
Fax, have you or anyone else playtested the Sorcerer yet?

DrakebloodIV
2009-03-15, 01:51 AM
I do not share this sentiment. The tropes are Squishy Wizard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SquishyWizard) and Glass Cannon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GlassCannon), not Rock Solid Sorcerer.

Theyre still squishy. The difference is that you are thinking of runny egg squishy while I'm thinking of silly putty squishy. I perfer my sorc to live for a few seconds.

Latronis
2009-11-14, 12:50 AM
Maybe i'm missing something here.. but when needed how would you determine the spell level of the sorceror's spells?

oh and any chance of an ACF without a familiar? :smallbiggrin:

Violet Octopus
2009-11-14, 01:56 AM
I'm guessing that it's the save as the save DCs: "The save DC for a spell cast in this fashion is 10 + 1/2 the sorcreor's level + his Charisma modifier"

So everything cast by a 6th level sorceror is 3rd level?

Lunix Vandal
2009-11-14, 03:49 AM
... Which would mean that a 20th-level Sorceror is dropping tenth level spells. I'm rather inclined to think that Fax has future plans what make the "spell level" of spellwoven attacks irrelevant. (Starting, of course, with tying the save DC to caster level instead of spell level.)For comparison, consider a 20th-level Sorceror with Wis 30, Cha 30, and the Perceptive Spellweaving, Seed Focus (Ice), Seed Specialization (Ice), Seed Focus (Cone), and Seed Specialization (Cone) feats, assuming the "You can take these feats more than once, but each time they apply to a different seed you know" clause. He gets 43 SP for each use of the Spellweaving feature -- 20 from level, 10 each from his Wis and Cha modifiers, and 3 "just because." And he then casts what passes for an improved Cone of Cold:

Ice:
30 SP to start out with 15d6 cold damage
0 SP to add the Freezing Secret
1 SP to add the Slowing Secret
Cone:
3 SP to convert to 15' cone
9 SP to increase the radius to 60'
0 SP to add the Discriminating (Enemies Only) Secret
(SP costs include the reductions from Seed Focus and Seed Specialization.)

So we've effectively taken a 5th-level 3.5e spell and added 20 damage, made our allies immune to it, bumped the Reflex save up to 32-34ish (depending on how the DC bonuses from the feats stack), and a Will save at the save DC to avoid being slowed for 15 rounds. Sure, it might make Vaarsuvius gawk in envy, but it's hardly comparable to a metamagic-heavy 10th-level 3.5e spell. Admittedly, you can churn these out every single round ad infinitum, but still.

Latronis
2009-11-14, 04:39 AM
I was thinking more along the lines of things that interact with spell level rather than DCs. Though admittedly i can't actually think of anything at the moment >_>

Violet Octopus
2009-11-14, 04:58 AM
That's what I assumed you meant. Spells like Globe of Invulnerability (assuming it exists in d20r) would, if my guess is correct, block anything cast by a sorceror of up to 9th level, and nothing from a sorceror of 10th level.

As for 10th level spells, well, that's level 20. I kinda like the idea of a level 20 sorceror understanding the fundamentals of magic to the point where they can cast 10th level spells, even if such spells are less powerful than a more refined 9th level wizard spell. While not many mechanics distinguish between 9th and 10th spell level, it's a nice flavour-capstone.

term1nally s1ck
2009-11-29, 04:37 AM
Word is OP....It's PW: Kill, but you don't have the ways to avoiding it like you do for PW:Kill, and at 20 with 34 Cha (easy) you get a DC of 35 with the two feats and the secret. Fort DC 35 or die for any with HP < 250 ? Yes please.

Wolf is also a touch ridiculous. Ignore all the attack mods, and pump all 35 spell points into the duration, then add the secret. 36 minutes = 360 rounds, so you just gave an ally 360 temp HP for 36 minutes.

Make it a Sphere and you can have almost 200 temp HP for all allies within 25', which lasts for 20 minutes.....this is an I win button against a melee opponent...

Looking through the seeds and seeing what you can do at 35 SP.

Force: +17 Force Armor, DR 17/- for 17 hours. All-day buff.

Weapon: +8 weapon for 2 mins....meh. Specialise in it, and get a +11 weapon for a minute, or a +10 for 4 mins. Nice. The cheese is with sphere, as usual.

+5 to all weapons within 25' for 3 mins....or a +7 if specialised, Yes please.

Sphere (or cone) just seems to be a required seed if you wish to be good, tbh. I'd take it as my second seed, third at latest.

lesser_minion
2009-11-29, 05:21 AM
Conventional Temp. HP for D&D is 5 points/level (at best), so I think the wolf thing is a copypasta issue.

In general, I think a lot of these effects have pretty ridiculous durations though - considering that they are at-will, there is no good reason to increase the duration of anything once it reaches a couple of minutes, because you can repeat the effect with few consequences beyond the lost time.

I'd be tempted to change the durations in general so that they work along the following lines:

Instantaneous - The sorcerer calls some magic to him and does something with it. The magic vanishes as soon as it takes effect, but the consequences could persist Short - The sorcerer calls some magic to him and does something with it. The magic persists a while (no more than an encounter, and usually less), sustaining or repeating the effect, then vanishes. Used for spells that have some kind of magical aftereffect, such as clinging fire or acid. Extended - The sorcerer crafts a spell and continues to feed it with magic. There is some kind of penalty for extended spells - for example, the sorcerer might have to burn an action each round (probably a swift or a move action, so the spell basically works like a stance once it's shaped). It might also continue to count against the sorcerer's SP until it ends. Persistent - The sorcerer weaves magic directly into her own aura, creating a long-lasting effect. I'd suggest listing the option to do this as a separate class feature, allowing the sorcerer to spend a certain number of points on buff spells and change them whenever she wants.


That way, the header can simply include the keyword, and for a Short duration the actual length of time can be part of the description. It also resolves any questions about how different things interact with spells of different durations (including Dispelling)

Zovc
2009-12-09, 02:03 PM
Any chance there could be a healing seed? I know Vigor can give temporary hit points, but...

lesser_minion
2009-12-09, 02:08 PM
One big problem with a healing seed is that the instant at-will healing crops up, people start to get worried.

That's why the cleric now uses a Vancian system (had I got the chance, I'd have suggested just making healing - even magical healing - an application of the heal skill, so that DMs can conceivably impose limits on it if they need them).

It would be cool to have characters other than clerics using healing magic, but it needs at least some sort of limitation.

The current problem with the sorcerer is that a few people have found imbalances - I don't think new seeds would help much until those have been fixed.

Milskidasith
2009-12-09, 02:40 PM
One big problem with a healing seed is that the instant at-will healing crops up, people start to get worried.

That's why the cleric now uses a Vancian system.


I agree that it would be cool to have characters other than clerics using healing magic, but it needs at least some sort of limitation.

The class can already get at will 43 damage die improvement cone (vague wording), with an at will cone of +13 to your weapons and +45 armor and DR to your allies. What about at will healing is broken compared to that?

Surrealistik
2009-12-09, 02:45 PM
A little wordy I know. Hopefully you'll find it appealing:

Illusion
Shape: 5' Sphere or Target
Save: Will negates
Duration: Concentration + 3 rounds.
*2 SP Create a single visual image of your choice in the target area, or apply a glamer to a 5' Cube, creature or object in the target area that changes its appearance as you wish. If this is cast as a Target spell, you may only target a single creature or object within range with a glamer. You may move around any images and glamers as a Free Action as long as they remain within the area of the effect. You may change the appearance of any number of glamers and images as a Move Action, and/or when concentrating to maintain the spell.
*2 SP Add one of the following elements to any number of images and glamers created with this seed: Tactile, Olfactory, Thermal, or Auditory. You may change the qualities of these elements as desired for any number of glamers and images as a Move Action, or when concentrating to maintain the spell.
*1 SP Increase the spell's duration by 1 round or increase the spell's range by 5'.
*1 SP If cast as a Target spell, increase the number of targets by 1.
*X SP Purchase any ability from a Light, Sound, Cloud, Fear or Conceal spell seed. X is equal to the SP cost of that ability + 1. These purchased abilities are illusory. If unwilling targets adversely affected by the spell succeed at the Illusion seed save, the effects of that ability are automatically negated. You may also spend 2 SP a number of times up to the number of Seed Secrets you know to apply a Secret from the Spell Seed of any number of abilities purchased in this way to this spell.
Secrets
*Strong: +1 DC.
*Mobile: When you concentrate on the spell, you may make a Concentration check against a DC of 10 to move its area of effect, and that of all illusory elements (such as glamers and images) within, up to 5 feet, plus 5 feet per 2 points of the Concentration check's result above 10. You cannot move the area of effect or illusory elements beyond the range of the spell, nor can you move the illusory elements outside of the area of effect.
*Malleable: Concentrating on, and changing illusory elements of the spell requires only a Swift Action.
*Lingering: The spell lasts for up to 3 rounds + 1 round per caster level when not concentrated on.
*Obfuscating: Spells, spell-like or supernatural abilities or effects that would penetrate or reveal the illusions, images and glamers created with this Spell Seed must succeed on an opposed caster level check in order to do so in addition to any other preconditions.

lesser_minion
2009-12-09, 02:47 PM
The class can already get at will 43 damage die improvement cone (vague wording), with an at will cone of +13 to your weapons and +45 armor and DR to your allies. What about at will healing is broken compared to that?

I'm quite aware of the SorcZilla/GodSorc issues, but those can be fixed without destroying the foundation of the class. At-will healing can't.

However, if we assume that at-will healing is imbalanced (which a lot of people do), then there is no way to give this class a healing seed without either 'ruining' the game or destroying the foundation of the class.

In any event, do you really want to debug something at the same time as you expand it?

Milskidasith
2009-12-09, 02:57 PM
I'm quite aware of the SorcZilla/GodSorc issues, but those can be fixed without destroying the foundation of the class. At-will healing can't.

No, they really can't. At all. Everything about this is entirely broken. You could fix the seeds, but every single seed is either worthless, broken, or an easy way to add a save or die to your now "make 8 saves or die" spell.


However, if we assume that at-will healing is imbalanced (which a lot of people do), then there is no way to give this class a healing seed without either 'ruining' the game or destroying the foundation of the class.


If you make incorrect assumptions, you can make anything seem bad. I have the assumption that at will save or dies starting at level 1 is broken, and this gets those. Therefore, the class cannot be unbroken and is fundamentally wrong.


In any event, do you really want to debug something at the same time as you expand it?

When it's as clearly broken as this, I'd get rid of it first, then debug, then expand. No sense adding more cheese to this planet of gouda.

EDIT: As for the illusion seed... why make it require more points to add other seeds in? You can just add the seeds in to the spell normally.

Surrealistik
2009-12-09, 02:58 PM
EDIT: As for the illusion seed... why make it require more points to add other seeds in? You can just add the seeds in to the spell normally.

Because you may not have all the seeds the SP ability covers; it adds flexibility to the Illusion spell seed.

lesser_minion
2009-12-09, 03:13 PM
You can't actually force eight saves...

In any event, even if it does mean re-writing every single seed, this can be fixed without wrecking the foundation of the class. There is no way to add healing, keep the foundation of the class intact, and avoid complaints.

Also, first stopgap emergency fix: Invigorating grants 1 temporary hitpoint per time increment the spell lasts, instead of per round. Whatever unit of time the spell uses, one of those is one time increment.

Draz74
2009-12-09, 03:54 PM
There is no way to add healing, keep the foundation of the class intact, and avoid complaints.

I dunno about that. One easy fix is the same limitation as the Dragon Shaman's Vigor Aura (which nobody complains about): the Healing Seed can only heal up to 1/2 of full HP.

Tavar
2009-12-09, 03:57 PM
Or put a limit on the number of times they can benefit from it within a time period. Say, no more than twice an hour.

lesser_minion
2009-12-09, 03:58 PM
I dunno about that. One easy fix is the same limitation as the Dragon Shaman's Vigor Aura (which nobody complains about): the Healing Seed can only heal up to 1/2 of full HP.

Good point... I assumed healing as in "able to heal people as far as they want", but you're right - you don't have to include that assumption.

Tavar - That's the kind of thing I'm assuming Fax would rather avoid.

Zore
2009-12-09, 04:03 PM
I think just slapping some limits on buffs, perhaps by increasing cost so its prohibitive to go above whatever gets designated a reasonable threshold. Do it exponential, first is still one point second is 2 etc..

Possibly institute the reverse with direct damage so they cost the same at low levels and less as you go up so the first two levels are three points, next few are two points and then you get to one.

lesser_minion
2009-12-09, 04:23 PM
I'm not sure what Fax has planned, but I'm having a look at everything now to see what the problems are.

340 temp hitpoints is a typo. For now, it isn't worth worrying about. I've already posted an emergency fix for the secret that causes the problem, and the seed that caused the problem should probably be nerfed back to rounds anyway.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-09, 04:25 PM
I think the best way to de-break the sorc is to add 2 little nerfs.

1st: If you cast a spell with two different saves to make (from different seeds), if you make either save, then you are treated as though you passed all the saves.

2nd: If you pass a save against a certain seed, you get a +X to any further saves made against that seed. (I would say 2 or 3 for X)

EDIT: Also, on a focused blaster, an average of 50+ damage a turn, at will, is hardly anything to scoff at.

lesser_minion
2009-12-09, 04:38 PM
The simplest, and possibly most useful nerf, is to just have the sorcerer commit any SP he spends for the duration of the spell. That will help to prune some of the worse excesses Milskidasith pointed out (although it won't solve the entire problem).

I'd also be tempted to allow characters to just use their best save against a multiple-save spell (although I don't think there is quite so much of an issue there).

I can see the issue you have with a character spamming Word every round until the target fails to save as well, but I'm pretty sure that can be resolved without adding in a Law of Resistance.

Surrealistik
2009-12-09, 06:10 PM
Mind
Shape: Target
Save: Will negates
Duration: 1 round.
*2 SP Communicate telepathically with target; communication can be one or two way at your option.
*4 SP Target gains a +2 competence bonus to Will saves.
*6 SP Target is dazed, fascinated or confused.
*10 SP Target is charmed or stunned, or read target's surface thoughts.
*12 SP Target is paralyzed.
*20 SP Target is dominated.
*1 SP Duration is increased by 1 round, or increase range by 5'.
Secrets
*Strong: +1 DC.
*Subtle: Add the modifier of your primary casting attribute and half your caster level to the DC of any Sense Motive check to determine mental influence. An opposed caster level check must also be made to detect the spell.
*Penetrating: Spells, spell-like and supernatural abilities that normally would immunize a creature from this spell, or any of this spell's effects can be penetrated on a successful opposed caster level check.

Milskidasith
2009-12-09, 07:05 PM
You can't actually force eight saves...

Nauseating Acid, Nauseating Cruel, Stunning Electricity, Entangle, Terrifying Fear, Immobilizing Grease (Immobilize = helpless, actually, so this is a true SoD), Desensitizing Hex, Blinding Light, Sound (not stunning; daze >>>>> stun). That's nine, and I stopped there. Add in the fog cloud and they get to make those saves each round. Granted, you deal no damage, but 9 "save or be stuck in place" add up.


1st: If you cast a spell with two different saves to make (from different seeds), if you make either save, then you are treated as though you passed all the saves.

This make stacking spells entirely useless, because everything allows a save. Effectively, you just have each seed as it's own spell.


2nd: If you pass a save against a certain seed, you get a +X to any further saves made against that seed. (I would say 2 or 3 for X)


I'm not sure how this affects spells where you get 8 save or dies from different spells. Maybe you mean from the spell, sure, but it's still better to force 8 saves where a 1 fails than 1 save where a 5 or lower fails, for example.


EDIT: Also, on a focused blaster, an average of 50+ damage a turn, at will, is hardly anything to scoff at.

Yes, yes, it is. It's absolutely terrible. Even ignoring metamagic shenanigans you can deal much more than that to an area with blasting spells that force saves in core (wings of flurry. Go massive force damage!). Having to actually spend feats to get 18d6 per round on one target is just terrible.


The simplest, and possibly most useful nerf, is to just have the sorcerer commit any SP he spends for the duration of the spell. That will help to prune some of the worse excesses Milskidasith pointed out (although it won't solve the entire problem).

So they get to have one of their absurd buffs out rather than many. Well, I'd just run with the bite attacks; 43 damage dice improvements from the wolf bite attack is nothing to scoff at, because it's probably around 80d8 or so (there is no table for the damage die improvements.) It makes buffing worthless unless you break it, though.


I'd also be tempted to allow characters to just use their best save against a multiple-save spell (although I don't think there is quite so much of an issue there).

Seems reasonable, but again, even targeting their weak save is less effective than 8 "roll anything but a 1" saves. Just using their best save would still probably be a "roll anything but a 5 or lower", and you need to do that 8 times (with cloud, 8 times per round, and stuck moving within five feet).

Tavar
2009-12-09, 07:53 PM
I think the intention is that you can only make each type of saves once per spell. So if you have 3 effects that rely on fort and 2 on ref, the target makes 1 ref and one fort.

Milskidasith
2009-12-09, 07:58 PM
I think the intention is that you can only make each type of saves once per spell. So if you have 3 effects that rely on fort and 2 on ref, the target makes 1 ref and one fort.

That's not how it's written. Even still, you can force a three save or suck every round, or you can be an absolutely terrible blaster, or an ungodly buffbot. Not a pretty set of options.

Tavar
2009-12-09, 08:24 PM
Okay, the multisaves thing I can understand, but I think you're looking at it wrong. Energy damage is a Reflex save (except for Cold, but that's the exception to the rule), and as such only one save (max, two) would be needed for all of the energy damage. The majority of the effects presented here are Ref or Fort saves, with very little in the way of Will saves, so getting a triple-save spell is difficult (and not unprecedented, anyway: take a look at the great thunderclap spell, which is a Ref save or be prone, Fort save or be deaf, Will save or be stunned, and affects an area rather than the base ray that the sorceror's spells do).

Granted, I think this class could use some major editing: for example, the forceful secret to the force seed has been known as a problem for some time, and hasn't been corrected.

Milskidasith
2009-12-09, 08:27 PM
Honestly, I don't think the fact that a weak effect on a weak seed is as much of a problem as the damage die thing for wolf. It doesn't even describe what a damage die increase is (by the table? 2d8? I dunno!) and, you know, it gives some absurd damage increases at even 1d8 per point.

Tavar
2009-12-09, 08:30 PM
Yeah, not arguing about that.

Draz74
2009-12-09, 11:35 PM
Yeah, not arguing about that.

Indeed. But your intended point stands -- that Fax hasn't tried to fix the Sorceror's problems for many moons (i.e., ever since he moved on to his next sub-project after initially writing the Sorceror).

Fax Celestis
2009-12-10, 12:09 AM
Yeah. The main issue at hand is that the Sorceror uses a casting system that has never been used before, so it has to be balanced from the ground up. The balance point I initially had in mind was 3 SP for 1d6 elemental damage, but that may be a bit high for damage and low for nearly everything else. It is going to need a lot of work to make feasibly functional (that is, functional in that it isn't broken), but it will get there. If people want to take it upon themselves to price out what they feel to be reasonable, that would expedite the process.

Tavar
2009-12-10, 12:20 AM
I think the biggest issue is that you can pretty much use all the save or sucks from very low levels, but since they rely less on pumping points into them, you can stack alot of them on, while you can't really do this with the energy. Perhaps making the save dc boosting aspect of the save or X's be either much more expensive(+4?) Or have scaling values. That would help the energy ones as well. Perhaps have it cost N SP to raise energy damage by 1d6, where N is 8/(the total number of times you've increased energy damage over all seeds)*, or something. Really not sure on the numbers.

* this would make it so stacking energy types is actually doable.

Milskidasith
2009-12-10, 12:23 AM
That would make it 8 SP to cast a 1d6 spell, and 12 SP for a 2d6, Tavar. While it would scale well at the end, it still has save or dies at level 1, but not blasting is reserved for those who have an 18 in charisma at the start (not too hard) and don't want to do something more useful than 1d6.

Surrealistik
2009-12-10, 12:23 AM
Eh, no opinion on the new seeds?

As for the problems with the present system, stacking saves definitely seems to be one of the biggies. Allowing a maximum of one save of each type (Reflex, Will, Fort), while possibly increasing the SP cost of incapacitating effects and DC boosts seems like the best, most logical idea.

Tavar
2009-12-10, 12:27 AM
Hence the "not sure about the number".

And while the saves are big, there's also the problem that damage sucks, and buffs are godly(what was that bite attack you had, Milskidasith? Something like 20 size increases?)

Milskidasith
2009-12-10, 12:58 AM
Hence the "not sure about the number".

And while the saves are big, there's also the problem that damage sucks, and buffs are godly(what was that bite attack you had, Milskidasith? Something like 20 size increases?)

43 size increases in one round, or 46 if I take two rounds to do it. By D&D rules, the size increases would go 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6, 16d6, 24d6, 32d6, 48d6, 64d6, then +32, +32, +64, +64, +128, +128...

It's too insane for words.

Surrealistik
2009-12-10, 01:06 AM
I just read over the Wolf seed, and wow. Yeah. Broken as hell. Relatively easy to fix though with simple changes to the damage scaling.

Milskidasith
2009-12-10, 01:13 AM
And the temporary HP, don't forget that.

Surrealistik
2009-12-10, 01:41 AM
Absolutely. Fix those things and it should be fine.


Another spell seed for those aspiring necromancers and Xykons out there. Hopefully this isn't quite as bad as the Wolf one :P

Undeath
Shape: Target
Save: None.
Duration: 1 minute.
*X SP: Raise a target corpse as either a Skeleton or Zombie with HD equal to or less than the amount of SP invested. You can only control a total number of HD worth of undead equal to twice your caster level; if you create more undead than you can control, you must release enough HD worth of undead creatures to bring the total HD of controlled undead under this limit.
*6 SP: Upgrade the type of undead created to a Ghoul.
*9 SP: Upgrade the type of undead created to a Shadow.
*12 SP: Upgrade the type of undead created to a Wraith.
*2 SP: Increase the duration of the spell by 1 minute.
Secrets
*Empowering: All Undead created with this spell gain Fast Healing, and a bonus to their Turn Resistance equal to your Caster Level / 4 (minimum 1).
*Enhancing: Undead created by this spell gain a total bonus distributed as you choose between any of their ability scores equal to your Caster Level / 2.
*Enslaving: Undead created by this spell count as being 2 HD less (to a minimum of 1) towards the HD limit of undead you can control.
*Fortifying: Undead created by this spell gain energy resistance equal to your Caster Level divided as you choose between any number of energy types (Acid, Sonic, Fire, Cold, and Electricity).

lesser_minion
2009-12-10, 04:27 AM
And the temporary HP, don't forget that.

I posted an emergency fix for that (Invigorating should be 1 temporary hitpoint per time increment, not per round, because some of the spells it can be applied to have durations tracked in different units).

In reality, Wolf should have a duration in rounds anyway.

Also, change Seed Specialisation to use something along the lines of the following:

Seed Specialization
Prerequisites: Charisma 15, Spellweaving class feature, knowledge of at least two seeds, Seed Focus with the chosen seed

Benefit: When you take this feat, choose a seed you have taken the Seed Focus feat for.

For each spellweave point you spend on one of your chosen seeds, you gain an additional spellweave point, which must be spent on the same seed.

You cannot gain more than five bonus spellweave points per round in this way, whether these points come from one seed or multiple seeds that you have this feat for.

Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you choose this feat, choose another seed. Points spent on this seed now qualify for gaining bonus points - this does not allow you to surpass the limit on the number of SP you may gain from this feat, however.

A sorcerer may choose Seed Specialisation as one of his sorcerer bonus feats.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-10, 04:55 AM
An elegant way to re-balance things might be as follows:

* Incremental cost for damage output. For example, the first damage die costs 1-2, then add 1-2 (depending on seed) to the iterative cost every other iteration.

Thus, your basic 'seed' damge output for 1d6 (element) is 1. 2d6 is 2. Then 3d6 is 4 and 4d6 is 6. Something like that.

* Limit damage dice to a modifier based on your Caster Level, depending on the seed. So the Fire seed might be able to do as much as CL * 2, but the Acid seed might cap out at CL. Lightning seed might cap at CL*1.5. Just throwing random numbers out there.

* DC of spell saves needs to be based on how many points are sunk into a Seed, much like how Powers increase in DC when you Augment them. This will SERIOUSLY nerf the '1d6 + SoL from three different seeds' tactic, because the save DC's will seriously suck. Say 10 + Cha mod + (1/2 * #iterations)

* Seed secret *DOUBLES* the cost of the base seed SP. So if you spent 6 SP to get a 4d6 blast, it would cost another 6 SP to tack on a Save or Loose Secret. This, particularly combined with the previous suggestion, will eliminate the "make a save vs all three saves, missing one will destroy you" problem. Either it'll be too expensive, or it'll be rock-bottom DC's.

This, I think, will help mitigate some of the nonsense.

lesser_minion
2009-12-10, 05:16 AM
Well, the SoL secrets are actually a problem in their own right, I think.

There seems to be no real consensus on what a secret should be. It's one of the points I'm trying to work out how to address - even without the balance issues, I think there is an issue anyway.

The blasts might not be as bad as they seem (17d6 a round), although some number crunching may be necessary.

I'm going to take a few people's suggestions, tinker with them, duct-tape them together, add a few ideas of my own, revise the existing seeds to match, stick everything in a pot, and see where that goes. An idea of what a completed fix would look like would probably be helpful to everyone.

Milskidasith
2009-12-10, 07:52 AM
An elegant way to re-balance things might be as follows:

[QUOTE]* Incremental cost for damage output. For example, the first damage die costs 1-2, then add 1-2 (depending on seed) to the iterative cost every other iteration.

Thus, your basic 'seed' damge output for 1d6 (element) is 1. 2d6 is 2. Then 3d6 is 4 and 4d6 is 6. Something like that.

Did you ever read the problems with the class? The blasting is horribly weak... with your iteratives, it would cost more to blast at high levels, but it would allow level ones go fire off huge blasts relative to level. Just crunching the numbers, but 10d6 would be 30 points, and 12d6 would be 42, and 42 is on the cutting edge of what you can get optimizing for this (I can get 45 without anything but a lot of wealth).


* Limit damage dice to a modifier based on your Caster Level, depending on the seed. So the Fire seed might be able to do as much as CL * 2, but the Acid seed might cap out at CL. Lightning seed might cap at CL*1.5. Just throwing random numbers out there.

You can never actually get near the cap, because blasting with this sucks.


* DC of spell saves needs to be based on how many points are sunk into a Seed, much like how Powers increase in DC when you Augment them. This will SERIOUSLY nerf the '1d6 + SoL from three different seeds' tactic, because the save DC's will seriously suck. Say 10 + Cha mod + (1/2 * #iterations)

The problem is that a lot of these don't iterate, and even if they did, combining three half decent saves rather than one tough one still averages out better.


* Seed secret *DOUBLES* the cost of the base seed SP. So if you spent 6 SP to get a 4d6 blast, it would cost another 6 SP to tack on a Save or Loose Secret. This, particularly combined with the previous suggestion, will eliminate the "make a save vs all three saves, missing one will destroy you" problem. Either it'll be too expensive, or it'll be rock-bottom DC's.

Are you kidding? Save Secrets aren't even a problem (there are at least two SoL effects that aren't secret based), and most of them aren't worth their 1 SP cost, let alone doubling the cost. With your other suggestion, now you HAVE to tri-save or lose, because with the high cost, your DCs are going to be so low they make it on a natural one no matter how much you pump into it. Plus, that hurts blasting and everything else even more than this, because stuff like Bull Rushing spells and +1DC aren't worth doubling the cost.


This, I think, will help mitigate some of the nonsense.

Except the uberbuffs, and the fact that blasting sucks (you're suggestion makes it worse) and the fact that you've made seed secrets and mixing seeds unusable, essentially forcing you to just pick a small spells known list, yes, it's fixed. And by that I mean it's somehow more horrible than before.

As for Lesser Minion: 17d6 a round is if I invest multiple feats and over 320k in stat boosting items (two +5 tomes and two +6 items) and point buy an 18 in charisma and wisdom. If you don't optimize to do it, you're stuck with maybe 12 or 11d6 at level 20. Also, 17d6 at level 20, to a single target, is very bad.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-10, 08:05 AM
Any spell with multiple saves of the same type forces only one save to negate them all. I suggest this should be any spell with multiple saves, and it targets the opponent's best save. I also suggest the resistance rule, you get a bonus to further saves if you save once.

And don't compare an AT WILL ability to a spell that uses spell slots. Plus, that's very unoptimised. an optimised blaster will do 33d6+33 to a single target, 30d6+30 to a 15' cone, or 27d6+27 to a 15' sphere. At will. As a standard action. That's an average of 135 damage to a single target, 124.5 to the cone, and 113 to the sphere. Brutal, to say the least.

Milskidasith
2009-12-10, 12:49 PM
And don't compare an AT WILL ability to a spell that uses spell slots. Plus, that's very unoptimised. an optimised blaster will do 33d6+33 to a single target, 30d6+30 to a 15' cone, or 27d6+27 to a 15' sphere. At will. As a standard action. That's an average of 135 damage to a single target, 124.5 to the cone, and 113 to the sphere. Brutal, to say the least.

Ok, how are you getting 33d6+33? With specialization, you would need to spend 66 SP to do that. Sure, if you suddenly gain more resources than are possible by the rules, you can deal an almost OK amount of damage (135, I mean), but the best I can get, at level 20, is only 48 points, which brings it down to 24d6+24.

Here's how I got it:

20 starting charisma, 18 wisdom. +stats to them each time you level up, +6 item of each, +5 tome of each, giving you a final bonus of +13 charisma and +12 wisdom. That's 330k GP and three feats to do that. As for at will versus spell slots: Spell Slots are a nonissue for casters at level... what, four? Five? I've really never run out of spell slots, and lower level spell slots are just as good for blasting as others with the right spells. Even without bonus spells, you still have too many spells per day to ever run out.

As for forcing one save to negate, targeting their best save, and having DCs based on the amount invested into a seed: That forces you to use only one seed, because mixing and matching hurts you.

Surrealistik
2009-12-10, 12:52 PM
I like the idea of saves scaling with SP investment. Here's my take:

#1: Only one save per type (Will, Fort, Reflex) at the highest DC from each type needs to be made, regardless of the number of saves a spell would normally incur. Succeeding on any one save type negates, halves or partials as appropriate all effects associated with it. Order of saves made is highest DC to lowest, and all effects simultaneously apply.
Example: If I had 2 Will saves, one at 20 DC, another at 23 DC, 3 Reflex saves, 2 at 30 DC, another at 10 DC, and 4 Fortitude saves, one at 15 DC, and the others at 19 DC, my opponent would have to make a DC 30 Reflex save, a DC 23 Will save, and a DC 19 Fort save. Succeeding on the Will save negates domination and paralysis, succeeding on the Reflex save halves the fire and acid damage, and succeeding on the Fort save incurs only Fatigue rather than Exhaustion.

#2: DC = to 10 + Cha mod + 1 for every 4 SP spent on a Seed (rounded down).

L20 Sorc has, assuming he starts with 18 CHA, invests 4 into the ability, and gets a +6 CHA item, 32 SP to play with. Investing all of that grants +8 DC to a single Seed, so 27 DC, 10 + 9 CHA + 8 SP. Maybe 30 between specializations, focuses and secrets. If you factor in Residual Weaving, 31. Now that seems pretty strong at will against a save of 20 which is par for a CR 20 creature, but consider that this is a naked, base save, not factoring in buffs or items for the CR 20 creature. In the meanwhile, all other saves have a base DC of 19, possibly up to 22 with specializations, focuses and secrets. Contrasting this to 3.5, a base 18 CHA Sorc can have a DC up to 30 with both lesser and greater focuses.

At L1, a Sorc with 18 Cha can max out a base DC of 16, or 17 with a focus. 10 + 4 CHA + 2 SP investment. Not too bad. Contrasting this to 3.5, a base 18 CHA Sorc can have a DC up to 17 with both focuses.

At L10, a Sorc with 20 Cha, and a +4 item can max out a base DC of 10 + 7 CHA + 5 SP investment, so 22. Factor in a focus, specialization and secret and that's 25. Residual Spellweaving? 26 That's not too bad when we compare it to a Sorc wielding 5th level spells: 15 Base + 7 CHA + 2 Focuses = 24 DC, with Residual and Secrets making the difference.

Milskidasith
2009-12-10, 12:56 PM
I like the idea of saves scaling with SP investment. Here's my take:

#1: Only one save per type (Will, Fort, Reflex) at the highest DC needs to be made, regardless of the number of saves a spell would normally incur.

#2: DC = to 10 + Cha mod + 1 for every 4 SP spent on a Seed (rounded down).

L20 Sorc has, assuming he starts with 18 CHA, invests 4 into the ability, and gets a +6 CHA item, 32 SP to play with. Investing all of that grants +8 DC to a single Seed, so 27 DC, 10 + 9 CHA + 8 SP. Maybe 30 between specializations, focuses and secrets. If you factor in Residual Weaving, 31. Now that seems pretty strong at will against a save of 20 which is par for a CR 20 creature, but consider that this is a naked, base save, not factoring in buffs or items for the CR 20 creature. In the meanwhile, all other saves have a base DC of 19, possibly up to 22 with specializations, focuses and secrets. Contrasting this to 3.5, a base 18 CHA Sorc can have a DC up to 30 with both lesser and greater focuses.

At L1, a Sorc with 18 Cha can max out a base DC of 16, or 17 with a focus. 10 + 4 CHA + 2 SP investment. Not too bad. Contrasting this to 3.5, a base 18 CHA Sorc can have a DC up to 17 with both focuses.

At L10, a Sorc with 20 Cha, and a +4 item can max out a base DC of 10 + 7 CHA + 5 SP investment, so 22. Factor in a focus, specialization and secret and that's 25. Residual Spellweaving? 26 That's not too bad when we compare it to a Sorc wielding 5th level spells: 15 Base + 7 CHA + 2 Focuses = 24 DC, with Residual and Secrets making the difference.

It's not bad when you do that... except for the fact that this totally negates the point of "higher cost = stronger ability" thing. Getting a Power Word: Kill now has no negatives, because the DC scales adding that. Plus, aside from the Word spells, not much actually does nearly as much as a comparable sorcerer spell, so having comparable DCs is rather moot; having a 1 higher DC for a much weaker blasting spell that's single target and has no side effects isn't really worth it. Then again, the point might be to make things more balanced, but this is just either weak or broken.

Surrealistik
2009-12-10, 01:05 PM
It's not bad when you do that... except for the fact that this totally negates the point of "higher cost = stronger ability" thing. Getting a Power Word: Kill now has no negatives, because the DC scales adding that. Plus, aside from the Word spells, not much actually does nearly as much as a comparable sorcerer spell, so having comparable DCs is rather moot; having a 1 higher DC for a much weaker blasting spell that's single target and has no side effects isn't really worth it. Then again, the point might be to make things more balanced, but this is just either weak or broken.

Getting Power Word: Kill still has negatives because your HP threshold is still substantially lower. If there is an issue here it is really concerned with the specific SP pricing of the effect.

Further, compare the DCs before and after this fix, and you'll see this solution is much better.

Third, I agree that blasting is weak. Fixing that however, requires a change specific to the seeds, and directly improving the damage scaling.

I also updated my solution to clarify the effects of succeeding on different save types.

Milskidasith
2009-12-10, 01:07 PM
Getting Power Word: Kill still has negatives because your HP threshold is still substantially lower.

Your HP threshold is more than enough to kill anything level appropriate... 350 HP is pretty hard to get at level 20 unless you are a giant monster with massive constitution (even with a +10 constitution bonus you still won't have 350 HP max by level 20, even with d12 hit die). EDIT: And the tri-save thing is still a problem, even with the bonuses, considering the mixed thing was already in. Sure, you aren't able to get as much absurdity in there, but again, three saves that take a 10 to pass is better than one that takes a 16 or 17.

Also, your DCs can be significantly improved with perceptive spellweaving, which gives you a nice boost to your SP (+12 with a 160k investment in stat boosting items and a starting 18 in wis), which is a +3 to your DCs on full spells. Still not nearly fixed, and it would still be better to tear this down and build a better foundation than this seed system.

The familiar is still broken, by the way.

Surrealistik
2009-12-10, 01:07 PM
Your HP threshold is more than enough to kill anything level appropriate... 350 HP is pretty hard to get at level 20 unless you are a giant monster with massive constitution (even with a +10 constitution bonus you still won't have 350 HP max by level 20, even with d12 hit die).

The problem, like with blasting, is the specific pricing of the effects.

Milskidasith
2009-12-10, 01:10 PM
The problem, like with blasting, is the specific pricing of the effects.

The entire system is incredibly flawed. Fixing this would take longer than rewriting a new sorcerer that works.

Surrealistik
2009-12-10, 01:12 PM
I'm not so sure. I think we've got a solid solution to the DC, and stacking saves problem with my system; the rest is just pricing.

Fax Celestis
2009-12-10, 01:14 PM
Alright, so the spellweaving problem needs some repairs. I get that. I don't need to know what's broken about it any more than has been already--it's been made fairly obvious what is and isn't.

So, then, I'm considering changing the way spellweaving works. My idea as of now is to make spellweaving less of a "push button, receive bacon" and more of a "here is a stack of points based on X Y and Z factors. Casting a spell takes them out of the pool; when the spell ends, you get them back."

Couple this with a chop back the cost on damage per die, and up the cost on duration/non-damage effects, with a possible alteration to how seeds apply (I may go back to my one-secret-per-spell I had originally, but that felt so limiting), and what do we get? Assume for now that the actual quantity provided by the spellweaving class feature won't change, but the seeds themselves will drastically--I encourage you to wildly make up numbers for seeds that don't exist so that things will work. Also consider the idea of having a flat 10+CHA for Save DC, and requiring spending SP to increment the DC at the cost of getting less spell effects.

Again, like I said earlier: this is an untried system. It is going to be buggy. I would rather make and then fix then try to make it perfect from the get-go.

Surrealistik
2009-12-10, 01:17 PM
I personally love the modular flexibility of the system and think it has a lot of potential. It really just is a matter of getting the SP costs right, and possibly tacking on SP penalties for combining Seeds with different save types so as to supplement my system's attempts at diffusing save stack issues, and make the addition of another save (regardless of how low) come at some cost.

Milskidasith
2009-12-10, 01:55 PM
Honestly, I'd vastly prefer if this were a per day system, like Psionics, than the spellweaving feature as is or the spellweaving feature with your points locked up in persistent effects. With at-will buffs, you... well, you at will buff your allies. Removing all day buffs could help this, but the buffs would still be good. With your points locked up... you cast one buff and you can't do anything else, which is just terrible. Psionics is a better "the power within" system than this, and making it a bit more modular would be better than this mess.

Surrealistik
2009-12-10, 02:01 PM
I agree that typing up all SP invested in a buff or duration spell is probably not a good thing. Instead having it tie up a fractional amount, one fourth of the investment perhaps, might be worth looking into, especially when used in conjunction with my system since there's less SP to:

A: Both enhance a spell and consequently

B: Enhance the DC of that spell.

In the meanwhile, you are actually able to contribute to a fight; not as much as if you had your entire pool available of course, but enough. This way we create a balancing con to loading up allies with stupid amounts of powerful buffs without outright disabling the Sorcerer, or making buffing or duration spells pointless.

Milskidasith
2009-12-10, 02:03 PM
Why all these complicated DC solutions? Psionics does all of the "invest more points in an ability for instant action or long term buffs" way better than this. Give sorcerers SP per day (more than psions get PP, since they are built to cast all day), and let them cast modularly. That's better than this, for sure, and less complicated.

Surrealistik
2009-12-10, 02:05 PM
I dislike per day solutions for the simple fact that it by nature tends to allow for ridiculous nova-ing (which 3.5 psionics are notorious for) rather than consistent, sustained performance which helps all the classes keep pace with each other, and generally makes for smoother gameplay.

Surrealistik
2009-12-10, 04:17 PM
My proposal:

Each spell with a duration longer than instantaneous requires an upkeep of Spell Points every turn after it is cast equal to its total SP cost / 4 (rounding up) made as a Free Action, or a Move Action spent concentrating on it during your turn. If you do neither to upkeep the spell at the end of one of these turns, it immediately dissipates at the end of that turn.

New feats:

Efficient Spellkeep
Prerequisites: Spellweaving class feature, Intelligence 13+

Benefit: Your methods of spell upkeep are efficient and insightful. Decrease the upkeep cost of all spells by 1 SP.

Special: A sorcerer may choose this feat as one of his sorcerer bonus feats. This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.


Effortless Focus:
Prerequisites: Spellweaving class feature, Concentration 5+

Benefit: Concentrating on a spell for the purpose of satisfying its upkeep requires only a Swift Action.

Special: A sorcerer may choose this feat as one of his sorcerer bonus feats.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-10, 05:31 PM
33d6 is from Lingering, which a couple of the seeds have. 22d6, then half again next turn.

aaron_the_cow
2009-12-10, 06:36 PM
My proposal:
Efficient Spellkeep
Prerequisites: Spellweaving class feature, Intelligence 13+

Benefit: Your methods of spell upkeep are efficient and insightful. Spells with a duration cost 1 SP less to upkeep per turn.

Special: A sorcerer may choose this feat as one of his sorcerer bonus feats. This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.


Might make more sense to make this an investing feat...

Lappy9000
2009-12-10, 06:53 PM
Might make more sense to make this an investing feat...I would disagree, as Investing feats are one of the best things martial characters get. A sorcerer wouldn't be able to make much use of an investing feat anyway.

Surrealistik
2009-12-10, 06:54 PM
Might make more sense to make this an investing feat...

Alright, this is an investing version:

Efficient Spellkeep [Investing]
Prerequisites: Spellweaving class feature, Intelligence 13+

Benefit: Your methods of spell upkeep are efficient and insightful. Decrease the upkeep cost of all spells by 1 SP.

Investiture: For every 5 Prowess points invested in this feat, decrease the upkeep cost of all spells by an additional 1 SP.

Special: A sorcerer may choose this feat as one of his sorcerer bonus feats.

Lappy9000
2009-12-10, 06:57 PM
Alright, this is an investing version:

Efficient Spellkeep [Investing]
Prerequisites: Spellweaving class feature, Intelligence 13+

Benefit: Your methods of spell upkeep are efficient and insightful. Decrease the upkeep cost of all spells by 1 SP.

Investiture: For every ten points invested in this feat, decrease the upkeep cost of all spells by an additional 1 SP.

Special: A sorcerer may choose this feat as one of his sorcerer bonus feats.Case in point. A sorcerer wouldn't be able to make much use of that until level fourteen. :smallwink:

Surrealistik
2009-12-10, 06:59 PM
Case in point. A sorcerer wouldn't be able to make much use of that until level fourteen.

You get 2 Prowess points per level. You can realize material results from investiture as soon as you hit level 5, allowing you to upkeep spells with an upkeep cost of 2 SP for free, while reducing the upkeep costs of all other spells by 2; that's pretty significant.

Lappy9000
2009-12-10, 07:02 PM
You get 2 Prowess points per level. You can realize material results from investiture as soon as you hit level 5, allowing you to upkeep spells with an upkeep cost of 2 SP for free, while reducing the upkeep costs of all other spells by 2; that's pretty significant.There's a cap on how much prowess you can put into an investing feat equal to Base Attack Bonus +3. Unless a sorcerer starts multiclassing, they can't get much use from it, although I imagine a bladeweaver might.

Surrealistik
2009-12-10, 07:03 PM
There's a cap on investing feats equal to Base Attack Bonus +3. Unless a sorcerer starts multiclassing, they can't get much use from it, although I imagine a bladeweaver might.

Ah. Wasn't aware. Eh, I personally think it should be the greater of the character's caster level or BAB.

Well, I'll adjust the feat to reflect that fact.

Lappy9000
2009-12-10, 07:04 PM
Ah. Wasn't aware. Eh, I personally think it should be the greater of the character's caster level or BAB.

Well, I'll adjust the feat to reflect that fact.But wouldn't that ruin the point of Investing feats being for martial characters?

Surrealistik
2009-12-10, 07:07 PM
But wouldn't that ruin the point of Investing feats being for martial characters?

Wouldn't know, not having seen them. That said, I don't think making the Investing feats more caster friendly would necessarily detract from the luster of martial characters as long as it was the higher of CL and BAB, unless these feats are intentionally and specifically being used as a primary (or at least substantial) "equalizing" method to balance casters and martial classes against each other.

Lappy9000
2009-12-10, 07:10 PM
Wouldn't know, not having seen them. That said, I don't think making the Investing feats more caster friendly would necessarily detract from the luster of martial characters as long as it was the higher of CL and BAB, unless these feats are intentionally and specifically being used as a primary (or at least substantial) "equalizing" method to balance casters and martial classes against each other.I simply assumed that was the point, since martial characters get more, and casters get less. Figured it was to alleviate the weak feats posted in 3.5.

We should take this to the d20r thread if you want to debate further, don't wanna muck things up here too much.

Surrealistik
2009-12-10, 07:17 PM
I simply assumed that was the point, since martial characters get more, and casters get less. Figured it was to alleviate the weak feats posted in 3.5.

We should take this to the d20r thread if you want to debate further, don't wanna muck things up here too much.

Could be; on the other hand, it could have been initially intended as a martial specific mechanic that ended up spreading to the casters (not necessarily that the mechanic was specifically intended to be outright superior for martial classes as a balancing mechanism). No idea. Either way, I've got a version prepped that'll be meaningful.

Milskidasith
2009-12-11, 01:17 AM
I dislike per day solutions for the simple fact that it by nature tends to allow for ridiculous nova-ing (which 3.5 psionics are notorious for) rather than consistent, sustained performance which helps all the classes keep pace with each other, and generally makes for smoother gameplay.

What? No, Psionics can't nova too much to be useful in one encounter unless you play at extremely low levels or do Synchronicity+Schism shenanigans. Yes, you can nova, but using your max level powers is the same, or slightly more resource intensive than spells are. Besides, half the other casters in this are per day (Cartomancer, Medium), so why have at-will combining with that? It's either going to be weaker than those (probably not, since sorcerers are absurdly flexible and get at-will casting) for the ability to be sustained, and thus worse, or it's going to be as good or better than them (more likely), and the sorcerer's going to be the only choice because it can imitate the other classes features easily.

thegurullamen
2009-12-11, 02:42 AM
Besides, half the other casters in this are per day (Cartomancer, Medium), so why have at-will combining with that? It's either going to be weaker than those (probably not, since sorcerers are absurdly flexible and get at-will casting) for the ability to be sustained, and thus worse, or it's going to be as good or better than them (more likely), and the sorcerer's going to be the only choice because it can imitate the other classes features easily.

I think you're jumping to some swift conclusions. There's no way anyone can perfectly balance the classes against each other, but that's a whole different thing from saying it's impossible to put them all on the same tier. Fax's main goal is to make them that way. So, even if the Sorc ends up being the best or worst class, it'll be by as little as Fax can manage, (which will probably be very little. We've all got about a decade's worth of examinations about the tiered system's problems to work from.)

And for the record, I love the modular feel to the current incarnation of the Sorc, flawed though it may be right now. I'm sure there's a good fix to its problems without reverting to Vancian casting or other old hat bases. It'll just take some intensive work. And far more number crunching than non-math majors should be exposed to.

Hey Fax or one of the more active Sorc-thread-goers, any chance we could get an itemized list of the more/most problematic seeds and class features to look at?

Milskidasith
2009-12-11, 02:51 AM
I think you're jumping to some swift conclusions. There's no way anyone can perfectly balance the classes against each other, but that's a whole different thing from saying it's impossible to put them all on the same tier. Fax's main goal is to make them that way. So, even if the Sorc ends up being the best or worst class, it'll be by as little as Fax can manage, (which will probably be very little. We've all got about a decade's worth of examinations about the tiered system's problems to work from.)

And for the record, I love the modular feel to the current incarnation of the Sorc, flawed though it may be right now. I'm sure there's a good fix to its problems without reverting to Vancian casting or other old hat bases. It'll just take some intensive work. And far more number crunching than non-math majors should be exposed to.

Hey Fax or one of the more active Sorc-thread-goers, any chance we could get an itemized list of the more/most problematic seeds and class features to look at?

Most problematic seeds:

Force, the armor buff is broken. The wolf has the whole "temp HP thing" but also adds massive amounts of dice (hundreds and thousands, if maxed out) to your bite attack, assuming the die increases are size increases. The cone seed makes it easy to buff all of your allies, which is good, but giving them all +10 weapons is a bit much (giving a single +11 weapon is probably too much, and with specialization, you can get higher.) The damage seeds are all terribly underpowered, and acid is a d4 for no apparent reason.

Most problematic class features: The familiar is broken. With your ability scores and practical spellweaving given as a feat to your 13 HD familiar, you've essentially got a non-optimized lower level sorcerer as your cohort, although the fact it doesn't get extra SP based on it's charisma is better.

lesser_minion
2009-12-11, 05:55 AM
My proposal:

Each spell with a duration longer than instantaneous requires an upkeep of Spell Points every turn after it is cast equal to its total SP cost / 4 (rounding up) made as a Free Action, or a Move Action spent concentrating on it during your turn. If you do neither to upkeep the spell at the end of one of these turns, it immediately dissipates at the end of that turn.

New feats:

Efficient Spellkeep
Prerequisites: Spellweaving class feature, Intelligence 13+

Benefit: Your methods of spell upkeep are efficient and insightful. Decrease the upkeep cost of all spells by 1 SP.

Special: A sorcerer may choose this feat as one of his sorcerer bonus feats. This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.


Effortless Focus:
Prerequisites: Spellweaving class feature, Concentration 5+

Benefit: Concentrating on a spell for the purpose of satisfying its upkeep requires only a Swift Action.

Special: A sorcerer may choose this feat as one of his sorcerer bonus feats.

That works, although I'm still a little more keen on just giving the sorceror a larger pool of SP, limiting how much they can spend on a particular spell, and requiring the SP to be committed.

Surrealistik
2009-12-11, 11:37 AM
That works, although I'm still a little more keen on just giving the sorceror a larger pool of SP, limiting how much they can spend on a particular spell, and requiring the SP to be committed.

I'm not sure why this would be a necessary change. The only possibly meaningful difference would be limitations on the amount spent per spell while the rest is just a rescale of the existing system with my revisions. Why complicate things even more?

Milskidasith
2009-12-11, 12:45 PM
All of the ideas for how SP is invested would be much better in an PP like system with modular abilities. Keep the modularity (a good concept, if balanced) and remove the issue where buffs are free, take up all your power for the day, or are full of complicated math.

Surrealistik
2009-12-11, 12:48 PM
What's complicated about upkeep? It's simple division and rounding.

Milskidasith
2009-12-11, 12:53 PM
It's not all that complicated but it is more complicated than necessary and doesn't show off the pros of the at will SP system. If it requires this much fixing to be balanced, and I have to remember to keep track of how much SP I'm spending on the multiple buffs I have out (does a cone'd buff have upkeep for everybdoy who's hit, or just one upkeep? What if one person dismisses the buff; same cost, proportional decrease, or what?), then the system needs to be inspected to see if it's even worth keeping, and I am of the opinion that, even if not a bad concept, psionics is better and simpler than this.

Fax Celestis
2009-12-11, 12:57 PM
Psionics may be simpler, but I do not want to use a per-diem system for the sorceror (or any spellweaver).

Surrealistik
2009-12-11, 01:03 PM
It's not all that complicated but it is more complicated than necessary and doesn't show off the pros of the at will SP system. If it requires this much fixing to be balanced, and I have to remember to keep track of how much SP I'm spending on the multiple buffs I have out (does a cone'd buff have upkeep for everybdoy who's hit, or just one upkeep? What if one person dismisses the buff; same cost, proportional decrease, or what?), then the system needs to be inspected to see if it's even worth keeping, and I am of the opinion that, even if not a bad concept, psionics is better and simpler than this.

Keeping track of your invested SP is easy. You have only so much to spend, coupled with the fact that action is turn based, and you are only casting so many spells per turn. Two maximum maybe?

I would think the upkeep would only apply once in the event of an AoE spell, so that's simple too.

The only remotely complicated thing would be proportional SP reclamation, but even that itself is simple division and rounding. The numbers in just about every case are so small, you can easily do them all in your head.

I personally do not want to relapse to the old hat per day resources. Pacing and balance tends to be much better and more consistent with weaker at wills, and there's minimal danger of moving ahead or behind the rest of your party members this way, particularly the martials. It's worth the effort of balancing.

Lappy9000
2009-12-11, 01:07 PM
For the record, I like the idea of the Spellweaving system. 'Tis quite snazzy.

Milskidasith
2009-12-11, 01:09 PM
Keeping track of your invested SP is easy. You have only so much to spend, coupled with the fact that action is turn based, and you are only casting so many spells per turn. Two maximum maybe?

I would think the upkeep would only apply once in the event of an AoE spell, so that's simple too.

The only remotely complicated thing would be proportional SP reclamation, but even that itself is simple division and rounding. The numbers in just about every case are so small, you can easily do them all in your head.

I personally do not want to relapse to the old hat per day resources. Pacing and balance tends to be much better and more consistent with weaker at wills, and there's minimal danger of moving ahead or behind the rest of your party members this way, particularly the martials. It's worth the effort of balancing.

First, you're casting twice per turn. Your familiar is basically a sorcerer of a few levels lower than you, so there's no reason not to abuse the action economy from level one. Secondly, when I say complicated I mean that it is more complicated than anything else, or than strictly necessary. Yes, dividing your 48 SP buff by 4 gets you a 12 upkeep cost, and it's not hard if you have a party of six to lower the upkeep by 2 if you dismiss the buff on somebody, but that's still more complicated than just subtracting it from your PP per day.

Plus, your conclusion doesn't follow your proof. At anything besides absurdly low levels, you can easily keep up a constant power output as a psion or other per day class. At low levels, you can fix this by giving them at will unaugmented powers, or cantrips, and boom, you have constant output from 1 to 20. Even with my most abusive tricks with schism and synchronicity I still can't burn all the PP on a psion in an entire combat, unless you were to abuse the Elan race to negate massive damage, which is an exception, not the rule.

Surrealistik
2009-12-11, 01:16 PM
First, you're casting twice per turn. Your familiar is basically a sorcerer of a few levels lower than you, so there's no reason not to abuse the action economy from level one. Secondly, when I say complicated I mean that it is more complicated than anything else, or than strictly necessary. Yes, dividing your 48 SP buff by 4 gets you a 12 upkeep cost, and it's not hard if you have a party of six to lower the upkeep by 2 if you dismiss the buff on somebody, but that's still more complicated than just subtracting it from your PP per day.

More complicated perhaps (and immaterially so), but better.



Plus, your conclusion doesn't follow your proof. At anything besides absurdly low levels, you can easily keep up a constant power output as a psion or other per day class. At low levels, you can fix this by giving them at will unaugmented powers, or cantrips, and boom, you have constant output from 1 to 20. Even with my most abusive tricks with schism and synchronicity I still can't burn all the PP on a psion in an entire combat, unless you were to abuse the Elan race to negate massive damage, which is an exception, not the rule.

Do you really want to argue that the Psions are anywhere near Fighter tier? It's not anywhere close primarily because of the set up of the class mechanics. As with casters, Psions are allowed to employ exceptionally powerful abilities and powers at the trade off of frequency. Per day abilities are basically asking for excruciating balance and/or pacing difficulties beyond the low levels, beyond anything so far posited here which chiefly comes down to repricing.

lesser_minion
2009-12-11, 01:59 PM
All of the ideas for how SP is invested would be much better in an PP like system with modular abilities. Keep the modularity (a good concept, if balanced) and remove the issue where buffs are free, take up all your power for the day, or are full of complicated math.

OK, so you can have 60 points of active effects at any one time, and you can only spend 15 points on any given effects.

I don't see how that is more complicated than psionics in any way. You deal in much smaller numbers, and there are meaningful and clear limits on how much you can achieve at any given time. It's far more balanced than basing this on psionics would be.

I agree that there are way too many different systems for casting in d20r, but that was the case in 3e as well, and I think I can understand why Fax is using a different system for each caster, even if I don't think it's a good idea.

Daily limits on characters should exist, but they should also be consistent for all characters (4e actually handled this requirement surprisingly well, although it could have been done a lot better).

Milskidasith
2009-12-11, 02:47 PM
More complicated perhaps (and immaterially so), but better.

Adding complexity is inherently worse game design, and I don't see how the complexity of the SP system adds anything to improve this class over SP.





Do you really want to argue that the Psions are anywhere near Fighter tier?

No, I don't. Do you want to stop strawmanning my position?



It's not anywhere close primarily because of the set up of the class mechanics. As with casters, Psions are allowed to employ exceptionally powerful abilities and powers at the trade off of frequency.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Casters and Psions will never run out of PP or spell slots at anything above maybe seventh level unless they are getting hit by absurd amounts of foes. Furthermore, fighters have a per-day resource they lose even faster than casters. It's HP.

The reason casters are better than fighters is because fighters are inflexible. They can do one thing (HP damage), and do it very well in one way (ubercharging, chain-tripping, King of Smack, etc.) but they have no flexibility, thusly, T5. T2 classes like the Psion can manage to do just as much, if not more, with their specialty and still be very competent in everything else, while T1 classes like the Wizard can just do anything. The reason why wizards and psions are better is not because they nova, or because they have a strong, limited resource, but because they have a nearly infinitely varied, incredibly strong, and essentially unlimited resource. You don't run out of spell slots, ever.


Per day abilities are basically asking for excruciating balance and/or pacing difficulties beyond the low levels, beyond anything so far posited here which chiefly comes down to repricing.


What? Low levels are the only part where your argument about novaing makes sense, because those are the only times you can't provide a smooth, maxed out damage output with a caster without running out of spells. At high levels, you have essentially unlimited PP as a psion (you can easily get around 500 PP IIRC, which is 25 fully augmented powers, which you really should never need in a single day).


OK, so you can have 60 points of active effects at any one time, and you can only spend 15 points on any given effects.

That's not how it works... the solution is that you have your SP you can spend any way you want, but if you buy an active effect, 1/4th it's cost (then subtracted by an investing feat) is locked up. So if you cast a 40 SP buff, you now only have 30 SP to do other things, unless you have a feat, or if you cancel it on one person and have a portion of the buff returned.


I don't see how that is more complicated than psionics in any way. You deal in much smaller numbers, and there are meaningful and clear limits on how much you can achieve at any given time. It's far more balanced than basing this on psionics would be.


You. Have. Got. To. Be. Joking. How is doing division and altering your max cap of SP every time you cast a buff or an ally gets dispelled less complicated than "subtract 10 PP from your daily PP when you use a 10 PP power?" How are the limits on that clearer than "You cannot spend more PP on one power than your manifester level?"

It literally took ONE sentence to explain the cost of psionics and one sentence to explain the limits on how much you can spend, and you are arguing that somehow the SP system is less complicated? Just the buff limits you have proposed are more complicated than the entirety of psionics. Yes, it isn't complicated, but any additional complexity for no benefit is bad design, plus the number tweaking on the ratio of SP spent on buffs is going to require massive amounts of work to balance that wasn't there before.


I agree that there are way too many different systems for casting in d20r, but that was the case in 3e as well, and I think I can understand why Fax is using a different system for each caster, even if I don't think it's a good idea.


There was vancian casting, and psionics. Psionics was the only good system. I don't recall any other types of casting in 3e, and I don't see how Fax expects any kind of balance when there are five+ classes that run on entirely different mechanics.


Daily limits on characters should exist, but they should also be consistent for all characters (4e actually handled this requirement surprisingly well, although it could have been done a lot better).



Psionics is consistent. This isn't.

Surrealistik
2009-12-11, 03:29 PM
Adding complexity is inherently worse game design, and I don't see how the complexity of the SP system adds anything to improve this class over SP.

Per day resources are exceptionally hard to balance; better a marginally more complex at-will system than an imbalanced per day system. In every instance in 3.5, WotC's attempts at moderating this kind of resource were pretty much utter failures.


No, I don't. Do you want to stop strawmanning my position?

What am I straw-manning? If you make this a per-day class, it will almost surely be infinitely more difficult to balance than an at-will version. I cite the Psion's relationship with the Fighter as an example of how it is predisposed to failure.


Sorry, but you are wrong. Casters and Psions will never run out of PP or spell slots at anything above maybe seventh level unless they are getting hit by absurd amounts of foes. Furthermore, fighters have a per-day resource they lose even faster than casters. It's HP.

The reason casters are better than fighters is because fighters are inflexible. They can do one thing (HP damage), and do it very well in one way (ubercharging, chain-tripping, King of Smack, etc.) but they have no flexibility, thusly, T5. T2 classes like the Psion can manage to do just as much, if not more, with their specialty and still be very competent in everything else, while T1 classes like the Wizard can just do anything. The reason why wizards and psions are better is not because they nova, or because they have a strong, limited resource, but because they have a nearly infinitely varied, incredibly strong, and essentially unlimited resource. You don't run out of spell slots, ever.

Exactly. That's precisely part of the problem! The very mechanic that was supposed to keep these classes in place turned out to be an utter, immaterial failure.

Also my definition of the word power is flexible in the sense that it refers to overall prowess. Power takes on many forms. Foremost among them is the ungodly kinds of reality warping battlefield control that Psions and casters have access to, the flexibility you mention, and not only the option of that control, and that flexibility, but their scope and intensity. The nature and intensity of that power is also directly attributable to their per day limits, which were obviously intended to balance it, and failed utterly, as demonstrated both by the fact that, yes on average running out of spell slots/PP to an extent that matters is often negligible (unless your DM is out to make a point/punish), and by what they're simply capable of, even assuming those limits actually became material.

So case in point; why should the entire class be overhauled to be orientated about a per day system when the existing one is all but finished save for some tweaking, especially when your proposed alternative is going to be infinitely more difficult to balance?


What? Low levels are the only part where your argument about novaing makes sense, because those are the only times you can't provide a smooth, maxed out damage output with a caster without running out of spells. At high levels, you have essentially unlimited PP as a psion (you can easily get around 500 PP IIRC, which is 25 fully augmented powers, which you really should never need in a single day).

Pacing in terms of power. Pacing in terms of what the class is essentially capable of. In low levels, casters and psions are relatively balanced with each other under 3.5. As everyone knows, this breaks down with a vengeance from mid levels onwards.

lesser_minion
2009-12-11, 03:32 PM
Adding complexity is inherently worse game design, and I don't see how the complexity of the SP system adds anything to improve this class over SP.

Not true, actually. Any rule added has to be useful, but complexity isn't necessarily a problem. Otherwise we'd all be playing FF and Fax wouldn't be doing this at all.


Sorry, but you are wrong. Casters and Psions will never run out of PP or spell slots at anything above maybe seventh level unless they are getting hit by absurd amounts of foes. Furthermore, fighters have a per-day resource they lose even faster than casters. It's HP.

Which, interestingly enough, is part of the reason why per-day mechanics in general are a problem.


The reason casters are better than fighters is because fighters are inflexible. They can do one thing (HP damage), and do it very well in one way (ubercharging, chain-tripping, King of Smack, etc.) but they have no flexibility, thusly, T5. T2 classes like the Psion can manage to do just as much, if not more, with their specialty and still be very competent in everything else, while T1 classes like the Wizard can just do anything. The reason why wizards and psions are better is not because they nova, or because they have a strong, limited resource, but because they have a nearly infinitely varied, incredibly strong, and essentially unlimited resource. You don't run out of spell slots, ever.

It's a little bit more complicated than that. Proving that Surrealistik's conclusion doesn't reflect the old system doesn't actually prove it wrong - it is definitely a valid reason to think twice about including a per-day mechanic. And if you don't run out of spell slots, then you're just forcing people to do a load of extra bookkeeping to no benefit.

Per-day limits in 3.x don't balance things anyway - firstly, because they are set so high that you have vastly more available power than you actually need, and secondly, because some of your options can be used to make the consequences of nova'ing completely irrelevant.

Oh, and it's also a munchkin's weakness (one that never comes into play with some DMs because it would utterly screw over your character if it did - similar to Item Familiar, although for different reasons).


That's not how it works... the solution is that you have your SP you can spend any way you want, but if you buy an active effect, 1/4th it's cost (then subtracted by an investing feat) is locked up. So if you cast a 40 SP buff, you now only have 30 SP to do other things, unless you have a feat, or if you cancel it on one person and have a portion of the buff returned.


That's how Surrealistik's idea works. See the following quote from Fax:


So, then, I'm considering changing the way spellweaving works. My idea as of now is to make spellweaving less of a "push button, receive bacon" and more of a "here is a stack of points based on X Y and Z factors. Casting a spell takes them out of the pool; when the spell ends, you get them back."

That seems more like what I mentioned to me. Admittedly, Fax hasn't commented on Surrealistik's solution yet.


You. Have. Got. To. Be. Joking. How is doing division and altering your max cap of SP every time you cast a buff or an ally gets dispelled less complicated than "subtract 10 PP from your daily PP when you use a 10 PP power?" How are the limits on that clearer than "You cannot spend more PP on one power than your manifester level?"

I'm not suggesting the use of division, because I agree that it doesn't add anything to the game.


It literally took ONE sentence to explain the cost of psionics and one sentence to explain the limits on how much you can spend, and you are arguing that somehow the SP system is less complicated? Just the buff limits you have proposed are more complicated than the entirety of psionics. Yes, it isn't complicated, but any additional complexity for no benefit is bad design, plus the number tweaking on the ratio of SP spent on buffs is going to require massive amounts of work to balance that wasn't there before.

Erm... no. My solution to buffs was "you can have up to 60 points worth of spells active at any one time, and you may not spend more than 15 on a given effect".

It might be a little easier to track psionics, but it is also a lot easier to balance.


There was vancian casting, and psionics. Psionics was the only good system. I don't recall any other types of casting in 3e, and I don't see how Fax expects any kind of balance when there are five+ classes that run on entirely different mechanics.

Wrong. As far as a per-day system can be good at all, Prepared + Slots would have been OK.

I think Fax is going in the wrong direction with things like the Cleric and Wizard - slots are the single worst mechanic in the history of game design ever. Preparation (the essence of Vancian) isn't an issue, however.


Psionics is consistent. This isn't.

That's not what I meant. As a whole, the game system should have consistent limitations on how long characters can keep going, rather than having 'juice' an issue for one character and not another.

Milskidasith
2009-12-11, 06:56 PM
Per day resources are exceptionally hard to balance; better a marginally more complex at-will system than an imbalanced per day system. In every instance in 3.5, WotC's attempts at moderating this kind of resource were pretty much utter failures.

WotC also has failed at balancing 4e, even with at-wills (Orbizard still exists) and is consistently bad at printing stuff that is OMGWTF overpowered in M:TG. I think the problem is WotC, not the per-day mechanic.


What am I straw-manning? If you make this a per-day class, it will almost surely be infinitely more difficult to balance than an at-will version. I cite the Psion's relationship with the Fighter as an example of how it is predisposed to failure.

Your conclusion doesn't follow your proof. Your proof is that psions are better than fighters. Your conclusion is that it's because Psions have a per-day mechanic. There's no connect between the two. Psions are better because they have versatility, not because they have a per-day limit.




Exactly. That's precisely part of the problem! The very mechanic that was supposed to keep these classes in place turned out to be an utter, immaterial failure.

It wouldn't matter if they were limited, the problem was that spells were too powerful, not that there were too many spell slots. I was merely pointing out that psionics doesn't have a problem with nova-ing away all your resources instantaneously, like you said it had a reputation for doing.


Also my definition of the word power is flexible in the sense that it refers to overall prowess. Power takes on many forms. Foremost among them is the ungodly kinds of reality warping battlefield control that Psions and casters have access to, the flexibility you mention, and not only the option of that control, and that flexibility, but their scope and intensity.

Psions have more control over their power and more flexibility than this sorcerer, if only because this sorcerer has very few good options.


The nature and intensity of that power is also directly attributable to their per day limits, which were obviously intended to balance it, and failed utterly, as demonstrated both by the fact that, yes on average running out of spell slots/PP to an extent that matters is often negligible (unless your DM is out to make a point/punish), and by what they're simply capable of, even assuming those limits actually became material.

That doesn't prove that per-day limits are a bad thing, at all. Per-day limits are a great thing when it comes to limiting the massive number of all day buffs you could have up otherwise, but still allow you to fight without limiting your power (unless you do some serious action economy cheese). It also doesn't prove why having at-will powers, or the weird "at-will, but some of your power is locked up if you bother to do anything but blast without causing status conditions" is a better system.


So case in point; why should the entire class be overhauled to be orientated about a per day system when the existing one is all but finished save for some tweaking, especially when your proposed alternative is going to be infinitely more difficult to balance?

Tweaking? The balance on this is nonexistent. The familiar needs to be overhauled and every single seed listed is either used for utility, vastly too weak or vastly too powerful. By your logic, the 3.5e wizard is balanced, and just needs some "tweaking" of his spell list.



Pacing in terms of power. Pacing in terms of what the class is essentially capable of. In low levels, casters and psions are relatively balanced with each other under 3.5. As everyone knows, this breaks down with a vengeance from mid levels onwards.

Uhh... casters and psions are balanced at higher levels. If you mean melee and casters, then yeah, it's a problem, but it's a problem with melee having no flexibility and casters having win button spells, not with the per-day limits. Remember, Fighters have HP, which is a far more easily expended per-day resource than casters spell slots (or this sorcerers HP).


Not true, actually. Any rule added has to be useful, but complexity isn't necessarily a problem. Otherwise we'd all be playing FF and Fax wouldn't be doing this at all.

If it can be done better with less complexity, then the complexity is unneeded. I hold that having PP solves the buff problem nicely while still allowing you to preform consistently, instead of limiting you with the whole "SP locked up" formula.


Which, interestingly enough, is part of the reason why per-day mechanics in general are a problem.

You and Surrealistik are both holding that being able to preform all day is a good thing, but the uberbuffing on this needs to be adjusted. PP solves both of those. Unless you lay on the cheese when buffing, you don't run out, but buffing all your allies will affect your ability later on. It's simple and elegant.


Per-day limits in 3.x don't balance things anyway - firstly, because they are set so high that you have vastly more available power than you actually need, and secondly, because some of your options can be used to make the consequences of nova'ing completely irrelevant.

The point is that per-day limits do what you want: constant power output, while solving the problem of this class: buffing is OMGWTF good or entirely useless, depending on how you work the SP cost. That's why I suggested PP. To give you an idea with PP, you can manifest about 12 or 13 rounds worth of powers, fully spent, if you have schism up before running dry with a level 20 psion with a ML of 25 from items, overchannel, etc. That is a pretty good amount, and you can moderate it if you want to last longer. But if you were to go and spend your time casting the OMGWTFBBQ AC buff on all your allies, you'd only have 8 or so rounds worth of fighting in you, which makes buffing have actual consequences.


So, then, I'm considering changing the way spellweaving works. My idea as of now is to make spellweaving less of a "push button, receive bacon" and more of a "here is a stack of points based on X Y and Z factors. Casting a spell takes them out of the pool; when the spell ends, you get them back."


That seems more like what I mentioned to me. Admittedly, Fax hasn't commented on Surrealistik's solution yet.

That solution makes buffing and area control spells utterly useless in their entirety, and it should be obvious why. With that in play, your only option is to cast tri-save spells, but you can't do that because your SP will still be locked up while your enemies are dazed/blinded/frightened, so you're stuck blasting with the +1 DC secret or missing every other turn.


I think Fax is going in the wrong direction with things like the Cleric and Wizard - slots are the single worst mechanic in the history of game design ever. Preparation (the essence of Vancian) isn't an issue, however.

Vancian casting is a terrible mechanic that's a relic of older editions. Psionics is better in every way; it's more flexible, makes lower level powers useful at later levels, and is easier to track.


That's not what I meant. As a whole, the game system should have consistent limitations on how long characters can keep going, rather than having 'juice' an issue for one character and not another.

Then why support d20r? There are about six different types of limitations on casters and other classes, it's less consistent than 3.5e, hilariously unbalanced as that was. D20r needs to pick a casting system and stick with it; it's hard enough to make this balanced, let alone balanced against PP, vancian casting, at will spells from mantles that are set in stone, and skill based card casting with rerolls and passive buffs for having cards.

lesser_minion
2009-12-11, 07:34 PM
This doesn't prove that per-day limits are a bad thing, at all. Per-day limits are a great thing when it comes to limiting the massive number of all day buffs you could have up otherwise, but still allow you to fight without limiting your power (unless you do some serious action economy cheese). It also doesn't prove why having at-will powers, or the weird "at-will, but some of your power is locked up if you bother to do anything but blast without causing status conditions" is a better system.

Actually, the game breaks in half with a few layered buffs that are limited solely by how many you can cast. Limiting how much you can have out at a time is a lot better balanced.


Tweaking? The balance on this is nonexistent. The familiar needs to be overhauled and every single seed listed is either used for utility, vastly too weak or vastly too powerful. By your logic, the 3.5e wizard is balanced, and just needs some "tweaking" of his spell list.

It's going to see a comprehensive review, but it's a new mechanic. You seem to be scarily fast to write off the concept just because you think there are too many subsystems.


If it can be done better with less complexity, then the complexity is unneeded. I hold that having PP solves the buff problem nicely while still allowing you to preform consistently, instead of limiting you with the whole "SP locked up" formula.

I think your solution is neither better nor less complex than what I suggested. You have to track spell durations using your system, which completely negates the advantage of not having to add points whenever you dismiss a spell. You also have no meaningful limit on how much your character can do, beyond action economy.

Please explain why we can't just cut out the middleman here.


You and Surrealistik are both holding that being able to preform all day is a good thing, but the uberbuffing on this needs to be adjusted. PP solves both of those. Unless you lay on the cheese when buffing, you don't run out, but buffing all your allies will affect your ability later on. It's simple and elegant.

No, it isn't. You just can't layer as many fire-and-forget spells. And changing what a class can achieve over the course of a day is not a balancing factor, as has been repeatedly proven throughout 3e.


The point is that per-day limits do what you want: constant power output, while solving the problem of this class: buffing is OMGWTF good or entirely useless, depending on how you work the SP cost. That's why I suggested PP. To give you an idea with PP, you can manifest about 12 or 13 rounds worth of powers, fully spent, if you have schism up before running dry with a level 20 psion with a ML of 25 from items, overchannel, etc. That is a pretty good amount, and you can moderate it if you want to last longer. But if you were to go and spend your time casting the OMGWTFBBQ AC buff on all your allies, you'd only have 8 or so rounds worth of fighting in you, which makes buffing have actual consequences.

They don't. If all of the abilities of a class are based on a per-day limit, then you have fake balance. Popping six or seven layered buffs is still enough to break the game, unless the seeds are fixed.


That solution makes buffing and area control spells utterly useless in their entirety, and it should be obvious why. With that in play, your only option is to cast tri-save spells, but you can't do that because your SP will still be locked up while your enemies are dazed/blinded/frightened, so you're stuck blasting with the +1 DC secret or missing every other turn.

What? No, this doesn't follow at all. You're free to throw out a buff or an area control effect, and you won't even have to track its duration.

I don't see how this even remotely removes SoLs, CC, or buffs as options.


Vancian casting is a terrible mechanic that's a relic of older editions. Psionics is better in every way; it's more flexible, makes lower level powers useful at later levels, and is easier to track.

Erm... No. I call BS on this one. Telling people they can cast X spells of level Y is the single worst mechanic in history, as I already pointed out, but points-based Vancian magic (i.e. you prepare 100 points worth of spells and forget them when you cast them) would work fine, and be a lot better than pure points-based, which is utterly and completely boring.

Psionics weren't particularly good, it just seemed that way because spell slots suck in their entirety.


Then why support d20r? There are about six different types of limitations on casters and other classes, it's less consistent than 3.5e, hilariously unbalanced as that was. D20r needs to pick a casting system and stick with it; it's hard enough to make this balanced, let alone balanced against PP, vancian casting, at will spells from mantles that are set in stone, and skill based card casting with rerolls and passive buffs for having cards.

I could ask the same of you. I'm at least willing to see where this goes instead of writing off every single attempt to create something new as a failure the instant it runs into problems.

I also quite like the Spellweaving mechanic.

However, d20r's problem is that the mechanics don't have enough in common, not that they aren't all the same.

Milskidasith
2009-12-11, 07:57 PM
What? No, this doesn't follow at all. You're free to pop an area-control effect, you're free to buff your entire team, and you're free to take out an opponent. If you need to do something else, you can dismiss an effect.

If you have to dismiss a buff the next action, there's no reason to use it, because it won't last.


I don't see how this even remotely removes SoLs, CC, or buffs as options.

Being a lasting effect, you'd have all your PP locked up in them. If I cast a "save or be dazed for two rounds", then if I wanted to cast the next round, I'd have to dismiss the daze. If I cast a buff, I'd need to dismiss the buff to cast again. If I cast a crowd control fog spell, I'd need to dismiss it in order to cast again.

Either that, or I'd be forced to spend so few points on buffs, CC, and SoLs that they'd be too weak to be used.


Erm... No. I call BS on this one. Telling people they can cast X spells of level Y is the single worst mechanic in history, as I already pointed out, but points-based Vancian magic (i.e. you prepare 100 points worth of spells and forget them when you cast them) would work fine, and be a lot better than pure points-based, which is utterly and completely boring.

Points based vancian has the same stupidity of regular vancian, in that preparing spells just hinders choice and doesn't make sense; why can't I choose what I want to cast when I need to?


Psionics weren't particularly good, it just seemed that way because spell slots suck.

It's easier to run and simpler than this as written.

lesser_minion
2009-12-11, 08:03 PM
If you have to dismiss a buff the next action, there's no reason to use it, because it won't last.



Being a lasting effect, you'd have all your PP locked up in them. If I cast a "save or be dazed for two rounds", then if I wanted to cast the next round, I'd have to dismiss the daze. If I cast a buff, I'd need to dismiss the buff to cast again. If I cast a crowd control fog spell, I'd need to dismiss it in order to cast again.

Either that, or I'd be forced to spend so few points on buffs, CC, and SoLs that they'd be too weak to be used.

The pool of points you have to spend on effects is larger than the maximum you can spend on an effect, so you can have more than one effect active at a time.

That's why I couldn't see where you were coming from earlier - Doc Roc pointed out the issue with SP commitment on its own when I suggested it as an emergency fix (alongside the revised Spell specialisation feat, which removes the half-price effects you were exploiting in your PoC, and an edit to the Invigorating secret to avoid the wolf typo breaking the game).


Points based vancian has the same stupidity of regular vancian, in that preparing spells just hinders choice and doesn't make sense; why can't I choose what I want to cast when I need to?

Preparing spells can make as much sense as it needs to. It's balanced in terms of flexibility - you exchange being able to choose exactly what to cast at any given time for having a wider pool of different effects you could cast.

Psionics requires you to prepare everything once, and heavily limits your ability to change your mind. Yet that somehow hinders choice less? Really?

Milskidasith
2009-12-11, 08:06 PM
Psionics requires you to prepare everything once, and heavily limits your ability to change your mind. Yet that somehow hinders choice less? Really?

It doesn't limit your ability to change your mind... Psychic Reformation costs about as much (if you use the GP to EXP variant) as it would cost for the wizard to learn entirely new spells. Plus, this sorcerer forces you to make a choice and stick with it too, so it isn't a negative for using psionics (or at least not any worse than this).

lesser_minion
2009-12-11, 08:08 PM
It doesn't limit your ability to change your mind... Psychic Reformation costs about as much (if you use the GP to EXP variant) as it would cost for the wizard to learn entirely new spells. Plus, this sorcerer forces you to make a choice and stick with it too, so it isn't a negative for using psionics (or at least not any worse than this).

The 3.5 sorcerer is an awful class. The fact that I didn't mention it isn't a point against Vancian.

Milskidasith
2009-12-11, 08:09 PM
Well, yes, but the 3.5 sorcerer sucks.

I'm talking about this sorcerer... you pick your seeds and can't change them. The 3.5 sorcerer is also very good, just not wizard level good.

lesser_minion
2009-12-11, 08:19 PM
I'm talking about this sorcerer... you pick your seeds and can't change them. The 3.5 sorcerer is also very good, just not wizard level good.

Erm... careful with 'good' and 'bad'. A class can be good or bad regardless of how powerful it is (Fax wrote the book on what makes a good class). Being powerful doesn't make sorcerers, wizards and clerics good. (Sorry about the misuse of the word 'suck', which does mean that something is weak rather than bad)

The Acid seed sucks because it's boring just as much as it sucks because it doesn't do anything useful - buffing the damage wouldn't fix it.

As for this sorcerer, it doesn't use Vancian either.


so it isn't a negative for using psionics (or at least not any worse than this).

I'm not trying to score points against the psion. I'm trying to defend prepared casting. As I said, psionics are OK, but they only look good because most 3.5 casters were incredibly badly done.

The bottom line is that the psion and the spontaneous casters have to define a narrow range of effects that they can call upon - in exchange, they get more flexibility when it comes to casting the spell.

It's a decent trade-off, IMO.

Surrealistik
2009-12-11, 09:00 PM
I'm not going to bother reading through the other stuff just yet, but I'll respond to the most immediate responses:


Your conclusion doesn't follow your proof. Your proof is that psions are better than fighters. Your conclusion is that it's because Psions have a per-day mechanic. There's no connect between the two. Psions are better because they have versatility, not because they have a per-day limit.

No. My proof is that Psions are better than fighters precisely because they have overwhelming amounts of power, and a negligible downside (seriously, if the downside *was* meaningful, the power would be kept in check), where said downside was intended to balance them. My conclusion is that because WotC has invariably failed to produce a balanced per day mechanic (an exceptional blemish on their track record, even for them), and because the limitations of the Psions were overestimated and/or their capabilities underestimated relative to those limitations, it was made far better. It is an irrefutable fact that it is the combination of power without drawback that makes them so strong, not just the power alone.


That doesn't prove that per-day limits are a bad thing, at all. Per-day limits are a great thing when it comes to limiting the massive number of all day buffs you could have up otherwise, but still allow you to fight without limiting your power (unless you do some serious action economy cheese). It also doesn't prove why having at-will powers, or the weird "at-will, but some of your power is locked up if you bother to do anything but blast without causing status conditions" is a better system.

My point is that per-limits are evidently difficult to balance as precedence has established. Seriously much as you might like to malign WotC, it features a host of professional game designers, nearly all of which I'm sure have more experience at game design than any of us, and it has never, ever managed to get a per day system right. As stated before, that's an unusually high failure rate even for the company.

Second, there is absolutely no point to doing something even more labour intensive like rebuilding the class from the ground up to utilize a per day system. Seriously, what's the point when fixing what we have now is comparatively so much easier? You need to prove that this overhaul is worth it. You have not done that at all, so much as attack the existing system, and try and defend the possibility that we could get a per day system right.


Tweaking? The balance on this is nonexistent. The familiar needs to be overhauled and every single seed listed is either used for utility, vastly too weak or vastly too powerful. By your logic, the 3.5e wizard is balanced, and just needs some "tweaking" of his spell list.


Are you serious? Every single seed? I don't think so, that's complete hyperbole. Some seed repricing and feature adjusting clearly does need to be done, but it is not as complete as you make it out to be at all. A lot of what's out there isn't actually broken after applying my fixes.



Uhh... casters and psions are balanced at higher levels. If you mean melee and casters, then yeah, it's a problem, but it's a problem with melee having no flexibility and casters having win button spells, not with the per-day limits. Remember, Fighters have HP, which is a far more easily expended per-day resource than casters spell slots (or this sorcerers HP).

Sorry, by each other I meant with the other classes, particularly the martials. Again, as stated earlier, it's the combination of overwhelming power and insufficient limitations.

Surrealistik
2009-12-11, 09:03 PM
I'm not going to bother reading through the other stuff just yet, but I'll respond to the most immediate replies:


Your conclusion doesn't follow your proof. Your proof is that psions are better than fighters. Your conclusion is that it's because Psions have a per-day mechanic. There's no connect between the two. Psions are better because they have versatility, not because they have a per-day limit.

No. My proof is that Psions are better than fighters precisely because they have overwhelming amounts of power, and a negligible downside, where said downside was intended to balance them. My conclusion is that because WotC has invariably failed to produce a balanced per day mechanic (an exceptional blemish on their track record, even for them), and because the limitations of the Psions were overestimated and/or their capabilities underestimated relative to those limitations, it was made far better than the fighter. It is an irrefutable fact that it is the combination of power without drawback that makes them so strong, not just the power alone; if the downside *was* meaningful, the power would obviously be kept in check.


That doesn't prove that per-day limits are a bad thing, at all. Per-day limits are a great thing when it comes to limiting the massive number of all day buffs you could have up otherwise, but still allow you to fight without limiting your power (unless you do some serious action economy cheese). It also doesn't prove why having at-will powers, or the weird "at-will, but some of your power is locked up if you bother to do anything but blast without causing status conditions" is a better system.

My point is that per-day limits are evidently difficult to balance as precedence has established. Seriously, much as you might like to malign WotC, it features a host of professional game designers, nearly all of which I'm sure have more experience at game design than any of us, and it has never, ever managed to get a per day system right. As stated before, that's an unusually high failure rate even for the company.

Second, there is absolutely no point to doing something even more labour intensive like rebuilding the class from the ground up to utilize a per day system. Seriously, what's the point when fixing what we have now is comparatively so much easier? You need to prove that this overhaul is worth it. You have not done that at all, so much as attack the existing system, and try and defend the possibility that we could get a per day system right, while praising its marginally greater simplicity (which by itself does not produce a superior system).


Tweaking? The balance on this is nonexistent. The familiar needs to be overhauled and every single seed listed is either used for utility, vastly too weak or vastly too powerful. By your logic, the 3.5e wizard is balanced, and just needs some "tweaking" of his spell list.


Are you serious? Every single seed? I don't think so, that's complete hyperbole. Some seed repricing and feature adjusting clearly does need to be done, but the issues are not as pervasive and irredeemable as you make them out to be at all, and many of the remedies are not difficult to effect. A lot of what's out there isn't actually broken after applying my fixes. It's not comparable to the Wizard at all which has book upon book full of spells, feats and synergies to nerf.



Uhh... casters and psions are balanced at higher levels. If you mean melee and casters, then yeah, it's a problem, but it's a problem with melee having no flexibility and casters having win button spells, not with the per-day limits. Remember, Fighters have HP, which is a far more easily expended per-day resource than casters spell slots (or this sorcerers HP).

Sorry, by each other I meant with the other classes, particularly the martials. Again, as stated earlier, it's the combination of overwhelming power and insufficient limitations that's to blame.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-11, 09:26 PM
Couple this with a chop back the cost on damage per die, and up the cost on duration/non-damage effects, with a possible alteration to how seeds apply (I may go back to my one-secret-per-spell I had originally, but that felt so limiting), and what do we get?
Yes, needs to scale back the cost of damage per die. Everyone already agrees that damage output is sub-par, so why bother charging so much for it? Yes, increase cost of Save or Loose effects, particularly the secrets. Yes, I think one secret per spell is good, but possibly have high-end feat-trees which will let you get additional secrets. This gives you the flexability you want, without making it brokentastical, or at least charging more for brokentasticalness so it doesn't come free with the base package.


Assume for now that the actual quantity provided by the spellweaving class feature won't change, but the seeds themselves will drastically--I encourage you to wildly make up numbers for seeds that don't exist so that things will work. Also consider the idea of having a flat 10+CHA for Save DC, and requiring spending SP to increment the DC at the cost of getting less spell effects.

I *STRONGLY* support requiring spending SP to increment the DC! This is the *PERFECT* solution to the problem I had. What makes SoL's less game-breaking is that if you make your save, you don't loose, and the caster wasted his action this round. So, force him to spent SP to jack up the DC's. Make sure to put in a CAP on how much he can do this (probably 1/2 CL), or you'll end up with spells with insanely high DC's.


Again, like I said earlier: this is an untried system. It is going to be buggy. I would rather make and then fix then try to make it perfect from the get-go.

I think you've got an innovative and potentially strong system. Sure, it's got bugs. Fine. That's why we're working on it.

Here's an idea, though:

Lots of damage-based seeds have a secret that has a Save or Loose (Acid and Cold, I'm looking at YOU in particular). That's is what I am exploiting to break the casting system. The seeds that are, specifically, SoL are suitabally expensive. However, for an extra 2sp, I can tack on TWO different SoL effects, targeting TWO different saves.

I think you may need to reconsider what KIND of secrets the seeds are allowed access to. I think a damage-output seed needs to have secrets that either increase damage, penetrate defenses (portion of damage either penetrates or bypasses resistance), or in some other way augments the focus of the seed: to dish out the damage.

I think Save or Loose effects need to be their own seeds, which can then be mixed in with the rest of the stuff. So if you want to throw out acid damage + Fort Save or be Nauseated, I think instead of using the Acid seed + Seed Secret, you should use Acid seed + Sickening seed.

Surrealistik
2009-12-12, 01:19 AM
Yes, needs to scale back the cost of damage per die. Everyone already agrees that damage output is sub-par, so why bother charging so much for it? Yes, increase cost of Save or Loose effects, particularly the secrets. Yes, I think one secret per spell is good, but possibly have high-end feat-trees which will let you get additional secrets. This gives you the flexability you want, without making it brokentastical, or at least charging more for brokentasticalness so it doesn't come free with the base package.

The only problem I have with Secrets is that they seem to be undercosted relative to their effect. I do not think that Secrets necessarily require a hard limit so much as a cost that more accurately reflects the value of stacking Secrets. For example, the SP cost of each Secret applied to a spell could equal the total number of secrets applied; specifically a Spell with 3 total Secrets applied would cost 9 SP more to cast, while a Spell with 1 Secret applied would cost only 1 additional SP. Feats that reduce that cost may help mitigate some of this expense.



I *STRONGLY* support requiring spending SP to increment the DC! This is the *PERFECT* solution to the problem I had. What makes SoL's less game-breaking is that if you make your save, you don't loose, and the caster wasted his action this round. So, force him to spent SP to jack up the DC's. Make sure to put in a CAP on how much he can do this (probably 1/2 CL), or you'll end up with spells with insanely high DC's.


I dislike the idea of having to directly spend SP to increment DCs, rather than DCs incrementing passively as you invest in other effects. I've posted how the latter idea is balanced relative to level appropriate encounters, and 3.5 equivalents giving specific examples and comparisons at level 1, 10, and 20. The reasons I do not take to it are as follows:

A: Counterintuitive design; a seed with effects of greater potency is easier to resist?

B: Necessity; why is it necessary to require a direct investment to bolster DCs when passive SP orientated increases allow for both intuitive and balanced design? Do Sorcerers really need this sort of point sink despite analysis indicating the contrary under the purview of alternate solutions?



I think you may need to reconsider what KIND of secrets the seeds are allowed access to. I think a damage-output seed needs to have secrets that either increase damage, penetrate defenses (portion of damage either penetrates or bypasses resistance), or in some other way augments the focus of the seed: to dish out the damage.

I like these ideas, particularly the specific suggestions for the damage enhancing secrets.



I think Save or Loose effects need to be their own seeds, which can then be mixed in with the rest of the stuff. So if you want to throw out acid damage + Fort Save or be Nauseated, I think instead of using the Acid seed + Seed Secret, you should use Acid seed + Sickening seed.

Not sure about this; alternatively you could have the SoL/SoS feature added as an ability to the damage seed. I am not adverse to this idea though.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-12, 02:08 AM
The only problem I have with Secrets is that they seem to be undercosted relative to their effect. I do not think that Secrets necessarily require a hard limit so much as a cost that more accurately reflects the value of stacking Secrets. For example, the SP cost of each Secret applied to a spell could equal the total number of secrets applied; specifically a Spell with 3 total Secrets applied would cost 9 SP more to cast, while a Spell with 1 Secret applied would cost only 1 additional SP. Feats that reduce that cost may help mitigate some of this expense. But it only takes one secret to be able to tack on a SoL, which is stupidly powerful. Hence my earlier suggestion to make a secret DOUBLE the cost of the seed.



I dislike the idea of having to directly spend SP to increment DCs, rather than DCs incrementing passively as you invest in other effects. I've posted how the latter idea is balanced relative to level appropriate encounters, and 3.5 equivalents giving specific examples and comparisons at level 1, 10, and 20. The reasons I do not take to it are as follows:

A: Counterintuitive design; a seed with effects of greater potency is easier to resist?

B: Necessity; why is it necessary to require a direct investment to bolster DCs when passive SP orientated increases allow for both intuitive and balanced design? Do Sorcerers really need this sort of point sink despite analysis indicating the contrary under the purview of alternate solutions?

Simple:

You either has a more powerful effect which is less likely to be as effective against stronger opponents, or you have an effect which, while less damaging, is more likely to penetrate an opponent's defenses. Trading power for ability to land. I like that. Particularly because of SoL type effects.


Not sure about this; alternatively you could have the SoL/SoS feature added as an ability to the damage seed. I am not adverse to this idea though.

Then the cost of tacking on an SoL/SoS onto a damaging effect needs to be dramatically changed.

Honestly, I don't think a caster who can spam spells all day long needs as many SoL type spells as it has. You're looking at something rather like a Warlock, in that he can produce an unlimited number of times per day. Give him lockdown ability, and either opponents become immune to that lockdown, or encounters become too easy.

Surrealistik
2009-12-12, 02:17 AM
But it only takes one secret to be able to tack on a SoL, which is stupidly powerful. Hence my earlier suggestion to make a secret DOUBLE the cost of the seed.

Excessive, particularly if you also want to require direct investment in DCs. Personally, I do not like most SoL Secrets, and I find that they would be better added as appropriately costed abilities, or Seeds as per your suggestion.



Simple:

You either has a more powerful effect which is less likely to be as effective against stronger opponents, or you have an effect which, while less damaging, is more likely to penetrate an opponent's defenses. Trading power for ability to land. I like that. Particularly because of SoL type effects.

It's still a counterintuitive effect. There is also the problem of a penetrating effect potentially being all but inconsequential. Lastly; my passive investment system already allows for properly scaled DCs. I don't see the need; it seems like an excessive nerf. However, will juggle around some numbers and theoretical situations before I come to a conclusion.



Then the cost of tacking on an SoL/SoS onto a damaging effect needs to be dramatically changed.

Honestly, I don't think a caster who can spam spells all day long needs as many SoL type spells as it has. You're looking at something rather like a Warlock, in that he can produce an unlimited number of times per day. Give him lockdown ability, and either opponents become immune to that lockdown, or encounters become too easy.

I agree. SoL/SoS needs to cost. As Seed secrets that are 1 SP apiece, that's way too low for the potential benefit. Either an appropriately costed additional ability or Seed is the way to go.

lesser_minion
2009-12-12, 04:43 AM
It's still a counterintuitive effect. There is also the problem of a penetrating effect potentially being all but inconsequential. Lastly; my passive investment system already allows for properly scaled DCs. I don't see the need; it seems like an excessive nerf. However, will juggle around some numbers and theoretical situations before I come to a conclusion.

It's harder to place an effect on someone the more powerful that effect is, and its harder to place an effect on someone the tougher they are. It works well, and isn't counter-intuitive at all.


I agree. SoL/SoS needs to cost. As Seed secrets that are 1 SP apiece, that's way too low for the potential benefit. Either an appropriately costed additional ability or Seed is the way to go.

I think all SoLs have to be seeds really.

Frog Dragon
2009-12-12, 05:36 AM
While making a kobold sorceror 1 for the playtest game in the PBP forum I accidentally caused this.
Force Seed apparently doesn't have either saves or attack rolls. However, it's damage is underwhelming. Or it would be unless you find some nice bonuses. Enter intelligient targeting
Int 17 (+3), Cha 16 (+3)
I have 7 SP so I can use my force seed to deal 1d4+2, but when I add Int Targeting I'm dealing 1d4+5, no save, no attack roll. That's capable of two shotting most stuff around the starting levels and they can't do a goddamn thing. Now I'm not sure how broken, if at all this actually is, but it sure looks impressive for a first level kobold. Is this intentional?

lesser_minion
2009-12-12, 06:00 AM
Well, bear in mind that d12 + 6 is basically the standard at low levels, and that battles in D&D are fought at comically short ranges.

Anyone you hit with that blast is quite capable of killing you just as quickly, if not faster.

The real issue with the force seed is when you find a cost reducer and end up crafting a large armour and DR buff.

Surrealistik
2009-12-12, 10:24 AM
It's harder to place an effect on someone the more powerful that effect is, and its harder to place an effect on someone the tougher they are. It works well, and isn't counter-intuitive at all.

I don't think you're considering it correctly. Consider the difference between nailing someone with Meteor Swarm and Burning Hands for example, or to be more generic, a huge, roiling ball of fire versus a tiny bolt. The former is harder to dodge than the latter. To use a Fortitude equivalent, let's say it's an overwhelming torrent of cold versus a magically endowed snowball. This is what I mean about this approach being counterintuitive; the more powerful an effect is, generally the harder it should be to resist.

Further, 3.5 features precedence for more powerful at-will effects being harder to resist, with the Warlock's higher level invocations featuring higher DCs.

Most importantly though is whether or not this nerf is actually necessary.

lesser_minion
2009-12-12, 12:36 PM
The huge rolling ball of flame is almost certainly a lot harder to control.

If you're going to invade someone's mind, you need to break through their defences before you can start throwing switches. The same goes for screwing around with someone's body.

Also, a more powerful effect isn't necessarily a larger one - a disintegrate spell, for example, is a green bolt of light, not a rolling wave of destructive energy. So you'd have to invest some juice into boosting the size of whatever effect you're producing.

Note that precedence is irrelevant.

Surrealistik
2009-12-12, 01:30 PM
The huge rolling ball of flame is almost certainly a lot harder to control.

If you're going to invade someone's mind, you need to break through their defences before you can start throwing switches. The same goes for screwing around with someone's body.

Also, a more powerful effect isn't necessarily a larger one - a disintegrate spell, for example, is a green bolt of light, not a rolling wave of destructive energy. So you'd have to invest some juice into boosting the size of whatever effect you're producing.

Note that precedence is irrelevant.

What do you need to control? You define the target and let her rip.

Second, the effect doesn't necessarily need to be merely larger for it to be more difficult to resist, particularly in the case of Fortitude and Will saves; a person gets hit with two blasts of necromatic energy. One is so powerful that it could instantly kill him. Another might fatigue him. Under this system, the latter effect is much more likely to have an impact which is absurd. Will same idea; one is powerful enough to stun while the other merely fascinates. In terms of game design and mechanics there is absolutely a logic to it because a trade off principle is at work, and I am not disputing that. When viewing the system from an IC vantage however, such a trade off is absolutely counterintuitive and irrational.

Precedence is not irrelevant either because not only was the Warlock not imbalanced, it was underpowered (T4 class), and yet had at-will effects with passively scaling DCs. There were many contributing factors to its placement, absolutely, but this goes to show that passively scaling DCs for at-will abilities are not necessarily tantamount to imbalance. Further, my own case studies also prove that passively increased DCs keyed to SP investment are balanced.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-12, 01:33 PM
It makes sense, because you have to oppose either your opponent's body's natural resitance (fort), or their own will power with the force of your mind....which will be less able to break through it if you're concentrating on a more powerful spell to hit them with.

Surrealistik
2009-12-12, 01:40 PM
The idea is that you crush their defenses with an overwhelming effect; this is the logic all passively scaling DCs subscribe to and it makes sense. You don't need to actively oppose your target because the super powerful spell you're tossing at them will take care of that itself.

lesser_minion
2009-12-12, 01:53 PM
What do you need to control? You define the target and let her rip.

No, you guide the magic to the target. It's a big effect, so you don't need an attack roll, but it still takes a lot of effort to make sure they catch the brunt of the blast, which reduces the amount of magic you can channel into making the blast more powerful.

It certainly makes more sense for this sorcerer to be like this.


Second, the effect doesn't necessarily need to be merely larger for it to be more difficult to resist, particularly in the case of Fortitude and Will saves; a person gets hit with two blasts of necromatic energy. One is so powerful that it could instantly kill him. Another might fatigue him.

No, he gets hit with a bolt of energy that shatters his defences, but all the sorcerer can do afterwards is fatigue him. Alternatively, he gets hit with a bolt of energy that fails to shatter his defences, but if it had, the sorcerer would have been able to kill him.

The sorcerer had to throw more juice at the guy's defences, so he has less juice for messing around with the guy.


Under this system, the latter effect is much more likely to have an impact which is absurd. Will same idea; one is powerful enough to stun while the other merely fascinates. In terms of game design and mechanics there is absolutely a logic to it because a trade off principle is at work, and I am not disputing that. Other than that though, when viewing it from an IC vantage, such a trade off is absolutely counterintuitive and irrational.

It is neither counter-intuitive nor irrational in any way, shape or form.

In both cases, this is what you have to do when you're channeling the very flow of magic. It's easier to put a weaker effect on someone because you need less power on top of what you already had to throw at their defences. That's actually perfectly logical.


Precedence is not irrelevant either because not only was the Warlock not imbalanced, it was underpowered (T4 class), and yet had at-will effects with passively scaling DCs. There were many contributing factors to its placement, absolutely, but this goes to show that passively scaling DCs for at-will abilities are not necessarily tantamount to imbalance. Further, my own case studies also prove that passively increased DCs keyed to SP investment are balanced.

Fun fact: Tier 4 isn't underpowered. It's actually the closest tier to where the designers wanted everything to be.

In any event, I'm not actually saying that having DCs go up with everything else is less balanced (note all the classes well above Tier 4 that also have DCs that increase automatically with the power of the effect), I'm saying that it makes less sense in a lot of situations.

Surrealistik
2009-12-12, 08:25 PM
No, you guide the magic to the target. It's a big effect, so you don't need an attack roll, but it still takes a lot of effort to make sure they catch the brunt of the blast, which reduces the amount of magic you can channel into making the blast more powerful.

It certainly makes more sense for this sorcerer to be like this.

Completely arbitrary; it does not. So the sorcerer must now expend actual spell power to make sure the fiery blast homes in on and hits its target rather than anything that might actually make sense (like say additional time and concentration) in the event that he actually needed to take pains to direct a spell? The theory is completely out of left field.



No, he gets hit with a bolt of energy that shatters his defences, but all the sorcerer can do afterwards is fatigue him. Alternatively, he gets hit with a bolt of energy that fails to shatter his defences, but if it had, the sorcerer would have been able to kill him.

The sorcerer had to throw more juice at the guy's defences, so he has less juice for messing around with the guy.


It is neither counter-intuitive nor irrational in any way, shape or form.

In both cases, this is what you have to do when you're channeling the very flow of magic. It's easier to put a weaker effect on someone because you need less power on top of what you already had to throw at their defences. That's actually perfectly logical.

No. It's easier to put an effect on someone precisely because the effect is more powerful and simply overwhelms, not because you somehow are able to arbitrarily and specifically channel power into circumventing defenses at the cost of the spell's overall efficacy.



Fun fact: Tier 4 isn't underpowered. It's actually the closest tier to where the designers wanted everything to be.

In any event, I'm not actually saying that having DCs go up with everything else is less balanced (note all the classes well above Tier 4 that also have DCs that increase automatically with the power of the effect), I'm saying that it makes less sense in a lot of situations.

? How do you know that T4 is the designer intended sweet spot?

Further, how do passive DC increases make less sense in a lot of situations? I've shown that it is actually the most IC logically consistent option. The more powerful the spell, the harder it is to resist; the rationale is bulletproof. This is the way it has always been, and should continue to be precisely because it makes the most sense; Wail of the Banshee is harder to resist than Touch of Fatigue because it is a far more powerful effect. Likewise relative to Dominate Monster and Charm Person. Meteor Swarm to Fireball, etc...

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-13, 05:58 PM
Okay, I think the both of you have rather gone off-topic, as interesting as the debate is to read.

I really think our first focus should be game mechanics balance. We need to bring this down to something other than T1.0, because right now? It has unlimited at-will shut-down and insanely massive buffing ability.

So, all in favor of suggesting that SoL effects should not be Secrets tacked onto damage-output seeds, unless the cost of Secrets is *massively* overhauled?

lesser_minion
2009-12-13, 06:19 PM
Sure. They should be seeds, if available at all.

The thing is that Secrets are currently weird anyway - some of them add +1 DC, some of them kill your opponent.

A much better format would be to have Secrets as a 'higher tier' seed - instead of Acid Seed, with secrets Nauseating, Caustic, and so on, you have Acid seed, with a mix of effects, and some more effects that you can produce if you have the Acid Secret.


Completely arbitrary; it does not. So the sorcerer must now expend actual spell power to make sure the fiery blast homes in on and hits its target rather than anything that might actually make sense (like say additional time and concentration) in the event that he actually needed to take pains to direct a spell? The theory is completely out of left field.

No, the sorcerer must concentrate more on actually hitting his target, and so is less able to concentrate on gathering spell power. End result, he gathers less spell power, and so can do less.

The sorcerer is using ambient magic in some way to cast spells - that's why it doesn't put any strain on his body.

The resource that SP's represent is mostly skill, rather than power. Fortitude and Will saves could also be seen the same way - throw magic at someone, and their body instinctively rejects it. It takes skill to stop that happening.


No. It's easier to put an effect on someone precisely because the effect is more powerful and simply overwhelms, not because you somehow are able to arbitrarily and specifically channel power into circumventing defenses at the cost of the spell's overall efficacy.

For a wizard, the DC thing makes sense - their spells are set in stone, and a wizard probably does pour a lot more juice into his spells. However, the underlying issue here is still the same. A wizard's power level is supposed to double every two levels, approximately.

That means that a spell slot of a given level represents twice as much juice as a spell slot of a previous weapon. That means you are using 16 times as much juice to kill someone as you are to give them some minor malaise. That's easily enough to throw a tonne of juice at someone's magical defences and then kill them.

Also, bear in mind that any given opponent is going to put a lot more effort into resisting an attack on their very life essence than they are going to put into resisting an attempt to give them a mild headache.


How do you know that T4 is the designer intended sweet spot?

See the wiki. The rogue is closest to being the class that can actually follow the "four encounters a day rule".

You haven't given any sort of convincing explanation for why your fluff makes more sense than my fluff. Partly to do with this being a fluff argument - the fluff that gets used is what fits the game. There is a simple, internally consistent, and sensible rationale for having spells become less likely to work the larger they are, and the larger they have to be. If it can improve something about the game, it's the better option.

thegurullamen
2009-12-13, 07:06 PM
How about instead of SoL, it's SoSufferMinorPenaltiesThatCompound? For example, you have the Acid and Fly seeds which lets you rain down caustic damage on your enemies. Cool. Later, you take the Acid Secret and unlock some cooler Acid abilities like (something weaker than Nauseating), like lesser_minion suggested. When you hit your enemy, they get debuffed. When you hit them with the same seed or attack again, they suffer more from the same effect. Instead of a -1 to attacks and saves, it's -2 then -4 then -8, etc. It's no longer an 'I Win' button but still carries some weight in battle.

You could also give stronger Secrets level requirements. No Acid Secret before 8th, no Ultimate Fire of Ultimate Doom Secret before 11th.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-13, 11:54 PM
How about instead of SoL, it's SoSufferMinorPenaltiesThatCompound? For example, you have the Acid and Fly seeds which lets you rain down caustic damage on your enemies. Cool. Later, you take the Acid Secret and unlock some cooler Acid abilities like (something weaker than Nauseating), like lesser_minion suggested. When you hit your enemy, they get debuffed. When you hit them with the same seed or attack again, they suffer more from the same effect. Instead of a -1 to attacks and saves, it's -2 then -4 then -8, etc. It's no longer an 'I Win' button but still carries some weight in battle.

You could also give stronger Secrets level requirements. No Acid Secret before 8th, no Ultimate Fire of Ultimate Doom Secret before 11th.

I think this may be the way to go...

As a base 'template', Seed Secrets for damage-output might be:

* 1/2 of the damage ignores resistance/immunity
* Opponent also has resistance to this element reduced by 5, to a minimum of 0. This effect explicitly stacks with itself
* +1 Damage/die
* Minor penalty targeting one of the following: Attack, AC, or SR. Effects are cumulative.
* Save or minor status effect (entangled, sickened, shaken, or fatigued). Effects are not cumulative or stacking, even if the effect normally is.

You need 4th level to be able to get the first secret, and to get additional secrets, you'll need another 4 levels each. Thus you need 8th to get a 2nd secret on the same seed, etc...

thegurullamen
2009-12-14, 02:48 AM
* 1/2 of the damage ignores resistance/immunity
* Opponent also has resistance to this element reduced by 5, to a minimum of 0. This effect explicitly stacks with itself
* +1 Damage/die
* Minor penalty targeting one of the following: Attack, AC, or SR. Effects are cumulative.
* Save or minor status effect (entangled, sickened, shaken, or fatigued). Effects are not cumulative or stacking, even if the effect normally is.

You need 4th level to be able to get the first secret, and to get additional secrets, you'll need another 4 levels each. Thus you need 8th to get a 2nd secret on the same seed, etc...

I think that might be too weak. Why not just open up all of the Secrets at once and allow the Sorc to use them how he wants? If he's got let's say the Fire Seed, giving him all of the above at various SP costs (instead of withholding all but one) opens up a lot of possibilities to explore. Aside from Direct blasting, he's got tactics to work with now. Does he debuff, tear away at the elemental resistance, stack extra damage? He can mix and match at a cost, but he can't do all of them; SP conservation prevents it.

I think we could probably work in a Seed Mastery somehow. You get one or two and only at high levels. They've got the good stuff: Save or Suck/Lose/Die/GoToJailDoNotPassGoDoNotCollect$200, bigger effects (earthquakes for Earth Seed, Hellfire typed damage for Fire, Tidal Waves for Water, whatever else we can think up.) That might just be a pipe dream as it encroaches on Wiz territory and seems harder to balance, but it gives Sorcs something to shoot for at later levels and preserves the thematic caster archetype from fantasy.

Darkkwalker
2009-12-14, 02:03 PM
You might try lifting some seeds from the Avatar d20 project this forum had.
It would be great for elemental seeds.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-14, 04:23 PM
Save or Suck/Lose/Die/GoToJailDoNotPassGoDoNotCollect$200

I'ma sigging this. Ty.

lesser_minion
2009-12-14, 04:51 PM
I think the simplest route for handling secrets is to simply make each Secret into a souped up version of an existing seed.

That souped up seed could potentially include a Save or Go-to-jail-do-not-pass-go-do-not-collect-£200, which would be better balanced because the sorcerer would still need a lot of points to manage it.

For a general seed format, I'd suggest the following (also contains a couple of new conventions):

Seed Name

Save Type:
Base Cost: The overall cost to use a seed equals its base cost times its magnitude.
Maximum Duration: For example, one minute per point of magnitude. I'd suggest making all sorcerer spells dismissible
Base Effects: You can pick one of the effects from this list. The base effects should be mutually exclusive things - I don't really see sorcerers casting a spell that deals 8d6 damage and hastes the target, for example.
Foundation Augments: Extra options which can be added to one of the Base Effects. These scale with the magnitude of the seed, and cost a listed number of additional points.
Secret Augments: These follow the same format as the additional effects, but cannot be chosen until you learn the seed's Secret level.
Mystery Augments: These follow the same format as foundation and secret effects, but require you to learn the seed at mystery level
Whatever-the-next-level-is-called Augments: And so on...


I'll see what I can do about concocting an example.

Surrealistik
2009-12-14, 08:34 PM
No, the sorcerer must concentrate more on actually hitting his target, and so is less able to concentrate on gathering spell power. End result, he gathers less spell power, and so can do less.

The sorcerer is using ambient magic in some way to cast spells - that's why it doesn't put any strain on his body.

The resource that SP's represent is mostly skill, rather than power. Fortitude and Will saves could also be seen the same way - throw magic at someone, and their body instinctively rejects it. It takes skill to stop that happening.

You are making self-serving assumptions.

Chief among these is that SP is a measure of skill rather than raw power shaped into an effect.

Second is that concentrating on directing a spell (which really shouldn't be all that difficult) impedes his ability to shape SP.

Third is that the Sorcerer actually has to actively concentrate to direct a non-concentration spell.



For a wizard, the DC thing makes sense - their spells are set in stone, and a wizard probably does pour a lot more juice into his spells. However, the underlying issue here is still the same. A wizard's power level is supposed to double every two levels, approximately.

That means that a spell slot of a given level represents twice as much juice as a spell slot of a previous weapon. That means you are using 16 times as much juice to kill someone as you are to give them some minor malaise. That's easily enough to throw a tonne of juice at someone's magical defences and then kill them.

Also, bear in mind that any given opponent is going to put a lot more effort into resisting an attack on their very life essence than they are going to put into resisting an attempt to give them a mild headache.

First, what validates the assertion of Wizards doubling in power every two level while disjointing the Sorcerer's power progression from the Wizard's such that your system is justified?

Second, are you not effectively admitting that there is indeed a correlation between an increase of a spell's power, and an increase in the difficulty of resisting a spell, or at the very least that sheer power can and will overwhelm defenses?

Third, since when has the nature of a spell's effects ever entered into how fiercely an individual attempts to resist a spell? How does one know the consequences of a spell outside of a Spellcraft (or equivalent) check? If it's a vague, instinctual idea as a consequence of stimuli like pain, or some other sensation that is roughly proportionate to the scope of the effect, how does the resistance scale so precisely with the consequences of that spell? If resistance and opposition is variable, why not always make a full attempt to resist a spell?



See the wiki. The rogue is closest to being the class that can actually follow the "four encounters a day rule".

You haven't given any sort of convincing explanation for why your fluff makes more sense than my fluff. Partly to do with this being a fluff argument - the fluff that gets used is what fits the game. There is a simple, internally consistent, and sensible rationale for having spells become less likely to work the larger they are, and the larger they have to be. If it can improve something about the game, it's the better option.

I think I have. It logically follows with absolute certainty that a spell with more power invested in it, featuring more powerful effects is generally harder to resist. By contrast, a middling or weak spell that is somehow "finessed" to bypass defenses at the cost of its overall strength is substantially less rational. I do not think you have provided a functional argument, given the very premise of such a system, and that your position is predicated on many self-serving presumptions, many of them awkward and questionable. Furthermore, the strongest basis or justification for actively scaling DCs is its mechanical, OOC quality of a tradeoff that in itself may not be necessary at all (given that passive DCs can easily prove balanced as I've indisputably shown), and could needlessly complicate things by having to factor in and limit DC purchasing for SP pricing. Furthermore, with talk about repricing Secrets, requiring a player to pay for DC boosts on top of increased Secret costs strikes me as a bad idea. Of course, this could be fixed by increasing the SP available, but this would in turn complicate things even further by requiring even more repricing.


As for the question of Seeds, I'm with thegurullamen; basically secrets should take the form of purchasable abilities not scaled to level that are unlocked as you acquire them via Sorcerer Secret progression; the more Secrets you possess for a Seed, the more you can simultaneously apply to it. Think of it as a sort of Seed mastery that makes the mastered Seed even more versatile and powerful. Simple, balanced and elegant.

lesser_minion
2009-12-14, 09:38 PM
Let's go back to this point, because I'm an idiot:


I don't think you're considering it correctly. Consider the difference between nailing someone with Meteor Swarm and Burning Hands for example, or to be more generic, a huge, roiling ball of fire versus a tiny bolt. The former is harder to dodge than the latter. To use a Fortitude equivalent, let's say it's an overwhelming torrent of cold versus a magically endowed snowball. This is what I mean about this approach being counterintuitive; the more powerful an effect is, generally the harder it should be to resist.

You're right that the effect is more likely to get through in these cases, but that's because what you're describing here is actually a case of a simple effect being bolstered to overcome a defence. The unrelenting torrent of cold does the same thing as the snowball, but to something much bigger. The snowball freezes an ant. The torrent freezes a great wyrm dragon.

Same goes for meteor swarm and the burning hands spell. The effect of both is actually to "sauté one or more victims". The meteor swarm works on bigger victims and ones who are better at dodging.

Intuitively, it is a much greater task to kill a great wyrm dragon than to kill a rabbit. Ergo, any spell trying to do so requires more power to be invested (or more skill to be applied), despite it having the same effect on its victim.

In game terms, the fact that it takes more magic - or more skilfully applied magic - to kill the great wyrm dragon with magic is represented by its higher saves.

So to make a spell capable of killing a rabbit, you make the effect "kills victim" and the save DC 9.

To make a spell capable of killing an able-bodied man, you make the effect "kills victim" and the save DC 12.

And to make a spell capable of bringing down a great wyrm, you need the effect "kills victim" and the save DC a lot higher.

How does that sound?

Doing something to a stronger opponent has to be a greater task than doing the same thing to a weaker one, and we represent being able to put a given effect on a stronger opponent by increasing the DC of the save.

thegurullamen
2009-12-15, 03:13 AM
I've got a basic Seed reworked around lesser_minion's proposal.

Fire Seed

Save Type: Reflex Half
Base Cost: 3SP (The overall cost to use a seed equals its base cost times its magnitude.)
Maximum Duration: One round per 2 levels (D)

Base Effects:
--+1d6 fire damage per point of magnitude

Foundation Augments: (select one in addition to base effect)
Igniting: The spell ignites target, dealing 1d6 fire per round afterwards. A DC 15 Reflex save puts out the fire, and a creature who makes the initial save does not catch fire.
+3SP
Shield: The spell surrounds the caster, forming a defensive wall of fire. Any creatures attacking with natural or non-reach melee weapons take 1d6 fire damage for each point of the spell's magnitude.
+3SP

Secret Augments: (select one in addition to base effect and/or foundation augment)
Searing: Target must make a Fort save or lose 5 fire resistance for (the maximum duration).
+3SP
Forceful: The spell bull-rushes the target, using a Strength bonus equal to the spell's magnitude.
+5SP
Strong: +1DC up to a maximum of level/3
+3SP
Pyromancy: The caster may control fires he creates [as per the fire control rules which have yet to be written. Ideas: May make a number of squares of fire equal to the spell's magnitude, increase duration/potency of ignited creatures or subdue any nonmagical fire within 30 feet.]
+3SP

Mystery Augments:
Hellfire: Spell deals damage in hellfire (untyped) damage instead of fire damage. Hellfire spells inflict a -4 penalty to all saving throws involving fire effects for the spell's duration.
+10SP
Fire Mastery: May make a save against any fire spell within 30 feet even if it doesn't affect the sorc. If he succeeds, he gains control of that spell as if he had cast it, but its duration, if greater than instantaneous, shortens to one round. Non arcane fire spells gain a +4 bonus to the save.

It's a little clunky and the math is really, really off so don't judge it on those grounds, but this is sort of the thing I envisioned. Working it into the other seeds, especially the more abstract ones like Conceal and Wolf will be painful (if it's even necessary; no idea what Fax's take is on any of this yet.) Here's a prototype anyways. Feel free to beat it with a crowbar of creative reckoning.

EDIT: Updated with Shield and Control.

lesser_minion
2009-12-15, 08:26 AM
With the Fire Seed, I think there needs to be a Fire Shield base effect, and possibly a few other things, such as controlling a fire.

I'll see what I can do about making things run a little more smoothly though. Were there any particular reasons why you felt it was a bit inelegant?

I'd also suggest tying the maximum duration to the magnitude of the effect. Also, you shouldn't need a (D) - I'm pretty sure all sorceror spells will be dismissible by definition if I've understood Fax's plan correctly.

In that case, there wouldn't even be a reason to include a duration line at all - the sorcerer may as well just be able to keep the effect running for as long as he remains conscious.

Lappy9000
2009-12-15, 11:26 AM
I agree that the bonuses to the save DC could indeed use a level cap to help keep things in line. That fire seed looks pretty good, could use a bit more in my opinion, though.

Speaking of which, a friend of mine play-tested a satyr sorcerer a while back, and I believe he noted that (feel free to correct me on any of this, blackspeeker) the seeds he took, word, time, and force didn't have enough utility.

Regardless, it would be nice for the seed to have a good number of alternative functions, so that playing a sorcerer is a bit more varied.

lesser_minion
2009-12-15, 01:44 PM
Something which just occurred to me after the whole argument about spending points to increase save DCs:

Magnitude does three things - it increases the save DC for a nasty effect, such as nausea, fatigue, or death; it increases the amount of damage done by some kind of blast; or it increases the potency of a harmless effect.

Why, however, are we allowing people to apply two different defences (hitpoints and a saving throw) against a damage effect, but only one defence against any other nasty effect?

It seems to me that being allowed to roll a saving throw against a direct damage effect should be a special ability or a class feature, rather than something given to everyone.

I also don't really see anyone without extra-special training being able to respond in a split second to something like a fireball.

Would it be unbalanced to remove the 'Reflex half' from damaging effects, and change Evasion so that it reads:

Evasion: As an extraordinary ability, when this creature suffers damage from certain effects, it may make a reflex saving throw to dodge the brunt of the attack. If this save is successful, the creature suffers no damage from the effect.

Milskidasith
2009-12-15, 02:26 PM
Bad idea.10char.

lesser_minion
2009-12-15, 02:40 PM
Bad idea.10char.

Why?

The only issues I see with it are problems like tripping players up by changing a familiar rule.

There shouldn't be any balance issues or anything like that.

Surrealistik
2009-12-15, 02:40 PM
Let's go back to this point, because I'm an idiot:



You're right that the effect is more likely to get through in these cases, but that's because what you're describing here is actually a case of a simple effect being bolstered to overcome a defence. The unrelenting torrent of cold does the same thing as the snowball, but to something much bigger. The snowball freezes an ant. The torrent freezes a great wyrm dragon.

Same goes for meteor swarm and the burning hands spell. The effect of both is actually to "sauté one or more victims". The meteor swarm works on bigger victims and ones who are better at dodging.

Intuitively, it is a much greater task to kill a great wyrm dragon than to kill a rabbit. Ergo, any spell trying to do so requires more power to be invested (or more skill to be applied), despite it having the same effect on its victim.

In game terms, the fact that it takes more magic - or more skilfully applied magic - to kill the great wyrm dragon with magic is represented by its higher saves.

So to make a spell capable of killing a rabbit, you make the effect "kills victim" and the save DC 9.

To make a spell capable of killing an able-bodied man, you make the effect "kills victim" and the save DC 12.

And to make a spell capable of bringing down a great wyrm, you need the effect "kills victim" and the save DC a lot higher.

How does that sound?

Doing something to a stronger opponent has to be a greater task than doing the same thing to a weaker one, and we represent being able to put a given effect on a stronger opponent by increasing the DC of the save.

The scaling difficulty of a task to bring down progressively tougher opponents is already represented by the increased resilience of that opponent in the form of SR, saves, AC, and HP as you've said. Why it is necessary that we need to complicate things by featuring an ICly questionable mechanism of compromising power for penetration? Under my system, if you want to SoD a tougher opponent, just invest more SP in the SoD seed in a way that actually makes it more powerful.


Concerning the Secrets, I really don't think it's necessary to have different level keyed tiers. Soft methods like SP costs should be the balancing agent for more powerful secrets.

lesser_minion
2009-12-15, 02:43 PM
The scaling difficulty of a task to bring down progressively tougher opponents is already represented by the increased resilience of that opponent in the form of SR, saves, AC, and HP as you've said. Why it is necessary that we need to complicate things by featuring an ICly questionable mechanism of compromising power for penetration? Under my system, if you want to SoD a tougher opponent, just invest more SP in the SoD seed in a way that actually makes it more powerful.
.

The point is that the power of an effect should take into account how 'major' a creature it can effect - its saves and hitpoints.

If you want to harm something which is more resilient, you need a bigger version of the same thing.

How on earth is this confusing?

The basic cost of a fatigue effect might be three points. Multiply it by the DC increase you want, so the amount of power needed to tire an able-bodied character might be 9 points, and you might need 15 points to tire a horse.

The amount of power you might need to kill an able-bodied person is likely to be 15 points - the surge of necromantic energy that kills the man is only strong enough to exhaust the horse.

Milskidasith
2009-12-15, 02:43 PM
There shouldn't be any balance issues or anything like that.

Hahahahahaha, that's... you aren't joking? Seriously, there isn't much in the game that guarantees damage (besides AoE attacks).

Melee characters have to make attack rolls.

Why shouldn't spellcasters have something besides just HP blocking them?

Surrealistik
2009-12-15, 02:49 PM
The point is that the power of an effect should take into account how large a creature it can effect - its saves and hitpoints.

Which makes it perfectly reasonable to have SoL effects work in the way I described.

Yes, and the more power you invest into a spell with that effect, the stronger and more overwhelming it becomes to the point where it can devastate a Wyrm. What you are proposing is a sort of double jeopardy; difficulty scaling is already factored in via target stats. It does not need to be accounted for twice.

lesser_minion
2009-12-15, 02:51 PM
Hahahahahaha, that's... you aren't joking? Seriously, there isn't much in the game that guarantees damage (besides AoE attacks).

Melee characters have to make attack rolls.

Why shouldn't spellcasters have something besides just HP blocking them?

It depends on the spellcaster. For a sorceror, I'd suggest imposing touch attacks and noting separately that evasion applies. For a more limited caster, it doesn't seem like an issue, however.


Yes, and the more power you invest into a spell with that effect, the stronger and more overwhelming it becomes to the point where it can devastate a Wyrm. What you are proposing is a sort of double jeopardy; difficulty scaling is already factored in via target stats. It does not need to be accounted for twice.

What?

No. It takes a more powerful effect to regularly flatten a dragon than it does to flatten a rabbit.

You might only need one point to flatten the rabbit - you don't need to increase the DC at all.

However, increasing the DC is how you invest enough juice into a particular effect to apply that effect to something larger.

Any given effect at any given level of power is less likely to work the more powerful its target is. As represented by the target having higher saves.

So, if you want an effect to work better against bigger or tougher oppoents, you take it and jack up the power level.

There is no good reason for an attack that kills to be harder to resist than an attack that fatigues.

It is, however, quite intuitive for an attack that kills an able-bodied man to be more expensive than an attack that fatigues the same able-bodied man.

Milskidasith
2009-12-15, 02:54 PM
It depends on the spellcaster. For a sorceror, I'd suggest imposing touch attacks and noting separately that evasion applies. For a more limited caster, it doesn't seem like an issue, however.

Wait... a touch attack with evasion is actually more layers of defense than normal for a touch attack spell. I don't think you know what you are trying to do. At first you say it should just be pure HP damage (with evasion allowing a save), but now you say it should be a RTA with evasion and then possibly deal damage (compared to a RTA just deals damage attack).

lesser_minion
2009-12-15, 03:20 PM
Wait... a touch attack with evasion is actually more layers of defense than normal for a touch attack spell. I don't think you know what you are trying to do. At first you say it should just be pure HP damage (with evasion allowing a save), but now you say it should be a RTA with evasion and then possibly deal damage (compared to a RTA just deals damage attack).

The defence everyone gets against direct damage is hitpoints, in the same way that the defence everyone gets against having their life essence snuffed out directly is their fortitude save.

This next bit is very abstract - no fluff arguments are accepted:

Everyone can also apply an extra defence against something that can be used at-will - this fact that something is not restricted in how often it can be used can be balanced by making it less likely to work when it is used.

That's how the fighter should be balanced against the wizard (in general), even if he is slinging out comparable effects without any daily limit: the wizard doesn't roll to hit.

There probably should be things that break this mould, but in general, that should make sense. From a balance perspective, at least.

I've revised my earlier post so that this hopefully makes more sense.

The issue is 'common defences'. Evasion is not available to everything.

Note that I actually posted this suggestion in the wrong place - it should really have been in the main d20r thread.

Again, I'm an idiot and I'm posting while tired.

afroakuma
2009-12-15, 03:26 PM
Sort of lost the thread or the thread with the debate above, but I felt I'd pop in with 2 cents on the class.

An idea I had was that points spent on secrets are expended for the day. Obviously, they also need to have their costs raised, but it allows for the flexibility of conventional spellweaving along with an investment of real power when you need to pull off a bigger effect.

Milskidasith
2009-12-15, 03:28 PM
The defence everyone gets against direct damage is hitpoints, in the same way that the defence everyone gets against having their life essence snuffed out directly is their fortitude save.

That doesn't change that you are flip-flopping your position between requiring a ranged touch attack (more defenses than the fighter has against his HP damage because of evasion), and not having a touch attack or save except for evasion (less defenses).


Everyone can also apply an extra defence against something that can be used at-will - this fact that something is not restricted in how often it can be used can be balanced by making it less likely to work when it is used.

Then why are you suggesting sorcerers get no save, no attack spells?


That's how the fighter should be balanced against the wizard (in general), even if he is slinging out comparable effects without any daily limit: the wizard doesn't roll to hit.


The sorcerer has unlimited uses. Why should he have no defenses? If you are arguing about the wizard, there is no wizard class in d20r, and there's no point in discussing it in the sorcerer thread.


There probably should be things that break this mould, but in general, that should make sense. From a balance perspective, at least.

No, it doesn't, especially since you are unclear as to whether sorcerers are casting RTA damage spells with evasion applying, or no RTA spells with evasion being the only defense.


I've revised my earlier post so that this hopefully makes more sense.

Instead, post the changes here. Editing posts above you serves no purpose except to muddle the argument for those reading later.


The issue is 'common defences'. Evasion is not available to everything.

Then why did you suggest the sorcerer get no save no attack damage?

Look, of all the things in 3.5, the general "this uses an attack roll, this uses a save" is both fundamental and, more importantly, not broken. You are solving a non-problem by providing a complicated and imbalanced solution, and then claiming that since it somehow makes fighters and sorcerers equal (how, I have no clue, since you don't support your point), to fix something that isn't broken.

lesser_minion
2009-12-15, 03:48 PM
Look, of all the things in 3.5, the general "this uses an attack roll, this uses a save" is both fundamental and, more importantly, not broken. You are solving a non-problem by providing a complicated and imbalanced solution, and then claiming that since it somehow makes fighters and sorcerers equal (how, I have no clue, since you don't support your point), to fix something that isn't broken.

Here is the problem I am trying to solve: "Direct Damage sucks compared with Save-or-go-to-jail-do-not-pass-go-do-not-collect-£200". This isn't a non-problem at all.

My point is that hitpoints are a defence, and furthermore, the general rule for offensive effects in the game could then be considered as "one defence for restricted-use, two for unlimited".

The idea is that wizard spells that only deal damage suck because you effectively get to stack two different defences against them - they have no effect unless the target fails to defend (by running out of hitpoints). Since your hitpoints act as a saving throw, there might not be any need to allow a second one, unless the 'hitpoint save' is blatantly fake, or you would like to balance out some other factor - for example, being able to do this all day.

This also gives them a niche compared with simple SoLs. The simple SoLs have the advantage that many creatures are vulnerable to one of the three different types. The damage effects have the advantage that the most important defence against them is easily eroded.

AC is also a defence, but fighters can keep swinging their sword all day (what they can do should be equal to what a wizard can do, because while they can keep going all day, wizards don't have to roll to hit).

To apply this principle to the sorcerer, most of their effects can be things like "Reflex Save + Damage" or "RTA + Fort SoD". For the wizard, their comparable effects would be "Damage, 4/day" and "Fort SoD, 4/day".

thegurullamen
2009-12-15, 04:56 PM
Sort of lost the thread or the thread with the debate above, but I felt I'd pop in with 2 cents on the class.

An idea I had was that points spent on secrets are expended for the day. Obviously, they also need to have their costs raised, but it allows for the flexibility of conventional spellweaving along with an investment of real power when you need to pull off a bigger effect.

I think you'd have to buff the secrets, then. Burning SP for a one-off effect should have an enormous effect unlike most of the secrets we have now. After all, you're trading off a lot of future versatility (within the same day) for an effect that either a) might not go off/hit its target or b) isn't worth the hefty trade off. Also, this opens up a whole new definition of nova-ing.


With the Fire Seed, I think there needs to be a Fire Shield base effect, and possibly a few other things, such as controlling a fire.

I'll see what I can do about making things run a little more smoothly though. Were there any particular reasons why you felt it was a bit inelegant?

Mostly just the effects. It's all very warlock-y at the moment. Just a bunch of blast effects without much else. Like Lappy said, it lacks versatility. Adding a control fire and fire shield effect (and maybe one or two others) would help.

Darkkwalker
2009-12-15, 06:07 PM
Put my two cents in as well.

Surrealistik is completely right.
difficulty of killing things and their ability to resist said killing is represented in the fact that the creatures have higher saves and are thus more powerful themselves.

However, I think it should be said that both passive and active DC scaling should both have a place. I mean, the mechanics fundamentally represent different things, so why not.
I mean, increase penetration at the sacrifice of power makes sense, when it isn't a damage spell.
And when it is a damage spell, the more power you pump into damage, the harder it is to avoid the damage.

It's akin to making a knife sharper, using more knives, or getting a bigger knife.
The first representing lesser_minion's view, and the latter two representing surrealistik's.

And that's my thoughts. Both are viable, and should be included, but probably for different spells/seeds.

thegurullamen
2009-12-16, 12:16 AM
I updated the protoseed and got to thinking: should we just do away with shape seeds and make them secrets? Buying a shape limits your options instead of increasing them; instead of new toys to play with, you gain an impressively limited number of ways to play with the old ones. By making them secrets, you can still buy them, but it doesn't cost you seed versatility.

Second, it removes unwanted effects like Sphere Force +11 weapons on all of your friends.

If we do end up making them secrets (like I believe they originally were), it's probably best not to have the seeds share them like originally planned. For example, having the Fire-Sphere secret wouldn't carry over to the Acid seed even if the Acid seed could be augmented with the Sphere secret.

Draz74
2009-12-16, 12:26 AM
I updated the protoseed and got to thinking: should we just do away with shape seeds and make them secrets? Buying a shape limits your options instead of increasing them; instead of new toys to play with, you gain an impressively limited number of ways to play with the old ones. By making them secrets, you can still buy them, but it doesn't cost you seed versatility.

Second, it removes unwanted effects like Sphere Force +11 weapons on all of your friends.

If we do end up making them secrets (like I believe they originally were), it's probably best not to have the seeds share them like originally planned. For example, having the Fire-Sphere secret wouldn't carry over to the Acid seed even if the Acid seed could be augmented with the Sphere secret.

I approve of this idea except for the final paragraph.

absolmorph
2009-12-16, 12:39 AM
Or access to the shapes could be a progression of some sort, although that would make things more complicated for leveling.
Having the shapes be secrets seems a bit... rough. It reduces the amount you can play with your spells if you pick different shapes for some seeds. There are only 6 secrets at the moment. If you make shapes secrets, then you lose the ability to get extra bonuses for the spells (i.e. Lingering, Allied, Discriminating, etc.) that are pretty significant.

thegurullamen
2009-12-16, 02:21 AM
Or access to the shapes could be a progression of some sort, although that would make things more complicated for leveling.
Having the shapes be secrets seems a bit... rough. It reduces the amount you can play with your spells if you pick different shapes for some seeds. There are only 6 secrets at the moment. If you make shapes secrets, then you lose the ability to get extra bonuses for the spells (i.e. Lingering, Allied, Discriminating, etc.) that are pretty significant.

Well, my argument on the situation was to have all Secrets known once you get a seed's Secret. (Whereas Mystery augments have to be chosen individually.) That preserves the versatility of your chosen specialty (an important feature, I believe) and adds a level of built-in balance. Since we can choose what seeds do from the start, the mix-and-match chaos that comes later should be less broken [in theory].

As for the progression, we could either:

a) give Sorcs a shape progression, ie unlock sphere at level 11, line at level 8, etc. and let them do what they want with it
--OR--
b) give applicable seeds certain low-level shapes like small cones or 10x10 squares as Base augments (everyone gets them) and leave the better shapes as Secrets or even Mystery augments (para specialists only.) Once again, this preserves a modicum of balance and differentiates specialicists in a meaningful way.

Guess which I support?

lesser_minion
2009-12-16, 09:18 AM
There are a few seeds where I would like to allow the seeds to couple - for example, a Warding seed that could have an effect tied to it. However, I ended up giving the seed a 'spell container' effect instead.

I've added a new shape for this seed, and a recovery time. The 'Boundary' shape is explained below.

Note that the normal save DC for a spell is 10 + magnitude + charisma bonus.


Warding

Sorcerer Seed

Base Cost: 2 per magnitude

Base Effects:

The following effects have a shape of Boundary and a duration measured in hours:

Prevent all beings with a specific supernatural type from entering or leaving the warded area. An affected creature may attempt to cross the boundary with a Will save, which may be attempted once per hour. Once a creature succeeds in passing crossing the boundary of the spell. Supernatural creature types are as follows: Avatar, Outsider, Construct, Undead, Aberration, Elemental, Fey, and Magical Beast.
Convert the warded area into a spell container. Effects bound to the warded area are applied to anyone who enters. As long as you are within the warded area, you may choose who is affected and who isn't as a free action. Instantaneous effects apply once per round, and effects requiring an attack roll have an attack bonus equal to the spell's magnitude plus your charisma modifier.
Deaden magic within the warded area. Supernatural effects within the warded area do not function, but the ward shatters immediately if any attempt is made


Attunement Effect: You instinctively know when you are within an area warded by any kind of abjuration effect. As a standard action, you can also learn the full details of that effect - this requires a spellcraft check, with a DC equal to 15 + effect magnitude.

The augments for this seed are still WIP.

Possible Augments:
Co-operative: Another caster may bind spells to the warded area, provided they are your ally, both of you are within the warded area, and you have applied the relevant effect. Free - probably a secret.
Persistent: Your commitment to this spell continues even if you are incapacitated or out of range. 3 SP.
Protecting: You may forbid any creature the area is warded against from employing ranged attacks or magic across the boundary. The creature must make a will save each time it attempts to do so, or it is forced to do otherwise. 5 SP.

Special: A creature that would be prevented from entering the warded area which succeeds on its will save may enter and leave the warded area freely until the effect is repaired.

This doesn't really feel like the magnitude system is working as well as I'd hoped, but if anyone has any comments on how this seed works, they would be appreciated.

Also, notes on Containers:

Containers: A container effect can have additional effects woven into it once created. None of these effects can have a magnitude greater than that of the container.

Spells woven into a container take effect as explained in the description of the container effect. Effects woven into a container by a spellweaver cost one point per magnitude less than normal.

Boundary Shape: A spell with this shape projects a shell of magic which extends to the edges of a previously defined boundary, the entirety of which must be in range of you as you cast the spell.

Such a boundary may described by marking it on the ground using any means desired. If there are any walls, pre-existing marks, or defined edges such as those of a clearing or body of water present, you may include these as part of the spell's boundary without marking them.

I've also revised part of my proposal. Seeds should now have a duration which reflects how long their effects persist after the sorcerer ends her commitment to the spell.

As a possible idea, I've also added an 'attunement effect', which lets the sorceror sense things related to the seed. For example, a 'Holy' seed might allow you to use Detect Good (NOT Evil), and the Fire seed might allow you to detect nearby fires, fire creatures, and fire effects.

In general, an attunement effect is no action - you can just use it, in the same way as you see things, hear things etc. Generally, you must concentrate to get more information, and not all of the effects actually give you the "you just know" bonus.

Also, my proposal for spellweaving itself:

A sorceror has a pool of spellweave points equal to (whatever)
A sorceror may craft a spell as a standard action.
The total magnitude of all effects included in a spell may not be greater than the sorcerer's spellweave level. Once this limit is reached, the sorcerer must purchase augments.
The save DC for a spellweave effect is equal to 10 + magnitude + charisma modifier.
As a swift action, a sorceror may concentrate to maintain all spellweave effects she produced and which are within range of her.
A spell persists for its stated duration once the sorcerer stops maintaining it. She may not resume maintaining a spell once she has stopped doing so.
As a full-round action which provokes attacks of opportunity, a sorceror may recover any expended SP. She does not regain the cost of any effects she is currently maintaining, but she may stop maintaining an effect as a free action if she wishes.
Durations. Durations should generally be listed in terms of 'rounds', 'minutes', 'ten-minute blocks', 'hours', 'days' and so on. In all cases, the spell persists for a number of cycles equal to its magnitude once the sorceror stops maintaining it. If no duration is stated, the spell ends at the end of the following round, once the sorceror stops maintaining it. Effects with a duration of 'instantaneous' cannot be maintained - the effect is applied immediately and then the magic that created it fades.


SP pool size and maximum magnitude can probably both be put in a table. I'm not totally sure what the numbers will be for either.

A spell with more than one base effect will simply use the total base cost for all of them, possibly with a discount.

Note: under those rules, most effects should just end the same round the sorceror stops maintaining them. Even some blasts could work this way - for example, the basic "burn people" effect of the Fire Seed could be "lash out with searing flames at a single enemy, dealing d6 damage per magnitude as a ranged touch attack. While you continue to maintain this spell, you may repeat this as an attack action".

I am really not looking forward to working out the interaction rules between seeds, although for now I'd suggest simply tying the save to the shape and requiring every effect to have the same shape. It's less flexible, but it's also a lot less messing around with precedence, and also kills triple save-or-dies dead.

At the moment, I think tacking a surcharge onto a seed for a different shape is the way forward. It's less flexible, but I agree that it probably works best.

Each effect has its own duration, which is tracked separately.

That should make things a lot simpler, and I don't think it excludes too many of the sensible combinations. You do lose (cold + acid) and (cold + sonic), but (cold + lightning) and (cold + fire) don't make much sense to me (the flames or the crackling electricity would have to be cosmetic).

Together, that should pretty brutally murder any kind of "let's shop around for a tonne of different SoD effects".

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-16, 04:00 PM
I updated the protoseed and got to thinking: should we just do away with shape seeds and make them secrets? Buying a shape limits your options instead of increasing them; instead of new toys to play with, you gain an impressively limited number of ways to play with the old ones. By making them secrets, you can still buy them, but it doesn't cost you seed versatility.

Second, it removes unwanted effects like Sphere Force +11 weapons on all of your friends. I agree with this 100%


If we do end up making them secrets (like I believe they originally were), it's probably best not to have the seeds share them like originally planned. For example, having the Fire-Sphere secret wouldn't carry over to the Acid seed even if the Acid seed could be augmented with the Sphere secret.

I disagree with this 100%

Consider Warlocks. They can get Blast Shape Inovcations to alter how they can throw stuff around. Sorcerer equivalent? Secrets. Works perfectly for me. Since you don't give Seeds with things you don't want to AE the Secret for making them AE, they won't be able to be abused like that.


I've also revised part of my proposal. Seeds should now have a duration which reflects how long their effects persist after the sorcerer ends her commitment to the spell.

Yes! Reduce confusion by specifically defining durations!

lesser_minion
2009-12-16, 04:18 PM
Yes! Reduce confusion by specifically defining durations!

I've changed it so that a sorceror can maintain as many effects as he likes as a swift action, at the cost of not being able to get his SP back. I've also moved everything to something closer to a per-encounter mechanic, with the option to recover with a full-round action. I'm still not sure how many SP to give them if we go down this route though.

The durations are all basically how long the effect persists once the sorceror decides to get those points back - for most effects, the sorcerer maintains them as a swift action and they end when she stops.

As for the secrets thing - at the moment we're looking at having things work along the lines of Fax's description of a sorcerer learning more about the inner workings of one specific seed. You pick one seed you already know and you get a few extra effects for it.

It's more likely that a sorcerer will just be able to change the shape of a seed from the start, I think.

I could work out an alternative to that, but I'm currently trying to make my original suggestion into something a little bit nicer. At the moment I'm pretty sure it's an OK idea but it still sounds horrible.


I think a shape progression might be fairly interesting, even if the shapes are tied to the saving throw type (see my previous post). This assumes that each seed will have a list of possible shapes.

Unfortunately, that could potentially lead to having six extra columns - SP pool, maximum magnitude, shapes known, seeds known, secrets known, and mysteries known. It could work, but it might get confusing.

Would it be worth putting together some kind of working group to bring all of the seeds back into shape and work out exactly what the format will be?

By the way, while I still think having every effect have the same magnitude should work well, it might be worth allowing different base effects to have different base costs.

thegurullamen
2009-12-16, 05:24 PM
Unfortunately, that could potentially lead to having six extra columns - SP pool, maximum magnitude, shapes known, seeds known, secrets known, and mysteries known. It could work, but it might get confusing.

Would it be worth putting together some kind of working group to bring all of the seeds back into shape and work out exactly what the format will be?

Yeah, I think we're definitely encroaching on Sorc Calculus areas here. If we go back to sqaure 1.75 or so, I suggest we start re-fiddling with the most basic seeds (energies, elements plus some of the more basic sounding ones like Force, Shadow and, um, etc.) then go from there. We can work our way back to the more abstract and thematically different ones once we have the core ideas cemented back into place.

Anyone want to form a brainstorming post/Wave?

Surrealistik
2009-12-16, 05:25 PM
What?

No. It takes a more powerful effect to regularly flatten a dragon than it does to flatten a rabbit.

You might only need one point to flatten the rabbit - you don't need to increase the DC at all.

However, increasing the DC is how you invest enough juice into a particular effect to apply that effect to something larger.

Any given effect at any given level of power is less likely to work the more powerful its target is. As represented by the target having higher saves.

So, if you want an effect to work better against bigger or tougher oppoents, you take it and jack up the power level.

Yes, jack up the spell's overall power level with SP fine, and that's exactly what I want, but forcing players to specifically invest spell power into DC at the exclusion of all else is unnecessary and complicating.



There is no good reason for an attack that kills to be harder to resist than an attack that fatigues.

It is, however, quite intuitive for an attack that kills an able-bodied man to be more expensive than an attack that fatigues the same able-bodied man.

There is; generally such an attack has more power invested in it which as repeatedly stated, overwhelms defenses.

Agreed on the latter, and again that's what I'm going for. More powerful spells with more powerful effects cost more, and DC scales passively with that cost.


Also, what's this magnitude concept about?


Again, for Secrets KISS is best and should work as follows:


A: Secrets are powerful Seed abilities not normally available.

B: Use of a Secret is keyed only to its SP cost. There are no hard level prerequisites for them.

C: You can purchase a total amount of Secrets of your choice at the time of spellcrafting from a given Seed equal to the number of Secrets you've learned for it; Secrets learned aren't specifically set. For example, if we have X Y Z Secret for the Fire Seed, and we know two Secrets for it, at the time of Spellweaving, we can purchase no more than two of those Secrets in any combination (XY,ZY,XZ).

lesser_minion
2009-12-16, 06:04 PM
With secrets, I've suggested implementing KISS by just having players pick a seed and learn its secrets - basically, they work exactly how Fax's fluff for them says they work.

Being able to customise seeds from there would be cool, but I've already suggested also giving the wizard some kind of customisation mechanic.

Magnitude is the sorcerer's equivalent to spell level:

Effect cost = base cost x magnitude (it is actually incredibly tempting just to have everything cost one SP per magnitude, however).

Save DC = 10 + magnitude + charisma bonus

Maximum magnitude = as listed in a table, but I'm toying with having this be the maximum total number of magnitudes you can apply to the effect. It might not be necessary to do that, however.


Generally, blasts will deal a number of damage dice equal to their magnitude, but one of my ideas was to actually have blasty effects grant the sorcerer an attack she can use for the spell's duration - instead of "cast spell to make fiery explosion", it's "activate seed, lash out at your enemies with bolts of flame for as long as you want."

It takes a free action to maintain effects (basically, you must be able to act), and most effects end the instant you stop maintaining them.

Each seed has a number of basic effects, and a number of ways those effects may be augmented. Some base effects and some augments require you to know the seed's Secret before you may use them.


If we run on the revisions I just suggested, the procedure for weaving a spell is now:

Pick a primary effect, from any seed you know.
Buy as many magnitudes as desired, for one SP each, up to half your spellweaver level +1.
Decide whether or not you want to buy any augments.
If you would like to buy a secondary effect, you may do so. Each secondary effect has two fewer magnitudes than the primary effect.
Buy any augments for your secondary effect.
Repeat steps 4 and 5 until you have as many secondary effects as you want or can afford.



The seed format would then be:

Seed Name

Common Seed - [descriptors]

Fundamental Shape: The standard shape for the seed.
Fundamental Save: The default saving throw type for the seed.

Effects:


Effect name: Effect description (Shape, Duration, Save)
Effect name: Effect description (Shape, Duration, Save). This effect requires the (Blank) Secret
Cost: Augment Description
Cost: Augment Description. This augment requires the (Blank) Secret

Detect: If we're going with this idea, here are the rules for what you can detect using this secret.

Information: Rules information pertaining to the seed.

Notes: Design information - a summary of the permitted shapes, secrets, and anything else worth sharing. For now, you can add a short paragraph if you wish.


If no duration is stated, then the duration is instantaneous. Don't list a duration, shape, or save for an effect unless it is different to the default (either it has a duration other than instantaneous, or it has a shape or save other than the seed's fudamental one).

You can also add a fluffy name in front of each effect if you wish - for examples, see the Warding seed. These also provide a useful way to refer to each effect.

Example:

Warding

Common seed [Abjuration]

Fundamental Shape: Area

Fundamental Saving Throw: Will Negates

Effects:


The Boundary: Prevent one specific type of supernatural creatures from crossing the boundary of the warded area unless it succeeds on a saving throw. It may attempt to cross the warded area once every ten minutes (Duration measured in hours).
3 points: Forbid the affected creatures from employing ranged attacks or special abilities across the boundary of the spell, unless they make a saving throw. 2 points: The veil within the warded area also becomes part of the spell's boundary, blocking dimensional travel into or out of the warded area by affected creatures.
The Guardian: Convert the warded area into a spell container which can hold an additional effect of equal magnitude to this spell and apply it to those within the warded area. If the effect takes the form of an attack, then those affected must make a Reflex save once per round or be hit by the attack (Duration measured in minutes; no saving throw).
2 Points: While you are within the warded area, you may choose to exclude either your allies or your enemies from the effect.
2 Points: You may set conditions on the effect. These conditions may make use of the detection effects of seeds you know, and the senses of sight and hearing. Please refer to the general guidelines on conditional effects.
The Denial: Deaden magic within the warded area, preventing magical effects with a magnitude smaller than that of this spell from being used (Duration measured in rounds; no saving throw). This effect requires the Denial secret.


Detection: You are automatically aware of any active abjuration or similar effect within your spell range. By concentrating, you may determine the full effects of such an effect with a spellcraft check, DC 15 + effect magnitude.

Information: For the purposes of this seed, the veil is the metaphysical barrier between planes that exists in a particular place.

The supernatural creature types are: Avatar, Aberration, Construct, Elemental, Fey, Magical Beast, Outsider, and Undead.

Notes: No alternative shapes. Includes the Forbidding, Discriminating, Conditional, and Denial secrets.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-16, 06:56 PM
I've changed it so that a sorceror can maintain as many effects as he likes as a swift action, at the cost of not being able to get his SP back. I've also moved everything to something closer to a per-encounter mechanic, with the option to recover with a full-round action. I'm still not sure how many SP to give them if we go down this route though.

Not sure if I like this... I much prefer the per round thing, kinda like a vastly more flexible Warlock.