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Realms of Chaos
2009-01-26, 07:57 PM
I don't know why I'm posting this up here but I guess that I had to tell someone about this, lest they fall into the same trap.

I've been running a campaign in a world where demons and devils are a(n unwelcome) fact of everyday life. The bloodwar has spilt over into other planes and most celestials are too busy fighting off intruders to their own planes to deal with the affairs of mortals.

Fittingly, the party has a nice occult flavor, consisting of a LG Archivist, a NG Binder, a LN Hexblade, and a CG Warlock. A bit underwhelming at times but we've all had a great deal of fun with it.

Anyhow, the party recently came across a city almost literally lined with gold. In it, a previously secret cult of Pazuzu (see Fiendish Codex I) has come to prominance, giving out wishes like candy to corrupt the populace. Though reluctant to kill the corrupt public, the party avidly tracked down those who were part of the original cult.

It is important to know that throughout this entire process, the party did not know Pazuzu's name (and none of the players had read the Fiendish Codex 1). All that they knew was that some powerful demon was granting out wishes. I was happy to keep it like that as I didn't know who in the party would want to use Pazuzu.

After killing off the "final" original cult member in the former church of pelor, the Archivist, quite in character, asked to check the church records to see if he could learn more. I told him that the original texts of pelor were still there (to the archivist's relief) but that the newer texts spoke of a new god called Pazuzu who granted the wishes of the layfolk.

I suppose I dropped the bomb here but it made sense to give out his name at the time. The archivist had checked a source that was sure to have Pazuzu's name in it. I considered having the cult not even know Pazuzu's real name but then I remembered that they had to chant it three times whenever they wanted him.:smallredface:

When the archivist reported his findings, the hexblade (our morally ambiguous wildcard) figured that it couldn't hurt to find out how this being could be summoned. Rather than turning to the archivist (who had plenty of divination spells ready), however, he turned to the Warlock (the party face).

One lucky gather information check later (natural 18), the party had all of the information that they needed. After a long and intriguing conversation in-game about the parties' ability (or lack-thereof) to resist the temptations of evil and the pros and cons of power gained from sinister forces, the party eventually agreed to try it.

I suppose that I'm a bit fortunate at this venture. The party decided to try one wish each, even though they could have tried for more. The party hadn't run into a large treasure for awhile so this seemed okay. The Binder wished to hold an extra 1st level vestige each day (I allowed it), the Hexblade wished for wealth (Pazuzu just gave him some jewels he had on hand, as so not to waste a wish), and the warlock wished for an increased charisma score. I decided not to inform anyone that their alignment had changed until it became pertinant later on (though in 20/20 hindsight, telling them may have stopped things right there. Maybe...).

Right as the archivist (who had been taking extensive notes of these events, of course) uttered Pazuzu's name, the party heard a ruckus outside of the church (where they had decided to summon him, quite ironically). As it turns out, the party missed two of the former cult members, members that had whipped the rest of the town into an angry mob.

When the archivist called Pazuzu, I figured that he had detected the archivist's pressence during each of the previous callings and had been waiting to appear for the archivist (who, as a LG character, was the most pure-hearted). As such, he wasted no time showing up.

The rest of the party waited to hear the archivist's wish. I figured that he'd wish for an ancient tome or to stop the riot outside. As it turns out, he had a different wish in mind. Wanting assistance in the upcoming battle, the Archivist wished for a Solar's Simulacrum.

This stunned me and the rest of the players. I intantly opened the rules books and started looking around. As is turns out, imitating a simulacrum is well within the ability of a Wish. Furthermore, casting simulacrum as a spell-like wish overcomes the casting time, xp cost, and material component requirements. Pazuzu's caster level was also high enough to make a solar simulacrum.

I strongly considered screwing up the wish (like a genie) but that seemed to work against Pazuzu's intentions (getting the player to call for him again in the future). I settled on having the simulacrum originally being the guard to a terrible artifact of power, which some evil person would now get their mitts on (evil grin).

Anyways, it took a good 5 minutes to recalculate the Solar's save DCs, Skill points, feats, ability scores, and hit points to account for its halved HD. As our resident rules lawyer (the binder) was fast to point out, however, the Spell-like abilities and Casting abilities of the Solar don't possess any direct corollation to its HD. I overulled him, partially, and took away some of the Solar's spellcasting but the spell-like ability bit did make sense at the time. The party was of a decent level (15) so having the Solar didn't overpower anything too badly

After the huge battle, in which our heroes destroyed a town's entire population (save the children and elderly, who were unable to fight in the first place), the Archivist asked the Solar what it could do. Rather than role-play a description of its abilities, I showed them the Monster Manual and explained what the Solar no longer had.

When the Warlock player learned that the Solar could use Wish as a spell-like ability, an evil smile spread across his face. His exact words (minus the color) to the archivist were "why don't you wish for another one, friend? Devil's Whispers!"

The Archivist rolled terribly on his will save (natural 2) and wished for another Solar Simulacrum (after which he rolled a natural 1 on his second save and beleived it to be his own idea). :smallannoyed:

At this point, I realized where this was going. Each solar simulacrum, due to the way I had calculated them, was perfectly capable of making another solar simulacrum. It took the party only 40 minutes to make 400 simulacrums, after which I realized that the game had been broken.

I collected my stuff, shook each player's hand, and congratulated them on having won a game of DnD.

And thus, Pazuzu broke my game. No candle of invocation. No pun-pun. Just my interpretation of the rules and Pazuzu.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-01-26, 08:06 PM
I don't know why I'm posting this up here but I guess that I had to tell someone about this, lest they fall into the same trap.

I've been running a campaign in a world where demons and devils are a(n unwelcome) fact of everyday life. The bloodwar has spilt over into other planes and most celestials are too busy fighting off intruders to their own planes to deal with the affairs of mortals.

Fittingly, the party has a nice occult flavor, consisting of a LG Archivist, a NG Binder, a LN Hexblade, and a CG Warlock. A bit underwhelming at times but we've all had a great deal of fun with it.

Anyhow, the party recently came across a city almost literally lined with gold. In it, a previously secret cult of Pazuzu (see Fiendish Codex I) has come to prominance, giving out wishes like candy to corrupt the populace. Though reluctant to kill the corrupt public, the party avidly tracked down those who were part of the original cult.

It is important to know that throughout this entire process, the party did not know Pazuzu's name (and none of the players had read the Fiendish Codex 1). All that they knew was that some powerful demon was granting out wishes. I was happy to keep it like that as I didn't know who in the party would want to use Pazuzu.

After killing off the "final" original cult member in the former church of pelor, the Archivist, quite in character, asked to check the church records to see if he could learn more. I told him that the original texts of pelor were still there (to the archivist's relief) but that the newer texts spoke of a new god called Pazuzu who granted the wishes of the layfolk.

I suppose I dropped the bomb here but it made sense to give out his name at the time. The archivist had checked a source that was sure to have Pazuzu's name in it. I considered having the cult not even know Pazuzu's real name but then I remembered that they had to chant it three times whenever they wanted him.:smallredface:

When the archivist reported his findings, the hexblade (our morally ambiguous wildcard) figured that it couldn't hurt to find out how this being could be summoned. Rather than turning to the archivist (who had plenty of divination spells ready), however, he turned to the Warlock (the party face).

One lucky gather information check later (natural 18), the party had all of the information that they needed. After a long and intriguing conversation in-game about the parties' ability (or lack-thereof) to resist the temptations of evil and the pros and cons of power gained from sinister forces, the party eventually agreed to try it.

I suppose that I'm a bit fortunate at this venture. The party decided to try one wish each, even though they could have tried for more. The party hadn't run into a large treasure for awhile so this seemed okay. The Binder wished to hold an extra 1st level vestige each day (I allowed it), the Hexblade wished for wealth (Pazuzu just gave him some jewels he had on hand, as so not to waste a wish), and the warlock wished for an increased charisma score. I decided not to inform anyone that their alignment had changed until it became pertinant later on (though in 20/20 hindsight, telling them may have stopped things right there. Maybe...).

Right as the archivist (who had been taking extensive notes of these events, of course) uttered Pazuzu's name, the party heard a ruckus outside of the church (where they had decided to summon him, quite ironically). As it turns out, the party missed two of the former cult members, members that had whipped the rest of the town into an angry mob.

When the archivist called Pazuzu, I figured that he had detected the archivist's pressence during each of the previous callings and had been waiting to appear for the archivist (who, as a LG character, was the most pure-hearted). As such, he wasted no time showing up.

The rest of the party waited to hear the archivist's wish. I figured that he'd wish for an ancient tome or to stop the riot outside. As it turns out, he had a different wish in mind. Wanting assistance in the upcoming battle, the Archivist wished for a Solar's Simulacrum.

This stunned me and the rest of the players. I intantly opened the rules books and started looking around. As is turns out, imitating a simulacrum is well within the ability of a Wish. Furthermore, casting simulacrum as a spell-like wish overcomes the casting time, xp cost, and material component requirements. Pazuzu's caster level was also high enough to make a solar simulacrum.

I strongly considered screwing up the wish (like a genie) but that seemed to work against Pazuzu's intentions (getting the player to call for him again in the future). I settled on having the simulacrum originally being the guard to a terrible artifact of power, which some evil person would now get their mitts on (evil grin).

Anyways, it took a good 5 minutes to recalculate the Solar's save DCs, Skill points, feats, ability scores, and hit points to account for its halved HD. As our resident rules lawyer (the binder) was fast to point out, however, the Spell-like abilities and Casting abilities of the Solar don't possess any direct corollation to its HD. I overulled him, partially, and took away some of the Solar's spellcasting but the spell-like ability bit did make sense at the time. The party was of a decent level (15) so having the Solar didn't overpower anything too badly

After the huge battle, in which our heroes destroyed a town's entire population (save the children and elderly, who were unable to fight in the first place), the Archivist asked the Solar what it could do. Rather than role-play a description of its abilities, I showed them the Monster Manual and explained what the Solar no longer had.

When the Warlock player learned that the Solar could use Wish as a spell-like ability, an evil smile spread across his face. His exact words (minus the color) to the archivist were "why don't you wish for another one, friend? Devil's Whispers!"

The Archivist rolled terribly on his will save (natural 2) and wished for another Solar Simulacrum (after which he rolled a natural 1 on his second save and beleived it to be his own idea). :smallannoyed:

At this point, I realized where this was going. Each solar simulacrum, due to the way I had calculated them, was perfectly capable of making another solar simulacrum. It took the party only 40 minutes to make 400 simulacrums, after which I realized that the game had been broken.

I collected my stuff, shook each player's hand, and congratulated them on having won a game of DnD.

And thus, Pazuzu broke my game. No candle of invocation. No pun-pun. Just my interpretation of the rules and Pazuzu.

Owch. Wishcheese. Sorry about your game.

Mr.Bookworm
2009-01-26, 08:10 PM
That's a pretty cool story, ignoring the idiotic end, but I'll be blunt.

You should've stopped him right there when he told him to Wish for another Solar Simulacrum. It's well within your power to say the Solar doesn't have Wish, or if he does, that he can't Wish for another Solar.

Rule 0 the heck out of it, is the point. Honestly, if you were going somewhere with the campaign, call up your players, and tell them you screwed up. It's never to late to turn back the clock.

JaxGaret
2009-01-26, 08:10 PM
You should tell your players if their alignment changes immediately.

Also, loop-wishing or loop-gating should never be allowed to work. Otherwise, how the heck is your party the first people to ever figure it out? Think about that for a second - loop-gates and loop-wishes would be spammed left and right by powerful NPCs.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-26, 08:16 PM
I agree with both Mr. Bookworm and JaxGaret.

First, you should always let a player know when their alignment has shifted (perhaps not altogether, but let each one know individually and secretly).

And second, this sounds less like Pazuzu breaking your game, and more like wish-chaining breaking it, which requires the DM to simply step in a say NO. It sounds like you had a pretty fun campaign going, and I'd second Mr. Bookworm's suggestion of calling your players and telling them you screwed up. If you were all still having a blast with the game they shouldn't be against winding back to the first Solar and not getting that army.

Otherwise, very amusing story, and good luck with your next game! :smallsmile:

RTGoodman
2009-01-26, 08:17 PM
Next campaign idea:

The world has fallen into darkness these past 100 years. A cabal of evil adventurers, favored of the demon lord Pazuzu, have influenced the Blood War on the Material Plane so much in that time that demons now have the upper hand and have begun to take over large swaths of the world. Lead by a Lawful Evil Archivist Lich and also featuring a LE Hexblade general, a Binder powerful enough to summon the power of the most powerful vestiges known, and a CE Warlock who channels the very fires of the Abyss (a re-fluffed Hellfire Warlock), these scions of evil are the most feared creatures alive (or undead). Leading an army of warped celestials and slavering demons, they seemingly can't be defeated and won't stop until they control the whole world.

It's into this world that new heroes have been born, and now set out on an adventure that will eventually see them taking a stand and trying to free the world from the grip of Evil.

tyckspoon
2009-01-26, 08:18 PM
Congratulations, your players independently recreated the Gate chain. Since there's not a lot more to say about the story itself, I'll join in the people dissecting it...

If you really wanted to monkeywrench the thing:
At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command where 'you' is the caster of the spell. All those Solars were bound only to the immediate prior Solar simulacra, just like what happens in a Shadow spawn chain. And who cast that very first Wish to make the first one...? Yup. Pazuzu. Your players had no direct control over those hundreds of imitation angels.

Rei_Jin
2009-01-26, 08:21 PM
I'd actually be more inclined to see one of the gods send an Aleax up against the Archivist. Once the Archivist is dead, all the solars are released to their own will.

Hence, the game is not over. The Archivist gets bumped down a notch for daring to try and control the fates themselves, and the other players learn a valuable lesson.

ericgrau
2009-01-26, 08:23 PM
Shouldn't the new solars be half the level of the solars that made them? Unless they go to the original solar and duplicate that solar.

And you let the simulacrum solar have wish? A simulacrum with HD is supposed to have special abilities that match his halved HD. I dunno what that'd leave for an 11 HD solar, but I bet it wouldn't be anything with a caster level over 10-11.

But even assuming infinite loop cheese is valid, and for some strange reason Pazuzu didn't try it first, there is always rule 0 as everyone mentioned.

Killersquid
2009-01-26, 08:23 PM
Congratulations, your players independently recreated the Gate chain. Since there's not a lot more to say about the story itself, I'll join in the people dissecting it...

If you really wanted to monkeywrench the thing: where 'you' is the caster of the spell. All those Solars were bound only to the immediate prior Solar simulacra, just like what happens in a Shadow spawn chain. And who cast that very first Wish to make the first one...? Yup. Pazuzu. Your players had no direct control over those hundreds of imitation angels.

THIS THIS! DO THIS! Do another game with them, expect it, and whip this out.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-26, 08:26 PM
Next campaign idea:

The world has fallen into darkness these past 100 years. A cabal of evil adventurers, favored of the demon lord Pazuzu, have influenced the Blood War on the Material Plane so much in that time that demons now have the upper hand and have begun to take over large swaths of the world. Lead by a Lawful Evil Archivist Lich and also featuring a LE Hexblade general, a Binder powerful enough to summon the power of the most powerful vestiges known, and a CE Warlock who channels the very fires of the Abyss (a re-fluffed Hellfire Warlock), these scions of evil are the most feared creatures alive (or undead). Leading an army of warped celestials and slavering demons, they seemingly can't be defeated and won't stop until they control the whole world.

It's into this world that new heroes have been born, and now set out on an adventure that will eventually see them taking a stand and trying to free the world from the grip of Evil.

Hammer meets nail head. rtg's got it perfect.

JeminiZero
2009-01-26, 09:54 PM
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Heliomance
2009-01-27, 02:08 AM
I agree with both Mr. Bookworm and JaxGaret.

First, you should always let a player know when their alignment has shifted (perhaps not altogether, but let each one know individually and secretly).


Not necessarily. Campaign I'm in, the Paladin s the only one that knows his alignment for sure. None of the rest of us know. We just play the characters as we envisage them, and the DM decides how we've been playing whenit comes to mechanical effects like unholy weapons.

Draz74
2009-01-27, 02:10 AM
Not necessarily. Campaign I'm in, the Paladin s the only one that knows his alignment for sure. None of the rest of us know. We just play the characters as we envisage them, and the DM decides how we've been playing whenit comes to mechanical effects like unholy weapons.

I think I like that better overall.

TempusCCK
2009-01-27, 02:13 AM
That is the best way.

Icewalker
2009-01-27, 02:13 AM
The whole Pazuzu slowly corrupting the righteous idea is a really fun one to throw on an adventuring party if you do it well. One important thing is not to make it too blunt, ie 'you worked with Pazuzu, therefore you are now less good'. I've always felt that to corrupt people this way, there should actually be some corruption involved (ie, after getting enough help with him, Pazuzu strikes a deal with them instead of giving out a free wish, evil trickery, what have you).

Kris Strife
2009-01-27, 03:31 AM
I thought Pazuzu's first wish doesnt have an alignment change?

bosssmiley
2009-01-27, 05:46 AM
Wanting assistance in the upcoming battle, the Archivist wished for a Solar's Simulacrum.

Why were alarm bells not going off about here please? :smallconfused:


At this point, I realized where this was going. Each solar simulacrum, due to the way I had calculated them, was perfectly capable of making another solar simulacrum. It took the party only 40 minutes to make 400 simulacrums, after which I realized that the game had been broken.

IIRC, something similar was the deus ex machina in an episode of "Dangermouse".
We sometimes use the phrase "...and then say Dangermouse 1,000 times" as shorthand for having spotted Infinite loop cheese in play. :smallamused:


I collected my stuff, shook each player's hand, and congratulated them on having won a game of DnD.

And thus, Pazuzu broke my game. No candle of invocation. No pun-pun. Just my interpretation of the rules and Pazuzu.

Pazuzu didn't break your game: lack of forethought on the part of the DM broke the game.

Wishing for Solar simulacra with full caster levels from a demon lord known for his powers of deception and temptation. Once upon a time the automatic DM response to that kind of munchkinry would have been *sly grin* "Are you sure?" (answer: "No.") Where was the demonic wish twisting and monkey's paw backfire? Where was your plot twist designed to throw the players up to their necks in it? Where was the laughter of the dark gods at the antics of over-clever mortals? Are you a DM or a mouse? :smallconfused:

Well, at least you learned something about infinite loops, wishcheese, and the brokenness of the RAW. Just don't fall for that one again. :smallsigh:

MickJay
2009-01-27, 06:56 AM
Good point about original Solar simulacrum being controlled by Pazuzu (given to aid adventurers, but Pazuzu still "owns" it; if players were told that, they'd think twice about duplicating Solars). Even better point was that the Solar simulacra wouldn't be powerful enough to grant a Wish summoning another Solar simulacrum; players would end up with another Wish, but a non-chainable wish.

And yes, great idea for salvaging the story, rtg0922 :smallsmile:

Darrin
2009-01-27, 08:37 AM
And thus, Pazuzu broke my game. No candle of invocation. No pun-pun. Just my interpretation of the rules and Pazuzu.

Great story. I like rtg's new campaign idea, reminds me a lot of KoDT's "Doomsday Pack" and "Carvin Marvin".

Was there anything worthwhile in Fiendish Codex I? Other than Pazuzu cheese, I never see anyone mention anything in it. No PrCs, and the Abyssal Heritor feats don't appear to be all that great.

Ah, forgot about Embrace the Dark Chaos.

Ok, different question... was there anything worthwhile in Fiendish Codex I that couldn't be horribly broken?

Realms of Chaos
2009-01-27, 09:16 AM
Just invited the players back for another game.

As has been suggested, the Angels are about to start tearing up the world (along with the demons and devils). That idea was brilliant.

As for allowing the wish chain, that's what happens when you've been DMing for 14 hours straight, I guess. I do admit that this was my fault, though. :smallredface:

BobVosh
2009-01-27, 09:45 AM
All sorts of good examples. Personally like the Pazuzu controlled one.

Don't forget the fun of wish. You can ALWAYS mess with wish.

Did they wish for a simulacrum of a Solar, or the spell simulacrum to have been considered cast on the solar, etc.



sim⋅u⋅la⋅crum [sim-yuh-ley-kruhm] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -cra [-kruh] Show IPA Pronunciation . 1. a slight, unreal, or superficial likeness or semblance.
2. an effigy, image, or representation: a simulacrum of Aphrodite

Oh my, they just got a straw man solar. Or better yet some force of heaven pops down seeing what is up with the Solar congregation. Partial fulfillment is always your friend.

Mark Hall
2009-01-27, 01:34 PM
Next campaign idea:

The world has fallen into darkness these past 100 years. A cabal of evil adventurers, favored of the demon lord Pazuzu, have influenced the Blood War on the Material Plane so much in that time that demons now have the upper hand and have begun to take over large swaths of the world. Lead by a Lawful Evil Archivist Lich and also featuring a LE Hexblade general, a Binder powerful enough to summon the power of the most powerful vestiges known, and a CE Warlock who channels the very fires of the Abyss (a re-fluffed Hellfire Warlock), these scions of evil are the most feared creatures alive (or undead). Leading an army of warped celestials and slavering demons, they seemingly can't be defeated and won't stop until they control the whole world.

It's into this world that new heroes have been born, and now set out on an adventure that will eventually see them taking a stand and trying to free the world from the grip of Evil.

I agree with RTG; this sounds like a great opening for the next campaign.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-27, 02:14 PM
Just invited the players back for another game.

As has been suggested, the Angels are about to start tearing up the world (along with the demons and devils). That idea was brilliant.

As for allowing the wish chain, that's what happens when you've been DMing for 14 hours straight, I guess. I do admit that this was my fault, though. :smallredface:

This should be fun! Let us know how it goes! :smallsmile:

Yakk
2009-01-27, 02:16 PM
First, wish is not an appropriate ability for an 11 HD solar. Even wish at caster level 11. :-)

Now, the real trick is that the Solar is an extension of Pazuzu's will. So when you ask for a wish from it, you are actually getting the wish ... from Pazuzu! In essence, the players managed to completely corrupt themselves. And spawn an army of 100 simulated angels.

So yes, now you have an angelic army, and at least some of the original party corrupted to evil...

Start a new campaign with new PCs in this world torn apart by darkness. The old PCs are dead, allied with Pazuzu, or trapped/besieged somewhere...

Starbuck_II
2009-01-27, 02:51 PM
First, wish is not an appropriate ability for an 11 HD solar. Even wish at caster level 11. :-)


Neither should a Golem have Disjunction at CR 11, but there is one with that ability.

Spell-like or supernaturals ignore caster level requirements. So he can totally still use Wish.

Tacoma
2009-01-27, 03:16 PM
My answer is a personal rule that I have, playing or DMing. You can't get more out than you put in.

For example, if you cast a Simulacrum to make a creature, you're putting in a 7th level spell (at least it was 7th in 2E :smallconfused: ) which means you cannot get anything out of that creature that's more powerful than a 7th level spell.

Example 2: Major Creation cannot create pure plutonium because the explosion generated would be more powerful than even a 9th level spell. In fact I'd limit any explosive potential (say, of volatile oils or whatever) to equivalent to a 4th level spell - after all, an explosive 5th level spell can only explode, while Major Creation can explode or create any number of things. The versatility is good enough that to balance it, it can't fully mimic a specialized spell of the same level.

If you have a magic item that makes you money (Bucknard's Everfull Purse, a quiver that creates arrows every day, etc) the value of the item is such that it will take you multiple years to equal that value. "Investing" in the magic item should be on par with investing in a business venture or loaning your money out at about 5% annual interest. So if the purse creates 1 GP per day, it would be worth 7,300 GP because it would create that much money in about 20 years.

And of course this prevents chaining of creation / transmutation / wishing / etc.

I second ending the campaign though and starting a new one with the previous PCs as completely evil followers of Pazuzu. I always give my players the choices they want to make, but I don't pamper them when they make obviously terrible choices - like asking evil gods for wishes.

And Pazuzu is just lame anyway. It's a slap in the face for the PCs. "The evil guys get all the wishes they want, but you can't have any, nyaah nyaah." It's like the DM giving powerful magic items to his monsters but the magic items are all evil and intelligent so the PCs can't use them. I would have expected better from a company that holds the IP.

Yakk
2009-01-27, 04:37 PM
Neither should a Golem have Disjunction at CR 11, but there is one with that ability.

Spell-like or supernaturals ignore caster level requirements. So he can totally still use Wish.
No, I mean that the Simulacrum text tells the DM to reduce the creature's abilities to appropriate levels based on the reduction in HD and levels.

Wish is clearly not appropriate for an 11 HD angel.

On the other hand, the Angel is produced by Pazuzu. Who can produce wishes. So ... Pazuzu empowers the Angel with the ability to relay wish requests to Pazuzu, which is a reasonable power for a level 11 Angel simulacrum. :-)

The side benefit of this is that things happened EXACTLY as described. The wishes happened when they asked the Angel for them -- but it was a Pazuzu wish, as the Angel was a mere extension of Pazuzu's power.

Which meant that the character who made those wishes ended up being utterly corrupted by producing the army.

Hyfigh
2009-01-27, 04:43 PM
How are you calculating the CL for its Sp's? Realistically, you should be cutting those in half, just as you do with everything else. This would mean that the maximum HD/levels their Wish could use Simulacrum with would be 20 (Normal CL 20, halved =10). Solar are a 22HD creature.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-01-27, 05:28 PM
And Pazuzu is just lame anyway. It's a slap in the face for the PCs. "The evil guys get all the wishes they want, but you can't have any, nyaah nyaah." It's like the DM giving powerful magic items to his monsters but the magic items are all evil and intelligent so the PCs can't use them. I would have expected better from a company that holds the IP.

This is not true. Each time you use it, your alignment either switches more evil or more chaotic. If you are chaotic evil and you summon Pazuzu, he will attack you. Fun to use on the players when they are thinking they get infinite wishes :smallbiggrin:.

Realms of Chaos
2009-01-27, 08:47 PM
Hrm...
The bunk that my binder player managed to sell me was that as the Solar's HD (22) did not equal his Caster level (20), the caster level was in no way reliant upon the Solar's hit dice and thus remained unchanged by the power-halving.
Under normal circumstances, I would never buy into that bull****. At 2 in the morning, after far more pizza and mountain dew than can possibly be healthy, I was in anything but a normal state of mind.

There is going to be a mutiny, no doubt about that.:smallamused: However, I am against simply going for a TPK. Instead, I'm going to capitalize on the simulacrum's full compliment of spell-like abilities.
I'm going to kill them all, revive them through the resurrection SLA of the Solars, kill them again, and repeat the cycle 2 or 3 times (with the party losing a level between each cycle).

Luckily, I instituted an interesting homerule awhile back that keeps souls from refusing a viable revival (as insult to injury, it was the party that begged for this rule in the first place to interrogate a spy who had swallowed a poison capsule).

Hell hath no fury like a DM scorned.
He's the one who designs hell anyways.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-27, 08:49 PM
mean vindictive stuff

That... doesn't sound very fun for your players.

Realms of Chaos
2009-01-27, 09:00 PM
hmm...good point.

Any suggestions on how the Solars should abandon the party and start causing mayham?

Anyone?

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-27, 09:20 PM
rtg's idea is ridiculously good. If they're attached to their characters... I'm not sure. Perhaps just give them the Solars? Wish abilities and all? Perhaps while they're using their army of Solars to crush the hemisphere of their choice, subtly remind them (via assassins, perhaps) that they are relatively powerless themselves. Sure, Pazuzu's wishes are tainted... but a Solar's wish wouldn't be, right? So, they give themselves power. And then more power. And... then what? When faced with crazy wish fulfillment, what would your adventurers do?

Invade the Abyss? That's cool with the real boss, let 'em do that. Of course, then they're pretty much serving Pazuzu to get him a bigger piece of the Abyss... while the legions of Hell disengage and redirect their mighty forces upward.

Of course, this totally ruins the prior nature of their campaign. I dunno.

Lochar
2009-01-27, 09:22 PM
As stated. Pazuzu is the governing force of all those Solars.

After the army of 400 is created, Pazuzu thanks the PCs for his army, and goes away with them, leaving the PCs with the riot outside to deal with.

Pazuzu, having successfully gotten a small army of angelic like figures, has them descend on another town/country/the world and start attacking.

People are afraid that heaven has abandoned/is attacking them, and therefore they turn to the powers of Hell, and Pazuzu in particular since he's already there, to protect them.

Bam, Pazuzu is converting the whole world over to him, because the PCs gave him a small army of angelic like beings to work with.

Yakk
2009-01-27, 09:54 PM
nd the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD
Really, the special abilities of a half HD solar should nearly not be as powerful as a full-HD solar. And a Wish with a caster level 11 is too close to a wish with a caster level of 22.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-27, 10:02 PM
Really, the special abilities of a half HD solar should nearly not be as powerful as a full-HD solar. And a Wish with a caster level 11 is too close to a wish with a caster level of 22.

Yes, we've read that already. But... first off, Pazuzu can perfectly well grant those wishes. Second... it's a little late to say the solars can't cast Wish.

JeminiZero
2009-01-27, 10:15 PM
hmm...good point.

Any suggestions on how the Solars should abandon the party and start causing mayham?

Anyone?

As stated previously, the solars gained from the solar's wish are under the control of the initial solar. All you have to do is kill him and the chain of command will be broken.

Have some greater force (maybe an inevitable, although there are other possibilities (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5689601&postcount=80)) show up, claiming that the PCs have upset the balance of all things (this doesn't have to be true, the force can claim any higher principal while secreatly being the minion of something else). The guy than demands that the PCs relinquish their army peacefully, or else he will strike down the initial solar. Have the guy point out to them, that simply striking down the initial would leave the other 399 around, out of control, and possibly angry at the PCs. Whereas if they relinquish peacefully, they will all walk away in one piece.

If they DO refuse, whatever force you sent should preferably BE strong enough to ignore the attacks/spells of 1 PC party and 399 solars, and simply go after initial solar. Once initial solar is down, the guy teleports away, leaving the PCs surrounded by 399 angry and out of control simulcrum solars.

Edit: That, or simply have some assassin quietly kill the solar while no one is watching.

Yakk
2009-01-27, 10:33 PM
Yes, we've read that already. But... first off, Pazuzu can perfectly well grant those wishes. Second... it's a little late to say the solars can't cast Wish.
Sorry -- that was a lagged-out delayed submit. Mea culpa.

chiasaur11
2009-01-27, 11:21 PM
If all else fails, you can clear up the problem with He Who Probably Should Not Be Named For Fear of Derail overdeity of Pazuzu related rule abuse.

But the Solars as an instrument of the power of Hell idea is fun too. Always nice when the players need to clean up their own messes.

Shpadoinkle
2009-01-28, 05:50 AM
Owch. Wishcheese. Sorry about your game.

Do you have any idea how annoying it is when someone quotes a LONG post, only to respond with a single line of text?

Hyfigh
2009-01-28, 09:27 AM
Hrm...
The bunk that my binder player managed to sell me was that as the Solar's HD (22) did not equal his Caster level (20), the caster level was in no way reliant upon the Solar's hit dice and thus remained unchanged by the power-halving.
Under normal circumstances, I would never buy into that bull****. At 2 in the morning, after far more pizza and mountain dew than can possibly be healthy, I was in anything but a normal state of mind.

There is going to be a mutiny, no doubt about that.:smallamused: However, I am against simply going for a TPK. Instead, I'm going to capitalize on the simulacrum's full compliment of spell-like abilities.
I'm going to kill them all, revive them through the resurrection SLA of the Solars, kill them again, and repeat the cycle 2 or 3 times (with the party losing a level between each cycle).

Luckily, I instituted an interesting homerule awhile back that keeps souls from refusing a viable revival (as insult to injury, it was the party that begged for this rule in the first place to interrogate a spy who had swallowed a poison capsule).

Hell hath no fury like a DM scorned.
He's the one who designs hell anyways.

OK, you're going against Simulacrom two fold-


It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can’t create a simulacrum of a creature whose Hit Dice or levels exceed twice your caster level.

Emphasis mine. Spell-like abilities are special abilities. Their caster level on their Spell-likes is independent of their HD. Their special abilities would be cut in half, just as their hit dice. Twice their caster level of 10 would be 20. So no go for another Solar.

Otherwise what you're saying is that you made a house-rule allowing this loophole, the players used that loophole, and now you want to punish them for it...:smallconfused:

Holocron Coder
2009-01-28, 03:20 PM
Emphasis mine. Spell-like abilities are special abilities. Their caster level on their Spell-likes is independent of their HD. Their special abilities would be cut in half, just as their hit dice. Twice their caster level of 10 would be 20. So no go for another Solar.

Otherwise what you're saying is that you made a house-rule allowing this loophole, the players used that loophole, and now you want to punish them for it...:smallconfused:

Maybe I misread, but could have sworn they asked for "another," which I'd read as another solar simulacrum, which is 11HD, which would be in range of the original simulacrum CL10

Hyfigh
2009-01-28, 04:50 PM
I suppose I could be misunderstanding, but it sounds to me like they are using the Sim-Solars to create more Sim-Solars.

Even if they were asking Pazuzu to Simulacrum more Solars they (the players) would soon all be choatic evil, in which case Pazuzu would punish them for their insolence.

I still stand firm that whatever the players had been doing would be able to have been stopped by the rules themselves, without even needing a Rule 0 option.

Yakk
2009-01-28, 05:54 PM
Maybe I misread, but could have sworn they asked for "another," which I'd read as another solar simulacrum, which is 11HD, which would be in range of the original simulacrum CL10
A simulacrum of a simulacrum? That would reduce to uselessness quickly, wouldn't it?

chiasaur11
2009-01-28, 07:18 PM
A simulacrum of a simulacrum? That would reduce to uselessness quickly, wouldn't it?

Somewhat.

I mean, layer twos would still be useful, and you'd have a ton of those made by the first one.

Layer three, even, wouldn't be entirely useless.

Worira
2009-01-28, 07:40 PM
Just retcon it. The simulacrum can't cast wish. If you could chain wishes like that, Pazuzu would already have done so.

Realms of Chaos
2009-01-28, 09:15 PM
Just met for a game session and I think that I sorted everything out nicely.

We restarted time from right after the party ended their battle with the villagers (Although the "angel" doesn't really have a problem with them, the villagers just saw another angel and we all know that Pazuzu doesn't care about his corrupted followers).

As soon as the battle ended, it revealed its true alliegance by casting bestow curse on said archivist before flying away. No endless wish loophole. No TPK. Just a straightforward betrayal.